Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 8 Jul 2004 to 9 Jul 2004 (#2004-141) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 10/07/2004, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 24 messages totalling 801 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Comments to Chris's Elven Timeline 1 (5) 2. Blackmoor preview (2) 3. More Elf ideas (11) 4. - Doulakki (3) 5. New Elven Timeline (long) 6. Belcadiz (2) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:34:13 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Comments to Chris's Elven Timeline 1 > 3500 BC: 6 elven clans from Davania travel to the > Known World region on Brun. These are the ancestors > of modern day Shadow elves (Celebryl, the Porador, > the Felistyr, and Gelbalf), the Aquarendi and the > Gefronnel. I'd add the Anuliinde and Calol clans, whose name, I think, were created by Valerya. She indicated that those clans were destroyed as being too near Blackmoor, although Frederic Perronet wrote a fan-based nation based on these two clans, whose name I don't remember outright... > 2600 BC: Climatic changes due to the axial shift > have rendered the lands of Blackmoor and the elves > uninhabitable. In Vulcania, the elvish civilization > is losing its battle with the elements; it has > forgotten most of its magic and its Blackmoor > technology is failing. A second separatist group of > southern elves (the Sheyallia and Mohesia) ask the > Meditor to transport them northwards. In return the > Sheyallia gift the Meditor with the ability to find > their way back home. Let's see if I got your idea: 1) Mohesia is the name of the clan that will stop in Savage Coast. The name is MML based, not canon, right? 2) Is it written anywhere in canon that the Sheyallia went with the second migration, or did you decide it? Giulio ____________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Companion - Scarica gratis la toolbar di Ricerca di Yahoo! http://companion.yahoo.it ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:36:31 -0400 From: Dustin Clingman Subject: Blackmoor preview Hi Folks, Well the time has come to let you see what we have been doing all this time. Dave Arneson's Blackmoor Preview #1 is now available for download. You can get a copy at: http://www.goodman-games.com/index.php. This preview focuses on the races of Blackmoor and shows some of the character options in Blackmoor. I am eager to hear opinions/comments on the materials, so have at it! Dustin -- Dustin Clingman Zeitgeist Games, Inc. www.zeitgeistgames.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:13:46 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Comments to Chris's Elven Timeline 1 ============================================================ From: la Volpe Let's see if I got your idea: 1) Mohesia is the name of the clan that will stop in Savage Coast. The name is MML based, not canon, right? 2) Is it written anywhere in canon that the Sheyallia went with the second migration, or did you decide it? ============================================================ I belive I picked the name Mohesia from an area in the SC by that name. Depending on where you look, many different clans came in the second migration, and then the same clans are listed as leaving Ilsundal's group to cut accross the Addakian Sound (2 different events). I stretched some things here, as nowhere does it say the Grunalf clan was around at this time either. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:16:31 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: More Elf ideas Chris Cherrington wrote: > > Having the Vyalia being an offshoot of the Meditor and Verdier clan > does fit. With the upheavals and Taymor collapse and resulting > plague, many Meditor go back to the Forest Path and interbreed with > the Verdier and form a new clan, they Vyalia. In my Taymoran work, the Meditor, Verdier and Vyalia clans are all related, being part of an original group of elves who split from Ilsundal migration and reached Taymora during the height of the Taymoran City-States. They served as mercenaries for several Taymoran Necromancer-Kings and were rewarded with land east of Taymora itself (from the Vyalia land to Minrothad, passing through Thyatis and the now submerged regions between the Thyatian coast and Minrothad), though some settled in the City-States. When Taymora was destroyed, a large part of the elves died, but the Meditor clan survived in the newly formed islands, while the Verdier and Vyalia were unaffected, since their lands were north of the destroyed regions. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:19:13 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: More Elf ideas Havard Faanes wrote: > > I'd also like to bring in the Belcadiz here. Unless > there are other explainations for the origin of the > Belcadiz, I'd say that these were also descended from > the Vyalia. The Belcadiz (originally Belcadiel) were > another Vyalia clan that was in even closer contact > with the humans, eventually adopting their > culture(Kerendan), possibly even interbreeding with > them. The Belcadiz then migrated to Glantri along with > the Thyatians who moved there. IIRC, the Belcadiz are the descendants of the original settlers of Glantri (elves splitting from Ilsundal's migration), who went south after the second explosion and returned much later to the Highlands. Their language hints to a passage of them among the Thyatian tribes, but they seem to have moved back earlier than the Thyatian colonists of Glantri. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:23:44 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Comments to Chris's Elven Timeline 1 Chris Cherrington wrote: > > la Volpe >> >> Let's see if I got your idea: 1) Mohesia is the name of the clan >> that will stop in Savage Coast. > > I belive I picked the name Mohesia from an area in the SC by that > name. Mohesia is one of the main regions of Eusdria (Mohesia, Savaria, Frisonnia, and Harstal). However, it is mostly inhabited by humans. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:30:57 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: - Doulakki [options for the Doulakki] Geoff Gander wrote: > > 1. They exist in the HW: > > 2. They still exist: > > 3. The Doulakki were not saved: A few ideas: some of the Doulakki culture might have been preserved in Cynidicea (IMO a Doulakki or Nithian-Doulakki city-state). Or the Immortal patrons of the Doulakki might have been destroyed, and would therefore have been unable to save them. Bye, GP -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:46:55 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Blackmoor preview Hi, I have already made some comments on this at the ZGG Forum, but figured I'd make a post here aswell. First of all: Wow! :) It is great to see what the final product will look like, and the preview gives a good impression of that. The writeups of the races are nice, with quite a few surprises! A few races weren't included as PC races, but those will appear in the Monster Section and will be detailed in future products, so more goodies to look forward to there! I really like the layout and artwork! Will this appear in color in the final version? Even if it doesn't it looks really nice in B/W aswell. I love the art. My favorite illustration so far is the very first one in chapter 1, with the different characters in front and what I am guessing is Castle Blackmoor in the background. It made me really want to go visit the setting right away, so it is an excellent choice for an opening illustration. The Illustration of the Dwarf we have already seen in earlier previews, but it is still one of my favorites. The illustrations of the races is also nice. The cartoony feel makes it different from similar illustrations in other d20 sourcebooks. Overall, it is really nice to see the preview, now I cant wait to get my hands on the actual Soucebook. What do other people think of it? :) PS: I took the liberty of posting the link over at rec.games.frp.dnd aswell. I'm sure there are people there who want to take a look too :) Havard --- Dustin Clingman skrev: > Hi Folks, > > Well the time has come to let you see what we have > been doing all this > time. Dave Arneson's Blackmoor Preview #1 is now > available for download. > You can get a copy at: > http://www.goodman-games.com/index.php. This > preview focuses on the races of Blackmoor and shows > some of the > character options in Blackmoor. I am eager to hear > opinions/comments on > the materials, so have at it! > > Dustin > > -- > Dustin Clingman > Zeitgeist Games, Inc. > www.zeitgeistgames.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > --------------------~--> > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion > Toolbar. > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/7bYplB/TM > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/d20blackmoor/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email > to: > d20blackmoor-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:48:55 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Comments to Chris's Elven Timeline 1 ============================================================ From: la Volpe I'd add the Anuliinde and Calol clans, whose name, I think, were created by Valerya. She indicated that those clans were destroyed as being too near Blackmoor, although Frederic Perronet wrote a fan-based nation based on these two clans, whose name I don't remember outright... ============================================================ http://www.dnd.starflung.com/calen.html for the Calengaer, the Green Ocean. http://www.geocities.com/valerya1/elfclans.html for Valerya's work. I will check into this more indepth. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:50:04 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: More Elf ideas --- Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > In my Taymoran work, the Meditor, Verdier and Vyalia > clans are all > related, being part of an original group of elves > who split from > Ilsundal migration and reached Taymora during the > height of the Taymoran > City-States. They served as mercenaries for several > Taymoran > Necromancer-Kings and were rewarded with land east > of Taymora itself > (from the Vyalia land to Minrothad, passing through > Thyatis and the now > submerged regions between the Thyatian coast and > Minrothad), though some > settled in the City-States. > When Taymora was destroyed, a large part of the > elves died, but the > Meditor clan survived in the newly formed islands, > while the Verdier and > Vyalia were unaffected, since their lands were north > of the destroyed > regions. I think this version perhaps fits even better than the one Chris and I have been discussing. What do you say Chris? Havard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:53:25 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: More Elf ideas --- Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > IIRC, the Belcadiz are the descendants of the > original settlers of > Glantri (elves splitting from Ilsundal's migration), > who went south > after the second explosion and returned much later > to the Highlands. > Their language hints to a passage of them among the > Thyatian tribes, but > they seem to have moved back earlier than the > Thyatian colonists of Glantri. What is your source for this? The only thing I could find in Gaz 3 is that the Belcadiz come from a land south of the Thanegioth Sea. It would make sense if they were part of the migration of the Verdier/Meditor/Sheyella/Vyalia though. Still, the problem remains on how to explain their culture and distinct appearance... Havard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:08:44 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Comments to Chris's Elven Timeline 1 ============================================================ From: Giampaolo Agosta Mohesia is one of the main regions of Eusdria (Mohesia, Savaria, Frisonnia, and Harstal). However, it is mostly inhabited by humans. ============================================================ This is a remnant from my campaign. The regions (IMC) were named after the elf clans that had at one time lived there and influenced the humans before moving on and dying out. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:11:44 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: New Elven Timeline (long) Christopher M Cherrington wrote: > > Gaz 3 describes the Flaems calling the "Fair Elves" the Pale Ones- pg 4. Probably it should be considered from the point of view of the Flaem, who are copper-skinned. The Belcadiz are darker-skinned than most elves, but still paler than the Flaem. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:15:46 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: More Elf ideas ============================================================ From: Giampaolo Agosta IIRC, the Belcadiz are the descendants of the original settlers of Glantri (elves splitting from Ilsundal's migration), who went south after the second explosion and returned much later to the Highlands. Their language hints to a passage of them among the Thyatian tribes, but they seem to have moved back earlier than the Thyatian colonists of Glantri. ============================================================ Mishler's explanation of the Belcadiz in his Espa work is the only thing I did not care for, sorry James. That is why I placed these Glantrian survivors near Doulakki. Eventually they will adopt the Espa tongue and migrate to Glantri. In Gaz 3, the Belcadiz do arrive at the same time as the Thyatians, and after the Erewan. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:22:38 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: More Elf ideas ============================================================ From: Giampaolo Agosta In my Taymoran work, ============================================================ I believe in my timeline I kept the Vyalia as an already joined Meditor and Verdier clan. This keeps the relation of clans together; but since they don't really seem to get along that well, as the Vyalia stay deep in the forests and the Verdier build ships to get away and settle next to the Meditor. Within 40-50 years, remnants of the Glantri elves appear on the shores and I have them join the Vyalia and also create their own clan of the Belcadiel. I will revisit your Taymor timeline to include their history together, as I believe it would have an important impact. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:29:32 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: More Elf ideas Havard Faanes wrote: > > > What is your source for this? The only thing I could > find in Gaz 3 is that the Belcadiz come from a land > south of the Thanegioth Sea. IIRC, Gaz 3 says that they returned from a land far to the south. > Still, the problem remains on how to explain their > culture and distinct appearance... I'd definitely go for the human blood idea. IMO their culture depends from interaction with Kerendan humans somewhere in the Sea of Dread (probably the Ispan island described by James Mishler). Their appearance could have the same origin. Bye, GP -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:30:49 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: More Elf ideas ============================================================ From: Havard Faanes What is your source for this? The only thing I could find in Gaz 3 is that the Belcadiz come from a land south of the Thanegioth Sea. ============================================================ They still do. All elves in the Known World (except Wendar) come from the south of the Thanegioth Sea. I still can't find any referance of the Belcadiz as being bronze, only fair. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:38:46 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: More Elf ideas ============================================================ From: Havard Faanes I think this version perhaps fits even better than the one Chris and I have been discussing. What do you say Chris? ============================================================ I have the image in my head now of elves scampering for their ships in Taymorian ports of call to escape, only thinking of their survival they push back the crowds and several Necromancer Kings let loose a disastrous plague to blight the survivors. Scenes of Pompeii and even the burning of Alexandria are coursing through my head… ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:48:04 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: More Elf ideas Chris Cherrington wrote: > > In Gaz 3, the Belcadiz do > arrive at the same time as the Thyatians, and after the Erewan. Are you sure? The History on page four of the Gaz implies exactly the opposite: ``...southern elves find a trail back to Glantri. [...] The news spread fast, and soon clans of fair elves...'' I think here ``southern elves'' means the Belcadiz, and ``fair elves'' means the Erewan. The whole text says that the Belcadiz arrived first (after the Flaems, of course) and only later, as the news of their arrival reached them, the Erewan followed. Bye, GP -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:27:18 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: More Elf ideas ============================================================ From: Giampaolo Agosta I think here ``southern elves'' means the Belcadiz, and ``fair elves'' means the Erewan. The whole text says that the Belcadiz arrived first (after the Flaems, of course) and only later, as the news of their arrival reached them, the Erewan followed. ============================================================ I will double check tonight. The timeline does have the Erewan leave for Glantri at 700AC and the Belcadiz at 730AC. A possibility may be the Belcadiz found a way back, but by the time they were ready to leave, so were many others and the Erewan's were closer to get their sooner. Don't they have many rifts by saying who was here first? The Erewan say they were first, and tend to knock down the claim the Belcadiz were there before. Any elf for that matter. I can see Belcadiz adventurers finding a way back to their lands their grandfathers called home, blabbing about how grand they will be recieved by their clansman inside local taverns all the way back home. Only to be frustrated when everyone and their brother are heading straight to the good parts and settle in before they are ready. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:50:02 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Belcadiz Gaz 3, s 20: "They came from a far land, beyond the seas of Thanegioth. They are similar to the elves of Alfheim, although their skin is darker and their hair is black and wavy. They dress and act in a fashion of the 17th century Spanish nobles. Vain and arrogant, their honor is a touchy subject." Okay, I originally thought it said "their skin is dark", but it actually says "their skin is darker", which is a difference. Still, having darker skin than the Alfheim Elves means pale skin is definately out. I'm guessing they have tan to olive skin, similar to the stereotypical spanish that they are meant to resemble. As far as I can see, the elven immigration is not mentioned in the timeline in Gaz 3... Håvard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:35:32 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Belcadiz ============================================================ From: Havard Faanes ============================================================ I will accept I have been defeated. My favorite character from Glantri will just have to change his looks (He speaks Espan anyway, everyone just assumes your Belcadiz when you have a flair for bright and flashy magic). The skin and hair could account from being mixed with human blood (like the Doulakki). The Belcadiz coming across the sea, moving to Glantri, being displaced, and then moving back; they will still want to say they came from far across the sea. Their jaunt in Thyatis was only a resting spot while they gathered their energies to move back home; they did settle Glantri the first time from across the sea, that part is right. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:57:03 -0400 From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: - Doulakki Chris wrote: I think we can keep Traladaran the RW Slavic, and anything that was once considered Traladaran Greek, could be corrected to Doulakki. Well, what we did for the Cyndicea project a few years back was have the Traldar and the Doulakki be related - both being early M-Greek cultures. The Traldar who followed Milen eventually fled to Davania to become the Milenians (as per canon), most of the Doulakki were absorbed by the Thyatians or other populations (ie: Darokinians for the Doulakki of Salonikos [Selenica], and Athenos, Nithians/Thothians for the cities of Ektos [Ekto] and Trikelios), and the Traldar who lived in Karameikos were beaten back to the stone age - so much so that their culture was completely destroyed, and they adopted the culture of another people in the region - possibly the Darine, maybe some other group that has since been absorbed - to produce the Romanian culture that exists now. This last element wasn't included in the Cynidicea sourcebook (which dealt with the Doulakki - this was, IIRC, the first instance that they were even discussed in the Mystaran community), and it obviously won't answer the question to everyone's satisfaction, but for most people's purposes (ie: the players) we figured it would do the job. The ideal solution would have been TSR not making such a mistake in the first place, but we can't have everything. :-) > Would that make Millenians related to Doulakki? Pretty much, IMO. There may not be a direct relation, as between the Traldar and the Milenians, but insofar as the Doulakki and Traldar are related, so they are with the Milenians, as well. > It is not canon to say the least, but that could be up to some very well versed explorers to find the Rosetta Stone of the Doulakki culture and have them rewrite history. So little of what we do is canon, but I think the vast majority of what gets produced here not only complements it; it surpasses the original in many respects. We originally set out to flesh out the Cynidiceans, who seemed sort of Greek, and worked from there. Making them Doulakki seemed to be an interesting idea, and doing so doesn't really change an existing campaign world at all. As far as the Doulakki culture and language is concerned, you can handle it a couple of ways. You could follow my 2nd option, and have it exist still in certain regions of Thyatis, or, you can take a page from Matthew Levy (a former member of the MML, who worked on the Cynidicea Project) and say that, after the absorption of the Doulakki by the Thyatians, Doulakki became a language of scholars, and thus might still be taught in universities and the like. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:07:27 -0400 From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: - Doulakki Agathokles wrote: > A few ideas: some of the Doulakki culture might have been preserved in > Cynidicea (IMO a Doulakki or Nithian-Doulakki city-state). > Or the Immortal patrons of the Doulakki might have been destroyed, and > would therefore have been unable to save them. That was what we did, actually - we developed the Cynidiceans as a remnant of the Doulakki culture. Given that Gorm, Usamigaras, and Madarua are minor Immortals, and are concerned only with Cynidicea, anyway, they would only have focused on saving their own followers - they wouldn't have cared what happened to the other Doulakki city-states, which presumably had their own patrol Immortals, who may or may not still exist. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 8 Jul 2004 to 9 Jul 2004 (#2004-141) **************************************************************