Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 30 Jun 2004 to 1 Jul 2004 (#2004-135) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 02/07/2004, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 9 messages totalling 887 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Dragon Lore: Modern Draconic History (4) 2. Things I Hate in Mystara - Thyatian Languages (3) 3. Thyatian Languages (2) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 00:59:29 -0700 From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: Re: Dragon Lore: Modern Draconic History I like that! yet now , I shall include your good creations to my davanian maps, and skothar maps... thank you very much to give me some more work to do when i hardly have enough time to finish what i have started so far... ;-) ===== Thibault SARLAT a.k.a Clenarius www.mystara.fr.st ICQ 16622177 MSN Messenger: clenarius@hotmail.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 12:38:59 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Dragon Lore: Modern Draconic History Giulio wrote: > Gasp! I know very little of James Mishler's timeline > but that little is very little compatible with canon > or with the vision of Mystara of most mystarafiles > myself included. I don't like the idea of Hel being > leader of the dragons, nor do I like the division > into > chromatic and metallic, that really doesn't belong > to > Mystara. And to add to the picture (who cares about > my > ideas anyway? 8-) ), I dislike the idea of putting a > Council of Wyrms in Wyrmsteeth (which contradicts > Canon 100%), and I dislike the reduction of Dragon > Rulers to standard immortality made in the WotI, > contrarily to what is stated in the Gold Box > (Dragons > are something different). Ok, I know...this has > nothing to do with your work, I just wanted to give > an > idea of my view of the problem. Thanks for the comments! I am a big fan of the Mystaros Timeline. I actually don't think it contradicts canon timelines (with perhaps a few minor exceptions), but it does introduce some new elements to the history. IIRC, the only thing brought in from that timeline into these two articles was the division between Metallic and Chromatic Dragons and they fact that they were called to Mystara by Odin and Hel. The connection between Hel and the Dragons is linked IMC with the assumption that Hel=Idris, the Dragon Queen. Note that canon AFAIK does not state who the dragons served before the Dragon Rulers arrived, and they are said to have arrived only in recent history (according to WotI). I can understand reluctance to include more non-Gold metallic dragons in Mystara, I decided to do so myself, only recently. The articles on Mystaran dragons in Dragon Magazine did suggest that Dragon souls were occationally reincarnated even to other dragon races than the ones listed in the OD&D rules. Still, Metallic Dragons can easily be replaced with Gold Dragons if you should wish it. My version of Wyrmsteeth is not based on Council of Wyrms, but simply on the information from the Dragonlord Trilogy. I also added a bit from Dragonstar, about the dragons ruling in turn, but it seemed to fit with Dragonlord, in which the Gold Dragons seem to dominate, but where the Red Dragons are ready to take over. Currently, the Reds are in charge, which will help explain why "Who is Who Among Dragons", had a Gold Dragon ruler of one of the Rogue Kingdoms. Btw, the linking between the Dragonlord Rogue Dragon Kingdoms and the Dragon Kings of "Who is Who Among Dragons" is my own idea, though it seemed to suggest itself... On the issue of whether Dragons should be immortals or something different, I think it would make sense to have them use the rules for regular immortals (or deities in a 3e campaign), but their origins are different (tied with the Ceremony of Sublimination). > However, this stuff is interesting and I promise > I'll > comment more on that. Thanks! :) Håvard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 13:57:00 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Things I Hate in Mystara - Thyatian Languages Every Mystara-fan knows that consistency is a huge problem throughout the campaing. Fan work hasn't helped in that direction - and I know, being a prolific writer, that I have been one of the guilty ones, here. Unfortunately, when we have to describe, to complement, to expand on previous canon work, we find ourselves with problems that we will never be able to overcome without bending (or deleting whole parts of) canon. I take some examples that I am particularly "worried" about. THYATIS The problem of thyatian language, customs, and names is impossible to solve. Just taking in consideration canon strictly, we have celtic (Korrigan, McRhoomag), german (Oesterhaus, Von Hendriks, etc.), latin (Docerius, Lucinius) and greek/byzanthine (Karagenteropolous, Demetrion) sounding names in the same country, referred to the same population (I am not taking in consideration those names that have a reasonable origin, like ylari names, hinterlander names, nuari names). Moreover, the thyatian culture seems to be a mix of medieval feudalism and a senatorial monarchy similar to that of the old roman empire. The language is "thyatian", common both to the thyatian/kerendan ethnicity, and to the hattian one; however, they have very different type of names, and are different physically, although they share the same ancestry. A good way to introduce some order was the creation of the Dunael (who is responsible of that, by the way?), that created a substrate for the existence, on the Isle of Dawn, of places with names like Caerdwicca and Furmenglaive, and of personal names like Uthgard McRhoomag etc. However, the problem of the thyatian language requires a partial rewriting of large bunches of historical pieces and names. The most logical possibility would be to erase the latin sounding names, change the feudal titles into byzanthinian equivalents and detail them better, and turn Thyatis into an hybrid Roman/Byzanthine Empire of greek language. Unfortunately, in Mystara there are already many greek-related cultures. Another way, much more intrusive in the setting, however, is to change greek/byzanthine names into latin ones. On the administrative part, things should remain identhical to the above-presented solution. Anyway, the origin of the thyatian populations has to be changed, to be really cohesive. Hattians should be considered Antalians in origin, and they should probably speak a different language (by the way, if I recall correctly, in some canon producs it is stated that the hattians speak a different language, uncomprehensible to thyatians). The mentions of Thyatians and Kerendans as Antalian populations should, instead, be neglected. A possible solution of this problem could be the re-grouping of all these populations in a super-group that includes all the cultures and ethnicities that are equivalent of indoeuropean ones (a solution I chose for the "Ethnography of Mystara", creating the Skandaharians, that include Antalians (viking/german), Thantalians (latins/italics), Trantalians (slavic/greek - although there is another big problem here, oh yes!)). Ok, I've written long enough to give you something to think about. I hope to see some comments, suggestions, I would like to know what would be the best solution to preserve as much as possible the canon and the feeling of the campaign, writing something cohesive and consistent. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ____________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Companion - Scarica gratis la toolbar di Ricerca di Yahoo! http://companion.yahoo.it ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:49:33 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Dragon Lore: Modern Draconic History Im glad you like it! :) I am also always very happy to keep you busy mr map maker. Any progress on the Thunder Rift map? :) Håvard --- Thibault Sarlat skrev: > I like that! > > yet now , I shall include your good creations to my > davanian maps, and skothar maps... > > thank you very much to give me some more work to do > when i hardly have enough time to finish what i have > started so far... > > ;-) > > ===== > Thibault SARLAT > a.k.a Clenarius > www.mystara.fr.st > ICQ 16622177 > MSN Messenger: clenarius@hotmail.com > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 17:39:09 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Things I Hate in Mystara - Thyatian Languages la Volpe wrote: > > The language is "thyatian", common both to the > thyatian/kerendan ethnicity, and to the hattian one; > however, they have very different type of names, and > are different physically, although they share the same > ancestry. IMO the only big problem here is Hattian, since Kerendas and Thyatis may be defined as Latin with Greek influences being explained by their contact with the Milenians. I also agree with your solution for Hattias (i.e., Hattians are of Antalian origin, and have kept Antalian names and perhaps a little-known language). > A good way to introduce some order was the creation of > the Dunael (who is responsible of that, by the way?), Mystaros, perhaps? At least the Dunael appear in his history of the IoD, which dates back to 1999. > The most logical possibility would be to erase the > latin sounding names, change the feudal titles into > byzanthinian equivalents and detail them better, and > turn Thyatis into an hybrid Roman/Byzanthine Empire of > greek language. Unfortunately, in Mystara there are > already many greek-related cultures. Yes, and they are not fully related to Thyatis. Moreover, this requires large modifications of the canon. > Another way, much more intrusive in the setting, > however, is to change greek/byzanthine names into > latin ones. On the administrative part, things should > remain identhical to the above-presented solution. I think many byzanthine names can simply be explained as leftovers of the interaction between the Milenians and the Thyatians, back in the times when the Thyatians lived in Davania, and/or as the results of the assimilation of Doulakki city-state into the early Thyatian kingdoms. The Thyatians, when they migrated back to Brun, settled lands that were previously under Doulakki and/or Traldar control (especially the Kerendans), so the influence is IMO justified. > Anyway, the origin of the thyatian populations has to > be changed, to be really cohesive. Hattians should be > considered Antalians in origin, and they should > probably speak a different language (by the way, if I > recall correctly, in some canon producs it is stated > that the hattians speak a different language, > uncomprehensible to thyatians). Really? That would be an useful pointer. Anyway, I consider this the best solution for Hattias. > The mentions of > Thyatians and Kerendans as Antalian populations > should, instead, be neglected. I think these mentions should be simply considered inaccurate -- Thyatians and Kerendans are related to the Antalians, but they are not Antalians. Bye, GP -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:45:48 -0700 From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: Re: Dragon Lore: Modern Draconic History no alas i just started a new job and this kept me pretty busy; yet i made some research beforehand and found that there were no real map available (at least not on the printed material i have). i shall check the pdf version, but since i lost most of them in a crash, i shall not be able to access them soon. I shall have some free time at the end of july and for the first 3 weeks of august. then i'll be able to make some maps. --- Havard Faanes wrote: > Im glad you like it! :) > > I am also always very happy to keep you busy mr map > maker. Any progress on the Thunder Rift map? > > :) > > Håvard > > --- Thibault Sarlat skrev: > > I > like that! > > > > yet now , I shall include your good creations to > my > > davanian maps, and skothar maps... > > > > thank you very much to give me some more work to > do > > when i hardly have enough time to finish what i > have > > started so far... > > > > ;-) > > > > ===== > > Thibault SARLAT > > a.k.a Clenarius > > www.mystara.fr.st > > ICQ 16622177 > > MSN Messenger: clenarius@hotmail.com > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: > > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > The Mystara Homepage: > http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > > To unsubscribe, send email to > > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > > > ===== > *** > Håvard R. Faanes > www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa > > ______________________________________________________ > Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på > http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ > Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med > superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ===== Thibault SARLAT a.k.a Clenarius www.mystara.fr.st ICQ 16622177 MSN Messenger: clenarius@hotmail.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 20:26:10 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Things I Hate in Mystara - Thyatian Languages ----- Original Message ----- From: "la Volpe" > Ok, I've written long enough to give you something to > think about. I hope to see some comments, suggestions, > I would like to know what would be the best solution > to preserve as much as possible the canon and the > feeling of the campaign, writing something cohesive > and consistent. IMC I consider thyatians, kerendans, hattians and dunael 4 neathar people related to antalians that lived in the northen reaches/norwold/isle of dawn area and were deported to Davania by Nithians. They spoke different but related languages. Besides, even in RW latin, celtic and german (and scandinavian languages too) are all indoeuropean languages, closely related in their primitive forms. The same in mystara for thyatian/latin, four kingdoms and dunael/celtic and hattian/german. In Davania and after the return to Brun Thyatian incorporated many greek/milenian words, Kerendian later evolved in espan/spanish, verdan/portoguese and italian/caurenzian, while Hattian remained more close to its germanic/antalian roots. Nowadays IMC Hattian is a sort of latinized german, pure Thyatian a classical latin with a lot of greek influences and Kerendian an italianized latin. The Official Imperial Thyatian is a sort of classical latin without the milenian/greek word typical of the real thyatian dialect. The Thyatian is the official language of the Empire because the thyatian population has always dominated the kerendians and the hattians in thyatian history. The Common Thyatian spoken in the Known World is a sort of anglicized latin or latinized english because the classical thyatian merged with a sort of proto-english language common in all Brun, the language of the blackmoorian-era neathar and the language from where antalian, thyatian, dunael and hattian evolved. Seems odd and complicated? a bit but you should think to RW medieval italy or medieval france: you have very different languages in the same nation, sometimes without meaningful relation to each other (like ladin and sicilian, or breton and provencal). I use that solution because I think it preserves probably all the canon informations we have, explain the differences between DotE, the Thyatians adventures and the Almanacs and seems to me quite consistent. But anyone chooses the best solution for him and for his campaign. A Thyatian speaker of Imperial Thyatian would be able to speak with a Darokian speaker of Common Thyatian? sure, IMC the two languages are closely related, even if the common thyatian will have some odd words and odd pronunciation for a citizen of the Empire. A senator of Thyatis city would be able to speak with an hattian knight? sure, in Imperial Thyatian. A potter of Thyatis city would be able to speak with an hattian fisherman? with a lot of difficulties, because the potter will speak a sort of greek-latin and the fisherman a sort of german-latin. They will have some word in common and many not. bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 20:34:09 -0500 From: James Mishler Subject: Thyatian Languages ::The Magister Mystaros lowers his invisibility cloak:: <> To a certain extent, yes. Realize, though, that the population of = Thyatis is almost entirely based on fairly recent immigration, the = peoples who immigrated in themselves having only recently prior been = forcefully transplanted to the place they migrated from... Here's how this works, vaguely, in my own history. Ca. 1000 BC and prior, the Nithians enslave whole villages of Antalians = ("proto-Norse") from the Northern Reaches and, IMC, whole clans of = Dunael ("proto-Celtic") from the Isle of Dawn (BTW, yes, I am guilty as = charged on the creation of the Dunael). These peoples are forcibly = settled on huge slave plantations of the Southern Kingdoms in = northeastern Davania. At about the same time the Milenians settle in = northwestern and central northern Davania. Ca. 900 BC the Antalian and Dunael slaves in the Southern Kingdoms = rebel. Several tribes are formed over the next 100 years from the mixed = population; these include the Thyatians (Antalian-Traldar), Kerendans = (Antalian-Dunael), Hattians (Pure Antalian) and "Hinterlander" (Pure = Dunael). The Southern Antalian Tribes (Thyatian, Kerendan and Hattian) = retain bronze-age level technology, while the Hinterlanders regress to = stone-age technology. >> From 662 to 637 BC the Thyatians, hard pressed by the Hattians of = Hattios and the Milenian City-States, migrate en masse to Brun. There = they are granted lands by the Nithians, as the resident Traldar had = never fully recovered from the Beastmen War. >> From 554 to 530 BC the Kerendan Clans, hard pressed by the Hattians and = caught in the Third Metropolitan War, flee to join their Thyatian = cousins on Brun. They settle in the plains to the west of Thyatis, = absorbing the native Traldar populace. In 480 BC, flush with it's victories in the west, the Milenian League = invades the Hattian Kingdom; Hattios is razed, and most of the Hattians = that escape flee to Brun over the following decade. Hattians arrive in = Thyatis from Davania; weak after their lost battles and long migration, = they cannot overcome the forces of Thyatis. The Hattians decide to carve = out their own land on the island south of Thyatis, which they name the = Isle of Hattias; they also found a new city, named Hattias in honor of = their lost city. They conquer and enslave the local Traladaran populace. So by 480 BC, all three tribes had made it to what is now modern = mainland Thyatis. The Thyatians had already mixed with Milenians on = Davania (being nearly a 50/50 blending of Antalians and Milenians), then = had another 150 years to merge with the remnants of the Traldar left on = Brun. Their language, already heavily mingled with Milenian, added many = local Traldar dialects, and thus differentiated from Traldar and = Antalian to become modern Thyatian ("M-Latin"). Naming conventions are = unique, being those of the "Latin" sort found throughout Thyatis. The Kerendan clans, similarly, had formed from a merging of Antalian and = Dunael, then merged with Traldar and Thyatians on mainland Brun. Their = language would then most closely resemble an "M-Romano-Gallic" = (pre-Frankish) tongue, I suppose, with their early he naming traditions = would be very "Celtic" in nature (thus Korrigan and other = Celtic/Gallic/British sounding names). Modern naming traditions tend to = follow Thyatian (due to the prevalence and dominance of that culture), = with a few Kerendan and mixed KErendan/Thyatian remnants being found = here and there. McRhoomag comes from another source, which I shall = mention later... The Hattians, as noted, are Pure Antalians... mostly. They actually, of = course, mixed heavily with the later-day Milenians and the Traldar of = mainland Brun, with the local women taken as concubines. So = phenotypically, the modern Hattians of Brun run the gamut from blonde = and redheads to black hairs, and blue to brown eyes. However, they have = always, always maintained their cultural and linguistic separation. = Linguistically, the Hattian tongue is very similar sounding to that of = the modern Antalians of the Northern Reaches, but the words and even = grammar are quite different in practice. A sage familiar with both = tongues could trace the divergences, but native speakers of the two = tongues find them utterly incomprehensible to one another. The Dunael were my own creation, to add in the "Celtic" peoples of = mainland Brun, and to explain the Hinterlanders. Note that I did this = IMC long, long before the introduction of the Robrenn on the Savage = Coast! Note also I derived the name "Dunael" from "Dunadale" (being = originally "Dunael-dale" and evolved from there). The Dunael, as = mentioned above, were taken as slaves by the Nithians, and transplanted = to Davania, where their modern, relatively pure descendents survive as = the "Hinterlanders" (their own name for themselves being the Kymrae IMC, = complete with Welsh names, natch). Around 1700 BC clans of mixed = Antalians/Nentsun settled the northern Isle of Dawn, where they formed = the ancestors of two tribes: the Helska ("M-Saxons," which I haven't = really mentioned much before) and the Caerda ("M-Scots"). At some point = in time, during the chaos of the ages that followed, the Caerda migrated = south, eventually ending up on the southernmost tip of the island, where = Caerdwicca and Furmenglaive now stand. Their early inclusion (and rise = and fall and rise agin) in the Empire adds a whole 'nother level of = Celtic (Scottish) names, as do their cousins the Aran folk ("M-Irish") = of Redstone. Movern Italian sounding names are from the Amancerians of = the Shadow Coast ("M-Italians", mentioned in my history of the Ispans a = while back). Anyhoo, there's a bunch of stuff to throw into the mix. Haven't the time = unfortunately to delve much more intently into it, got much to do... = including the HackWurld of Mystaros, if I can ever get back to work on = the bloody thing... (^_^). <> This is a completely different issue than the cultural one. Frankly, I = see little problem with it as a form of empire, though to make it "work" = in a long-term campaign it requires a fair bit of work. Really, the = Thyatian Empire as written resembles the early Roman Empire. The Senate = controls certain aspects of the Empire, notably laws, and even controls = some territories. The Emperor personally controls many territories. In = between is where the intrigue lies, especially where Imperial vs. = Senatorial rights are involved. Think Carolingian Empire, had the = Senatorial Roman families maintained their powers to any extent... James "Mystaros" Mishler ::raises his invisibility cloak and disappears into lurker land once = again...:: ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 23:24:42 -0500 From: James Mishler Subject: Re: Thyatian Languages D'oh! Of course, there are several things I forgot to mention... 1) IMC, the various Greek sounding Thyatian names are used among clans and families who have heavy Traldar ancestry, as well as in general across Thyatis and Kerendas in modern times, as they assimilated the local Traldar peoples. Many clans trace their lineages back to ancient Traldar heroes from the times before the coming of the Thyatians. The peoples of the Duchy of Machetos have a very strong Traldar ancestry, though unlike the neighoring Traladarans, the people of Machetos are heavily mixed with Kerendans, to the point that they are considered Kerendans; they are also heavily Thyatianized, due to centuries of garrison legions being based in the area. 2) IMC, modern Kerendan is a distinct dialect of Thyatian, related to Thaytian the way Spanish is related to Italian. Old Kerendan is a distinct language, a mix of Antalian and Dunael with Milenian and Traldar influence; sort of like the Romano-Iberian tongue spoken in Iberia during the rule of the Visigoths and before the invasion of the Moors. Ispan/Espan is directly descended from that old tongue, mixed with Alasiyani. Old Kerendan is today spoken only by sages and a few old, "Kerendan First" clans. 3) IMC, Hattian is a distinct and utterly separate language from Thyatian: no relation whatsoever to Thyatian. When they must deal with Thyatians, Hattians speak Imperial Thyatian. 4) Imperial Thyatian is what most people call "Thyatian." There are numerous Thyatian dialects; that of the City of Thyatis is the father of modern Imperial Thyatian. All the dialects are mutually intelligible, but as diverse as pre-modern Italian dialects. Amancerian is a distinct dialect of Thyatian spoken on the Shadow Coast (and in Glantri, too). James ***************************** James "Mystaros" Mishler Mystaros@cwwis.com www.kenzerco.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Mishler" To: Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 8:34 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] Thyatian Languages ::The Magister Mystaros lowers his invisibility cloak:: <> To a certain extent, yes. Realize, though, that the population of Thyatis is almost entirely based on fairly recent immigration, the peoples who immigrated in themselves having only recently prior been forcefully transplanted to the place they migrated from... Here's how this works, vaguely, in my own history. Ca. 1000 BC and prior, the Nithians enslave whole villages of Antalians ("proto-Norse") from the Northern Reaches and, IMC, whole clans of Dunael ("proto-Celtic") from the Isle of Dawn (BTW, yes, I am guilty as charged on the creation of the Dunael). These peoples are forcibly settled on huge slave plantations of the Southern Kingdoms in northeastern Davania. At about the same time the Milenians settle in northwestern and central northern Davania. Ca. 900 BC the Antalian and Dunael slaves in the Southern Kingdoms rebel. Several tribes are formed over the next 100 years from the mixed population; these include the Thyatians (Antalian-Traldar), Kerendans (Antalian-Dunael), Hattians (Pure Antalian) and "Hinterlander" (Pure Dunael). The Southern Antalian Tribes (Thyatian, Kerendan and Hattian) retain bronze-age level technology, while the Hinterlanders regress to stone-age technology. >> From 662 to 637 BC the Thyatians, hard pressed by the Hattians of Hattios and the Milenian City-States, migrate en masse to Brun. There they are granted lands by the Nithians, as the resident Traldar had never fully recovered from the Beastmen War. >> From 554 to 530 BC the Kerendan Clans, hard pressed by the Hattians and caught in the Third Metropolitan War, flee to join their Thyatian cousins on Brun. They settle in the plains to the west of Thyatis, absorbing the native Traldar populace. In 480 BC, flush with it's victories in the west, the Milenian League invades the Hattian Kingdom; Hattios is razed, and most of the Hattians that escape flee to Brun over the following decade. Hattians arrive in Thyatis from Davania; weak after their lost battles and long migration, they cannot overcome the forces of Thyatis. The Hattians decide to carve out their own land on the island south of Thyatis, which they name the Isle of Hattias; they also found a new city, named Hattias in honor of their lost city. They conquer and enslave the local Traladaran populace. So by 480 BC, all three tribes had made it to what is now modern mainland Thyatis. The Thyatians had already mixed with Milenians on Davania (being nearly a 50/50 blending of Antalians and Milenians), then had another 150 years to merge with the remnants of the Traldar left on Brun. Their language, already heavily mingled with Milenian, added many local Traldar dialects, and thus differentiated from Traldar and Antalian to become modern Thyatian ("M-Latin"). Naming conventions are unique, being those of the "Latin" sort found throughout Thyatis. The Kerendan clans, similarly, had formed from a merging of Antalian and Dunael, then merged with Traldar and Thyatians on mainland Brun. Their language would then most closely resemble an "M-Romano-Gallic" (pre-Frankish) tongue, I suppose, with their early he naming traditions would be very "Celtic" in nature (thus Korrigan and other Celtic/Gallic/British sounding names). Modern naming traditions tend to follow Thyatian (due to the prevalence and dominance of that culture), with a few Kerendan and mixed KErendan/Thyatian remnants being found here and there. McRhoomag comes from another source, which I shall mention later... The Hattians, as noted, are Pure Antalians... mostly. They actually, of course, mixed heavily with the later-day Milenians and the Traldar of mainland Brun, with the local women taken as concubines. So phenotypically, the modern Hattians of Brun run the gamut from blonde and redheads to black hairs, and blue to brown eyes. However, they have always, always maintained their cultural and linguistic separation. Linguistically, the Hattian tongue is very similar sounding to that of the modern Antalians of the Northern Reaches, but the words and even grammar are quite different in practice. A sage familiar with both tongues could trace the divergences, but native speakers of the two tongues find them utterly incomprehensible to one another. The Dunael were my own creation, to add in the "Celtic" peoples of mainland Brun, and to explain the Hinterlanders. Note that I did this IMC long, long before the introduction of the Robrenn on the Savage Coast! Note also I derived the name "Dunael" from "Dunadale" (being originally "Dunael-dale" and evolved from there). The Dunael, as mentioned above, were taken as slaves by the Nithians, and transplanted to Davania, where their modern, relatively pure descendents survive as the "Hinterlanders" (their own name for themselves being the Kymrae IMC, complete with Welsh names, natch). Around 1700 BC clans of mixed Antalians/Nentsun settled the northern Isle of Dawn, where they formed the ancestors of two tribes: the Helska ("M-Saxons," which I haven't really mentioned much before) and the Caerda ("M-Scots"). At some point in time, during the chaos of the ages that followed, the Caerda migrated south, eventually ending up on the southernmost tip of the island, where Caerdwicca and Furmenglaive now stand. Their early inclusion (and rise and fall and rise agin) in the Empire adds a whole 'nother level of Celtic (Scottish) names, as do their cousins the Aran folk ("M-Irish") of Redstone. Movern Italian sounding names are from the Amancerians of the Shadow Coast ("M-Italians", mentioned in my history of the Ispans a while back). Anyhoo, there's a bunch of stuff to throw into the mix. Haven't the time unfortunately to delve much more intently into it, got much to do... including the HackWurld of Mystaros, if I can ever get back to work on the bloody thing... (^_^). <> This is a completely different issue than the cultural one. Frankly, I see little problem with it as a form of empire, though to make it "work" in a long-term campaign it requires a fair bit of work. Really, the Thyatian Empire as written resembles the early Roman Empire. The Senate controls certain aspects of the Empire, notably laws, and even controls some territories. The Emperor personally controls many territories. In between is where the intrigue lies, especially where Imperial vs. Senatorial rights are involved. Think Carolingian Empire, had the Senatorial Roman families maintained their powers to any extent... James "Mystaros" Mishler ::raises his invisibility cloak and disappears into lurker land once again...:: ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 30 Jun 2004 to 1 Jul 2004 (#2004-135) ***************************************************************