Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 11 Jul 2004 to 12 Jul 2004 (#2004-144) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 13/07/2004, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 21 messages totalling 697 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Belcadiz (4) 2. Belcadiz two times in Glantri? (11) 3. Elves in 3e (2) 4. Arcana Mystara (2) 5. Twisted Elves (2) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:32:59 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Belcadiz la Volpe wrote: > > > What if we stretched a bit this, and decided that it > was beyond the seas of Thanegioth...but in the WEST, > making them come from the Savage Coast? Thus we could > assume that the "spanish" elements of the Ispan people > were introduced by the elven culture of the Savage > Coast, and borrowed from the humans that settled > there. > I have always found strange (if not outright ridiculous) that in 100 > years a human culture could completely alter the elven culture of > an area that has been elven for so long. It doesn't work with what we know of the SC -- e.g., people in Torreon speak Espa, but the language of the aristocracy is elven. OTOH, there are significant elven populations in Bellayne, Eusdria, Robrenn and Torreon. Each of these nations has a different language. Therefore solving the ``problem'' with the Baronies doesn't change much, since you're left with the same problem in other regions. However, the reason for human culture to supplant elven culture in the SC is that there were very few elves surviving in the Savage Baronies when the colonists arrived, so they had to integrate with the dominant human society. Traits of the elven culture survived, other than among the elves themselves, in the general SC society: e.g., the cults of Mealiden Starwatcher and Ilsundal are much more popular with humans of the SC than any other human-dominated region, the Warrior's Code has elven origins, etc. Where a (reasonably) large elven population is found (Torreon, of all the Baronies), elves do have a significant influence on the human culture, and elven is spoken. BTW, note that the SC has never been an ``elven area'', as Alfheim or the Sylvan Realm: elves have been living there for a long time, but mixed and overlapped with the Oltec humans, who, before the goblinoid invasion that destroyed them, where the major power of the eastern part of the Coast. If you still want to have some justification for the similarity between Belcadiz and Espa culture, you could assume that the Ispan culture (original culture of the colonists) was developed somewhere in Davania or Thanegioth by Kerendan humans and Belcadiz elves. Some ``Belcadiz'' elves might have been part of the colonization effort, therefore explaining the good acceptance of Espa culture in Torreon. Bye, GP -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:09:48 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: Belcadiz > If you still want to have some justification for the > similarity between > Belcadiz and Espa culture, you could assume that the > Ispan culture > (original culture of the colonists) was developed > somewhere in Davania > or Thanegioth by Kerendan humans and Belcadiz elves. > Some ``Belcadiz'' > elves might have been part of the colonization > effort, therefore > explaining the good acceptance of Espa culture in > Torreon. Ok, I'll probably go with this. I NEED justifications, I can't stand to explain things with "Magic!" or "It's just a fantasy setting, after all." 8-) Giulio ____________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Companion - Scarica gratis la toolbar di Ricerca di Yahoo! http://companion.yahoo.it ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:12:20 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Belcadiz two times in Glantri? Sorry if I ask a stupid question, but from the various posts on the Belcadiz, I seem to understand that the Belcadiz elves arrived in Glantri, then left and later returned (around 730 AC). Is this canon? Where does this info come from? When did they arrive the first time? Thanks in advance. Giulio ____________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Companion - Scarica gratis la toolbar di Ricerca di Yahoo! http://companion.yahoo.it ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:40:21 +0200 From: Matteo Barnabe' Subject: Re: Elves in 3e > Following the discussion about the origins of the > Known World elves, here is the 3.5 adaptions of the > elven subraces for my campaign. It differs somewhat > from the writeups found on the 3e website, but they > are written for my campaign so... anyways, feel free > to comment on them :) Very useful discussion, thank you! I am always interested in mystaran conversions of the 3E rules! Btw, in the "Mystara 3E" Campaign that I am presently running I use the following (home-)rules for elves: ALFHEIM ELVES: Favored Class: Sorcerer AND Ranger (yes, two favored classes, to try to maintain a kind of continuity with the OD&D Elves and Gaz. 5 importantnt NPCs) EREWAN ELVES Favored Class: Wizard AND Ranger (I have chosen wizard instead of sorcerer here because of the Glantrian background; IMC sorceres are quite despised in Glantri: according to the law of Principalities only wizards can graduate at the Great School of Magic and become part of the aristocracy) BELCADIZ ELVES Favored Class: Wizard AND Fighter Weapon Proficiency: all Belcadiz Elves receive martial weapon proficiency feats with rapier OR longsword and the exotic weapon proficiency feat with main-gauche (I imagine Belcadiz elves as skillful and technical swordsmen, and more "urban" than typical elves) main-gauche (that I have introduced in my campaign to better characterize a Belcadiz Elf Duelist PC) has basically the same statistics of dagger (piercing, dam. 1d4), but critical is 18-20/x2 (to make it the natural partner of the rapier) and, with the proper feats and requisites (Two Weapon Fighting, Des 13 and +3 attack bonus if I remember correctly) it can be used to accomplish the Main-Gauche Parry maneuver (very similar to the Off-Hand Parry feat detailed in the "Sword and Fist" splatbook). I still haven't thought how to detail other mystaran elves, as I am adapting 3E step by step according to my campaign needs. However, I think that Shiye-Lawr Elves should have Rogue and Sorcerer as favored class, Shadowelves Cleric and Wizard, and Graakhalia Elves (I do not remember the exact name, I mean the Elves that live with gnolls= under the Plain of Fire) could be excellent Barbarians and Sorceres. Just my two cents... I hope it helps! ;-) Matteo __________________________________________________________________ Tiscali ADSL libera la velocita'! Attiva Senza Canone entro il 12 luglio: navighi a 1,5 euro l'ora per i pr= imi 3 mesi,se scegli il modem e' tuo in comodato gratuito e in piu' hai grati= s SuperMail per 12 mesi. Non aspettare, attivala subito! http://abbonati.tiscali.it/adsl/prodotti/640Kbps/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:53:30 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Belcadiz two times in Glantri? la Volpe wrote: > Sorry if I ask a stupid question, but from the various > posts on the Belcadiz, I seem to understand that the > Belcadiz elves arrived in Glantri, then left and later > returned (around 730 AC). Is this canon? Where does > this info come from? When did they arrive the first > time? The Belcadiz claim to have arrived in Glantri before the second explosion, having left Grunland on a migration following Ilsundal's expedition. It's somewhere between GAZ 3 and 5. Bye, GP -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:23:48 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: Belcadiz two times in Glantri? Ok, and where is it written that they left Glantri to return later? Giulio ____________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Companion - Scarica gratis la toolbar di Ricerca di Yahoo! http://companion.yahoo.it ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:16:17 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Belcadiz two times in Glantri? la Volpe wrote: > Ok, and where is it written that they left Glantri to > return later? GAZ 3, page 4, third column, first and second paragraph (original, I don't remember where it is in the italian version). Bye, GP -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 04:32:09 -0700 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Belcadiz two times in Glantri? la Volpe wrote: Ok, and where is it written that they left Glantri to return later? Gaz5 notes in the history section that the Belcadiz claim to have come from a migration that left Grunland some 300 years after Ilsundal's migration, so they left (seemingly) around 2500 BC. This jibes with the Hollow World's mention of an (unnamed) second migration in 2500 BC (which has been the subject of many discussions in the past, and I only recently noticed the Belcadiz part in the Alfheim gaz that could explain it). A part of Ilsundal's migration breaks off and stays in the highlands (Glantri) c. 2200 BC- this is in the Hollow World timeline, and I believe it is also from Gaz5 (can't recall offhand, and I just put the book away earlier and don't feel like digging it out. :) The Hollow World timeline mentions that a few survivors of the second migration (Belcadiz?) also reach Glantri and settle there. This is a bit odd, as they left 300 years later but arrive at the same time... anyway. The explosion in the Broken Lands occurs when these "Glantrian" elves discover an artifact and cause it to explode, creating the BL and according to most timelines, driving them out of the region. (Gaz13, Gaz5, many of the other Gazzes). Presumably, then, this is when the Belcadiz are driven out of Glantri. Now, oddly (one of many oddities caused by the Hollow World timeline), these elves all went underground, becoming the Truedyl (Gentle Folk), Icevale elves, and Schattenalfen. Now the Schattenalfen are mentioned to have actually encountered the shadowelves and been "adopted" by them (the SE had been underground since 3000 BC, the survivors of Blackmoor). What became of the Icevale elves, I don't know. So this, presumably, is where the idea of the Belcadiz arriving, leaving, then coming back comes from. Where did they go? Not underground, presumably- they'd likely have been mentioned. I'm stumped, though. Now, when did they return? Again, it's unclear. Gaz3 seems to imply the elves didn't come back to the Highlands of Braejr until the Flaems had already been established there for several hundred years (p.4 of Gaz3- I went and dug out my Gazzes just now.) So which elves were these? The Belcadiz, in all likelihood. Gaz5 (on p. 8) mentions that the Erendyl and Erewan split occurred 300 years ago, with the Erewans moving to Glantri. Which means they both presumably arrived around the same time. Glantri: Kingdom of Magic (p. 43) puts the Erewan/Belcadiz split at 884 AC. It also credits the actual recognition of an 'elven' principality in 859 AC. Presumably, then, the elves simply didn't see any need to "officially" make themselves part of the Glantrian government for a long time, and when they did, it was probably the Belcadiz who initiated the maneuver (thus, they were the rulers of the principality, eventually leading the Erewans to split off into their own principality). So, if you go by these little "piecings together" that I've done, then the Belcadiz first arrived c.2200 BC in Glantri, left c. 1700 BC, and returned c. 730 AC. Plenty of time for them to have picked up their spanish ways somewhere else. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 04:38:24 -0700 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Arcana Mystara Sorry to see that the Arcana Mystara is gone- that's one of my bookmarked sites! As to the materials there, I'd suggest contacting Kit Navarro directly. Come to think of it, though, I don't recall seeing him around here lately. Anyone know if he's still on-list? If not, we might want to back up the files on the Glantrian Personnel Division site, too- it's another one of those Geocities sites that they've been deleting left and right. I'd really hate to see the GPD disappear, even if we haven't done a whole lot of work on it recently. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:55:04 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: Belcadiz two times in Glantri? Thanks Agathokles and Cthuludrew for the precious informations. I suppose I have to read James Mishler's articles about Nueva Hispaniola and the Ispan of Thanegioth...this could be the link between Belcadiz, Savage Coast Elves, Ispan and Thyatis, like Giampaolo suggested. And I still have to re-read Chris's timeline. Giulio ____________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Companion - Scarica gratis la toolbar di Ricerca di Yahoo! http://companion.yahoo.it ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:32:36 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Belcadiz ============================================================ From: Giampaolo Agosta ============================================================ Not withstanding the timeline, Thyatians/Espans did not go to the Savage Coast until 900 AC. The Belcadiz where already Flamenco Elves way before then. The elves that lived next to the Oltecs, were wood elves and influenced the cultures enough to change the languages in Robrenn and Eusdria. The Belcadiz are more like elves passing as wannabe humans. They have already adopted a human culture that was established before the Savage Coast. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:51:51 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Belcadiz two times in Glantri? ============================================================ From: Andrew Theisen jsmill@WANS.NET So, if you go by these little "piecings together" that I've done, then the Belcadiz first arrived c.2200 BC in Glantri, left c. 1700 BC, and returned c. 730 AC. Plenty of time for them to have picked up their spanish ways somewhere else. ============================================================ Aha, somebody that saw what I saw! How can a second group leave 300 years after the first and meet at the same time? Easy, one left on foot, the others waited and left by boat. No magic tricks there. Now for the Spanish influence... The Belcadiz were already Spanish and urbanized by 730 AC, the Savage Coast was not Spanish until after the arival of the Thyatians in 900 AC. Mishler was on to something here, the elves adopted the Thyatians' Ispan culture before they left back to Glantri. I would also have to say that since Ispan turned into various dialects like Espa and Verdan, while on the Savage Coast, that the Belcadiz are speaking a form of Ispan that further delineates their commonality to anyone from the Savage Coast. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:10:25 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Belcadiz two times in Glantri? ============================================================ From: Andrew Theisen Now, oddly (one of many oddities caused by the Hollow World timeline), these elves all went underground, becoming the Truedyl (Gentle Folk), Icevale elves, and Schattenalfen. Now the Schattenalfen are mentioned to have actually encountered the shadowelves and been "adopted" by them (the SE had been underground since 3000 BC, the survivors of Blackmoor). What became of the Icevale elves, I don't know. ============================================================ The Schattenalfen did meet with the Shadow Elves. Atziann (as an immortal) turned many followers of Rafael and especially those of the Schattenalfen clan to his way. They settled in Aengmar before being punished and sent through caves to find the Hollow World. Icevales elves settled in a snowy mountainous region of the Hollow World by finding it, they were never brought there; but the place reminded them of the Glantrian Alps that they had left behind. Was not the blighted area of the Shadow Elves’ realm were a missing 5th clan once settled? This is the area of the Crown of Corruption. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:14:04 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Arcana Mystara Andrew Theisen wrote: > > If not, we might want to back up the files on the Glantrian > Personnel Division site, too- it's another one of those Geocities > sites that they've been deleting left and right. I'd really hate to > see the GPD disappear, even if we haven't done a whole lot of work > on it recently. It's all safely stored in my HD. I've had the same idea this morning, and started backing up a few geocities sites that might not survive, including Paparazzi Glantri and the GPD. Bye, GP -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:17:42 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Belcadiz Chris Cherrington wrote: > > Not withstanding the timeline, Thyatians/Espans did not go to the > Savage Coast until 900 AC. The Belcadiz where already Flamenco > Elves way before then. Yes. > The elves that lived next to the Oltecs, > were wood elves and influenced the cultures enough to change the > languages in Robrenn and Eusdria. The Belcadiz are more like elves > passing as wannabe humans. They have already adopted a human > culture that was established before the Savage Coast. I agree. That's why I would say that the Belcadiz developed their culture somewhere in the area of influence of the early Thyatians, either in Davania or in the Thanegioth archipelago. Bye, GP -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:37:46 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Belcadiz two times in Glantri? > The Hollow World timeline mentions that a few survivors of the > second migration (Belcadiz?) also reach Glantri and settle there. > This is a bit odd, as they left 300 years later but arrive at the > same time... anyway. As Chris said, they might just have moved by sea rather than taking the long route through Addakia. My idea is that the second migration moved by ship from northern Davania to the Serpent Peninsula, while Ilsundal crossed to the Immortal's Arm, therefore making his journey much longer. Also, the second migration might have involved a much smaller number of elves, making it faster. > Now, oddly (one of many oddities caused by the Hollow World > timeline), these elves all went underground, becoming the Truedyl > (Gentle Folk), Icevale elves, and Schattenalfen. Now the > Schattenalfen are mentioned to have actually encountered the > shadowelves and been "adopted" by them (the SE had been underground > since 3000 BC, the survivors of Blackmoor). What became of the > Icevale elves, I don't know. Not so odd, actually: those who did not go underground where killed by radiation poisoning, so only those who went underground survived. Some reached the Hollow World, some surfaced south of Darokin (IIRC, this was a now-extinct elf clan in the 5 Shires). The Belcadiz probably got back to the surface somewhere in the southern coast of Brun, then sailed south to Davania. > So this, presumably, is where the idea of the Belcadiz arriving, > leaving, then coming back comes from. Where did they go? Not > underground, presumably- they'd likely have been mentioned. I'm > stumped, though. Actually, it is said in GAZ 3, a few paragraphs above my previous citation. They went underground, and emerged ``hundred of miles south, past the Broken Lands''. > Now, when did they return? Again, it's unclear. Gaz3 seems to imply > the elves didn't come back to the Highlands of Braejr until the > Flaems had already been established there for several hundred years > (p.4 of Gaz3- I went and dug out my Gazzes just now.) Exactly. Apparently, they only came back a few years before the other colonists, since the timeline does not even mention them as a separate influx of colonists. > So, if you go by these little "piecings together" that I've done, > then the Belcadiz first arrived c.2200 BC in Glantri, left c. 1700 > BC, and returned c. 730 AC. Plenty of time for them to have picked > up their spanish ways somewhere else. Yes. The Belcadiz where between ``hundred of miles south, past the Broken Lands'' and ``somewhere beyond the Sea of Thanegioth'' for more than two millennia. During the first part of this time, the regions that will become the western Known World are not civilized, so the Belcadiz might have passed through without leaving traces. In 1000 BC, the Belcadiz are probably already out of the Known World, since they do not appear in the Goblinoid invasions of that time. Since then, they might have lived in contact with the Thyatians, who had been moved to Davania by the Nithians. Bye, GP -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:04:01 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Elves in 3e --- Matteo Barnabe' wrote: > to comment on them :) > > Very useful discussion, thank you! Thanks :) > ALFHEIM ELVES: > Favored Class: Sorcerer AND Ranger With the "Ilsundal" subrace(which includes the Alfheim elves), I considered this, but decided that I wanted to keep one of the subraces more or less identical to the one in the PHB). > EREWAN ELVES > Favored Class: Wizard AND Ranger > (I have chosen wizard instead of sorcerer here > because of the > Glantrian background; IMC sorceres are quite > despised in Glantri: > according to the law of Principalities only wizards > can graduate > at the Great School of Magic and become part of the > aristocracy) We were discussing the role of Sorcery over at the MMB, where I also suggested something similar to what you are saying, but when trying to combine that with an other idea, which was that Alphatians were natural Sorcerers, we decided that Sorcerers were also to be accepted in Glantri. Again, I decided to keep the Erewan/Ellerovyn Clan as the same subrace as the Alfheim Clans (Ilsundal elves) given their similar origin. Also, I wanted to keep the number of subraces relatively low, which was also my reasoning for sticking the Vyalia, Wendar, Trueflower and Verdier into the Wood Elf category. > BELCADIZ ELVES I like the inclusion of the Main Gauche feat. I think I will include this in my own writeup. The Mystara 3e site has another conversion of this weapon, providing a +2 bonus to disarm actions, which I like. Also, 3.5 has the two-weapon defence feat, which is appropriate for Belcadize characters (though they won't get it for free). > However, I think that Shiye-Lawr Elves should have > Rogue and Sorcerer > as favored class, Shadowelves Cleric and Wizard, and > Graakhalia Elves > (I do not remember the exact name, I mean the Elves > that live with gnolls > under the Plain of Fire) could be excellent > Barbarians and Sorceres. I think I will keep my version with only one favored class, but I agree keeping the Shyie (not just Lawr, but all of them) be rogues (fitting with the Eyrindyl influence). The Graakhalia Elves are the Sheyalla Clan, right? I gotta read up for the details on those. Barbaric elves sounds like fun, though, I might make the Sheyalla be Barbarians or Rangers. The Vulcania elves are another candidate for the Barbarian Class, as are the Icewale Elves of the Hollow World. Havard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:12:17 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Twisted Elves You have to love twists. I have always been fond of the idea that goblins have always been some form of twisted elf, like in LotR. We know there are no Hyborean branches of goblins and hobgoblins, so we could assume that in 2400 BC when the Beastmen started to breed true, from the Hyborean area, that goblins and hobgoblins were not there. One possibility we can try is that in the GRoF, one more clan was near Blackmoor, the Nadriendel. This clan did not opt to go underground and caught the full brunt of the radioactive magic that was released. This force twisted and changed the elves into a barbarous and twisted elf that in later years comes fully formed as the goblin races. Now enter Moorcroft’s ancestors. Moorcroftian need for plaguing elven culture stems from breeding programs of goblins, men and the twisted souls of elves (straight out of the roots of twisted trees!). The hobgoblin is created (like Suraman’s Uruk-Hai). Now for the twist… Rafael knows the GRoF twi sted these poor elves, as it was the same magical energy that released unto them, that made him immortal. In fact it may be a side affect to his ascension, like the dragons when they become immortal. Rafael sets in motion plans to breed them back, by having his Shamans leave deformed Shadow Elves to be picked up by the denizens of Oenkmar. He furthers this plot by having high level Shadow Elves immigrate back to Oenkmar to train and further his plots with these newer breed of half elf/goblins. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:23:45 -0700 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Belcadiz two times in Glantri? Chris Cherrington wrote: The Schattenalfen did meet with the Shadow Elves. Atziann (as an immortal) turned many followers of Rafael and especially those of the Schattenalfen clan to his way. They settled in Aengmar before being punished and sent through caves to find the Hollow World. Icevales elves settled in a snowy mountainous region of the Hollow World by finding it, they were never brought there; but the place reminded them of the Glantrian Alps that they had left behind. Was not the blighted area of the Shadow Elves’ realm were a missing 5th clan once settled? This is the area of the Crown of Corruption. The Desert of Lost Souls was settled by an offshoot of the Porador clan, according to Gaz13, which has since been destroyed (by the evil magicks in that region caused by the Crown of Corruption). It seems strange to me that the Icevale elves never encountered the shadowelves (or seemingly did not, given that they went even deeper than the schattenalfen). I imagine the Truedyl probably passed through caverns above the SE territories (or, as those of us who have been working on developing the Shadowdeep like to call it, Gwaithallin). I guess the Belcadiz could have done the same. Or maybe the Icevale elves went north and then down, and bypassed Gwaithallin completely. And the Belcadiz could have gone in a more southeasterly route, thus emerging in Traladara or Nithia or the lands that would become Thyatis. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:35:31 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Belcadiz two times in Glantri? ============================================================ From: Andrew Theisen It seems strange to me that the Icevale elves never encountered the shadowelves (or seemingly did not, given that they went even deeper than the schattenalfen). ============================================================ The Icevale elves, Truedyl, Schattenalfen and Atziann's clan were all separated and lost in the caves. The Truedyl probably came up from where the Sump in nowadays’ Alfheim is located, or in the Malphegi where the Sump empties out. The Icevale seemingly found a direct path, as they seem to be little concerned with the travels. Atziann’s clan seems to be the most tragic. He was a king, so his clan was probably rather large, and possibly he was king for all the clans in the Blackmoor colony (no other elf has that distinction, not even Ilsundal). There is a tunnel from the Broken Lands that extends from Trollhatten to Vestland, which would be one of the longest tunnel systems in the world. Remnants that one day would become the Belcadiz, could have surfaced a the Sump or Malphegi, or got lost along the Troll route (before there were any), or even stumbled onto Barimoor’s ancient system and lived near the borders of the Nithian/Doulakki city-states. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:05:08 +0100 From: jason o'brien Subject: Re: Twisted Elves IMC a character who was questing for Immortality actually created a new Elven homeland out of the Gosluk tribelands, creating a new mush bigger forest from the one at the north of the baronies of Saragon and Guadalante, and the couple of smaller woodlands by the rivers, right up to the escarpment. The difference was that it was an Elven homeland that included their long lost cousins, the Goblins. The Gosluk tribesmen were equal citizens, and any goblins captured from the invading forces of the Master, after a brief internment until the end of that war were offered a choice of returning to the Master or becoming full citizens of this integrated society. The Differnce is IMC the Goblins were created by some long forgotten evil wizard, who used long lost arcane rituals to create an evil servant race from captured Elves. Mortus. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 11 Jul 2004 to 12 Jul 2004 (#2004-144) ****************************************************************