Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 11 Mar 2003 to 12 Mar 2003 (#2003-72) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 13/03/2003, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 10 messages totalling 595 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Cultures (3) 2. Global Interaction (4) 3. D&D3E Mystara Conversions (2) 4. The Ettin's Riddle ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 11:38:51 +0100 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Cultures ----- Original Message ----- From: "Giampaolo Agosta" > Asgor Ironfist wrote: > > Another thing, it seens so strange to me that the Zuyevo Empire didn't had > > any traladaran influence, since traladaran have (at leats a little) of the > > russian culture (at least, some names). > > That's, IMO, a bit of a bug: on one hand, eastern european languages and nation map mostly to Traladara, on the other, a Traladaran Zuyevo would bring the influence of Traladara a bit too far. IMO, and referring to uncanon sources about the origin of the Traldar people, they came to Rockhome after the Great Rain of Fire, from the west, and then they went to Nithia, and then, as we know, to Traladara. But who lived in the west of Brun before they went to Rockhome? according to uncanon sources before the Great Rain of Fire tribes of Neathar humans lived in the west of Brun, a people of followers of Ordana... I think they were the "original" slavic-russian type people... Some of them went to the east and later became the Traldar, others remain in the west and later became the people of the empire of Zuyevo. So the similarity in language between the two people it's explained. But the traladarian language is now very different from the zuveyan, and this happened because the traladaran languages was after mixed with nithian, taymoran (the people of the night who lived in Traladara when the Traldar arrived) and thyatian... So I think that nowadays the traladaran language is a mix of russian-slavic, the original language derived by the west brun people, and romanian-slavic language, the original languages mixed with nithian-taymoran and thyatians words (and so the "greek-latin" influence)... Going deeper we could even say that the slavic russian words are original, the slavic-hungarian words are derived from the nithian, the slavic romanian words from thyatian and so on... we could find an influence from a culture that contacted the Traldars for every modern slavic language... BTW in canon Traladara there are all those influences... names like Torenescu are romanians, names like Dmitrov and Marilenev are russian, names like Markovitch are mostly croatian or serbian, and surnames like Demastria or Trigosta (in KkoA) are probably slovenian or hungarian... Bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 23:18:31 +0100 From: DM Subject: Re: Global Interaction At Tue, 11 Mar 2003 17:09:02 +0200, Alexis Vasileus triumphally announced: > IMO: > Those Alphatian wizards aren't each other's best pals (as evidenced by > strings of fortresses along the borders). They probably spend more time > bickering and plotting against each other than looking for outward > expansion. And why should they want to expand? They've got a nice tower, > several roomfuls of spellbooks, and top-notch research facilities. Making > the effort to go out and expand the empire probably isn't on the top of > their list of priorities. Thus the reason why Alphatia hasn't expanded a lot. Ahem, sorry Aleksei but I don't see where's the connection between the exploring ventures and the typical gruffy and mysterious Alphatian wizard. I mean, you're aware that the explorations are pursued by explorators (private or state financed more likely), and that not all explorators need to be mage ;) In case of the Alphatian skyships, you just need to have a good crew and a competent captain, be it spellcaster or not. It will likely be a spellcaster, since normally only thos magic wielding types can rise in the ranks of the Alphatian govt, but then if he pursues a military career, he will do what the hierarchs tell him to do without complaining too much. So much for your exploration needs ;) And Alphatia would want to explore and find new lands to subjugate and dominate because it's an Empire that thrives on colonialism and imperialism, much like Thyatis. And it has the power to do it, so why not? Its history is a clear sign of this policy (Esterhold, Bellissaria and the Known World aren't exactly out of the door for Alphatia...) That's why I voiced my opinion that's it's highly impossible that Alphatia in Mystaros's world won't be having contacts with other continents and go mess things up there. DM Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac Lt. Cmdr. of U.S.S. Unicorn "You don't stop playing because you grow old: you grow old because you stop playing!" Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967 And Mystara Italian Homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/9940 Join the Mystara Webring at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html Join the Starfleet Academy at: http://gioco.net/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 22:47:01 +0000 From: adrian mattias Subject: Re: Cultures >> Another thing, it seens so strange to me that the Zuyevo Empire didn't had >> any traladaran influence, since traladaran have (at leats a little) of the >> russian culture (at least, some names). > > That's, IMO, a bit of a bug: on one hand, eastern european languages and > nation map mostly to Traladara, on the other, a Traladaran Zuyevo would > bring the influence of Traladara a bit too far. When Christian Constatntin and I were discussing the creation of Zuyevo, we did contemplate the idea of who the original settlers of Zuyevo might be. We considered the Traladarans, but rejected it partly because of the difficulty that they would have had getting to that part of Brun. It seemed to make more sense to have the Zuyevans derive from an Antalian tribe (the Yevo) and an Ethengarian tribe (the Talmavs) who were displaced from their homelands on the east coast of Brun by humanoid invasions led by Loark(?). THese tribes then migrated westwards past Denagoth and through Borea to finally settle on the banks of the Yalu river. _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/hotmail_mobile.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 22:53:17 +0000 From: adrian mattias Subject: Re: Cultures > From: Francesco Defferrari > IMO, and referring to uncanon sources about the origin of the Traldar > people, they came to Rockhome after the Great Rain of Fire, from the west, > and then they went to Nithia, and then, as we know, to Traladara. > But who lived in the west of Brun before they went to Rockhome? according > to > uncanon sources before the Great Rain of Fire tribes of Neathar humans > lived > in the west of Brun, a people of followers of Ordana... > I think they were the "original" slavic-russian type people... Some of them > went to the east and later became the Traldar, others remain in the west > and > later became the people of the empire of Zuyevo. So the similarity in > language between the two people it's explained. But the traladarian > language > is now very different from the zuveyan, and this happened because the > traladaran languages was after mixed with nithian, taymoran (the people of > the night who lived in Traladara when the Traldar arrived) and thyatian... > So I think that nowadays the traladaran language is a mix of > russian-slavic, > the original language derived by the west brun people, and romanian-slavic > language, the original languages mixed with nithian-taymoran and thyatians > words (and so the "greek-latin" influence)... > Going deeper we could even say that the slavic russian words are original, > the slavic-hungarian words are derived from the nithian, the slavic > romanian > words from thyatian and so on... we could find an influence from a culture > that contacted the Traldars for every modern slavic language... BTW in > canon > Traladara there are all those influences... names like Torenescu are > romanians, names like Dmitrov and Marilenev are russian, names like > Markovitch are mostly croatian or serbian, and surnames like Demastria or > Trigosta (in KkoA) are probably slovenian or hungarian... > Bye > Francesco That is also an interesting explanation. It is of course possible that Yevo and Talmav tribes learnt the language of the existing peoples of that area (including the Visneskayans) who they conquered and mixed with, and that this mixing created a type of slavic/Russian. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Instant Messenger now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/hotmail_messenger.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 18:31:10 -0600 From: Magister Mystaros Subject: Re: Global Interaction <> It's not just in my world that they do not have further exploration/influence, Marco. If you look at Canon sources, direct Alphatian political influence extends little beyond their current boundaries and the Known World. Let's look at Canon sources of Alphatian exploration/conquest through 1000 AC: 4000 BC - Alphatians conquer the Cypri civilization. [DotE] 3500 BC - Alphatians explore and conquer nearby planets and explore the elemental planes. [DotE] 3000 BC - Alphatians become obsessed with philosophizing and magical mastery. They enter a 2000 year period of isolation and introspection. [DotE] [Yes, 2000 years during which they contemplate their navel and master the ways of magic. No colonization. No conquest. No exploration.] 1000 BC - Old Alphatia destroyed. Alphatian Followers of Air flee to Mystara, to the continent island now known as Alphatia. [DotE] "Soon after they arrived" - Magic-using Alphatians settle Bellisaria "to forge new kingdoms at a distance from the capital at Sundsvall." [DotE] "Settled in the centuries after Alphatian Landfall..." - Common Alphatians settle Ochalea to get away from the growing empire and those that use magic. [DotE] [Between 1000 and 500 BC, The Alphatian Empire consists of the island continent, and at some point during this time, it can be assumed, the "free lands" on Bellissaria and Ochalea are absorbed or conquered. Though I would personally put the absorption of Ochalea after the fall of Nithia, as that would have been in the Nithian "Sphere of Influence" west of the Isle of Dawn.] 500 BC - Alphatians move in and take over the Isle of Dawn after the destruction of the Nithian Empire. [DotE] [Between 500 and 200 BC the Alphatians are busy absorbing the Isle of Dawn, the Alatians, and the Pearl Islands... possibly Ochalea, as well.] 200 BC - Alphatians conquer Esterhold. [DotE] 190 BC - Alphatia conquers Thyatis. [DotE] [Note that there is no further expansion of any major sort after this time. Alphatia seems to have reached its maximum extent, and, in the case of Thyatis, bitten off more than it can safely swallow.] 2 BC to 0 AC - Alphatia loses Thyatis, Ochalea, the Pearl Islands, and about half of the Isle of Dawn. [DotE] ["Over the next thousand years, the Thyatian/Alphatian borders crawled all over the [Isle of Dawn], but in general the two empires have controlled fairly equal territories."] 15 AC - Alphatians hire Norse to destroy the Thyatian colony at Alpha. [DotE] 250 AC - Alphatians begin colonizing the northern Alasiyan desert. [GAZ 2, DotE] 250 AC - Alphatians found the colony of New Alphatia on Minroth Isle. [GAZ 9] [Note that it seems that while the colonies in Ylaruam were at least "semi-official" to start with, if not directly founded at the behest of the Empire, the colony in Minrothad was independent, the result of non-Imperial Alphatians wanting to *get away* from the Empire, with no Imperial support,as their quick alliance with the native suggests. However, see below for more on the Alasiyan colonies.] 500 AC - Qeodhar *voluntarily* joins the Empire. [DotE] 728 AC - Alphatian colonies finally get upper hand in Alasiya. [GAZ 2, DotE] 786 to 828 AC - Halzunthram in Glantri; Alphatian forces eventually kicked out. [GAZ 3, DotE] 827 AC - Alphatian colonies in Ylaruam destroyed by Al-Kalim. [GAZ 2, DotE] [Check this out... nations with a population the size of the Alphatian *capital city* (or even 1/2 the size, in the case of Ylaruam) kick the Empire *out*. Hmmm... either the Empire is a paper tiger or the colonial efforts were not at the behest of the Empire! Either way, this bodes not well for the theory that Alphatia is a great colonial power, let alone truly a powerful Empire.] 959 to 960 AC - Alphatia invades Thyatis at the behest of its insane emperor. [DotE] [Note that Tylion could not get enough support from his Empire to conquer their greatest enemy... because he had *insulted* his subjects and made some political enemies! Even though they came within a *gladiator's hairsbreadth* of conquering the only other empire on the world of any note, the rest of the Empire didn't back him... out of pettiness and pique. And thus, they lost the war. So much for the grand Empire!] 964 AC - Prince Haldemar and the Princess Ark set out on a long, long journey to discover what the world is really like outside the Empire and the Known World, as nobody seems to really know! [VotPA] 985 AC - Empress Eriadna decides to claim Norwold, forms the kingdom of Alpha. [DotE] 992 AC - "Empress Eriadna of Alphatia accedes to her son Ericall's demands for a kingdom of his own. She gives him the city of Alpha in Norwold, the *empty title* of king of that nation, and a great degree of autonomy." [DotE] [Emphasis mine] 995 AC - Ericall grants governorship of Landfall to his half-brother, Lernal the Swill. [DotE] So we have a 500 year period of growth after the Alphatians first arrive, mostly spurred not by the desire of the Empire to grow, but by the Common Alphatian desire to get away from the budding Empire! The Common Alphatians settle the new regions [some in areas obviously under Nithian control,] then over time the magical Empire comes along afterward and swallows them up. Easy enough, when everywhere the Common Alphatians go are lands run by savages and stone age primitives. Then, once Nithia does its disappearing act, Alphatia moves in and takes over the regions that have been weakened by the loss of their history and culture... not much of a great conquest, eh? Still, it takes them 300 years to absorb that. Then the best they can do is conquer more stone-age primitives in Esterhold, and take over a barbaric, piratical culture on the verge of the empire, the Thyatians. They try to swallow that for nearly 200 years, with no further expansion otherwise... and fail! Not only do they fail, but they also lose the western third of their empire! After that, the few attempts at colonization and conquest are farcical and fallacious. Kicked out of the desert by barbarians... a people whom, if you took every last man, woman, and child, would not fill half the capital city of the Empire! The list goes on and on... the record speaks for itself. Alphatia has reached its natural extent. Sure, an adventurer might wander out once in a while, strike out on his own, and try to conquer a kingdom. There haven;t been any such *successful* efforts in more than a thousand years, though. Sure, if Greyhack becomes a reality, the Alphatians may have had something to do with the Suloise and Baklunish Empires, performed some trade, and continue to do so to this day in the Flanaess... but no conquest. Get real! They can't even properly conquer the Yannivey Islands. They are an "Empire" in name only, really. Each kingdom does pretty much whatever it wants, even attacks the other kingdoms as the whims take them. But the glory days of "conquest" are long past (if, really, they ever existed as "glory days.") The whole Hollow World "Alphatium Neatharum" thing was a way to *get rid of* Alphatia, a set-up for the kiss-off, not a real attempt at conquest. Heck, once they were there, they even *gave away* the territories, in some sort of politically correct desire to "rule through tradeand alliance, rather than military might." Doesn't sound terribly Imperious to me... As for the Empire "thriving on Imperialism," well, the numbers (population and production wise) of the colonial areas show that the military costs involved to hold them and keep them from Thyatis do not pay for themselves! The colonies are actually a drain on the empire; most production actually occurs on Alphatia or Bellissaria (which can hardly be considered a colony at this time by any means.) The entire population of the eastern Isle of Dawn territories was less than 300,000. 300,000! That produces a whopping surplus for 15,000 urbanites, according to Bruce Heard's dominion calculator. That's not enough for the local cities and towns, let alone enough to handle the necessary imperial garrisons or send anything back as "tribute." The Empire would have been better off abandoning the Isle of Dawn, if it weren't for the Thyatians being eager to conquer it and use it as a stepping stone to get some payback at the Empire... And remember, this is all according the Canon resources. None of this is my own, for once... (^_^) Now with the HackWurld of Mystaros, you will see each kingdom, the empire, and the Isle of Dawn live up to their potential... James ****************************** James "Mystaros" Mishler Freelance Writer and Troubleshooter mystaros@earthlink.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 16:47:48 -0800 From: Joe Kelly Subject: Re: Global Interaction 2000 years during which they contemplate their navel=20 lol, wow a long time to contemplate the Bellybutton! :) JK Wolf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 19:01:40 -0600 From: Magister Mystaros Subject: Re: Global Interaction <> Whoops! Math is not my forte. That should, of course, be 60,000, not 15,000. Still, even at four times my original calculation, however, my theory still holds. If the entire surplus of production for the Isle of Dawn territories held by Alphatia in 1000 AC were taken as tribute (thus starving out the entire urban population), it still would not be enough to feed 1/8th the population of the capital city. Let alone leave anything in the way of treasure for the Imperial coffers... James ****************************** James "Mystaros" Mishler Freelance Writer and Troubleshooter mystaros@earthlink.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 18:44:53 -0800 From: Joaquin Menchaca Subject: Re: D&D3E Mystara Conversions > Subject: Re: D&D3E Mystara Conversions > > I would be interested in seeing those 3E modules. Hi, OK. I posted a main link here: http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/ShadowTriad/mystara3e.html This in turn has links to two ongoing projects: 1- http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/ShadowTriad/books/b6conv.pdf 2- http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/ShadowTriad/books/voi.pdf I hope people can get a chance to check them out. Now, I am trying to desperately finish "Village of Irenke", but as I need to work on some material for this Friday's game, I might add some more material for B6: Veiled Society. enjoy, Joaquin __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 19:25:15 -0800 From: Bleakcabal Subject: Re: D&D3E Mystara Conversions It's very well done. - Gilles "bleakcabal" Leblanc --- Joaquin Menchaca wrote: >> Subject: Re: D&D3E Mystara Conversions >> >> I would be interested in seeing those 3E modules. > > > Hi, > > OK. I posted a main link here: > > > http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/ShadowTriad/mystara3e.html > > This in turn has links to two ongoing projects: > > 1- > http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/ShadowTriad/books/b6conv.pdf > 2- > http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/ShadowTriad/books/voi.pdf > > I hope people can get a chance to check them out. > Now, I am trying to desperately finish "Village of > Irenke", but as I need to work on some material for > this Friday's game, I might add some more material for > B6: Veiled Society. > > enjoy, > Joaquin > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! News - Today's headlines > http://news.yahoo.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. _____________________________________________________________ GameDev.net Email Service - "Plenty of 1's and 0's" _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 23:03:56 -0800 From: Joaquin Menchaca Subject: The Ettin's Riddle I came across this by accident. This would be a great little adventure, but it can also serve as a good adventure for a priest that lost powers for breaking his/her alignment, vows, etc. The module can be found at: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article1.asp?x=dnd/oa/oa20000901a,3 I would suggest the following adjustments: (1) Change the names to fit Traldaran and/or Thyatian Aranda Aurica Gerd Flinwhisker Georghe Flinwhisker* Hannan Henric Joldan Joldan Kyrnyn Circu Malwick Matatias Noldur Nandru Restik Robin Temmet Tibor * He's got some hin blood in him... :-) (2) Swap out Heironeous and Hextor dieties for the most appropriate Mystaran Immortals. I personally use Halav in place of Heironeous. (3) The riddle is based on Heironeous and Hextor. If Halav is used, here's a poem that might work. Two heads have we, but born with one. We avenged, healed, and protected Our master was Mighty But punished we all who objected Heeded we the beastman trait And so by our god were rejected. Thus, this is our fate One head, twice bisected. Lastly, make sure that Halav is known as "the Mighty", so that line three will work. For now, I posted these notes at: http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/ShadowTriad/mystara3e.html regards, Joaquin Menchaca PS - I don't think Heironeous was a good poet, so this might make Halav look bad. If anyone can think of a better poem, especially with tempo and rhyme, this is your challenge!!! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 11 Mar 2003 to 12 Mar 2003 (#2003-72) ***************************************************************