Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 15 Mar 2003 to 16 Mar 2003 (#2003-76) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 17/03/2003, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 5 messages totalling 560 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Global Interaction (4) 2. Offlist until March 24th ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 16:44:54 +0100 From: DM Subject: Re: Global Interaction At Thu, 13 Mar 2003 16:55:09 +0200, Alexis Vasileus blew the horn of fate: > Yes, the skyships have non-spellcaster crews. However, those Alphatian > non-spellcasters are second-class serf wogs who are expected to kowtow to > their betters (per canon sources, and I don't care for the MA introduction > of Alphatian "citizens"). So they are not exactly motivated to go out and > explore/conquer new lands, especially if the spellcaster aristocracy will > just come in and take over once they are done. Sorry again Aleksei, but if you are a soldier, you have to bow down to your officers. It's a fact! And I believe all people who join the military, be it in Thyatis, Alphatia or anywhere else, do it because they: a. can't do otherwise (because of social, economical or contigent issues); b. hope to better their status; c. believe in the order and like to fight for the nation. May I remind you that Torenal, High General of Alphatia, wasn't a spellcaster? :) So I do think that if a person is skillful, he can prove himself and gain ranks in the military even in Alphatia, without being a spellcaster. That said, soldiers in Alphatia can't take decisions as much as they can't in Thyatis. They just have to follow their officers' orders, and if the captain says "we go exploring", they go. There's no strike or nagging, else you're thrown in the brig or worse. As for the aristocracy coming in and ruling the new lands, this is not accurate. Look at Ochalea (it was originally an Alphatian protectorate), Bellissaria and especially Norwold. It is clear that here the Alphatian commoners find refuge from the classist system that is considered untolerable in the mainland, so that's a good reason for going to explore new lands for commoners. > On the contrast, Thyatis gives very good rights to its people by the > standards of any Mystaran > nation, even slaves have some rights. Thus, IMO, it is Alphatia who should > fear a Thyatian offensive, because Thyatian morale and motivation are way > higher than Alphatian. uh? Maybe and maybe not. It's all really a matter of how much fanatical you are. If we reason like this, dwarves would be the most unstoppable force ever ;p > It's like Greece and Persia - sure, Persia had the > larger empire, but it collapsed like a house of cards when the Greeks > invaded, because the Greeks had a stake in their nation's success and the > Persians did not. It was Alexander the Great who brought the Persian empire of Serses and Cyrus to its knees. And Alexander was not a Greek (he was a Macedonian), very much opposed by the Greeks and yet he became the champion of Greece and the first great Emperor of the unified lands of Greece, Persia and Egypt (going as far as India). And at the end he probably died because of a poisoning ordered by his enemies in Greece. So I wouldn't think Greeks were that much "focused" on crushing the Persian empire. They just wanted to get free from its clutches, and only because of Alexander's dream and cunning the great march continued and succeeded in the end (many defected the army returning to Greece after the Turkish peninsula was conquered). DM Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac Lt. Cmdr. of U.S.S. Unicorn "You don't stop playing because you grow old: you grow old because you stop playing!" Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967 And Mystara Italian Homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/9940 Join the Mystara Webring at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html Join the Starfleet Academy at: http://gioco.net/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 16:46:55 +0100 From: DM Subject: Re: Offlist until March 24th At Thu, 13 Mar 2003 22:30:18 -0600, Magister Mystaros announced: > Just thought I'd drop a note to let you know I won't be able to answer = > any HackWurld questions for the next week or so, as I will be out of = > town and offline until March 24th. So if you do have any questions, feel = > free to ask them, but don't expect an answer for a while... Have fun at GAMA James! ;) I hope Kenzer will throw us some spicy bits after the official announcement. When will there be some teasers to download? ;) DM Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac Lt. Cmdr. of U.S.S. Unicorn "You don't stop playing because you grow old: you grow old because you stop playing!" Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967 And Mystara Italian Homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/9940 Join the Mystara Webring at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html Join the Starfleet Academy at: http://gioco.net/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 17:20:36 +0100 From: DM Subject: Re: Global Interaction At Wed, 12 Mar 2003 18:31:10 -0600, Magister Mystaros elaborated: > It's not just in my world that they do not have further > exploration/influence, Marco. If you look at Canon sources, direct Alphatian > political influence extends little beyond their current boundaries and the > Known World. Ok, let's look at canon sources. How many continents are there in Mystara? Answer: 5 (6 if you count the Isle of Dawn, which I would say is darn big enough to qualify...) Where are Alphatia's colonies located? Answer: Alphatia, Bellissaria (two whole continents under Alphatia's rule), Skothar (Esterhold), Brun (Norwold), Isle of Dawn That count as 4 continents and the Isle of Dawn. SO it is controlling lands in FOUR CONTINENTS out of FIVE (if you don't include the IoD). Now let's look at Thyatis. It rules lands in Brun (Thyatian Mainland), Davania (The Hinterlands), Isle of Dawn, Ochalea and Pearl Islands It means it's got a foothold in only TWO CONTINENTS out of FIVE. And yet Thyatis is established as a military and colonial power. How so? What's the difference between the two? I dare say Alphatia is as much a colonialist empire as Thyatis is, and it's pretty unlikely it never used its skyships to venture further in its exploration of the world. Having the means and not using them to gain more knowledge and more power is just silly and not really "Alphatian". Now if you say: in Mystaros's world there's no Skothar, no Bellissaria and no Davania, then fine with me, maybe Alphatia can pass as a isolationist nation, but it's not the Alphatia we know from the original sources. Also don't call it empire, or I could just call even Norwold an "empire". ;) > Let's look at Canon sources of Alphatian exploration/conquest through 1000 > AC: > > 4000 BC - Alphatians conquer the Cypri civilization. [DotE] > 3500 BC - Alphatians explore and conquer nearby planets and explore the > elemental planes. [DotE] > 3000 BC - Alphatians become obsessed with philosophizing and magical > mastery. They enter a 2000 year period of isolation and introspection. > [DotE] > > [Yes, 2000 years during which they contemplate their navel and master the > ways of magic. No colonization. No conquest. No exploration.] Can it be they enter a period of isolation because there's NOTHING left to conquer outside in their own solar system???? I very much believe so... Also controlling MANY planets as it's stated involves a LOT of beurocracy and money, so they were probably pushing it as much as they could without losing resources. I don't see anything wrong with this. > 500 BC - Alphatians move in and take over the Isle of Dawn after the > destruction of the Nithian Empire. [DotE] > > [Between 500 and 200 BC the Alphatians are busy absorbing the Isle of Dawn, > the Alatians, and the Pearl Islands... possibly Ochalea, as well.] > > 200 BC - Alphatians conquer Esterhold. [DotE] > 190 BC - Alphatia conquers Thyatis. [DotE] > > [Note that there is no further expansion of any major sort after this time. > Alphatia seems to have reached its maximum extent, and, in the case of > Thyatis, bitten off more than it can safely swallow.] So they do nothing for 2000 years and suddenly conquer everything in 2000 miles radius from their new homeland in only 300 years once they settle on Mystara (actually, 500 years after Landfall, but I understand they had to spend these 500 years studying the new world and bickering among themselves, until a real unified nation was forged and a new emperor was crowned). That tells something of the Alphatian supremacy in the military field. > 2 BC to 0 AC - Alphatia loses Thyatis, Ochalea, the Pearl Islands, and about > half of the Isle of Dawn. [DotE] > > ["Over the next thousand years, the Thyatian/Alphatian borders crawled all > over the [Isle of Dawn], but in general the two empires have controlled > fairly equal territories."] In 2 years they lose what they gained in 300 years of warfare and conquests. Does it see so logical and realistic to you? It doesn't really to me, especially given Alphatia's superior magical knowledge and military... but then, Mystaran timeline is choke full of these inconsistencies, alas. > 15 AC - Alphatians hire Norse to destroy the Thyatian colony at Alpha. > [DotE] > 250 AC - Alphatians begin colonizing the northern Alasiyan desert. [GAZ 2, > DotE] > 250 AC - Alphatians found the colony of New Alphatia on Minroth Isle. [GAZ > 9] > > [Note that it seems that while the colonies in Ylaruam were at least > "semi-official" to start with, if not directly founded at the behest of the > Empire, the colony in Minrothad was independent, the result of non-Imperial > Alphatians wanting to *get away* from the Empire, with no Imperial > support,as their quick alliance with the native suggests. However, see below > for more on the Alasiyan colonies.] > > 500 AC - Qeodhar *voluntarily* joins the Empire. [DotE] > 728 AC - Alphatian colonies finally get upper hand in Alasiya. [GAZ 2, DotE] > 786 to 828 AC - Halzunthram in Glantri; Alphatian forces eventually kicked > out. [GAZ 3, DotE] > 827 AC - Alphatian colonies in Ylaruam destroyed by Al-Kalim. [GAZ 2, DotE] > > [Check this out... nations with a population the size of the Alphatian > *capital city* (or even 1/2 the size, in the case of Ylaruam) kick the > Empire *out*. Hmmm... either the Empire is a paper tiger or the colonial > efforts were not at the behest of the Empire! Either way, this bodes not > well for the theory that Alphatia is a great colonial power, let alone truly > a powerful Empire.] Indeed another thing very much unlikely to explain. Obviously if you start with the assumption Alphatia is a paper tiger it's pretty much believable for you they got chased from Alaysia. But then explain why they were able to conquer half the world in 300 years and lose half of it in 2 years... :p > 959 to 960 AC - Alphatia invades Thyatis at the behest of its insane > emperor. [DotE] > > [Note that Tylion could not get enough support from his Empire to conquer > their greatest enemy... because he had *insulted* his subjects and made some > political enemies! Even though they came within a *gladiator's hairsbreadth* > of conquering the only other empire on the world of any note, the rest of > the Empire didn't back him... out of pettiness and pique. And thus, they > lost the war. So much for the grand Empire!] See Alexander the Great's history. It happened in real world, it's not that strange IMHO. > 964 AC - Prince Haldemar and the Princess Ark set out on a long, long > journey to discover what the world is really like outside the Empire and the > Known World, as nobody seems to really know! [VotPA] > 985 AC - Empress Eriadna decides to claim Norwold, forms the kingdom of > Alpha. [DotE] And nobody said a damn thing about that! What does this tell you about Thyatis' power?? Also, you have left out the historical references found in M5 about the wars in Norwold and the Isle of Dawn and the treaty of Edairo.. > So we have a 500 year period of growth after the Alphatians first arrive, > mostly spurred not by the desire of the Empire to grow, but by the Common > Alphatian desire to get away from the budding Empire! The Common Alphatians > settle the new regions [some in areas obviously under Nithian control,] then > over time the magical Empire comes along afterward and swallows them up. > Easy enough, when everywhere the Common Alphatians go are lands run by > savages and stone age primitives. Then, once Nithia does its disappearing > act, Alphatia moves in and takes over the regions that have been weakened by > the loss of their history and culture... not much of a great conquest, eh? > Still, it takes them 300 years to absorb that. Then the best they can do is > conquer more stone-age primitives in Esterhold, and take over a barbaric, > piratical culture on the verge of the empire, the Thyatians. They try to > swallow that for nearly 200 years, with no further expansion otherwise... > and fail! Not only do they fail, but they also lose the western third of > their empire! After that, the few attempts at colonization and conquest are > farcical and fallacious. Kicked out of the desert by barbarians... a people > whom, if you took every last man, woman, and child, would not fill half the > capital city of the Empire! The list goes on and on... the record speaks for > itself. indeed it does. > Alphatia has reached its natural extent. I'm not saying the contrary. I'm just sayin I find highly unlikely they don't fund exploration missions to know what lies in their world. And if they do (granted they are the only empire with HUGE FLYING MILITARY SHIPS, which should give them the edge in every standard combat), then they will get to know about the other nations of Hackwurld. And probably want to conquer the most primitive as you put it, because it's easy game. So what will the interations between Alphatia and the rest of the world be? Because it's unrealistic to have the KW and ALphatia secluded away from the rest of the World. Even in Mystara there's some trade with Hule and the Savage Coast! > As for the Empire "thriving on Imperialism," well, the numbers (population > and production wise) of the colonial areas show that the military costs > involved to hold them and keep them from Thyatis do not pay for themselves! > The colonies are actually a drain on the empire; most production actually > occurs on Alphatia or Bellissaria (which can hardly be considered a colony > at this time by any means.) The entire population of the eastern Isle of > Dawn territories was less than 300,000. 300,000! That produces a whopping > surplus for 60,000 urbanites, according to Bruce Heard's dominion > calculator. I think you're making up numbers here. There's nearly 200.000 people only in Alphatian protectorates, and the major Alphatian cities have a total of 68.000 inhabitants (source: PWA III). You cannot really estimate the real food production of such a big place, because there are too many variables in Bruce's system. > That's not enough for the local cities and towns, let alone > enough to handle the necessary imperial garrisons or send anything back as > "tribute." The Empire would have been better off abandoning the Isle of > Dawn, if it weren't for the Thyatians being eager to conquer it and use it > as a stepping stone to get some payback at the Empire... If the IoD has only a strategic value, then better to leave it to Thyatis and let the THyatis fight with the same "burocratic" problems you're listing. They'll drain their empire's funds and granaries by ruling it and that would be the easiest way to take them out! :p Obviously the IoD has other resources besides the agriculture and hunting, I believe! > Now with the HackWurld of Mystaros, you will see each kingdom, the empire, > and the Isle of Dawn live up to their potential... Let's hope so... DM Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac Lt. Cmdr. of U.S.S. Unicorn "You don't stop playing because you grow old: you grow old because you stop playing!" Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967 And Mystara Italian Homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/9940 Join the Mystara Webring at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html Join the Starfleet Academy at: http://gioco.net/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 12:23:32 -0500 From: Mischa Gelman Subject: Re: Global Interaction On Sat, 15 Mar 2003, DM wrote: > >[Yes, 2000 years during which they contemplate their navel and master the > >ways of magic. No colonization. No conquest. No exploration.] > > Can it be they enter a period of isolation because there's NOTHING left to > conquer outside in their own solar system???? I very much believe so... Huh? That's certainly not the case presented in DoTE, regardless of what you may believe or not. "BC 3000: On the Alphatian's world, Alphatian aggression has gradually been supplanted by Cypric self-absorption; otherplanetary conquests and colonies are left to fend for themselves as Alphatian study of magic turns inward." They merely gave up their explorations and even deserted those lands already conquered. This is withdrawal from the world, not ennui resulting from defeating all obstacles. > Also controlling MANY planets as it's stated involves a LOT of beurocracy > and money, so they were probably pushing it as much as they could without > losing resources. I don't see anything wrong with this. So giving up the colonies and letting them fend for themselves now equals "pushing it as much as they could without losing resources." That's an interesting read on things, worthy of Alphatian arrogance and dishonesty. > crowned). That tells something of the Alphatian supremacy in the military > field. At a time when the rest of the world was not nearly as advanced, yes. How is this different from the success of numerous other empires in Mystaran history - Thonia, Blackmoor, Nithia, etc. Once the rest of the world caught up, though, Alphatia declined the same way these prior empires had. > >2 BC to 0 AC - Alphatia loses Thyatis, Ochalea, the Pearl Islands, and about > >half of the Isle of Dawn. [DotE] > > > In 2 years they lose what they gained in 300 years of warfare and > conquests. Does it see so logical and realistic to you? Empires can collapse very quickly. See the Aztec Empire, the Soviet Union and numerous other real world examples. Alphatia correlates well to the USSR IMO - once one nation bucked the empire and showed it to be the paper tiger it is, everyone else follows suit. > .. but then, Mystaran timeline is choke full of these > inconsistencies, alas. You're right. Alphatia from the beginning was presented as an overexpanded empire which couldn't keep its colonies in line - our first introduction to it in CM1 and M2. M1 verifies their history is one of collapse. When it is later redesigned as a great power in DoTE and later sources, we laugh at the inconsistency of such a claim given all we knew about it. > Indeed another thing very much unlikely to explain. Obviously if you start > with the assumption Alphatia is a paper tiger it's pretty much believable > for you they got chased from Alaysia. But then explain why they were able > to conquer half the world in 300 years and lose half of it in 2 years... :p Because that's the usual developmental course for empires? Grow, become corrupt and overspent, collapse quickly. > >985 AC - Empress Eriadna decides to claim Norwold, forms the kingdom of > >Alpha. [DotE] > > And nobody said a damn thing about that! What does this tell you about > Thyatis' power?? That they could have cared less about middle-of-nowehre arctic wilderness that held no strategic value? The fact that Norworld becomes independent in no time flat tells you plenty though about Alphatia's power. They can claim territory from nobody, but can't hold on to it. > get to know about the other nations of Hackwurld. And probably want to > conquer the most primitive as you put it, because it's easy game. So what > will the interations between Alphatia and the rest of the world be? The very nature of fantasy worlds is that there is no such thing as easy game, though, given the immense power that can be brought to bear by immortal beings in support of territories that hold sentimental value. Heck, look how well underarmed natives have fended off much stronger nations in the real world - Vietnam, Russia in Afghanistan, etc. Sentimentally motivated locals almost always have a chance against arrogant foreigners in fantasy, let alone real life. Also, the feasibility of maintaining long-range empires is poor. The history of real-world empires in this mold is one of failure - just look at how well Great Britain or Spain held on to their overseas territories. The logistics are just too difficult. > If the IoD has only a strategic value, then better to leave it to Thyatis > and let the THyatis fight with the same "burocratic" problems you're > listing. They'll drain their empire's funds and granaries by ruling it and > that would be the easiest way to take them out! :p No one said imperialism was rational. > >Now with the HackWurld of Mystaros, you will see each kingdom, the empire, > >and the Isle of Dawn live up to their potential... > > Let's hope so... Bearing in mind that your definition of Alphatian potential is different from that of others, so don't get your hopes up IMO. I doubt I will be the HackWurld of Mysataros, even though I'm anxious to see a enw Mystara product. It just sounds like everything will be overplayed - the nice thing about the different cultures of the GAZs is that they're a distinctive flavor but the flavor isn't too strong. If Ylaruam becomes a stereotypical Arabic fantasy setting, Darokin a stereotypical Venician fantasy setting and so on, it loses the down-to-earth character that makes it appealing to me. YMMV. - Mischa Ye cannot serve G-d and Mammon. Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, or about your body, what you will wear. - Jesus ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 22:38:56 -0500 From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Global Interaction Without feeding the fire too much, I've always explained the apparent inconsistency between Alphatia's purported power and its actual position on the world stage in terms of its decadence and inherently chaotic, individualistic society. Regardless of how powerful a nation might be, none are free of crime or various weaknesses that sap its power (drugs, in our modern world, zzonga for Alphatia - I'm sure other Mystaran nations have their own drug cultures, though). IIRC, Aaron Allston et al went to great pains to explain how deadly zzonga addiction could be, and how strong of a hold it had on a fair portion of Alphatia's elite. That, surely, would sap the magical energies of many mages (but not all of them) - and it hardly exists outside of the empire, if we go by official sources. Equally, if not more, important is the highly individualistic nature of the empire. Each kingdom has its own agenda, and is not above going to war with its neighbours to prove a point (Randel and Bettellyn are prime examples) - this also drains an empire's resources. How often have these internal battles taken place? We don't know for sure, but the evidence is there, and, given the fair degree of autonomy exercisesd by many Alphatian kings and queens, it is likely that such battles are not an overly rare occurrence. Let's think again about the prevalence of magic in Alphatian culture - Alphatian civil wars would be *highly* destructive, with whole villages being reduced to slag in the crossfire. How long would it take to rebuild after a civil war, and how much in the way of resources would this require? Even when we step down from the macro to the micro level, individualism can hinder an empire like Alphatia, and, as DotE points out, it does (I'm referring to the discussion between Galatia and her tutor in the Player's Guide to Alphatia). So, when war beckons, I could see quite a few mages saying, "You want me to help in the war effort? I've got research to do!" So, in my view, I see Alphatia as a very powerful nation, but, due to its lack of internal cohesion, and significant vices in the upper classes, the empire's punch is quite a bit weaker than would otherwise be the case. In comparison, person for person, Thyatis would be a lot weaker, but it is a more driven and unified nation. Despite corruption in its own government, Thyatis nonetheless manages to project itself into the global arena at a power level greater than might be apparent at first glance. Thus, the two empires are pretty evenly matched. Those periods where Alphatia *did* throw its weight around probably coincide with periods when there was a strong emperor, turmoil in the surrounding regions, or a combination of the two. Anyhow, that's my 2 cents. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 15 Mar 2003 to 16 Mar 2003 (#2003-76) ***************************************************************