Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 18 Mar 2003 to 19 Mar 2003 (#2003-79) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 20/03/2003, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 10 messages totalling 495 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Global Interaction (7) 2. Web site update (3) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 11:43:42 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: Global Interaction > VIVE LA FRANCE!!! BUY FRENCH! LOVE FRENCH! Please keep these politically charged remarks off of a D&D mailing list which is international in nature. No remarks, it's my .sig text (and not just for MML, by the way). As far as I can see, it's not politically charged (excepting in some dudes' minds). It's a friendship-support campaign, and non-offensive. .sig text which is not excessively long and does not throw abuse on anybody is perfectly legal. Andrés ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 16:34:06 +0200 From: Eyal Fleminger Subject: Web site update The address for my web site has changed; it is now http://fleminge0.tripod.com/mystara.html (the old link leads to physics resources). _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 10:01:53 -0500 From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Global Interaction Andres wrote: > No remarks, it's my .sig text (and not just for MML, by the way). > As far as I can see, it's not politically charged (excepting in some dudes' > minds). It's a friendship-support campaign, and non-offensive. .sig text > which is not excessively long and does not throw abuse on anybody is > perfectly legal. That may be so, but there are many members on this List who may feel strongly about it, one way or the other. Even if it doesn't insult anyone, its message, and the current context, will lead many people to draw the connection (whether or not you intended this to be the case). I won't tell you to change your .sig, but just keep that in mind - that's all. Geoff PS - As an aside, I'll say up front that the debates being aired in the international arena have no place here. Some may argue that we could do so within a Mystaran context, but I'll err on the side of caution here, to forestall any flame war that might erupt. If any of you feel strongly about the upcoming war, and want to take issue with someone else on this List about it, I would ask that you do so in private emails only. If anyone has a problem with this decision, I'd be more than happy to hear their concerns and/or complaints. -- Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 16:48:24 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Web site update Hi Eyal, your website has alot of interesting stuff on it. I would be very interested in seeing some 3e conversions for some of this stuff, especially the weapons which are specific to Mystara. Are you up for it, or are you keeping this site strictly OD&D? Havard --- Eyal Fleminger skrev: > The address for my web site has changed; it is now > http://fleminge0.tripod.com/mystara.html (the old > link leads to physics > resources). > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months > FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 17:21:17 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: Global Interaction Subject: Re: Web site update Problem is that I don't _have_ 3e. I might have access to the 3e books in a few months, and if so I'll try my hand at such a conversion. OTOH, if someone else wants to do it, however, I'd be happy to host the results. Eyal > Hi Eyal, > your website has alot of interesting stuff on it. I > would be very interested in seeing some 3e conversions > for some of this stuff, especially the weapons which > are specific to Mystara. Are you up for it, or are you > keeping this site strictly OD&D? > > Havard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 00:12:33 +0100 From: DM Subject: Re: Global Interaction At Sun, 16 Mar 2003 12:23:32 -0500, Mischa Gelman preached to the masses: > > Can it be they enter a period of isolation because there's NOTHING left to > > conquer outside in their own solar system???? I very much believe so... > > Huh? That's certainly not the case presented in DoTE, regardless of what > you may believe or not. > "BC 3000: On the Alphatian's world, Alphatian aggression has gradually > been supplanted by Cypric self-absorption; otherplanetary conquests and > colonies are left to fend for themselves as Alphatian study of magic turns > inward." > They merely gave up their explorations and even deserted those lands > already conquered. This is withdrawal from the world, not ennui resulting > from defeating all obstacles. Pardon Mischa, but who tells you so? There is nothing to really support your view of the causes that led the Alphatians lose interest in the colonies as there is nothing directly supporting my theory. So I guess it's all a matter of perspectives. A nation could start losing interest in exploration if it has explored everything within its reach and become more interested in another kind of exploration, in this case exploration of magic and of self. I can't see where this logic is failing, but then again I could be blind. I never stated I have the truth in the palm of my hand: I'm merely expressing my doubts regarding certain views on Alphatian culture based on what's commonly known of Alphatian society from the scanty canon sources. > So giving up the colonies and letting them fend for themselves now equals > "pushing it as much as they could without losing resources." That's an > interesting read on things, worthy of Alphatian arrogance and dishonesty. Oh my! I bet if I was an Alphatian on this list I'd feel terribly insulted. Luckily there aren't many here around :p > At a time when the rest of the world was not nearly as advanced, yes. How > is this different from the success of numerous other empires in Mystaran > history - Thonia, Blackmoor, Nithia, etc. Once the rest of the world > caught up, though, Alphatia declined the same way these prior empires had. I beg to differ. Alphatia still has supremacy over many world countries due to its military forces and especially due to the Alphatian Sky Navy. I'm not making up numbers: go and read PWA Warmachine stats and then tell me that Alphatia's power is waning. > > >2 BC to 0 AC - Alphatia loses Thyatis, Ochalea, the Pearl Islands, and > about > > >half of the Isle of Dawn. [DotE] > > > > > In 2 years they lose what they gained in 300 years of warfare and > > conquests. Does it see so logical and realistic to you? > > Empires can collapse very quickly. See the Aztec Empire, the Soviet Union > and numerous other real world examples. Alphatia correlates well to the > USSR IMO - once one nation bucked the empire and showed it to be the paper > tiger it is, everyone else follows suit. The USSR collapsed mainly because of the world capitalist economy being against the communist economy as a whole (no DIRECT war between USSR and USA). The Aztec empire collapsed because the Conquistadores had better arms and superior equipment and had bacteriological weapons (i.e. European flu). But Ok, I can imagine they could do it against Alphatia exploiting the knowhow gained during the ages and the Alphatian indolence and internal conflicts.. (but if Alphatia had so many internal conflicts I wonder why it never really collapsed.. instead it's been doing fine for the last 2000 years... it sure is taking a long dying breath :p) > You're right. Alphatia from the beginning was presented as an overexpanded > empire which couldn't keep its colonies in line - our first introduction > to it in CM1 and M2. M1 verifies their history is one of collapse. When it > is later redesigned as a great power in DoTE and later sources, we laugh > at the inconsistency of such a claim given all we knew about it. Oh, do you mean Alphatia OR Atlantis as presented in that flawless module that's CM1? > That they could have cared less about middle-of-nowehre arctic wilderness > that held no strategic value? Oh, and if they couldn't care less, why the Thyatian interest in Norwold that led to the Norwold wars in the aforementioned CM1? > The fact that Norworld becomes independent in no time flat tells you > plenty though about Alphatia's power. They can claim territory from > nobody, but can't hold on to it. Or, could it be they couldn't give a damn about Norwold as much as Thyatis did? :p Maybe they reasoned it's not worth too much trouble after settling it and judging the pros and cons of ruling it directly? we can go on like this for a long time, since there aren't really many political sources to quote on this... > The very nature of fantasy worlds is that there is no such thing as easy > game, though, given the immense power that can be brought to bear by > immortal beings in support of territories that hold sentimental value. First Immortal Rule : Direct intervention in the Prime against mortals is FORBIDDEN, period. Can you quote some past Immortal intervention in clear favour of a "beloved" nation against another enemy? Not even Vanya did that during WotI! She always worked behind the scenes as a counselor of Thincol, and all she got was bringing Thyatis on the verge of collapse and causing Thincol's death. Doesn't strike me as particularly useful from the main patron of the most powerful nation in the KW... > Heck, look how well underarmed natives have fended off much stronger > nations in the real world - Vietnam, backed by Russia and China, exploiting their own peculiar territory to gain field supremacy. > Russia in Afghanistan, etc. Afghanistan backed by UK commandos providing them arms and military training to contain Russia's interest in Afghanistan. > Sentimentally motivated locals almost always have a chance against > arrogant foreigners in fantasy, let alone real life. Yeah, go tell the Native Americans, the Aztecs, the Australian aborigenes... > Also, the feasibility of maintaining long-range empires is poor. The > history of real-world empires in this mold is one of failure - just look > at how well Great Britain or Spain held on to their overseas territories. > The logistics are just too difficult. yes, I agree on this. But Great Britain held their territories for over 2 centuries... and without using any MAGIC or flying skyships!! ;) DM Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac Lt. Cmdr. of U.S.S. Unicorn "You don't stop playing because you grow old: you grow old because you stop playing!" Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967 And Mystara Italian Homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/9940 Join the Mystara Webring at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html Join the Starfleet Academy at: http://gioco.net/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 00:25:33 +0100 From: DM Subject: Re: Global Interaction At Mon, 17 Mar 2003 22:04:47 +0200, Alexis Vasileus insisted: > Yes, and he is considered a second-rate subject, merely a pet of the > Empress not really worth as much as the spellcasters. So, Torenal and Broderick command the most powerful warmachine of the world, but they're considered merely "pets". Well, I'd say they're darn powerful pets, don't you think? Don't you think they could prove a pain in the ass of the spellcasters if they decided to stage a coup against the wizard-rulers (considering how much mistreated and downtrodden those soldiers are)? I bet they wouldn't have many problems organizing a civil war using the military against the wizards, yet none of them did it. Maybe they were both magically dominated by the wizards?... or could it be they believed in the system they served because they were powerful enough to like it?... >You obey, but if you will remain a second-rate wog all your life, you are >not motivated to do your best. You just do what you have to and that's it. Exactly my point: you do what you have to do, be it in Thyatis, Alphatia, Ierendi or USA! How many soldiers do you think really love slaughtering people, conquering hills and obeyin to orders? Sure many may be well motivated, but the majority just hates it when they have to go to war. They do it coz it's their duty and it's their job and it's better than nothing and can't really disobey. ;) DM Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac Lt. Cmdr. of U.S.S. Unicorn "You don't stop playing because you grow old: you grow old because you stop playing!" Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967 And Mystara Italian Homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/9940 Join the Mystara Webring at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html Join the Starfleet Academy at: http://gioco.net/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 17:58:03 -0600 From: John Walter Biles Subject: Re: Global Interaction Times New RomanOn 18 Mar 03, at 11:56, Joaquin Menchaca wrote: Well, >As a soldier or citizen in USA (and probaly other >countries), we are all second-rate subjects depending >on your class. If you are poor, there's not many I'm afraid you are rather wrong on that. While I may not have the power which wealth gives, citizens in the modern democratic nations are equal under the law. In practice, having more money means more power, but it is not institutionalized the way it was in, say, old regime France or in Alphatia. There is no group of people in the USA who have more rights than I do, although there are plenty of people who have more power due to their wealth. > The same in Alphatian military. There's not much hope >one will be the ruling class from just a soldier. The In Alphatia, all you have to do is learn magic and poof, you're part of the ruling class. > ruling class was always a priviledge class. A soldier >might be bright enough to even learn magic, but still >cannot join the ruling class. The same is true of This is incorrect, you move upwards in social class the instant you learn magic in Alphatia. If you are talented enough, you could eventually become potent enough to join the Thousand Wizards and become a zzonga-crazed useless but potent lump of flesh like the rest of them. > easy to get into the court, but it was possible. The >Roman/Byzantine Empire was not as racist or classist >as northern cultures, where many people were pegged >into a paticular class. Those outside of the elite Actually, the late Roman empire had everyone frozen into their parent's occupation by Imperial decree. John Walter Biles : MA-History, ABD, Ph.D Candidate at U. Kansas ranma@falcon.cc.ukans.edu http://www.dkcomm.net/rhea/falcon.html rhea@maison-otaku.net http://maison-otaku.net/~rhea/ "That all princes shall kiss the foot of the Pope alone."--Dictatus Papae, 11th century ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 20:29:45 -0500 From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: Global Interaction > > VIVE LA FRANCE!!! BUY FRENCH! LOVE FRENCH! > > Please keep these politically charged remarks off of a D&D mailing list > which is international in nature. > > No remarks, it's my .sig text (and not just for MML, by the way). > As far as I can see, it's not politically charged (excepting in some dudes' > minds). It's a friendship-support campaign, and non-offensive. .sig text > which is not excessively long and does not throw abuse on anybody is > perfectly legal. Fine. You are entitled to your opinion. I will explain my remarks briefly and be done with it, since I wish to respect Geoff's wishes and not clog up the list with type of stuff. I would have replied directly, but I could not access your direct e-mail address from the message. Currently here in the U.S. there is quite a bit of anti-French sentiment, due to their perceived abandonment of a long time ally. There have been campaigns to boycott French products, to rename French fries "freedom fries", and other such things. In this light, your .sig can be interpreted as distinctly anti-American whether intended or not. It has the appearance of taking a pot shot at the end of your e-mail. Thus, your .sig has become poltically charged through no doing of your own, but due to the current world poltical situation. deustace@attbi.com ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 18 Mar 2003 to 19 Mar 2003 (#2003-79) ***************************************************************