Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 6 Jul 2004 to 7 Jul 2004 (#2004-139) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 08/07/2004, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 10 messages totalling 445 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. - Doulakki 2. Return to Minrothad (2) 3. Doulakki, Traladara & Thyatis 4. Meditor/Verdeir/Vyalia Timeline Events 5. Verdier/Vyalia/Meditor idea 6. More Elf ideas (4) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 15:34:48 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: - Doulakki Cool ideas (especially 1 and 2). It points in a direction that I like, because my idea (that I will discuss extensively, unfortunately for you MMLers 8-) ) to decrease the pan-traldarism is to increase the doulakki presence in the known world's past... Giulio ____________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Companion - Scarica gratis la toolbar di Ricerca di Yahoo! http://companion.yahoo.it ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 15:38:03 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Return to Minrothad Since your other email clarified that the Meditor are the Water Elves, I won't get into that. I was a bit confused about that myself for a while there :) I like the idea of the Nithians using the Water Elves for transportation across the sea. This explores a new element in Nithian society that hasn't really been delved into. Tying that to the story of Elas and the Siswa cult works well also. Do you have any timeline dates for any of this? It might be useful. I have also been toying with an idea of an old Nithian colony near Izonda in Davania which also might fit into all of this. Furthermore, there are the questions of the relationship between Sinbad, Al-Kalim and Minroth, three Immortals who seem to be connected somehow. Having Milen's Traldar use the Meditor Elf Ships gives me associations to Tolkien and the elves leaving from the Grey Havens. Neat! The connection between the Aquarendi and the Meditor is interesting too. I need to check the timeline for all of this. Would the Meditor, Aquarendi and the Verdier be of the same group originally? Note that Manwara and Calitha don't like eachother. That might also be brought into the story of the relationship between these clans. Havard --- Chris Cherrington skrev: > Some more arguments for Nithia’s use of the Verdier > for all of their ocean going needs is the fact the > Nithians were transported at the height of their > empire, with pyramids and monuments, but not one > ocean traveling vessel. They did not have any. > Nithians intermingled with the Oltecs of the Savage > Coast, but never traveled through Darokin, or > intermingled with the Sindhi. That is because the > Verdier were moving Shiye Elves east to Alphatia and > transporting Nithians west to the Savage Coast on > the return trip. And just how did the Nithians know > that the Traldar moved to Davania? It was probably > the Verdier were hired to move them, and then in > turn hired to move some troublesome barbarians to go > bother somebody else. Now that would be another > good twist having the same barbarians ransack the > prior customers, and pay the Verdier to take them > back and go bother the same people that hired the > Verdier to make them go away. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 16:04:25 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Doulakki, Traladara & Thyatis > > I like option 2 as well. Romans combined many > different peoples, and what might have been > considered Traladaran, may infact be Doulakki > instead. I think we can keep Traladaran the RW > Slavic, and anything that was once considered > Traladaran Greek, could be corrected to Doulakki. You've got it, you've got it...now we musy try to see if it's possible...something like ------------------------------------------------------ Neathar -->1.1 "old antalians" (Skandaharians? or their descendants?) ----->1.1.2 Antalians-->Hattians,Heldannics,Wendarians ----->1.1.3 Thantalians --> Thyatians ----->1.1.4 Trantalians-->Traldar-->Traladarans etc. -->1.2 Doulakki -->1.3 Others (dunael, carnuilh, makai etc.) ------------------------------------------------------ Then in Karameikos and Thyatis we could have these situations: A) Traldar ---> Traladarans (most of Karameikos, pure Traldar cities) B) Doulakki + Traldar ---> Milenians (mix occured in southeastern Karameikos, where Milen came from) C) Doulakki + original Thyatians --> empire Thyatians ------------------------------------------------------ A is 100% canon compatible B would explain both the traldar origin and the greek sounding tongue & names C would explain the presence of greek sounding names, although the language would be almost identical to latin (Doulakki culture absorbed, but local names and surnames mantained by locals). This could also justify Geoff's option for some village to speak some doulakki dialect etc. And the fact that the thyatian language would be latin justifies the fact that it fathered the caurenzan (italian) and espa/verdan (spanish/portuguese) languages. ------------------------------------------------------ Do you think it's a feasable solution? > From the linguistic point of view, yes. But from the setting's point of view? Giulio ____________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Companion - Scarica gratis la toolbar di Ricerca di Yahoo! http://companion.yahoo.it ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 10:37:12 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Return to Minrothad Okay, here is what I have so far... (warning, its long, and I want input) The Meditor elves believe they were the first to take to the ocean, and this may be true, as their immortal patron is Calitha Starbrow. She was one of the first generations of elf, and the first elven born immortal. Their kinsmen are the Verdier, whom have always stayed with the original teachings of Ordana and have followed the Dainrouw. When Ilsundal led the separatist, several other clans opted to stay in Grunland. The Sheyallia, a group of reclusive elves that first prophesied the error on adopting Blackmoor technology; and the Verdier, who already had a long relationship of cutting trees for their kin the Meditor to build their ships. The Meditor were asked to sail Ilsundal’s group northwards, but did not want to leave without their kin the Verdier, so Ilsundal cursed the Meditor (although none know what exactly the curse is, but some ancient Sylvan records of the Faedil read this to their distinct coloration that most find disturbing. Modern times attribute this to their uncanny resemblance to the Shadow Elves, but in ancient times no one knew of the Shadow Elves, so this mistrust by other Sylvan Elves has been around long before). When the Sheyallia prophesized the destruction of Grunland, they implored the Meditor to move them to safer lands. In exchange, the Sheyallia blessed the Meditor with intuitiveness on their location so they could never be lost. The Meditor gathered their kin and with the Sheyallia, Mohesia, Grunalf, and Verdier; they left Grunland forever. The Meditor sailed through the Addakian Sound and met with Ilsundal’s migration. This was an ill meeting, the Grunalf’s were well received, as most of their relations left with Ilsundal; but the others were not welcome. The Mohesia stayed and settled in on the Savage Coast, even after Ilsundal moved on. The Meditor then took the Sheyallia and Verdier to the Serpent Peninsula. Other clans disliking Ilsundal’s treatment of the Meditor and their allies, soon left a nd settled further north in now modern day Glantri. The Meditor a Verdier soon split from the Sheyallia, as the woods of the area were not good for ship making and the shores of the peninsula where not hospitable to the Verdier. The Meditor found a home for the Verdier along an unclaimed coast east of the Taymor. In 1750 BC, many Meditor became ill with a strange disease that many attributed to Ilsundal’s curse, as no prayers to Calitha would heal the sores or numb the pain. Others associated the strange disease to the Taymor that the Meditor traded with, and the sudden appearance of the disease when the sudden disappearance of the Taymor happened. Seeking help, they discovered the advanced medicines of the Sindai culture east of Taymor. This relationship with the Sindai culture left a lasting impression on the Meditor, and the newly formed Kasan clan adopted much of the same practices of these people, but still revered Calitha. The cultures was so entwined, it could h ave been said the Kasan influenced the Sindai. With the rise of Nithia, the Meditor clans became their official shippers. They transported cargos and people to and fro. They sailed Nithian colonist west to the Savage Coast and as far east as the Isle of Dawn. Their travels brought news to the Traladaran of a southern continent, and even gave news to the Halflings that there was a northern continent. Relations with the Nithians became estranged, and many clans wanted to stop dealings with Nithia. When Nithia asked for further transport of colonists and troops to support Harbortown, the Meditor refused, and soon Nithia lost contact with Harbortown altogether. The loss of Harbortown caused a great dislike of the elves, and soon the relationship became openly hostile. When Mealiden came to the area now known as Thyatis, they received a very hostile welcome from the Nithians and soon moved further west to areas near Traladara and on the plains area of the Canolbarth. When the Shiye asked for help to travel further east, the waters and coastline were hostile to the elven ships. Several shipwrecked She and Meditor moved further inland on the Isle of Dawn and became the Trueflowers of today. When Nithia collapsed, due to immortal intervention, the Meditor lost much knowledge as well; because of so many ties to the Nithian presence from trading to open hostility. Many ports of call became abandoned and forgotten. Around 400 AC, the Meditor’s ties to the Sindai culture were severed, as the Sindai were conquered by many shapshifters and lycanthropes. This “invasion” was so swift and sudden that the Meditor had no power to help and all traces of elvish influence were eradicated by the shapshifters so the Sindai would not contact the elves for help. When lycanthropes were discovered within the Minrothad Isles some 43 years later, the Meditor and Verdier clans did not hesitate to act and cause the Silver Purge. There are ten clans of the Meditor. Elsan, Kelar, Mapseir, Manre, Kasan, Notless, Leanore, Kiddell, Kesan, and Meditor. Kelar is one of the newest clans, formed from a split within clan Elsan. The Kasan clans carry the heavier influence from early dealings with the Sindai. These clans are the Elsan, Mapseir, Manre, Kesan, and Kelar. These clans are famous for their intricate artwork adorning everything that can be engraved, embossed, painted or embroidered. They use a calligraphic style of writing that is familiar to the Sindai people of ancient times, and since the Ylari viewed these elves in such high esteem (because of their mastery of the ocean), they adopted a script form of their writing. Modern Minrothadian writing uses a cursive style of Alphatian, which is heavily influenced by the Meditor Calligraphy. Direct Sindai influence was even further strengthened when a wizardly Samdu, named Elyas, immigrated to North Island in 750 AC. Elyas introduced a new way of thinking called the Quiet Way. His followers call themselves the Siswa, but are a mixture of differing clans. Their village, Kota-Hutan, is the only other village on the island besides Gapton. In 825 AC, Elyas had the help of both elves and dwarfs build his tower and temple area to teach more of the peaceful culture of the Quiet Way. Once Gapton itself was built in 900 AC other races have come to Gapton to study the teachings of Elyas, and because of the growing stops to Gapton, are gaining in numbers. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 16:41:33 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Meditor/Verdeir/Vyalia Timeline Events Cutting and pasting from the various timelines on the Vaults, I came up with the following events that might be useful for further developing the clans mentioned in the Subject: BC 3500: 6 elven clans from Davania travel to the Known World region on Brun. These are the ancestors of modern day Shadow elves (4 clans), the Aquarendi and the Gefronnel. 3100 BC: Aquarendi elves seek the guardianship of Manwara, an Immortal of the Sea, and enter the warm waters to begin a new life. (PC3) BC 2800: Ilsundals migration leaves Grunland BC 2300: Ilsundals migration travels across to the Immortals arm. A second group breaks off from the main one travelling across to the Serpent Peninsula. BC 2100 Of those some clans rejoin with Ilsundal, travelling on towards the sylvan realm. Others, the Sheyalla, Verdier and Meditor (and I’m guessing the Vyalia) break off from Ilsundals migration. The Sheyalla settle in the Serpent peninsula area. The other clans settle in the Known World area. 1750 BC: The earthquakes rock the Sea of Dread, changing the coastline, forming new islands. Meditor elves are stranded on the newly formed Minrothad Isles. 1700 BC: The elves of Glantri discover, in the Broken Lands, a strange artifact from the lost Blackmoor civilisation. They tinker with it, and the artifact explodes cataclysmically, sending impenetrable clouds into the sky (which last for years), and spreading a strange rotting plague among the surviving elves - those who were far enough away to survive. The elves shelter themselves in the deepest caves of Glantri. They find an incredible series of caverns there and begin a years-long migration. The travelling tribes are separated from one another. These are the ancestors of the Hollow World's Gentle Folk, Icevale Elves, and the Schattenalfen. A fourth group, led by an elf named Atziann, has no survivors save that king. Some emerge, years later, hundreds of miles south, past the Broken lands. Some perish. BC 1680 : Verdier Elves build ships to visit their Meditor cousins on the Minrothad Isles (Shouldn’t it be the other way around?) IIRC the Vyalia are also described to have pale skin, this matches the Meditor, although why they are similar to the Shadow Elves remains unknown. 1290 BC: The outer-world Shadow Elf city of Aengmor is "destroyed" (actually, merely surrounded by lava and made uninhabitable) during a volcanic eruption; many Schattenalfen escape, burrowing deeper into the crust of the earth. Actually, this is part of a grand scheme of Atzanteotl, their patron. 1104 BC: Underground elves discover the Refuge of Stone and take the name of shadow elves unto themselves. Building work begins on the City of Stars. Myfallar The Old is chosen as temporary King. 1100 BC: Nithians lead by Minroth colonise the islands later to be called the Minrothad islands, and found Harbortown. Nithians under Prince Ramenhotep establish the colony of Thothia on the Isle of Dawn. This is the eastern extent of Nithian colonisation. 1000 BC: Gnoll Invasions of Traldara lands. Milen Flees across the Sea. Nithian Civilization is at its peak. Meanwhile, an expedition of Shadow Elves leaves the City of Stars in an effort to find the path to the surface world. Instead, they find their way to the Hollow World, where they are fatally poisoned by the rays of the eternal sun. Some of them make it back to the City of the Stars with news of their voyage, but all soon perish. (KW/HW) 800 BC: Mealidens expedition travels from the Sylvan Realm to the Known World. The Callarii settle in Traladara. The Shyie, following Eiryndul break off and travel to Alphatia. The main group of Mealidens migration settle in the area that will become Alfheim and begin growing a mighty forest there. 700 BC: Mealiden is acclaimed King of Alfheim. 500 BC Nithia Destroyed 250 BC: Mealiden becomes an Immortal of the Sphere of Energy 0 AC: First Emperor Crowned in Thyatis. ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 16:49:25 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Verdier/Vyalia/Meditor idea Although canon is vague on the origins of the Vyalia, I am making the assumption that these belong to the same group. Furthermore, I'd like to make some connection between this group and the Shadowelves. What if these originally belonged to a subrace of elves characterised by pale skin? This would help explain why the Shadowelves turned to distinctly different over so few generations. Also, this might be the reason why the Verdier/Vyalia/Meditor elves left Ilsundals migration; they wanted to rejoin with the Proto-Shadowelves. Settling down south of those, the newcomers were eventually split with one clan on Minrothad, one on the Thyatian coast and a third, the Water Elves, travelling between the two. Now, I am totally confused about which are the Water elves, the Meditor or the Verdier. I believed the Meditor were the Water Elves, but if so, Daniel Boese's timeline is wrong... Havard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 16:53:54 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: More Elf ideas Further ponderings on the elf issues: Whatabout religion? Quite a few non-canon articles on the Vaults suggest that the Vyalia were given Trees of Life by the Mealiden migration. This probably means that their original religion (Ordana cult) was at least in part replaced by worship of Ilsundal. Although I still suspect that the Ordana cult exists there. What of the Wood and Water elves on Minrothad? There, the Calitha Cult, has taken over, especially among the Water Elves, mixed in with the Elyas/Siswa philosphy. What of the Wood Elves, are they still followers of Ordana? Havard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 11:38:51 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: More Elf ideas ============================================================ From: Havard Faanes Further ponderings on the elf issues: ============================================================ Having the Vyalia being an offshoot of the Meditor and Verdier clan does fit. With the upheavals and Taymor collapse and resulting plague, many Meditor go back to the Forest Path and interbreed with the Verdier and form a new clan, they Vyalia. This gives them their paler skin tone. Now if we go back to the Minrothad Gaz, it states that the Verdier sought after a Tree of Life like the one Ilsundal copied from Ordana. Could then the Trees of Life the Vyalia have, be the real originals? Now if Vyalia are an offshoot of the Verdier, and they both worship Ordana, they why won’t the Vyalia offer help in the Verdier’s search of a Tree of Life? Possibly because of the association of the Ilsundal curse of the Meditor and the continued support of the Verdier of the Meditor. So the curse actually affects the Verdier to be lost without a Tree of Life (The Meditor did not help Ilsundal because the Verdier did not want to leave). The Vyalia further differentiate themselves in re ligion by adopting Zirchev in later times with Ordana. The Verdier actually worship the same immortal, Ordana, which the Evergrun elves worshiped since the beginning of time. Their religion would be the purist and oldest of all the elves. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:15:20 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: More Elf ideas Now following this line we have the Verdier having Ordana’s Tree of Life. When the elves moved from Evergrun to Grunland, many Trees of Life did not make the move. When Ilsundal wanted to move again, the Verdier did not want to lose another Tree of Life, and refused to give Ilsundal one as well. This forced Ilsundal to create his own many years later. This also gives a very good reason of why when they meet each other again along the Savage Coast, they are not taken in by Ilsundal very well. Perhaps at this meeting, Ilsundal gives a second curse upon the Verdier that in later times the Verdier lose their Tree of Life. Now also, within 50 years of the earthquakes that sundered the Verdier from the mainland, another catastrophe happens in the Glantrian Valley, and some Glantrian elves move south, some of them could have helped form the Vyalia (and in later times, influenced by the Espa, the Becadiz are formed and go back to Glantri with their claim they were their first) . When Mealiden arrives in what would be Thyatis, the Vyalia are already well established. If Mealiden is forced away by humans, why would Mealiden give the Vyalia a Tree of Life if the Vyalia did not help them against the humans? Also, in CM7, I believe the Thyatian Clans’ Trees of Life were not affected, which means they did not come from the Sylvan Realm with Mealiden. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 15:47:47 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: More Elf ideas If we search back on earlier posts, especially done by Marco Dalmonte; we know there are 9 seedlings brought with Mealiden. Six are in Alfheim, one is with the Callarii and nobody knows where the other two are. I would say that maybe some elves of Mealiden stayed with the Vyalia and gave them one of the Trees of Life, and the other went with the Shiye. Two canonical elements support this; Norwold’s elves have relics (ToL) and are Shiye, and "When a Forester trainee is ready to become a Forester formally, [..] the Forester is taken to the Tree of Life of the sponsoring clan (this tree is hidden deep in the forest, far off the recognizable forest trails). There, in a special ceremony, he is formally adopted by the clan and visited by a ghostly presence called an Arm of Ilsundal, which fill him with the energies which will allow him to cast magic as the elves do." (DotE, Book 1, page 13) This also means the Vyalia’s ToL is from Ilsundal and not Ordana. Now another hook cou ld be this… Both ToLs are given to the Vyalia and the Shiye are left with nothing. The Shiye not being daunted steal Ordana’s ToL(s) from the Verdier. Since the Meditor helped the Shiye leave eastwards, and did not know about the missing trees, a rift begins to form between the Verdier and Meditor. Another note on the Trueflower clan, nothing is mentioned that they have a ToL, so I would not give them one. I would also think many elves consider the Vyalia as 'dirty elves'. They deal with humans by adopting them into their clans, and if we say they are a mixture of elves from Meditor, Verdier and later a clan or two from Mealiden, we have pretty good mix (and why we have 6 clans in later times). ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 6 Jul 2004 to 7 Jul 2004 (#2004-139) **************************************************************