Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 10 Jan 2004 to 11 Jan 2004 (#2004-12) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 12/01/2004, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 13 messages totalling 924 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. [Mystara-Spelljammer] Exiles Campaign Part 3: Coldspace 2. [Mystara-Spelljammer] Exiles Campaign Part 3: Coldspace 3. Thyatian Days of the Week (2) 4. [Mystara-Spelljammer] Exiles Campaign Part 3: Pillarspace 5. Question about Darokin (2) 6. Where in the world is Rahasia? (2) 7. Specualrum City Guard... (3) 8. Ships of the Karameikan Navy ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 12:21:11 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: [Mystara-Spelljammer] Exiles Campaign Part 3: Coldspace I could > probably package that up > and send it over to you (and anyone else) if you > want, or feel free to just > grab what you see straight from the MML. > You choose...just tell me what to do and I'll do it!! Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail: 6MB di spazio gratuito, 30MB per i tuoi allegati, l'antivirus, il filtro Anti-spam http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 08:52:05 -0800 From: John Calvin Subject: Re: [Mystara-Spelljammer] Exiles Campaign Part 3: Coldspace After taking a look at all of my notes I think it's going to take me quite a while to get organized. Posting to the list has helped a bit. For now though, you better just grab what you see. -John ===== Rule #85. I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button." from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 18:01:54 +0000 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Thyatian Days of the Week Eric Anondson wrote: >> Gromdain, Tserdain, Moldain, Nytdain, Loshdain >> >> My qusestion is: what do you suppose is the language of origin of >> these names of the days of the week? > > > Well, if they are meant to be from Immortals, Grom is pretty close to > Gorm (the Cynidicean Immortal). Nyt is Eusdria's name for Hel... > > Huh, -I'm- at a loss about what those name's origins are. The "dain" suffix is likely to be "day", which makes it a Neathar root. The two other days are based on Sol and Luna, which may pass as Thyatian words. Nyt can also be a deformation of Nyx and Grom, as said, can be Gorm. So this seem to put the names in the Cynidicea-Thyatis area. -- di nuovo come un tempo sopra l'Italia intera urla il vento e soffia la bufera ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 10:13:04 -0800 From: John Calvin Subject: [Mystara-Spelljammer] Exiles Campaign Part 3: Pillarspace Pillarspace (Elemental Sphere) General Properties: A pillar of flame extends along the inner axis of the sphere to form this shell’s sun. Three planets orbit the pillar along the innermost orbital paths. They are all geo-synchronous orbits which means that the same face points toward the pillar at all times. Each planet orbits at a different speed, with the innermost planet having the fastest path, the outermost the next fastest, and the middle planet the slowest path. These planets are inhabited by the Dragon Ruled carnifex and are constantly making either war or trade with one another. Alliances shift furiously as the dragon lords vie for dominance. Secundus: Secundus is the innermost planet. It travels around the pillar once every year. Due to its fast orbit around the pillar, Secundus has easy access to each of the resources from around Pillarspace. Sucundus is the smallest of the inner planets and its proximity to the pillar makes it the hottest planet in the sphere. Its surface is pock marked with volcanic craters. There are no seas on Secundus, although there are half a dozen large (and very salty) lakes. Salt mining is the most common activity on Secundus. Its other resources include silica (found in the vast equatorial deserts and used to make all manner of glass products), marble, and gemstones of all types. Once every year Secundus aligns itself with each of the other inner planets. These are times of trade and of great celebrations. Hourus: Hourus is the middle, as well as the largest, of the inner planets. It travels around the pillar once every 3600 years. Due to its slow orbit, Hourus has a difficult time gathering resources from around Pillarspace. Once every year (when Hourus aligns with Secundus) a major merchant fair occurs where merchants from all around Secundus travel to Hourus to sell their wares. Minutus: Minutus is the outermost planet, and the middle in size. It travels around the pillar once every 60 years. Due to its slow orbit, Minutus has a difficult time gathering resources from around Pillarspace. Once every year (when Minutus aligns with Secundus) a major merchant fair occurs where merchants from all around Secundus travel to Minutus to sell their wares. This festival is only slightly less grand than the one that occurs on Hourus. All three planets align “north” of the pillar (at 12 o’clock) once every 43200 years. It is said that that occurrence will signify catastrophes across the sphere, although the exact nature of the catastrophe is unknown. The Shards: The “shards” are large stationary planetoids that are positioned at 3 o’clock from the north of the pillar. There are over two dozen large shards and several hundred smaller ones all hanging in a line in space from one of the crystal sphere’s hemispheres to the other. The larger shards appear nearer the crystal shell while the smaller shards appear near the sphere’s equator. Some speculate that the shards were once a gigantic pillar of stone that was shattered by some great catastrophe. All of the larger shards, and many of the smaller ones, maintain their own gravity and atmosphere. Outside of the inner planets, the shards are the most populous locale in the sphere. Life: There are few to no native life forms living in the shards. They could have possible existed before, but whatever catastrophe happened here decimated them long ago. Carnifex free traders often make one of the smaller shards their temporary home base. These carnifex roam the sphere fighting one another and trading goods from one planet to the next. A few permanent communities have sprung up here and there in order to exploit the resources of this place. Many of the shards contain quantities of ore, and some of the larger ones sport sparse forests. Imperial strongholds (supported by the inner planets) also exist here in order to protect the dragon’s rights (read impose taxes) and insure that the resources of this place keep flowing freely towards the center of the sphere. Sheens often make incursions into this sphere, and when they do, this is where they head. There may be several hidden sheen colonies operating in the shards at any given time, but the Carnifex do a fairly thorough job of cleaning out their cysts whenever they are found. Sheen cysts are a good place to harvest raw materials from. Some of the sheen cysts are actually “managed” by the carnifex, much as a beehive would be. The carnifex let the sheens do all of the work, and then they come in and remove the coveted ores (and the pesky warrior sheens). The Columns: The “columns” are a vast network of watery columns that stretch across the sphere at 6 o’clock from the north of the pillar. There are a dozen stable columns and 3 times as many unstable columns at any one time. Water currents flow from one column and into the next in an intricate pattern. The closer one gets to the crystal sphere, the colder the waters become, until at last a portion of them is frozen solid. Two of the stable columns are frozen solid, while another 3 are partially frozen with massive continent sized icebergs floating through their waters. All of the other columns have frozen ends (where they come into contact with the crystal sphere) and minor iceberg flows. The columns that are closest to the Pillar are quite tropical in temperature. These columns also support large floating vegetative masses, many of which are stable enough to form communities on. The columns maintain their own gravity, which points from the surface of each column inward to its core. Each column also maintains a thin layer of breathable atmosphere, although the void separates those columns that are far enough apart. Food and water are plenty in the Columns, but other resources are quite scarce. Lumber is foremost on the list of needed goods, because it is used in building the ships that sail the seas. Native Life: Water elementals abound on this planet, traveling through the liquid columns. Sea creatures (many quite large) are numerous and travel throughout the columns, some migrating from the warmer columns to the cooler ones and back again. The more tropical columns are teaming with plant life as well as animal life, and that fact can be evidenced by their slightly greenish coloration. Undines live in the deepest reaches of the columns and there are several competing empires of the creatures there. Sea and storm giants make their homes in waters closer to the surface and on some of the larger icebergs. Frost giants live among the icebergs as well as near the columnar tips where the waters are perpetually frozen. Rhemorhaz, frost salamanders, and other cold loving creatures also dwell in the ice. Non-Native Life: Clans of white dragons and their servants make their homes in the colder, more frozen reaches of the columns. Their slaves toil to mine blocks of ice that will be sent around to supply water to the rest of the sphere. The white dragons make war among themselves, as well as with their frost giant neighbors. Carnifex strongholds are numerous in the more temperate columns, where their slaves and servitors live on the vast vegetative mats that float on the surface of the waters. Fishing fleets constantly set out and return with catches of fish. Hunting vessels often put out to sea for larger prey. Both types of goods are shipped across the sphere. The slaves in these fishing communities come from all backgrounds. Many of the spoils of war that have been claimed by the carnifex, end up here. It is not uncommon to see an elf working beside a Blackmoorian and a goblin. Here, all the slaves have a common goal – survival, and for the most part they work together. A few black and green dragons also live in the temperate columns, although for the most part they are considered outcasts or misfits. There is not much in the columns that holds the interest of most dragons. Sea dragons also live here, but they usually hold themselves apart from the greater dragon/carnifex society. The Vortex: The “vortex” is a massive storm that stretches across the sphere at 9 o’clock from the north of the pillar. Violent storms plague this area, although the air is fresh and breathable. Deep inside of the vortex are several calm areas where ships can seek shelter among the roiling clouds. NPCs: Dragons and carnifex dominate this sphere, and many of the major players in Pillarspace hail from those races. Sas’siill Leader of the Fire Eye clan, Sas’siill leads his people across the sphere through a very profitable migration route. The Fire Eye clan is based out of Secundus. Their ships trek to each of the stable outer planets as Secundus nears them in its orbit around the pillar. Once there the clan loads up on supplies that are in abundance on that world, and then brings them back to their clan holding. Sas’siill’s real profits come from the merchant fairs that happen twice a year on Secundus. Some of the younger clan members are growing restless with the mercantile lifestyle however and are beginning to seek employment with various dragon empires on the inner planets. Sas’siill discourages this for it removes power and prestige from the clan, but in reality there is little he can do. Lak-9 Although nearly 2 millennia old, Lak-9 has only recently immigrated to this sphere. He is one of the ancient Blackmoorian constructs that rebelled from his creators so long ago. Several decades ago Lak-9 fled from his original crystal sphere when his minions lost dominance to another sheen cyst. Now he controls a small and secretive cyst located in the Shards. Lak-9 has plans to investigate some of the Carnifex “domesticated” sheen cysts in the shards and hopes to one day gain control of them himself. If he can manage to wrest control of several of the cysts at once he believes that he will be able to wield enough power to fend off the dragons and their Carnifex lackeys. Then he will turn his eyes back to Blackmoorian held space. Haugrissyl As emperor of nearly a third of Secundus, this ancient and venerable red dragon wields power that is nearly unrivalled in the entire sphere. His empire stretches even as far as the frozen shards where many of the white dragons there pay him homage (or suffer the consequences). Old age has taken its toll on Haugrissyl however and he is becoming ever more insecure about maintaining his position of power. In a bid to strengthen his hold on Secundus, the ancient red dragon has turned to the worship of the Outer Beings. In dreams they urged Haugrissyl to establish the first of the “domesticated” sheen colonies on the Columns, and without a doubt the Outer Beings have some unfathomable plans regarding them. Fengriss A half carnifex, half dragon offspring of the emperor Haugrissyl, Fengriss is a creature of much ambition. Over the past several decades he has been recruiting Carnifex from the free clans into his own personal army. He plans on using this army to conquer territories outside of Pillarspace. Unlike his father, Fengriss shuns the Outer Beings. He subscribes to the philosophy that the Carnifex (himself included) are the most powerful force in the multiverse and so should not bow down before any other entities. Once he can build up a power reserve he will turn against his father and try to wrest control of the Secundus territories from him. Telwin Stardown Telwin is an elf working in a slave labor camp on one of the columns. He has managed to build up trust among the other slaves (from goblinoids to Blackmoorians), and is trying to organize an escape. He knows that there is nowhere he could hide on the columns, and so is waiting for the right opportunity to steal a spelljamming vessel. ===== Rule #85. I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button." from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:43:23 +0000 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Question about Darokin Thibault Sarlat wrote: > > In a way, what i don't understand is why such an > "imperialistic" and rich nation is not naturally > inclined to conquer some lands after it conquered > markets. The real world republic of Gena in italy has > made this and i think it was taken as an exemple for > the creation of Darokin. I think Venice is a better example than Genua, which had little more than a strip of coastline. Venice indeed expanded into the mainland around the city, in order to control food sources and perhaps even more sources of wood for their ships. Anyway, Darokin's economy is not so near those of the Italian city-states, since those were mostly sea powers, and Darokin is a land, caravan-based merchant state, like perhaps those of central asia. > It is as if Darokin had been put under some powerful > geas not to expend its borders. Most nations of the KW > always try to extend their borders with the exception > of few reclusive ones or at lest they would not lose > an opportunity to do so. The problem with Darokin's border is that they have some very dangerous borders (Broken Lands, Sind, Shadow Elves after 1007 AC). Basically, their military is unable to expand into the neighbouring lands, while their naval power is minimal -- most Darokinian Houses are land-based traders and producers of goods. Moreover, their neighbours are aggressive naval powers (Ierendi, Minrothad, 5 Shires) who are not above resorting to piracy to stop Darokin. Therefore, I suppose it is more likely for Darokinian merchants to cross Sind to reach Slagovich than to use a sea route. Bye, GP -- di nuovo come un tempo sopra l'Italia intera urla il vento e soffia la bufera ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:15:29 +0000 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Where in the world is Rahasia? Chris Cherrington wrote: > > Of course the Night of Long Knives kept a > lot of human interpretation of ancient events pretty quiet > (convenient if you ask me, are elves really allergic to lycanthropy, > or is that another lie they spread to keep the visage that humans > need to be exterminated when it comes to telling the truth, I mean > lycanthropy). Due to their long lives, the elves probably know much about lycanthropy, especially Taymoran strains, since they were already in the region during the Taymoran age. Myself, I think the Water Elves do have something to hide -- their pale complexion and hair are unlikely to be due to Shadow Elf influence, since at that time the SE did not even exist. Perhaps, the Water elves deals with the Taymoran went a bit too far, and they interbred somewhat with the Taymorans or with their albino servant race (the ancestors of the modern Ierendi albinoes)? Or were subject to some kind of magical experiment not unlike the one that created the Ierendi albinoes? In any case, I suspect that in addition to their weird looks, there might be more they have preserved from the Taymoran age, and which they keep secret from the humans and dwarves and halflings. Perhaps even a secret Taymoran cult might survive, well hidden under the veil of the religious tolerance of the Guilds. > Could the elves really even be two clans seperated by > sinking lands and "re-found" or actualy seperatists from Ilsundal, > followers of Eirendyl that stayed in Minrothad and not continue to > Alphatia? AFAIK, they were followers of Eyrindul that left the migration in what is now Minrothad and western Thyatis. At the time, there was no sea between Minrothad and the mainland. However, after the sinking of Taymora, much of these elven lands were destroyed, leaving the Meditor clan isolated in Minrothad, and the Verdier clan on an overpopulated coastal region, which at some point they left to rejoin their relatives in the southern islands. IMO the Vyalia were the northernmost group of these separatist elves -- which are all related, Sheyallia, Verdier/Meditor/Vyalia, and Shiye. Bye, GP -- di nuovo come un tempo sopra l'Italia intera urla il vento e soffia la bufera ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 20:33:22 +0000 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Thyatian Days of the Week Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > > The "dain" suffix is likely to be "day", which makes it a Neathar root. > The two other days are based on Sol and Luna, which may pass as Thyatian > words. Nyt can also be a deformation of Nyx and Grom, as said, can be > Gorm. So this seem to put the names in the Cynidicea-Thyatis area. Nyx and Grom could be Doulakki or Thyatian variants of the Milenian and Cynidicean names, BTW. Loshdain is more difficult. Perhaps the name Loshad could be related? It was the name of the Chevall in B10, IIRC. For Tserdain, I have no ideas... -- di nuovo come un tempo sopra l'Italia intera urla il vento e soffia la bufera ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 14:36:16 -0800 From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Where in the world is Rahasia? >> Due to their long lives, the elves probably know much about lycanthropy, especially Taymoran strains, since they were already in the region during the Taymoran age. Myself, I think the Water Elves do have something to hide -- their pale complexion and hair are unlikely to be due to Shadow Elf influence, since at that time the SE did not even exist. Perhaps, the Water elves deals with the Taymoran went a bit too far, and they interbred somewhat with the Taymorans or with their albino servant race (the ancestors of the modern Ierendi albinoes)? Or were subject to some kind of magical experiment not unlike the one that created the Ierendi albinoes? << Dang Giampaolo, this is just about the best idea I've heard in a long while. Consider it stolen. The water elves are going to end up being lycanthropic, Taymoran, Entropy worshipers. Makes for a nice twist as far as I'm concerned. -John ===== Rule #85. I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button." from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 15:12:30 -0800 From: Brendan Corliss Subject: Specualrum City Guard... As part of my ongoing attempt to flesh out Karameikos (specifically the military), I'm working on the Guard Phorsis (aka 1st Division - Specularum City Guard). GAZ1 states that the Guard Phorsis has 4 companies spread acroos the city in 8 guardhouses with 1 squad each and 4 guardhouses with 2 squads each. This would mean that there are 12 guardhouses in Specularum. The key for map confirms this (as does the one for K:KoA), stating that it shows 8 of the 12 guardhouses (entry #8). I, however, can only locate 7 of these 8 guardhouses: The Riverfort, one at the Sea Gates, The Hightower, one at the North Road gate, one at Coastal Road gate, one at the Farmer's Road gate, and one at the Westron Road gate. Am I just blind, or are there really only 7 shown? I would assume they meant to put one at the Dukes' Road gate but there's no symbol there (on either map). Above and beyond this, there should be (at least) 4 more guardhouses in the city that have never been given a location. This led me to try to organize the unit somewhat as I placed the other guardhouses: 1st Division, Specularum City Guard aka "Guard Phorsis" Captain - Mikel Bartok 1st Company, Eastguard Lieutenant - Reuben Fausto The Hightower (2 squads) The Sea Gate The Old Quarter Guardhouse 2nd Company, Northguard Lieutenant - Darja Kartashkin The Riverfort (2 squads) Duke's Road Gate North Road Gate 3rd Company, Westguard Lieutenant - Roland Kessler The Hill Guardhouse (2 squads) The Bricktop Guardhouse Westron Road Gate 4th Company, Southguard Lieutenant - Anna Nemetorius Southend Guardhouse (2 squads) Coastal Road Gate Farmer's Road Gate Any thoughts on this? Has anybody else dealt with this particular issue in their campaign? Maybe someone who has run B6 - Joaquin? Or someone who has written several adventures set in Specularum - Ville? -Damon ===== May all your endeavors be Gold! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:17:20 +1300 From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Ships of the Karameikan Navy > > Now on the note of 8 ships: Gaz1 says 8 "ships of the line". So that > > is 8 ships big enough to be used in the line of battle. > > Quoting http://www.cronab.demon.co.uk/INTRO.HTM : > > "Only 1st rates, 100 or more guns, 2nd rates, 90 or 94 guns and 3rd > > rates, 74 or 80 guns, were powerful enough to fight in the line of battle." > Kind of true... There were also the unfortunate ships that fit in > between the third rates and the frigates that were sometimes placed > in the line of battle. 60's and 50's were known. can't say I know that much about it. I just thought it was a nice illistration of what "ships of the line" might mean. of course we are not dealing with gun armed ships though so the quote is not actually useful other then to help understand the term ships of the line. > I might be tempted to take a bit of a step back here, and address the > title 'line of battle' ship. > > The line of battle is simply a means by which all ships can bring their > guns to bear on a foe. The ships stay in a line, face off against another > line and they slug it out. Until Nelson came along with some different > tactics at the Battle of St. Vincent, breaking from the 'line of battle' was > something that a captain simply didn't do. As a result few fleet engagements > were all that decisive. > > A war galley is a very, verry different creature. It doesn't handle so > well as a windjammer, instead being built for rapid birsts of speed to ram > or board opposing vessels; look, for example, at ancient Greek triremes, > with three ranks of oarsmen (all free citizens, not slaves) giving > unimaginable power to the ram. The 'line' of battle would, I'd have thought, > be a very poor way of bringing such weapons to bear. Quoting from: http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_text_wsd_sec112.htm >>> "112. The Tactics of a Naval Battle.--Imagination can now picture a Greek naval battle, fifty, a hundred, two hundred, or more of these splendid battleships flying in two hostile lines to the charge.[*] Round and round they will sail, each pilot watching the moment when an unlucky maneuver by the foe will leave a chance for an attack; and then will come the sudden swinging of the helm, the frantic "Pull hard!" to the oarsmen, the rending crash and shock as the ram tears open the opponents side, to be followed by almost instant tragedy. If the direct attack on the foe's broadside fails, there is another maneuver. Run down upon your enemy as if striking bow to bow; the instant before contact let your aim swerve--a little. Then call to your men to draw in their oars like lightning while the enemy are still working theirs. If your oarsmen can do the trick in time, you can now ride down the whole of the foemen's exposed oar bank, while saving your own. He is left crippled and helpless, like a huge centipede with all the legs on one side stripped away. You can now back off deliberately, run out your oars, an in cold blood charge his exposed flank. If he does not now surrender, his people are dead men. Excellent to describe! Not always so excellent in performance. Everything depends on the perfect discipline and handiness of your crew."<<< so it appears that they encountered side on, in a line, essentially like circling an opponent as you would in a boxing ring, until you see an oppitunity and try to take it by sudden change in course and speed. oh and on the note of slaves I ran across this: http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_text_wsd_sec113.htm >>> "113. The Naval Strength of Athens.--The strength of Athens is still upon the sea. Despite her defeats in the Peloponnesian War she has again the first navy in Hellas. All in all she can send out 400 triremes and since each trireme represents a crew of over 200 men, this means that Athens can dispose of over 80,000 souls in her navy, whereof, however, only a minor fraction are Athenian citizens."<<< so perhaps not all free citizens then? > So what is the 'line of battle' on Mystara? It depends more or less on the opponents. Sea bassed combat I think would quite likely be as above, as magic does little dammage to the ship itself and most warships could shelter most of the men on board. Of course fire magic might do some severe dammage to a sailing ships manoverability. In the sea of dread however I think it would be very much like mediterainian naval warfare. > The best clue is in the Princess Ark boxed set, > with a large Alphatian vessel being detailed. This one is > a flying vessel, but it still carries lines of heavy ballista on either > side of the ship. It's a windjammer, so it needs hands for setting sail, > handling ship, etc, but it'll be packed full of men primarily as weapon crews. flying vessels would need to do this as sinking the opponent with a ram or such is not an option and as they are more manoverable then their sea going companions they are also less likely to be rammed. > Mystara requires very subtle handling of ship tactics. Suppose, for the > moment, that highly strung, powerful ballistas and catapults are being > constructed with a range of greater than 250 yards. Not impossible. agreed. A captian would need to be well versed in tactics for different opponents. as for ranges: ballistas, large: 100/200/300 catapult, light: 200/250/300 catapult, heavy: 250/325/400 so all can fire well over 250 yards. A small or large galley can have 2-3 light catapults, a war gally can have 3-4. A large sailing ship can have 2-3 light or heavy catapults. But that is not a lot of firepower compared to a canon equipped warship. Ships could also carry ballistas, although I don't know how many, and marrines would likely have bows handy as they close for battle. but these smaller weapons would only be anti-personal weapons leaving ship damage to be caused by ramming and the catapults. This likely applies to most magic as well. > The best > range most opposing mages might offer is going to be around 240 yards > (give or take an area of effect). That means that the artilleryman rules > the long range battle, but magic heavy nations (Alphatia, Minrothad and > even Thyatis) might carry some dangerous, short range wizards. Which might encourage boarding actions as powerful mages might be quite unlikely to go down with the ship and more troops may be needed to re-enforce the main ships crew in a boarding action. thus being borne into battle in smaller faster ships. Additionaly a large sailing ship can carry catapaults, but it appears that a troop transport cannot so extra supplies may need to be carried on seperate ships when marrines are aboard a sailing ship. > There's -clear- advantage in the Karameikan navy keeping well out of > the range of such wizards, so they need fast, handy ships that can get to > the vunerable points in their foes defense (off the fore and aft, to 'rake' > their foes with shot that can fly through the light internal bulkheads > and along the full length of the deck, while being exposed to less of their > opponents weaponry). That said, should their opponents close with them > to spell range they'll want to close the remaining distance -fast-, to > bring on a boarding action. the problem with that is that raking and such tactics really requires a lot of broadside guns which simply do not exist. so those tactics go out the window to a large degree. > Something not unike the three masted Minrothadan clippers might also be > appropriate, fast, handy and bristling with ballista below deck and > with heavy catapuls above deck. These ships would be well capable of fighting > in a 'line of battle', but should opponents rush them or get within > spellcasting range they can change their tactic, and swarm from the line > to take up aggressive attacking positions on their opponents most > vunerable points. well the clipper only has up to 3 artilery pieces, so I'm not sure about the bristling bit, and they are above deck. They are good in their artilery complement for their size, and are fast, but carry less troops then a large sailing ship so are not as good for boarding, but would make excellent support ships. I'm not sure that they could take on a war galley though. > That's fine if we view the ship merely as a means of conveying infantry; > I tend to think that such a naval force would be mincemeat if against any > determined foe. Well you are right that the small troop transports are not really that useful except for boarding and suviving (up to 120 HP). Their only other use would be to provide archer support, but they would not tend engage other warships on their own, but would be useful as coastgaurd type ships as the men could board and search merchant vessels suspected of smuggling, piracy, or slave trading. and so are not without a purpose. Essentally what I suggested means that karameikos has 8 ships that it takes into battle and a serries of smaller vessels that help preform the more routine tasks. As for it as a naval power, Minrothad only has 10 ships in it's navy (although it does have privateers too). And to conquer karameikos you would need a army more then a navy. > I'm more of a mind to ignore what was n GAZ1 in favour of a more > believable, > defensible naval structure. I'll try to get round to doing some > calculations > on how many crew would be needed on the kind of ship I'm suggesting. I'd be interested to see that, but if you are going to go down that path we would have to have some structure behind it. IMO karameikos would have a very thyatian view of sea warfare, and they tend towards galleys as their main ship. As you point out it wasn't until Nelson that gun based navys deviated from lineing up and shooting at each other. You have to remember they may not know a better way even if it seems obvious to us with a whole history of experience behind us. I don't see too many problems with what I proposed as there are 90 men on a small galley 250 on a large galley and only 30 on a small troop transport, so when you look at it the small transports are tiny little things and not really war ships. To have those 20 marrines on another ship would be a much larger investment of resources, and you would still need small ships of that kind anyway. Additionally this is standing navy, not a wartime force which would be quite different. feel free to pose alternatives, I was just trying to make sence of what the gaz's tell us, while not having it be rediculous, and not having to deviate much. The only other way's I could see (which did not seem reasonable to me anyway) were to have each company on a war galley (@ 330 non-fighting men per ship) or have some marrines double as sailors on either large galleys or sailing ships, or have some men stay at port. With what I suggested the whole navy is mobile. Chris. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:09:57 +1300 From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Specualrum City Guard... Quoting Brendan Corliss : > GAZ1 states that the Guard Phorsis has 4 companies > spread acroos the city in 8 guardhouses with 1 squad > each and 4 guardhouses with 2 squads each. This would > mean that there are 12 guardhouses in Specularum. The > key for map confirms this (as does the one for K:KoA), > stating that it shows 8 of the 12 guardhouses (entry > #8). I, however, can only locate 7 of these 8 > guardhouses: The Riverfort, one at the Sea Gates, The > Hightower, one at the North Road gate, one at Coastal > Road gate, one at the Farmer's Road gate, and one at > the Westron Road gate. Am I just blind, or are there > really only 7 shown? I would assume they meant to put > one at the Dukes' Road gate but there's no symbol > there (on either map). I can't see 8 either. I would assume you are right though. > Above and beyond this, there should be (at least) 4 > more guardhouses in the city that have never been > given a location. This led me to try to organize the > unit somewhat as I placed the other guardhouses: > The Old Quarter Guardhouse > The Hill Guardhouse (2 squads) > The Bricktop Guardhouse > Southend Guardhouse (2 squads) seems ok to me. Although the hill and brcktop might not need 3 squads as the dukes gaurd can support the Guard Phorsis here. You might consider moving the hill or bricktop gaurdhouse to the merchant district to protect the traders. Chris. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 18:25:15 -0800 From: Brendan Corliss Subject: Re: Specualrum City Guard... --- Chris Furneaux wrote: > seems ok to me. Although the hill and brcktop might > not need 3 squads as the > dukes gaurd can support the Guard Phorsis here. You > might consider moving the > hill or bricktop gaurdhouse to the merchant district > to protect the traders. Thanks, Chris. You're probably right. Sure, the rich folks are gonna have a disproportionate amount of protection, but it might make more sense to switch it around like this: 1st Division, Specularum City Guard aka "Guard Phorsis" Captain - Mikel Bartok 1st Company, Eastguard Lieutenant - Reuben Fausto The Hightower (2 squads) The Sea Gate Merchant Quarter Guardhouse 2nd Company, Northguard Lieutenant - Darja Kartashkin The Riverfort (2 squads) Duke's Road Gate North Road Gate 3rd Company, Westguard Lieutenant - Roland Kessler The Hill Guardhouse (2 squads) Westron Road Gate Farmer's Road Gate 4th Company, Southguard Lieutenant - Anna Nemetorius Southend Guardhouse (2 squads) Old Quarter Guardhouse Coastal Road Gate I think that balances it out a little better. It still keeps a pretty heavy presense in the upscale area but puts 3 squads pretty centrally located (Merchant District & Hightower) for versatility. Your comment about the Duke's Guard assisting the Guard Phorsis brings up an interesting point, though. Doesn't the size of the Duke's Guard seem a bit excessive? I mean, c'mon, it's the same size as the Guard Phorsis(!) & that's not even throwing the Elvenguard into the mix! GAZ1 states their duties as protecting the Duke's stronghold in times of assault, assising the Guard Phorsis in times of trouble, and providing the Duke's personal bodyguards from within its ranks. Even assuming that they take a more active role in assisting the City Guard (totally logical), that seems like an awfully large unit without much to do most of the time. Is there something someone else read into it that I missed? Am I just not being realistic? -Damon ===== May all your endeavors be Gold! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 02:44:36 +0000 From: adrian mattias Subject: Re: Question about Darokin > From: Giampaolo Agosta >> > The problem with Darokin's border is that they have some very dangerous > borders (Broken Lands, Sind, Shadow Elves after 1007 AC). > Basically, their military is unable to expand into the neighbouring > lands, while their naval power is minimal -- most Darokinian Houses are > land-based traders and producers of goods. > Moreover, their neighbours are aggressive naval powers (Ierendi, > Minrothad, 5 Shires) who are not above resorting to piracy to stop > Darokin. Therefore, I suppose it is more likely for Darokinian merchants > to cross Sind to reach Slagovich than to use a sea route. > Which suggests that the Darokinian economy would be taking a nosedive. If a commerce empire is unable to use military force to protect its monopolies on trade, then it is doomed. The Venetians and the Dutch both encountered this problem after a long period of successful trade. The only way to get around it, is to attempt the difficult transition from commerce to conquest strategies. Venice tried this once it was no longer earning monopoly profits from trade as Giampaolo notes. However, it was unable to do this better than the other Italian states who had been involved in warfare more than trade for quite some time. The Dutch had the same problem, as did Carthage when it found that Rome was intent on taking apart its empire in the southern mediterranean, in Sicily and in Spain. None of these empires could move quickly or successfully enough to the conquest strategy to avoid annhilation. Examples of commerce societies that successfully made the transition are Athens in the 5th Century BC, England (England went from conquest (14th-15th C) back to commerce in 16th-17th Centuries and was beginning to transfer back to conquest (in India and elsewhere) before the Industrial Revolution intervened). What this all means for Darokin IMO is that Darokin has to convert to a conquest empire, try to take out Sind, Glantri, Karameikos etc, otherwise its wealth and influence will slowly decline until it eventually collapses ... _________________________________________________________________ Hot chart ringtones and polyphonics. Go to http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilemania/default.asp ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 10 Jan 2004 to 11 Jan 2004 (#2004-12) ***************************************************************