Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 11 Jan 2004 to 12 Jan 2004 (#2004-13) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 13/01/2004, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 3 messages totalling 495 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Ships of the Karameikan Navy 2. [Mystara-Spelljammer] Exiles Campaign Part 3: Emberspace 3. Where in the world is Rahasia? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:02:23 -0000 From: Colin Davidson Subject: Re: Ships of the Karameikan Navy > can't say I know that much about it. I just thought it was a nice illistration > of what "ships of the line" might mean. of course we are not dealing with gun > armed ships though so the quote is not actually useful other then to help > understand the term ships of the line. Indeed. I wonder whether the analogy between gun-armed windjammers and ships on Mystara might not be a bad one, though. Artillery on Mystara is pretty potent. > Quoting from: > http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_text_wsd_sec112.htm > >>>"112. The Tactics of a Naval Battle.--Imagination can now picture a Greek > naval battle, fifty, a hundred, two hundred, or more of these splendid > battleships flying in two hostile lines to the charge.[*] Round and round they > will sail, each pilot watching the moment when an unlucky maneuver by the foe > will leave a chance for an attack; and then will come the sudden swinging of > the helm, the frantic "Pull hard!" to the oarsmen, the rending crash and shock > as the ram tears open the opponents side, to be followed by almost instant > tragedy. If the direct attack on the foe's broadside fails, there is another > maneuver. Run down upon your enemy as if striking bow to bow; the instant > before contact let your aim swerve--a little. Then call to your men to draw in > their oars like lightning while the enemy are still working theirs. If your > oarsmen can do the trick in time, you can now ride down the whole of the > foemen's exposed oar bank, while saving your own. He is left crippled and > helpless, like a huge centipede with all the legs on one side stripped away. > You can now back off deliberately, run out your oars, an in cold blood charge > his exposed flank. If he does not now surrender, his people are dead men. > Excellent to describe! Not always so excellent in performance. Everything > depends on the perfect discipline and handiness of your crew."<<< > > so it appears that they encountered side on, in a line, essentially like > circling an opponent as you would in a boxing ring, until you see an oppitunity > and try to take it by sudden change in course and speed. It's not that they encountered side on, it's more that unlike in the days of cannon where your weakest points were your bow and stern (to expose your ship to raking fire could mean suffering horrible damage), the weak points were port and starboard. The way to avoid taking horrible damage wasn't to stay in line (a line of ships could suffer horribly against a determined foe, if that was the tactic) but was to avoid anyone getting at your flank. This is fascinating stuff, but what makes it even more fascinating is the effect of deadly magic at close range; who wants to eat a fireball through an oar port! Such a spell would do horrendous damage as it swelled out between decks! We need to rethink galley tactics entirely in Mystara. > oh and on the note of slaves I ran across this: > http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_text_wsd_sec113.htm > >>>"113. The Naval Strength of Athens.--The strength of Athens is still upon > the sea. Despite her defeats in the Peloponnesian War she has again the first > navy in Hellas. All in all she can send out 400 triremes and since each trireme > represents a crew of over 200 men, this means that Athens can dispose of over > 80,000 souls in her navy, whereof, however, only a minor fraction are Athenian > citizens."<<< > so perhaps not all free citizens then? All depends; in ancient Greece war was a citizens business, it wasn't done to take slaves. And when you think about it, the usefulness of slaves in a boarding action is somewhat limited. If I'm not mistaken, in the period you're referring to that would be a navy of the Athenian leage, as opposed to Athens? I'll ask my other half about this later on... She's a classical scholar, whereas I'm a humble microbiologist. > It depends more or less on the opponents. Sea bassed combat I think would quite > likely be as above, as magic does little dammage to the ship itself and most > warships could shelter most of the men on board. I beg to differ. A well placed fireball in a trireme would wipe out most of the sailors. So you could go bow-on to your opponent, thus making your oarsmen safe, and then of course a lightning bolt will run the whole length of your deck. Magic is very, very effective at killing at mid range, and that would have to change tactics. Just think of the damage that could be done by melting the pins that give free motion to the rudder, think how nasty it would be if your stern was ice stormed and your rudder was frozen. A competent, intelligent mage could ruin your whole day. > Of course fire magic might do > some severe dammage to a sailing ships manoverability. In the sea of dread > however I think it would be very much like mediterainian naval warfare. In my own campaign, the major sea powers have developed various ways of limiting this damage. Rigging will still burn, but at a much slower rate. > flying vessels would need to do this as sinking the opponent with a ram or such > is not an option and as they are more manoverable then their sea going > companions they are also less likely to be rammed. Actually, if you look at the MF (manoevering factor) of a large flying vessel like that, it's comparable with a well handled windjammer. They're not really any less likely to be rammed, should their foes choose to ram them. The main tactic of the Retebius Air Fleet and the Knights of the Air would be to close to melee range and swarm over Alphatian vessels, rather like a galley going at a windjammer. > > Mystara requires very subtle handling of ship tactics. Suppose, for the > > moment, that highly strung, powerful ballistas and catapults are being > > constructed with a range of greater than 250 yards. Not impossible. > > agreed. A captian would need to be well versed in tactics for different > opponents. as for ranges: > ballistas, large: 100/200/300 > catapult, light: 200/250/300 > catapult, heavy: 250/325/400 > so all can fire well over 250 yards. > > A small or large galley can have 2-3 light catapults, a war gally can have 3-4. > A large sailing ship can have 2-3 light or heavy catapults. > But that is not a lot of firepower compared to a canon equipped warship. Ahh, but that's if you limit yourself to the simple designs in the rulebooks; look at the armaments on the Alphatian man of war, it carries a broadside of artillery that would trouble any galley. > Ships could also carry ballistas, although I don't know how many, and marrines > would likely have bows handy as they close for battle. but these smaller > weapons would only be anti-personal weapons leaving ship damage to be caused by > ramming and the catapults. This likely applies to most magic as well. A ballista doesn't have to be solely an anti-personnel weapon. There were, in the Roman era, many rock throwing ballistas that could make a real mess of rigging, masts, even hulls. Imagine iron ballista balls hurled at huge speed across the see; a windjammer with the weather gauge (being upwind of its foe) could fire off broadside after broadside without having to close to spell range. The other vessel could then either turn before the wind, trade broadsides, or out sweeps and try to close the distance, which of course exposes their bow to raking fire. I'm reminded of the British fleet at Trafalgar, in light winds but a heavy swell, slowly closing in two ranks on centre of the french line, all the while exposed to raking fire from the French, before unleasing a deadly broadside on the French at pistol shot range, breaking the French line and doubling up on their centre. > > The best > > range most opposing mages might offer is going to be around 240 yards > > (give or take an area of effect). That means that the artilleryman rules > > the long range battle, but magic heavy nations (Alphatia, Minrothad and > > even Thyatis) might carry some dangerous, short range wizards. > > Which might encourage boarding actions as powerful mages might be quite > unlikely to go down with the ship and more troops may be needed to re-enforce > the main ships crew in a boarding action. thus being borne into battle in > smaller faster ships. Agreed, but don't fall for the fallacy that smaller ships will always be faster. In a heavy swell, a heavier ship might easily outpace a smaller one. There's certainly a need to carry sweeps, though, as bursts of speed from all sides would be very important. > Additionaly a large sailing ship can carry catapaults, > but it appears that a troop transport cannot so extra supplies may need to be > carried on seperate ships when marrines are aboard a sailing ship. Personally, I'd ignore the list of ship types entirely. 'Large sailing ship' is a nice simplification but a meaningless term. > the problem with that is that raking and such tactics really requires a lot of > broadside guns which simply do not exist. so those tactics go out the window to > a large degree. Yes and no; kit the vessel out with a broadside of catapults (put them fore, aft and amidships, possible as many as six), a 'gun deck' with fifteen or twenty shot or bold hurling ballista to a side, and all of a sudden we're faced with a vessel that can reaily knock a mast off an opponents vessel before it closes. And with rigging trailing over the side, their opponents turn before the wind and the Karameikan ship can move to another firing position (that will take their foes a huge effort to close on). > well the clipper only has up to 3 artilery pieces, so I'm not sure about the > bristling bit, and they are above deck. So cut the cargo capacity down and cut ballista ports on the gun deck. > They are good in their artilery > complement for their size, and are fast, but carry less troops then a large > sailing ship so are not as good for boarding, but would make excellent support > ships. I'm not sure that they could take on a war galley though. They couldn't do so easily, but view them more as heavily armed, clipper rigged frigates. Then they'll give a war galley a flaming good fight. > Well you are right that the small troop transports are not really that useful > except for boarding and suviving (up to 120 HP). Their only other use would be > to provide archer support, but they would not tend engage other warships on > their own, but would be useful as coastgaurd type ships as the men could board > and search merchant vessels suspected of smuggling, piracy, or slave trading. > and so are not without a purpose. Essentally what I suggested means that > karameikos has 8 ships that it takes into battle and a serries of smaller > vessels that help preform the more routine tasks. As for it as a naval power, > Minrothad only has 10 ships in it's navy (although it does have privateers > too). And to conquer karameikos you would need a army more then a navy. Again, this all comes down to what you consider to be a warship; Minrothad has a squadron of war galleys under the City of Minrothad that themselves could take on other warships. > I'd be interested to see that, but if you are going to go down that path we > would have to have some structure behind it. IMO karameikos would have a very > thyatian view of sea warfare, and they tend towards galleys as their main ship. I'll have to get round to drafting my view of the Thyatian navy too, then :) > As you point out it wasn't until Nelson that gun based navys deviated from > lineing up and shooting at each other. It's not till Nelson that fleet actions changed; individual ship actions were often somewhat more decisive. > You have to remember they may not know a > better way even if it seems obvious to us with a whole history of experience > behind us. True; but then Thyatis has had a thousand years of fighting a navy that can be relied on to have decent wizards on some of its ships. It'll fight intelligently against that foe. > I don't see too many problems with what I proposed as there are 90 > men on a small galley 250 on a large galley and only 30 on a small troop > transport, so when you look at it the small transports are tiny little things > and not really war ships. To have those 20 marrines on another ship would be a > much larger investment of resources, and you would still need small ships of > that kind anyway. Additionally this is standing navy, not a wartime force which > would be quite different. True enough; from the perspective of what's written in the rulebooks and supplements that is internally consistent. > feel free to pose alternatives, I was just trying to make sence of what the > gaz's tell us, while not having it be rediculous, and not having to deviate > much. The only other way's I could see (which did not seem reasonable to me > anyway) were to have each company on a war galley (@ 330 non-fighting men per > ship) or have some marrines double as sailors on either large galleys or > sailing ships, or have some men stay at port. With what I suggested the whole > navy is mobile. This isn't a simple bit of planning; it'll require a lot of thought to come up with a structure that makes sense of what's been published and which could also be effective. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:03:23 -0800 From: John Calvin Subject: [Mystara-Spelljammer] Exiles Campaign Part 3: Emberspace Emberspace (Elemental Sphere) This is a dark sphere populated by many small earth bodies (referred to by travelers as the “embers”). Each of the earth bodies is heated from within, and fracture lines across their surfaces glow red with volcanic activity. Clouds of soot and smoke permeate the sphere, some of them hiding electrical storms. There are two competing dragon ruled empires operating here, as well as one free carnifex clan, a renegade dragon spawn and its followers, and the remnants of the sphere’s native life forms – efreet. The efreet live in brass citadels, and travel through the sphere in brass ships. The dragon spawn is trying to form an alliance with the efreet in order to carve out an empire form himself. There are unique gemstones that can be found in this sphere. Called smolder gems, these jewels constantly emit a stream of smoke and ash. They are highly sought after by fire loving creatures, as well as communities living in Bugspace. Red Embers: These worlds are so hot that they glow red. Essentially globs of lava drifting through space, none live here except for fire elementals. Efreet build many of their strongholds here since the intense heat keeps most other travelers away. The Chamber of Brass: Deep within one of the red ember worlds lies a structure that defies imagination. The efreet stumbled upon the location a thousand years ago and found a wall of solid brass. Upon the wall were writings in a strange language that commanded the efreet to build a great temple at this location and to venerate the Lord of Radiance. This they did, and although the temple is still far from being complete, the efreet are beginning to realize that the structure itself is an artifact of immense magical power. The Lord of Radiance is none other than the immortal Rafiel, who is building replicas of the Nucleus of the Spheres, across the multiverse. The Chamber of the Spheres (build by the shadow elves on Mystara) is just one such example, as is the Chamber of Brass. See the entry on Rafiel and his home plane (the Chamber of the Planes) for more details. Cracked Embers: These black worlds are streaked with fiery red cracks. The black patches are in actuality continents of rock floating over molten lava. A few of these continents can support minimal life. Water is in short supply, as is fertile soil. Gray Embers: Gray embers are much akin to giant sized chunks of charcoal and ash. Despite their relative low habitability, these small worlds are often fought over. The resources that they provide (coal) are highly sought after by all the races in this sphere and in the Known Spheres as well. Some of the larger gray embers are homes to various creatures of elemental earth. The Xorn are common inhabitants of these realms. Smoke Clouds: Enormous clouds of smoke and ash extend across vast expanses of this sphere. The smoke can provide cover to any ships that enter it, but a ship’s air immediately becomes fouled. Some clouds are also home to bands of elemental creatures (mephitis are common) that will attack spelljamming vessels on sight. Cinder Storms: These treacherous storms are frequent in the void of Emberspace. Glowing hot cinders whirl around in vast clouds. The cinders range anywhere from the size of a grain of sand to the size of a clenched fist. Ships caught in such storms are in for a perilous time, as are their crew. Flammable objects (which include most creatures) must make a Fortitude save every round or take 1d2 points of flame damage. Some cinder storms also serve as a home to various fiery elemental creatures. Flame mephitis are common, as are fiery versions of normal winged creatures such as bats and birds. City of Brass: The City of Brass is not so much a city, as it is a transitive-plane. Home to the evil efreet, the City of Brass extends across multiple planes. It just so happens to manifest itself on several of the planets in this sphere (though this is not the only sphere or plane or perhaps even multiverse, that the City exists upon). The efreet are constantly trying to expand the borders of their fabled city, and constantly battle the inhabitants of this sphere (and others) for territory. Though one stronghold of the City might fall, another stronghold is expanding or being founded, and so the City of Brass continues to exist. The streets of the City are convoluted (and some say that they are ever-changing). Even the natives of the City have a hard time finding their way. Turning down the wrong street will often times take a traveler somewhere they may not be able to return from, so most of the inhabitants of the City tread only where they know they have been before. The efreet in Emberspace build great brass ships to sail through the sphere on. They have been waging war with the carnifex for thousands of years now. Some centuries the efreet gain the upper hand, while some centuries the carnifex are able to dominate the sphere. Currently the efreet have been pushed back to their strongholds on the red ember worlds. Their brass ships lie in wait along the trade routes for unsuspecting merchant ships. Another favorite tactic is to travel with a cinder storm (their ships of brass are immune to the storm’s effects) and waylay anyone unfortunate to be caught by the storm. The shipyards of Emberspace produce a good portion of the City of Brass’ brass fleet. Most of the ships produced in this sphere see their way to other spheres and planes. As the efreet loose their battle with the carnifex, and ship production slows down, the Emir is turning more and more of his attention to this sphere. He wants to make sure that ship production will not stop, and to that end he is concentrating more of his forces in Emberspace. The efreet are building up for a major offensive very shortly. NPCs: The carnifex dominate this sphere, although both the efreet and the Blackmoorians are able to maintain a presence. Abiir Maluk Abiir is the efreet who found the writings of the Brass Wall, and he led some of his people into following them. He has become the head shaman of the Lord of Radiance, and the chief architect of the Chamber of Brass. Once the artifact is completed, Abiir will try to use its power to usurp control of the City of Brass from the current Emir. Artor Fell Captain of a Blackmoorian Kennel ship operating in this area, Artor is tasked with discovering the secrets of this sphere as well as keeping an eye on Carnifex and efreet activities. Captain Fell is a hard and unforgiving man who will brook no disobedience from his crew. However he is also resourceful and looks for the same qualities in those who serve him. After several initially disastrous encounters with the environs of this sphere, Fell has had his ship plated in brass. This has offered the ship and its crew a modicum of protection from the environment. Fell acquired the brass from several carnifex and efreet ships that he happened upon, and he would not hesitate to acquire more if given the chance. This has not made him popular with the local inhabitants. Vellemghyuitor This young blue dragon has been tasked by his suzerain (and mother) to maintain control over several grey embers in the area. The embers are all within proximity of a local smoke cloud, and living conditions on them are hazardous at best. The young blue has a task force of Carnifex overseers and several clans of saurian servitors in order to extract coal and various other resources from the embers he dominates. Being an ambitious dragon, Vellemghyuitor has begun to siphon off some of the profits of this operation and is using them to fund a private war against territories controlled by his red dragon neighbors. Igneftherium A black hearted tyrant, Igneftherium lies in his lair on one of the black ember worlds and manipulates his empire. This ancient red wyrm has been waging a battle with the blue dragons in this sphere for as long as he’s been alive, nearly 2000 years. His children are scattered throughout this sphere and are in control of several worlds. He has dominion over dragons, Carnifex, and efreet, but that is not enough for him. Igneftherium wants to crush the hearts of the blues between his jaws. Taiilii Taiilii is a small fire mephit, and an advanced scout in a massive army being marshaled by an elemental lord of Fire (an enemy of the efreet Emir). His job is to infiltrate portions of the City of Brass and determine key locations for invasion. He may also be found in any of the sphere’s smoke clouds or cinder storms, quietly observing the ships that pass through. Unbeknownst to the inhabitants of this sphere, their home is about to erupt into an elemental battleground. ===== Rule #85. I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button." from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:14:21 +0000 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Where in the world is Rahasia? John Calvin wrote: > > Dang Giampaolo, this is just about the best idea I've heard in a long while. > Consider it stolen. The water elves are going to end up being lycanthropic, > Taymoran, Entropy worshipers. Makes for a nice twist as far as I'm concerned. Thanks, John! If you manage to make something of it, tell us. More later, GP -- di nuovo come un tempo sopra l'Italia intera urla il vento e soffia la bufera ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 11 Jan 2004 to 12 Jan 2004 (#2004-13) ***************************************************************