Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 24 Feb 2003 to 25 Feb 2003 (#2003-57) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 26/02/2003, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 19 messages totalling 705 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Hacklopedia Mystarica: The Guide to the HackWurld of Mystaros (2) 2. Quality of ESDs (2) 3. Hacklopedia Mystarica: The Guide to the HackWurld of Mystaros (2) 4. Hacklopedia Mystarica: The Guide to the HackWurld ofMystaros 5. Marco's Questions (6) 6. Global Interaction 7. Hacklopedia Mystarica: The Guide to the HackWurldof Mystaros 8. New Ierendi 9. Hacklopedia Mystarica - The Guide to the HackWurld of 10. Hacklopedia Mystarica Provisos [Geoff] 11. Hacklopedia Mystarica Provisos (Cthulhudrew) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 07:44:15 -0500 From: Dustin Clingman Subject: Re: Hacklopedia Mystarica: The Guide to the HackWurld of Mystaros My final comments on this discussion...... >> WHY should a person like me, who already owns all previously Mystara related supplements and wants >>to stick to old Mystara setting, buy you Hackwurld of Mystaros (and spend 39 US$ on that)? Because if you support it, you might prove to the publisher that there is a market for Mystara and that they might be able to make their money back on other Mystara products. K&C or some other company (Zeitgeist...et al) might be willing to fork over the licensing cash to put Mystara in 3e if they know that the fans support the world and it's products. Yeah, I know it's Hackmaster and yeah I know it's not serious, BUT you know it's based on Mystara and hence makes it something to at least consider purchasing. To be honest, that's not the best argument, but I do know that I will be watching the sales to see if it would be worth the money to potentially invest in Mystara for other products. I doubt anyone could please you crazy hardcores though. :) Dustin -- Dustin Clingman Zeitgeist Games, Inc. www.zeitgeistgames.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 08:06:54 -0500 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Quality of ESDs > > From: Magister Mystaros > > Or possibly because TSR used to keep their data on an old system which can > no longer be read by any modern system. I'm not sure when they upgraded, but > I've heard from direct sources that TSR didn't upgrade from early > proprietary systems to newer, cross-platform systems until way late in their > history, and they lost a lot of data and stuff in that upgrade. > Is that when they moved from the Apple Lisa to the Macintosh systems, in 1989? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 13:13:47 -0000 From: Colin Davidson Subject: Re: Hacklopedia Mystarica: The Guide to the HackWurld of Mystaros ----- Original Message ----- From: "Magister Mystaros" To: Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 8:14 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Hacklopedia Mystarica: The Guide to the HackWurld of Mystaros > I hope over time to dispel these qualms enough for you to at least pick up > the book and take a good look at it... (^_^) Oh, there's no danger that I wouldn't have a good look at the book. I'm of the old school of roleplayers who like to go to their local game shop and flick through things that are even vaguely interesting. A Mystara related product is clearly something much, much more interesting than that! > < portions of Mystara, linking it to the 'great rain of fire'. Will this mean > that the canon Hackmaster world will incorporate other parody gameworlds?>> > > Yes, the HackMaster world of Aldrazar will incorporate every old D&D game > setting that Kenzer & Company can publish. Which settings they can do, > altogether, I do not know. I have heard talk of Greyhawk/Greyhack, and they > did the adventure Ravenloft/Robinloft, but I'm not sure about the others. Okay... So will that lead to cross-pollination of ideas from one part to the other? How does one then fit in the racial histories of the assorted peoples/demi humans of Mystara? How would you reconcile the presence of such globally important powers as Alphatia having little interraction with regions that would be in the Greyhawk setting? How could the relatively magic-rich setting of Mystara fit in with the somewhat lower magic settings? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 09:52:03 -0500 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Hacklopedia Mystarica: The Guide to the HackWurld of Mystaros > > From: Colin Davidson > > Okay... So will that lead to cross-pollination of ideas from one part to the > other? How does one then fit in the racial histories of the assorted > peoples/demi humans of Mystara? How would you reconcile the presence of such > globally important powers as Alphatia having little interraction with > regions that would be in the Greyhawk setting? How could the relatively > magic-rich setting of Mystara fit in with the somewhat lower magic settings? > That is what makes a Hackmaster game. Elmunchster will fireball any Alphatian that even gazes over Bellasaria to look beyond it's borders into his Forgetable Realms. As well as Mystaros can patch into the NOS and vaporize any potential Spelljammers circling over the Savage Coast. Mystaros, can you hit a couple of them Harpers for me with that thing? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 08:29:58 -0800 From: Joe Kelly Subject: Re: Hacklopedia Mystarica: The Guide to the HackWurld ofMystaros I'm not worried about any changing of Mystara at all Mystaros. Good on = ya'. Hell I've altered my Mystara big time. I have Scro, Drow, and Elric = of Melnibone (shadowelves) added to my campaign. So What you propose to do = is, as I see it, a few flavor enhancements. By the way, the Davania IMC is = one nation under the Elven Empire which has a fleet of some 2,000+ ships. = Looking forward to your product.=20 :) JK Wolf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 11:41:15 -0500 From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Marco's Questions On Mon, 24 Feb 2003, Magister Mystaros wrote: > to happen. If it could be done, I would already have been working on it. We > all know each other, that is, all the old fans of Mystara, and I don't know > of any of us that has an extra $30,000 sitting around. Well, Not to toot our own horns, but the ever Chaotic Good group over at Jenni's Mystara 3e group has been discussing things for a good while now, and will have web published things quite soon, as soon as our bickering over the cosmology has died down to acceptible levels. And, let me tell you, had I $50k lying around, I'd buy the damn license myself :D Ethan -- Kinard 210 Linux Guru Webmaster www.steelangel.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 12:08:16 -0500 From: Dustin Clingman Subject: Re: Marco's Questions Ethan, It's a pricey biz. If buying the license is $50K, you need another $20K depending on the amount of books you printed, then you also have to pay people to write(That might be free for you), illustrate, edit and proofread and then the layout. If the book is anywhere near the common Sovereign Stone books or others, you would be looking at about another $8-10K for those things. So we are at $80K just to put the book into print. Then you have to advertise and promote the book. Those costs can go as high as you want, but let's just say you spent as much as $10K on promotion. Now we have an estimate of $90K cash in hand to get the book out the door and let people know about it. If you sell the book for a retail price of $35, you will probably be able to sell it at a wholesale rate of around $12-14 per copy depending on the size of the print run. That means that the first 7500 books go to covering your base costs before you make a single penny of profit. And this of course doesn't cover legal expenses to get permission to print other people's work or to go over the licensing agreement you would need to make with WoTC or the price of the supplies and software you need to get the project done. Leaving that last bit out though, then you have to be convinced that your Mystara book will be bought by all the hardcores who love the setting. You also have to be convinced that they will embrace the things that you have done in the world and won't pan it outright. If you think that selling 7500 copies would be easy, you are probably wrong. Most 3e books don't sell that well, even the venerable Monte Cook doesn't always top those numbers and he is the hottest thing in 3e right now. To put it more plainly and clearly, the first Blackmoor print run won't be that large. I won't argue or debate about which one is more popular as I don't see any Blackmoor listervers...... Yet. ;) Dustin -- Dustin Clingman Zeitgeist Games, Inc. www.zeitgeistgames.com -----Original Message----- From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of SteelAngel Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 11:41 AM To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Marco's Questions On Mon, 24 Feb 2003, Magister Mystaros wrote: > to happen. If it could be done, I would already have been working on > it. We all know each other, that is, all the old fans of Mystara, and > I don't know of any of us that has an extra $30,000 sitting around. Well, Not to toot our own horns, but the ever Chaotic Good group over at Jenni's Mystara 3e group has been discussing things for a good while now, and will have web published things quite soon, as soon as our bickering over the cosmology has died down to acceptible levels. And, let me tell you, had I $50k lying around, I'd buy the damn license myself :D Ethan -- Kinard 210 Linux Guru Webmaster www.steelangel.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 12:38:27 -0500 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Marco's Questions > > From: SteelAngel > > And, let me tell you, had I $50k lying around, I'd buy the damn license > myself :D > I've got $3,500; we just need another 30 people to chip in a few bucks and we can all put our money where our mouth is. Oh, wait, I'll have to ask my kids if they mind not going to college first before I donate anything ;) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 12:44:50 -0500 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Marco's Questions > > From: Dustin Clingman > > Now we have an estimate of $90K cash in hand to get the book out the > door and let people know about it. > Well, I do have a slightly used wooden leg I can hock, that might get me another $5k. Anyone want to give up a kidney? I promise I'll make you the Vice CEO! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 12:55:41 -0600 From: Magister Mystaros Subject: Re: Global Interaction <> When you are talking about continents separated widely by oceans, histories don't generally cross in broad patterns except every couple of millennia. Remember, there was a 10 to 15 thousand year gap between the last major cultural influx from Eurasia to North America and the current one. That's about the same amount of time for the differentiation between surface elves and Drow in most campaign settings, and that period of time, even for the elves, was long ago and mostly forgotten. <> This actually is not much of a worry. Just look at Mystara's own history to see why. Alphatia may indeed be a global power, however, the direct influence she has had over other nations of Brun has been spotty. Alphatia has been around for 2000 years, yet Norwold, which is just a hop, skip, and a jump across the water, is still as barbaric as ever. Thyatis, yes, she had a great influence on. Ylaruam less, the Northern Reaches barely at all. Then look to her eastern borders, and she only recently had any affect on Skothar. << How could the relatively magic-rich setting of Mystara fit in with the somewhat lower magic settings?>> Now, if you are talking about "basic magical energy" versus "use of magic," that can be simply explained with the flow of magic being stronger on one continent than another. If it is with "use of magic," like with Alphatians versus all others in the Known World, magic-use would simply be genetically more common among certain people than others, or the tradition would be older, and it would be a cultural thing. James ****************************** James "Mystaros" Mishler Freelance Writer and Troubleshooter mystaros@earthlink.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 12:58:05 -0600 From: Magister Mystaros Subject: Re: Quality of ESDs <> I wouldn't know the particulars on the systems they used, as I was not directly involved with that. I just know I had some friends from there who lamented the loss of a lot of earlier stuff, because they were the ones who had to scan and/or retype it all... James ****************************** James "Mystaros" Mishler Freelance Writer and Troubleshooter mystaros@earthlink.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 13:02:54 -0600 From: Magister Mystaros Subject: Re: Marco's Questions Ethan said: <> Yes, I've been watching the Mystara 3E group for some time. While what the group is doing is great, there is still a vast difference in effect between an actual printed book and a web puplication. The average PDF sold on RPGNow only sells a couple hundred copies, if that, whereas we are looking at a lot more people picking up an actual book. James ****************************** James "Mystaros" Mishler Freelance Writer and Troubleshooter mystaros@earthlink.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 14:02:26 -0500 From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Marco's Questions On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, Dustin Clingman wrote: > Ethan, > > To put it more plainly and clearly, the first Blackmoor print run won't > be that large. I won't argue or debate about which one is more popular > as I don't see any Blackmoor listervers...... Yet. ;) Well, I'd only say that I'd buy the license. I'm sure that there are probably some companies out there who have an established publishing apparatus, though I would probably forgo a big hardcover edition to save costs. But I'm no businessman. Ethan -- Kinard 210 Linux Guru Webmaster www.steelangel.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 08:26:33 +1300 From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Hacklopedia Mystarica: The Guide to the HackWurld of Mystaros > To be honest, that's not the best argument, but I do know that I will > be watching the sales to see if it would be worth the money to potentially > invest in Mystara for other products. I doubt anyone could please you > crazy hardcores though. :) It's ironic, as Mystaraphiles go, we tend to grab anything Mystarian on the net and praise it, but the thought of a new *PUBLISHED* Mystara seems to be a delicate topic. I don't understand it myself. If you can make use of it, it is a good product IMO. If not ignore it and everyones happy. I for one don't mind if Mystara is published again or not. While I would be thrilled to see it published I still have plenty of stuff to work from and the output from the net comunity could keep you going for years. The one thing I am really keen to see is some of the net stuff formatted such that it looks like a published work. Nice artwork and layout and such in a PDF format. Having an artwork team for the MA has definatly helped IMNSHO. But theres still a way to go yet, and I'm not sure if the artwork team can keep pace with the writers. I have been most imprest with OD&DITIES in this regard I must say. And the Newbie guide should be good when it's finished. As for Zeitgeist and Blackmoor, I think they are doing a pretty good job by the looks of things. What I managed to read of the preview was good (apart from some gramatical errors which I am notorious for anyway so can't be too judgemental about) Oh and congrats to James. It sounds like a very cool oppitunity. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 12:00:19 -0800 From: Joe Kelly Subject: Re: Hacklopedia Mystarica: The Guide to the HackWurldof Mystaros Hey Mystaros, a personal question on Ierendi How detailed is the government structure going to be?=20 I mean will you have names and power groups for the natiion? I hope so, as = this will really help my personal campaign? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:37:41 -0600 From: Magister Mystaros Subject: Re: New Ierendi Joe Kelly Quoth: <> Joe, Each nation will have a solid block of detail, more than the Almanacs, but obviously not as much detail as the Gazetteers. There will be enough detail to get the basic politics of each nation, includinbg who's who, various organizations, and so forth. It won't go into depth on who has dirt on whom, and such, but there will be enough to work with. I hope to be able to have a column in KoDT to cover more details as things go along... a regular monthly, sort of like Bruce Heard's "Known World Grimoire" from back in the old Dragon. James ****************************** James "Mystaros" Mishler Freelance Writer and Troubleshooter mystaros@earthlink.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 20:11:37 -0800 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: Hacklopedia Mystarica - The Guide to the HackWurld of > From: Magister Mystaros [mailto:mystaros@EARTHLINK.NET] > > And in a case of fantasy being mocked by reality being mocked by > fantasy, the Great School of Magic in Glantri will be, well... wait till > you see. [JenniM] "Oh my," she says, as visions of broomsticks, blodgers and snitches dance in her head... Now if that is even *vaguely* in the direction you're heading my eyes are sparkling even brighter in anticipation. But do be oh so careful about the copyright issues (though, as a parody of one source placed inside a parody of another source you might just have a bit more leeway than normal there...) By the way - I also approve of the Merry Ierendi Pirate Isles. I too, have merged Green Ronin's Freeport setting into my Ierendi as it certainly fits the mold (and you totally have my permission to rip and rend anything you like out of my merged history!) However I am wondering - you've made frequent mention of the "tourist trap" and "80's TV show references" issues of Ierendi, but none whatsoever of the other elements, so I pose the following questions: In the Hackwurld of Mystaros, what will become of the following? * Government: * Still a Kingdom with King, Queen and nominated Tribunal? * Does the Castle of Ierendi still exist? * Adventurers: * Does the Adventurers' Club still exist? * Is there still a Royal Tournament of Adventurers? * Is it still responsible for the selection of the King & Queen? * Are "help/jobs wanted" postings still found somewhere (on "The North Wall of the castle" or otherwise) * Religion: * Does "The People's Temple" still exist? * What of the Utter Island Albino's and their sandcastle religion? * How about the Whitenight Druids on White Island? * Education & Training: * Ierendi Public Schools? * Ierendi School of the Arts? * Ierendi Naval Academy? * Aloysius island: * Is it/was it a penal colony? * Is there still a penitentiary there? * Will there still be gold and gem deposits there? * Have they been found? * If found, have dwarves flocked to the island to craft them? * Do Mau-mau mosquitoes still exist? * The Makai: * Will the natives themselves still exist? * What of their "ancient magics" (_Doze_ breadfruit and _Mau-mau bane_) * Are their "ancient burial grounds" on Elegy Island? * Miscellaneous * What's up with Honor Island and the Honor Island Mages? * Is Fletcher Island still famous birds and feathered art? * Bargle the Wizard, Jr. (nephew of Ludwig's hireling) still be around? Thanks in advance, Jenni -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield User Experience PM - Microsoft Content Management Server Designing to Requirements and Walking on Water is EASY. . . . . . So long as both are Frozen. -- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 20:11:43 -0800 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: Hacklopedia Mystarica Provisos [Geoff] From: Magister Mystaros [mailto:mystaros@EARTHLINK.NET] > The Carnifex Loremaster Pondered: > > < the > work from the Vaults, besides your own? I'm sure no one on this List would > mind if that was the case, but I thought I'd ask.>> > > Unfortunately, I can't really use the info from the Vaults (besides my > own) > due to copyright issues. However, whenever there are major issues of > debatable nature, such as "Just WHERE does Norwold fit in," I delved into > what everyone on the MML thought, as an assist. So yes, everyone here has > had and will have some influence in the design, in as much as I have used > their designs/decisions/ideas/complaints to temper my own. You could use it if the people who generated the material and thus own the copyrights would be willing to grant you exclusive rights to use their material within the context of the HackWurld of Mystaros for Kenzer and Co, so why not ask? The Mystara-specific based copyrights have already been granted for the same purpose, and so all you should need is a signed notice from the person or persons in question, something along the lines of: ----------------- I/we warrant that all elements of not specifically related to the Known World of Mystara, is original, and that its publication will not violate the rights of any third party, and that the person/s identified herein is/are its sole owner/s. Furthermore, I/we are of legal age and am/are free to make agreements relative to this work, or I/we am/are the authorized representative/s of the person/s identified: Complete for each owner of : Signature: Date: Owner Name [please type or print]: If not signed by owner, indicate relationship: [ ]Parent; [ ]Legal Guardian; [ ]Agent; [ ]Other: {indicate relationship} ----------------- Not that I have much that you could probably use, but if I did I'd be more than willing to officially give you the rights to use them in the HackWurld. Jenni PS: By the way - I based the above on the copyright section of the standard disclosure form for Dungeon. =JAMM -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield User Experience PM - Microsoft Content Management Server Designing to Requirements and Walking on Water is EASY. . . . . . So long as both are Frozen. -- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 20:11:43 -0800 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Re: Hacklopedia Mystarica Provisos (Cthulhudrew) From: Magister Mystaros [mailto:mystaros@EARTHLINK.NET] > The Mighty Cthulhudrew Pontificated: > > < clans stuff), the plateau of the Atruaghin tribes is smaller in the 8 mile > version than it is on the 24 mile versions.>> > > Yes, that is another of the fixes. As I mentioned in my earlier > Westerlands posts, the Atruaghin get fixed a bit... Oo. Ooo. Oooooo! Did I just hear you say the "Westerlands" and the revised Atruaghin, per your recent email messages (much of which I have already selflessly begun to purloin for my own 3E campaign) will be an official part of the Hackwurld? I never thought I'd see the day I'd be salivating over a *HackMaster* supplement of all things, but... well... {Oh dear, sorry 'bout that. Didn't mean to get all your keyboards wet.... Here, let me get a napkin...} > Thanks Andrew! I will NOT disappoint you! You should definitely pick up > HackMaster. Use the bits you like, don't use the bits you don't. Unlike > certain other editions of D&D, which shall remain nameless (cough... 3E... > cough), you CAN do that. (^_^) Not intended as flame bait or anything, but you can disregard bits of (and even add bits to) 3E if you choose. The DMG is full of variant rule options, and usually includes reasons why they weren't selected as a core rule and what kind of impact they might have on a campaign as a whole. Realistically, any DM can pick up almost any RPG and choose to "Rule Zero" something. :-) By the way - will I *need* whatever the core HackMaster books are to understand the "Hackwurld of Mystaros" if all I want to do is borrow the ideas and port it into a 3E campaign, and what are they, exactly, if I do need them? (Just want to know what kind of fiscal layout I'll need to calculate into my "RPG Budget" for the end of the year...) Jenni -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield strawberry @ jamm . com Designing to Requirements and Walking on Water is EASY. . . . . . So long as both are Frozen. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 24 Feb 2003 to 25 Feb 2003 (#2003-57) ***************************************************************