Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 9 Sep 2004 to 10 Sep 2004 (#2004-190) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 11/09/2004, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 17 messages totalling 1497 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Diffusion and Development of Martial Arts in Mystara 2. Darokin: its population, language and origins (6) 3. Hurricane Ivan (2) 4. Darokinian language (7) 5. Merchants (was Darokin Language) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:00:14 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Diffusion and Development of Martial Arts in Mystara Steven Carter wrote: > Pray tell, what is this reference? > >> Shar-Pei Polearm Fighting Ochalea DM237 Hi, this reference is to the article ``Lupins of Mystara'' by Bruce Heard, on issue 237 of Dragon Magazine. A Lupin breed is mentioned there, the Shar-Pei, along with their special skill with polearms, which I would consider a sort of martial arts. Bye, GP -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:27:43 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Darokin: its population, language and origins On the italian Mystara forum, we were discussing Darokin and Darokinian language and noticed the Darokinian/Thyatian language issue. We also tried to figure out a linguistic and ethnic picture of the land, because we noticed that Darokinian names have the most varied origins - Celtic, English, Greek, Latin, Italian, Arab... For some of these, the origin is clear - the Ylari influence, for instance. For others, it is much less. I am especially interested in this because I am still working on my gargantuan Ethnography Project. I have read bits of Geoff's and Aaron's attempt at writing a Darokinian timeline, and I would add my 2 cents and try to solve the problem of the Darokinian language. This would be my idea: 1) The first humans to enter Darokin are Dunharians (the non-canonic ancestors of the non-canonic Dunael; in my Ethnography, Duharians are proto-Celts; they then split in two, one group, the Carnuilh (created by Chris Cherrington) move westwards toward the Midlands, and become the barbarians ancestors of the Robrennians, the other eastwards toward Dawn and become the Dunael); an example could be the city of Favaro; I have taken a look at some celtic ethymology, and composed the word "Fiachrahreaw", that means "bloody raven". It wouldn't take much time to write some sort of legend about its origin. Then, later, the name would be changed, becoming in the end "Favaro". 2) the second group would be Antalians, moving south through Ethengar (maybe because they are escaping from Akkila Khan's and/or Loark's hordes). As Antalians are like ancient germans, we could assume that they are proto-anglosaxons; an example of city where they live could be Akesoli ("Aksel-ly"="Axel's refuge"); another Darokin. If we assume that this antalian tribe called itself the "Durran-kin"="the race that is brave" (from anglosaxon: durran = to face dangers bravely; cyn = race, family, clan), then with the change of pronunciation, like those that led to modern English, "durran" (originally pronounced d-you-rr-a-n) became "daran", and their city "Darankin". It's not unusal to have a phonetic change from "an" to "o", so we would have, lately, "Darokin". 3) In the east, Doulakki found Salonikos; in the south, Athenos 4) Later on, Ylari, Thyatian, Traldar, Dwarven, maybe Sindhi colonists will enter Darokin. The contact with Elves will also change the language, as well as the unification of the kingdom. 5) The Darokinian language changes heavily from one dialect to other, from west to east (we could even hypothize that there are two different languages or main dialects, one in the west, mainly of antalian/durhanian origin, one in the east, mainly of traldar/doulakki/thyatian origin). This second language is 60% or 70% compatible with Thyatian, so this is chosen, in 927, as the official darokinian language. What do you think about this idea? Ah, on a side note: Aaron, I don't think darokinian would be the common language. Darokin's cities have been for centuries merchants, but they had no political unity to impose their language; as an example, Italian would have been the main tongue in Europe during 1300-1500, but it wasn't so. And think about this: Thyatis has occupied directly at least Ierendi, Karameikos, Ylaruam, and have been allies for centuries with Ostland, and probably they have been the bigger trading partner with the Darokinian kingdoms and city-states - and I rather doubt Thyatians would start speaking another language to trade with them, it's like believing that Englishmen and Americans would try to learn german, spanish or italian for doing business with Europeans...considering that Thyatis has so many ties, it would be like saying that today, an Italian would prefer to learn German than English to trade with most people as possible, considering that the US are so influent in trade anc economics. However, in the future, with Darokinian unity it's not impossible that the Darokinian-Thyatian becomes more important and more used than Imperial-Thyatian. Giulio ___________________________________ Scopri Mister Yahoo! - il fantatorneo sul calcio di Yahoo! Sport http://it.seriea.fantasysports.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:37:04 -0500 From: Aaron Nowack Subject: Re: Darokin: its population, language and origins la Volpe wrote: > I am especially interested in this because I am still > working on my gargantuan Ethnography Project. > > I have read bits of Geoff's and Aaron's attempt at > writing a Darokinian timeline, and I would add my 2 > cents and try to solve the problem of the Darokinian > language. > > This would be my idea: > > 1) The first humans to enter Darokin are Dunharians > (the non-canonic ancestors of the non-canonic Dunael; > in my Ethnography, Duharians are proto-Celts; they > then split in two, one group, the Carnuilh (created by > Chris Cherrington) move westwards toward the Midlands, > and become the barbarians ancestors of the > Robrennians, the other eastwards toward Dawn and > become the Dunael); an example could be the city of > Favaro; I have taken a look at some celtic ethymology, > and composed the word "Fiachrahreaw", that means > "bloody raven". It wouldn't take much time to write > some sort of legend about its origin. Then, later, the > name would be changed, becoming in the end "Favaro". The first humans that inhabit Darokin are, by canon, various Traldar clans ~1500 BC. Well accepted non-canon has these being the Doulakki. This civilization is well into decline by 1000 BC, when gnolls drive most of the humans of the Darokinian region into orc territory, where few survive. I'm having trouble locating the exact location of the source, but my notes indicate that canon has Favaro founded by the Eastwind Clan around 600 BC. It's possible that here I've gotten my additions mixed up with canon, but I do see clear indications that Favaro is approximately 1500 years old (500 BC), and was established after the founding of Alfheim (800 BC), since "the elves of Alfheim have always supported the humans of Favaro" (Gaz11 DMG, p. 38). > 2) the second group would be Antalians, moving south > through Ethengar (maybe because they are escaping from > Akkila Khan's and/or Loark's hordes). As Antalians are > like ancient germans, we could assume that they are > proto-anglosaxons; an example of city where they live > could be Akesoli ("Aksel-ly"="Axel's refuge"); another > Darokin. If we assume that this antalian tribe called > itself the "Durran-kin"="the race that is brave" (from > anglosaxon: durran = to face dangers bravely; cyn = > race, family, clan), then with the change of > pronunciation, like those that led to modern English, > "durran" (originally pronounced d-you-rr-a-n) became > "daran", and their city "Darankin". It's not unusal to > have a phonetic change from "an" to "o", so we would > have, lately, "Darokin". This one I am much more certain on. Canon is very clear that the name Darokin comes from Ansel Darokin of the Eastwind Clan founding the Kingdom in 21 AC. Akesoli must be a relatively recent city: as late as 200 BC the area is orcish-controlled, and it likely remains so for several more centuries. > 3) In the east, Doulakki found Salonikos; in the > south, Athenos Salonikos is agreed to have been established in 1500 BC. There are ancient Doulakki city-states from the same time period as far west as Athenos and Akorros, these however are unlikely to survive the gnollish/orcish conquests that follow. My timeline has modern Athenos founded by colonists from Salonikos and Cynidecia, as well as Doulakki fleeing the Thyatian invasion of modern Thyatis in 500 BC. Modern Akorros is younger, established in the ACs as the Kingdom of Darokin expands into the Amsorak, and named after the ancient Doulakki city that once stood on the site. > 4) Later on, Ylari, Thyatian, Traldar, Dwarven, maybe > Sindhi colonists will enter Darokin. The contact with > Elves will also change the language, as well as the > unification of the kingdom. Most of these happen in the ACs, by which point there already is a distinct Darokinian nation, and almost certainly culture and language. Gaz11 has the main immigration happening from 725-925, and lists dwarves from Glantri, refugees fleeing the Ylaruam on its independence (only likely source of native Thyatian-speakers), and Traladarans fleeing Thyatian invasion as the major groups. > 5) The Darokinian language changes heavily from one > dialect to other, from west to east (we could even > hypothize that there are two different languages or > main dialects, one in the west, mainly of > antalian/durhanian origin, one in the east, mainly of > traldar/doulakki/thyatian origin). This second > language is 60% or 70% compatible with Thyatian, so > this is chosen, in 927, as the official darokinian > language. I find this setup unlikely. a) In the east, the language (assuming there remains a separate language after centuries of rule by the Kingdom of Darokin) is likely descended from Traldar by way of Doulakki. Thyatian, on the other hand, if I recall correctly is also descended from Traldar, but by way of Millenian. The differences should be at least be comparable to the differences between any two Romance languages, if not more due to the two branches developing in isolation for over a thousand years. Certainly enough that it would be incorrect to call one a dialect of the other. b) The vast majority of the population and wealth of the Republic is in the Streel Valley to the west, as is the preponderance of the political power (only one Chancellor out of the five comes from Selenica). It is vastly more likely that whatever language is spoken there would be chosen as the official one than the language spoken by the comparatively tiny population in the east. Here's the language setup I'm envisioning for use in my timeline: Doulakki: Spoken mainly in Salonikos, but also in Athenos for the first few centuries of its existence. The language becomes mainly dead within a hundred years of the Darokinian conquest of Salonikos, particularly since the Doulakki had already largely been Darokinianized by that point, for reasons that will be explored in the timeline. Roughly 5-10% compatible with modern Darokinian thanks to loan words. Old Eraedan: The language spoken by the various clans that would later found the Kingdom of Darokin, and also by Athenos later in its existence after extensive immigration to the city. A few proto-states speak distinct dialects, the most widespread being Molharraner. Roughly 20-30% compatible with modern Darokinian. Royal, or High, Eraedan: The result of the codification of Old Eraedan in the First or Second Century AC. The language of the nobility and scholarship for much of the Kingdom's existence, but mostly a dead language by the time the Kingdom dissolves. Has a high number of Elven loan words, but still roughly 50% compatible with modern Darokinian. Low Eraedan: A collection of dialects differing from Royal Eraedan spoken during the Kingdom, and the main language during that period. Most dialects are upwards of 70% to 80% compatible with modern Darokinian. A few are still spoken today in particularly backwater parts of the Republic. Darokinian: A "lowest common denominator" union of the most prominent forms of Low Eraedan, formalized by a scholar in the early-to-mid 700s AC, and giving particular weight to the Darokin City dialect. It rapidly becomes the language of commerce, and by 850 AC most inhabitants of the Darokin region speak something recognizable as it, though perhaps with the occasional unusual word leftover from their region's dialect of Low Eraedan. > Ah, on a side note: Aaron, I don't think darokinian > would be the common language. Darokin's cities have > been for centuries merchants, but they had no > political unity to impose their language; as an > example, Italian would have been the main tongue in > Europe during 1300-1500, but it wasn't so. Not sure it is a valid comparison - the Known World lacks any equivalent to Latin, which was the closest thing to "Common" in that period, IIRC. > And think > about this: Thyatis has occupied directly at least > Ierendi, Karameikos, Ylaruam, and have been allies for > centuries with Ostland, and probably they have been > the bigger trading partner with the Darokinian > kingdoms and city-states - and I rather doubt > Thyatians would start speaking another language to > trade with them, it's like believing that Englishmen > and Americans would try to learn german, spanish or > italian for doing business with > Europeans Perhaps. Darokinian merchants who did business in Thyatian would certainly seek to learn the language - just like they would learn Flaemish, or Traladaran, or Sindhi, or Atruaghin, or what have you, if that was where they primarily traded. > ...considering that Thyatis has so many ties, > it would be like saying that today, an Italian would > prefer to learn German than English to trade with most > people as possible, considering that the US are so > influent in trade anc economics. The thing is, in modern Mystara, and for probably a century of two in the past, the two major trading powers are Minrothad and Darokin, and I believe Darokin to probably be the larger of the two, since it is described as essentially the financial center of the Known World - at least economically speaking, a better analogue to the modern US than Thyatis. Thyatis is not a trading power - it is an imperial, military power. Not to say that there aren't Thyatian merchants, but there are probably more Darokinian merchants, and the Darokinians range wider in their trading - any given international business deal is probably more likely to involve a Darokinian than a Thyatian. -- Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.mimiru.net/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 23:54:53 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Darokin: its population, language and origins --- Aaron Nowack wrote: > Thyatis is not a trading power - it is an imperial, > military power. Not > to say that there aren't Thyatian merchants, but > there are probably more > Darokinian merchants, and the Darokinians range > wider in their trading - > any given international business deal is probably > more likely to involve > a Darokinian than a Thyatian. Although it was never explicitly written, I think the Mystara setting implies that Thyatis has a dominating effect on the Known World, even if it is not the main economic center. Perhaps Daronkin/Minrothad could be compared with historical Britain/Holland, whereas Thyatis would be a mix of historical France and Germany. (okay very rough here). Whereas Darokin and Minrothad have developed into major economical powers, Thyatis is still the center of the world, both militarily and culturally. A good way to describe Thyatis is as the Known World's hegemonial power. Its relationship with the Known World countries is in many was like the relationship between the US and Western Europe during the Cold War, or between Athens and other Greek City states. The other countries give their allegiance to Thyatis not because they are being forced to, but willingly. The reason for this is linked to the thyatis-lead revolt against Alphatia. Alphatia at one point controlled the entire known world, and Thyatis became the world's prtector against the threat of Alphatian domination. This was the situation for 1000 years. That is the reason why the Common Tongue of the Known World is Thyatian. IMC, Darokin may have its own language, but it is hardly being used anymore. sort of like Gaelic in modern day Ireland for instance. Ofcourse, with Alphatia gone and Thyatis slowly losing its power, this may all change. If that is the way the development goes in your campaign. Just my thoughts on the matter. Havard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 20:24:08 -0400 From: Christopher M Cherrington Subject: Hurricane Ivan I just got my electric and phone reconnected today, thanks to hurricane Frances. No break for the weary, Ivan is coming up hard and fast and following Charlie's trail. My family lived for a week with no electric, no air conditioning, no phone, and no cellular. What was worse is that with no electric for the city, no pumps for the sewage, so we had to live in 94 degrees Fahrenheit with raw sewage bubbling up in the streets. 90% of the gas stations are closed due to no fuel, and I don't have enough gas to run away from Ivan. We drove 60 miles to find ice to keep our precious food cold, only to wait in line for 2 hours to get 3 bags of ice. I am moving out of Florida, ASAP. I found a job out west, just finished my first interview by flying into Las Vegas overnight and back. The trip was worth it, as it gave me a chance to re-experience air conditioning and hot showers. Sorry for the OT posts, but I needed to vent. 3 major storms has really tasked my family strength. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:03:20 -0700 From: The Stalker Subject: Re: Darokinian language On Thu, 9 Sep 2004 20:16:08 -0500, Aaron Nowack wrote: > The Stalker wrote: >> There is indeed canon material that establishes Darokinian as a dialect of >> Thyatian. >> >> It is from the Karameikos: Kingdom of Adventure boxed set, where you'll >> find the following on p. 102 of the Explorer's Guide, where the short >> description of Darokin in the "Beyond the Borders" chapter says: >> >> "Language: The common langauge is Thyatian, as it is in Karameikos, >> although the natives refer to their dialect as Darokinian." > > K:KoA is somewhat dubious as a source, Stalker... isn't that the one > where no characters aged between 1000 AC and 1013 AC? ;) > I don't think so. Not all the characters have become more experienced (though a good deal of them have), but they've certainly become older. K:KoA is often criticized, but I never understand why. Sure, the cd and the shoddy AD&D beginner setup for the adventure book was terrible (given that Mystaran players already played a game more complex than core AD&D when you consider all the additional rules in the various gazetteers), but I've always found that the material in the Explorer's Guide was excellent, and that Jeff Grubb and Aaron Allston did good work there. Besides, K:KoA is set in AC 1012, so maybe you're thinking of the Glantri: Kingdom of Magic, which I believe was set for AC 1013, and which indeed had many oversights (like forgetting the changes to the Nucleus of the Spheres at the end of WotI, which was nothing less than inexcusable!). That said, it's still canon, and that's what Giulio asked for. Sure, you can discount it if you prefer, but it's still a more recently published canon product than the gazetteers, so either way the Almanac team was stuck ith it, whether they liked it or not. And obviously, if we get to discount canon references we don't like, then we will all have large lists of things we'd like to see discarded from official canon. I, for example, would like to remove the reference to the WWM removing all magic used to make people younger than they are due to the reasons I stated recently. But while I do discount it IMC, I'm still stuck with it in canon, so if I work with the period on the MA, I'll have to either deal with it or find a way to ignore it - I cannot contradict it, since it's stated a fact right there in a canon source. >> And yes, I used to have Darokinian as a separate language itself until I >> read that. It somehow makes sense, though, since Thyatian is widespread >> across the Old World region as a language, and as Darokin is >> very 'international' due to its mercantile interests, it would pick up on >> it. There might have been a Darokinian language, but Thyatis has been a >> powerful empire for more than a thousand years - that's more than enough >> time for the Thyatian to become the dominant language in Darokin. > > However, it doesn't make sense. Yes, Thyatis as a mighty empire, but > with the exception of Ylaruam and the more recent, brief exception of > Karameikos, its imperial ambitions have been focused east and south - > away from the Known/Old World. The other Known World countries are not > former colonies or conquests of Thyatis. There's little reason for its > language to have spread extensively enough to have become the native > tongue anywhere else. > The way I see it, Thyatis is to the old world what the Roman Empire was to medieval Europe, and so the Thyatian language would be to the region what Latin was to Europe. That means the language will be widespread because its the only language everybody can reasonably assumed to know. No, the other nations are not colonies of Thyatis, but they do deal with the empire on a regular basis, and there have been a lot of settlers from Thyatis over the years. > Darokin is 'international', yes, so certainly Darokinian merchants would > speak Thyatian as a second language, but I find it questionable that the > Darokinian population as a whole wouldn't speak a descendant of the > languages spoken by the proto-Darokinian clans of the region. > > The only thing that might make sense is if several divergent dialects > were developed in the centuries between the fall of the Kingdom of > Darokin and the Great Merger, and Thyatian was chosen as a neutral > choice for the official language of the Republic. It seems like an > awfully short time for really divergent dialects to emerge though, and > I'd say that picking "Darokin City Darokinian" for the official language > would be more likely. > Well, Darokin is basically (and historically) made up mostly of rather independent city-states that have found together over the years to some degree (Selenica still has some claims of independence, for example). Why would all those city-states speak the same language? Given the competion between them, there seems to be little reason they should, especially since most of the powers in the nation are settlers from other nations. If they all spoke different languages, then it makes a lot of sense that Thyatian would become the accepted 'common' language over the years, since they would all speak it when interacting with the Thyatians anyway. Heck, Thyatian is even the common tongue in Glantri according the PWA1. >> Gamewise it also solves a lot of problems, since characters from the more >> progressive nations and those that are less hostile to foreigners will >> rarely be unable to understand each other. > > Unrealistic, though. I'd rather treat Thyatian as the equivalent to > English in the modern, real world - might not be the native language, > but it generally isn't difficult to find someone who speaks it. > > Actually, as a side note: as I recall it is generally accepted that the > "Common" for the Known/Old World is Thyatian. However, given the fact > that the largest trading power in the region is Darokin, and has been > for centuries, it actually seems more likely to me that Darokinian would > be the "Common." Thoughts? > I don't agree that Darokin is necessarily the largest trading power in the region. They are certainly important, but the Minrothad Guilds are also a powerful mercantile nation, and no empire as large and powerful as Thyatis could maintain its position for a millennium if they weren't good traders. Sure, the Thyatians like to conquer, but they need food for the troops and a healthy economy to afford their wars and conquests, and that can be sustained only through skillful trading, so there is no question that Thyatian traders form an important power in the known world. I certainly wouldn't put them below Darokin or Minrothad. Sure, those nations may have a better tradition for merchants, but Thyatis can easily outdo them by sheer numbers. Just take the population figures from PWA1, for example. Minrothad has a total population of 135,000, while Darokin has 1,250,000 humans and various demihumans (which suggests that Darokin is the more powerful mercantile nation of the two, with Minrothad exploiting the niche of sea trade that Darokin finds it hard or redundant to address). How great a percentage of these people will be merchants? Now look at Thyatis which dwarfs even Darokin with 3,001,000 inhabitants. Even if we assume that the concentration of traders in Thyatis is less than half that in Darokin, Thyatis will still have more merchants than Darokin. Now, I don't think Thyatis can keep with up the experience and expertise of Darokin in this area (especially with the DDC at work), but I do think Thyatis has more merchants and have access to a much greater market by virtue of ships and how their empire spreads across the world, which grants access to many different trading partners and potential goods. - The Stalker ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 21:58:34 -0400 From: Christopher M Cherrington Subject: Merchants (was Darokin Language) Speaking by my experience in designing my PBEM for trading, Thyatis is a much larger trading empire than Darokin. But, Thyatis merchants are under the control of the senators. They are less organized than the DDC, and many senators unknowingly are working for the DDC when it comes to trading. Hiring representatives of their interests that the DDC readily supplies. Now on sea borne mercantile trading, the Ylari have a bigger market than the Minrothad does, but again, it is not as organized. Many Ylari merchants actually work for Darokin, Thyatis and Minrothad. Minrothad and Savage Coast Merchants are relatively new, and are at the same mercantile age. Darokin does have a stake in the ocean going market, Minrothad does not have a monopoly by far (otherwise they would not be able to supplement their coffers by piracy). Ylari's biggest competitor is Ostland, but mainly because Ostland is paid by Thyatis to pirate the northern waters. The Ylari's neutrality is what made them the far reaching traders going east of the Known World; and are the biggest smugglers of Zonga (their religious edicts have kept them from using the substance). In fact, because of the far reaching efforts of mercantile Ylari, you may see some dramatic changes in the Almanac when some converts start making pilgrimages to the Holy Land. (Quick sneak peek of the Almanac entrees for Ylari.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 21:18:17 -0500 From: Aaron Nowack Subject: Re: Darokinian language The Stalker wrote: >> K:KoA is somewhat dubious as a source, Stalker... isn't that the one >> where no characters aged between 1000 AC and 1013 AC? ;) >> > > I don't think so. Not all the characters have become more experienced > (though a good deal of them have), but they've certainly become older. Hmm... I could have sworn there was some issue with ages of characters not being updated to account for the time difference. It's been a long time since I've looked at the books, so I could be wrong. > That said, it's still canon, and that's what Giulio asked for. Sure, you > can discount it if you prefer, but it's still a more recently published > canon product than the gazetteers, so either way the Almanac team was > stuck ith it, whether they liked it or not. And obviously, if we get to > discount canon references we don't like, then we will all have large lists > of things we'd like to see discarded from official canon. There's a difference between a substantial bit of canon and a throwaway line about something a given product isn't actually about, that contradicts previous canon. (Warriors of Heaven, anyone?) > The way I see it, Thyatis is to the old world what the Roman Empire was to > medieval Europe, and so the Thyatian language would be to the region what > Latin was to Europe. That means the language will be widespread because > its the only language everybody can reasonably assumed to know. Except for the whole fact that it _isn't_ like Latin and Thyatis _isn't_ in a position similar to the Roman Empire, which is kind of my whole point. ;) Latin was a semi-universal language precisely because it was the language of the Empire that ruled most of Europe, the ancestor of the languages spoken over a good portion of Europe, and preserved as the language of Europe's single religion. None of that applies to Thyatian. > No, the > other nations are not colonies of Thyatis, but they do deal with the > empire on a regular basis, and there have been a lot of settlers from > Thyatis over the years. Thyatians are not listed as one of the major groups of immigrants into Darokin in Gaz11. Even so, Darokin would have had to be very sparsely populated indeed for Thyatian immigration to be so large in proportion that a dialect of Thyatian became the native tongue of most of the people, and in any case Gaz11 strongly suggests that immigrants were absorbed into Darokinian culture, rather than replacing it wholesale. > Well, Darokin is basically (and historically) made up mostly of rather > independent city-states that have found together over the years to some > degree (Selenica still has some claims of independence, for example). Why > would all those city-states speak the same language? Because they were all part of one nation for roughly seven hundred years, during which time period most of the cities involved were actually founded? Selenica is a special case - if anywhere in Darokin speaks a separate language, it would be there. OTOH, Gaz11 says nothing to indicate this, and "Selenican" is more likely to be a variant of Ylari or Traladaran than of Thyatian. > Heck, > Thyatian is even the common tongue in Glantri according the PWA1. However, unless my Mystara-fu fails me, Glantri _did_ experience a substantial amount of Thyatian immigration (and IIRC the founder of the nation was a Thyatian). Not at all the case in Darokin - which, if the original post in the thread is to be believed, is listed in PWA1 as speaking Darokinian (my books are in another state, so I can't check myself). To briefly sum up my argument (setting aside the whole Common language thing, which was mostly just an idle thought): 1) The original people of Darokin are not closely ethnically related to the Thyatians, and were established as a distinct culture while Thyatis was just a rebellious Alphatian colony. Presumably, they must speak some language - which cannot be more than distantly related to Thyatian through common Traldar ancestry over a thousand years previous. 2) Thyatis never conquers Darokin, nor do Thyatian settlers displace the original Darokinian inhabitants. Therefore, 3) There is no cause for the inhabitants of the Darokin to stop speaking their original language(s) or descendants thereof. Therefore, 4) The native language(s) spoken in the Republic of Darokin, whatever it/they might be, is/are highly unlikely to be a dialect of Thyatian. -- Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.mimiru.net/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 19:05:08 -0700 From: The Stalker Subject: Re: Hurricane Ivan On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 20:24:08 -0400, Christopher M Cherrington wrote: > I just got my electric and phone reconnected today, thanks to hurricane > Frances. No break for the weary, Ivan is coming up hard and fast and > following Charlie's trail. My family lived for a week with no electric, no > air conditioning, no phone, and no cellular. What was worse is that with no > electric for the city, no pumps for the sewage, so we had to live in 94 > degrees Fahrenheit with raw sewage bubbling up in the streets. 90% of the > gas stations are closed due to no fuel, and I don't have enough gas to run > away from Ivan. We drove 60 miles to find ice to keep our precious food > cold, only to wait in line for 2 hours to get 3 bags of ice. I am moving > out of Florida, ASAP. I found a job out west, just finished my first > interview by flying into Las Vegas overnight and back. The trip was worth > it, as it gave me a chance to re-experience air conditioning and hot > showers. Yeah, the bad weather in your part of the world seems to be really merciless recently. It's too bad we don't really have anyone to blame for it (unless we count the meteorologists or the politicians, I guess, but then that's reaching...). Sounds really crappy. You have my sympathies for whatever that's worth :( > Sorry for the OT posts, but I needed to vent. 3 major storms has really > tasked my family strength. > Given the rotten events you've obviously been through, I really can't blame you for wanting to get it off your shoulder, nor can I imagine anyone else blaming you for it either. I guess I'm really lucky to live in a country with practically no natural disasters... - The Stalker ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 19:21:57 -0700 From: The Stalker Subject: Re: Darokin: its population, language and origins On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 23:54:53 +0200, =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= wrote: (snip) > > A good way to describe Thyatis is as the Known World's > hegemonial power. Its relationship with the Known > World countries is in many was like the relationship > between the US and Western Europe during the Cold War, > or between Athens and other Greek City states. The > other countries give their allegiance to Thyatis not > because they are being forced to, but willingly. > > The reason for this is linked to the thyatis-lead > revolt against Alphatia. Alphatia at one point > controlled the entire known world, and Thyatis became > the world's prtector against the threat of Alphatian > domination. > Huh? When did Alphatia ever control the entire known world? I know that Alphatia once controlled pre-empire Thyatis (meaning the mainland) and has can control of parts of Ylaruam, but apart from that there is only Halzumthram's very brief annexation of later Glantri, which failed horribly almost immediately. Besides, Alphatia didn't even seem that interested in the region in those days and was only really attracked to conquer the Thyatians because they were preying on their trade-ships (around BC 190). Before that time Nithia had long been far too strong a power for the growing Alphatia to challenge (though Mystaran history obviously will not remember that due to the Spell of Oblivion created by the Immortals upon Nithia's fall). I dare say Thyatis appointed itself the shield against Alphatia more than the other nations begged it to be, and I don't think they made any allegiance with Thyatis on the matter. After all, why would they bother? - Thyatis was clearly going to fight any Alphatian invasion in any event, since such an invasion would inevitably become a threat to Thyatis immediately, and the other nations could easily support Thyatis on a case- by-case basis if the need ever arose. Most struggles between the empires have been fought on the Isle of Dawn, in Ylaruam, in Norwold, or on their own home soil, so there has been little reason for the others to get involved. (snip rest) - The Stalker ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:36:47 -0400 From: Christopher M Cherrington Subject: Re: Darokin: its population, language and origins I actually like these ideas. Excellent... -----Original Message----- From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of la Volpe Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 6:28 AM To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: [MYSTARA] Darokin: its population, language and origins On the italian Mystara forum, we were discussing Darokin and Darokinian language and noticed the Darokinian/Thyatian language issue. We also tried to figure out a linguistic and ethnic picture of the land, because we noticed that Darokinian names have the most varied origins - Celtic, English, Greek, Latin, Italian, Arab... For some of these, the origin is clear - the Ylari influence, for instance. For others, it is much less. I am especially interested in this because I am still working on my gargantuan Ethnography Project. I have read bits of Geoff's and Aaron's attempt at writing a Darokinian timeline, and I would add my 2 cents and try to solve the problem of the Darokinian language. This would be my idea: 1) The first humans to enter Darokin are Dunharians (the non-canonic ancestors of the non-canonic Dunael; in my Ethnography, Duharians are proto-Celts; they then split in two, one group, the Carnuilh (created by Chris Cherrington) move westwards toward the Midlands, and become the barbarians ancestors of the Robrennians, the other eastwards toward Dawn and become the Dunael); an example could be the city of Favaro; I have taken a look at some celtic ethymology, and composed the word "Fiachrahreaw", that means "bloody raven". It wouldn't take much time to write some sort of legend about its origin. Then, later, the name would be changed, becoming in the end "Favaro". 2) the second group would be Antalians, moving south through Ethengar (maybe because they are escaping from Akkila Khan's and/or Loark's hordes). As Antalians are like ancient germans, we could assume that they are proto-anglosaxons; an example of city where they live could be Akesoli ("Aksel-ly"="Axel's refuge"); another Darokin. If we assume that this antalian tribe called itself the "Durran-kin"="the race that is brave" (from anglosaxon: durran = to face dangers bravely; cyn = race, family, clan), then with the change of pronunciation, like those that led to modern English, "durran" (originally pronounced d-you-rr-a-n) became "daran", and their city "Darankin". It's not unusal to have a phonetic change from "an" to "o", so we would have, lately, "Darokin". 3) In the east, Doulakki found Salonikos; in the south, Athenos 4) Later on, Ylari, Thyatian, Traldar, Dwarven, maybe Sindhi colonists will enter Darokin. The contact with Elves will also change the language, as well as the unification of the kingdom. 5) The Darokinian language changes heavily from one dialect to other, from west to east (we could even hypothize that there are two different languages or main dialects, one in the west, mainly of antalian/durhanian origin, one in the east, mainly of traldar/doulakki/thyatian origin). This second language is 60% or 70% compatible with Thyatian, so this is chosen, in 927, as the official darokinian language. What do you think about this idea? Ah, on a side note: Aaron, I don't think darokinian would be the common language. Darokin's cities have been for centuries merchants, but they had no political unity to impose their language; as an example, Italian would have been the main tongue in Europe during 1300-1500, but it wasn't so. And think about this: Thyatis has occupied directly at least Ierendi, Karameikos, Ylaruam, and have been allies for centuries with Ostland, and probably they have been the bigger trading partner with the Darokinian kingdoms and city-states - and I rather doubt Thyatians would start speaking another language to trade with them, it's like believing that Englishmen and Americans would try to learn german, spanish or italian for doing business with Europeans...considering that Thyatis has so many ties, it would be like saying that today, an Italian would prefer to learn German than English to trade with most people as possible, considering that the US are so influent in trade anc economics. However, in the future, with Darokinian unity it's not impossible that the Darokinian-Thyatian becomes more important and more used than Imperial-Thyatian. Giulio ___________________________________ Scopri Mister Yahoo! - il fantatorneo sul calcio di Yahoo! Sport http://it.seriea.fantasysports.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:44:03 -0400 From: Christopher M Cherrington Subject: Re: Darokin: its population, language and origins > -----Original Message----- > From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On > Behalf Of Aaron Nowack > > I'm having trouble locating the exact location of the source, but my > notes indicate that canon has Favaro founded by the Eastwind Clan around > 600 BC. > I originally drew up the Carnuilh to be a name for Eastwind Clan, but I opted to let that stay to speculation. > > This one I am much more certain on. Canon is very clear that the name > Darokin comes from Ansel Darokin of the Eastwind Clan founding the > Kingdom in 21 AC. Akesoli must be a relatively recent city: as late as > 200 BC the area is orcish-controlled, and it likely remains so for > several more centuries. > So where did Ansel get a name like Darokin? And with the orcish controlled area, the orcs adopted many of the northern reaches themes after Akilla Khan died. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 20:00:20 -0700 From: The Stalker Subject: Re: Darokinian language On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 21:18:17 -0500, Aaron Nowack wrote: > The Stalker wrote: (snip) >> That said, it's still canon, and that's what Giulio asked for. Sure, you >> can discount it if you prefer, but it's still a more recently published >> canon product than the gazetteers, so either way the Almanac team was >> stuck ith it, whether they liked it or not. And obviously, if we get to >> discount canon references we don't like, then we will all have large lists >> of things we'd like to see discarded from official canon. > > There's a difference between a substantial bit of canon and a throwaway > line about something a given product isn't actually about, that > contradicts previous canon. (Warriors of Heaven, anyone?) > Agreed, but there is also a big difference between a core/general AD&D book like Warriors of Heaven (written for all AD&D settings - I believe it was actually a Planescape book fixing some of the wayward AD&D cosmology (like the Mystaran Immortals), only Planescape was more or less officially 'dead' at the time, and so the book was released under the guise of being more general AD&D material) and an AD&D book written specifically for the Mystara setting (like the K:KoA set). Besides, does K:KoA actually contradict previous canon in this case? That would only be true if there is previous canon material that clearly establishes Darokinian as an entirely separate language from Thyatian. Several sources (like the PWAs) do list the official language of Darokin as Darokinian, but that does not discount the possibility that Darokinian might simply be a dialect of Thyatian, such as K:KoA suggests. Now, I can see that you don't like this idea. Fair enough, but K:KoA still doesn't contradict previous canon taken in this context, does it? (snip) > > Except for the whole fact that it _isn't_ like Latin and Thyatis _isn't_ > in a position similar to the Roman Empire, which is kind of my whole > point. ;) > Well, we could probably argue that until we're blue in the face, but it is probably moot, since the frame of reference is doubtful at best and certainly open to interpretation. > Latin was a semi-universal language precisely because it was the > language of the Empire that ruled most of Europe, the ancestor of the > languages spoken over a good portion of Europe, and preserved as the > language of Europe's single religion. > > None of that applies to Thyatian. > Well, Latin certainly was spoken in countries outside the areas controlled by the Romans, so I'm not quite so certain about that... Still, the matter is such a minefield that I probably shouldn't have made the comparison in the first place. Mea culpa. >> No, the >> other nations are not colonies of Thyatis, but they do deal with the >> empire on a regular basis, and there have been a lot of settlers from >> Thyatis over the years. > > Thyatians are not listed as one of the major groups of immigrants into > Darokin in Gaz11. Even so, Darokin would have had to be very sparsely > populated indeed for Thyatian immigration to be so large in proportion > that a dialect of Thyatian became the native tongue of most of the > people, and in any case Gaz11 strongly suggests that immigrants were > absorbed into Darokinian culture, rather than replacing it wholesale. > True. Thyatian might have been chosen as the common tongue as a matter of compromise among the competing city-states at some point, though, even if the numbers of actual Thyatian settlers were low. Besides, this begs the question of which languages these people then spoke instead? If the settlers were that diverse, then they'd probably all speak very different languages. How did those evolve into a single and unique language spoken throughout the nation, and which was different to all other languages of the known world? >> Well, Darokin is basically (and historically) made up mostly of rather >> independent city-states that have found together over the years to some >> degree (Selenica still has some claims of independence, for example). Why >> would all those city-states speak the same language? > > Because they were all part of one nation for roughly seven hundred > years, during which time period most of the cities involved were > actually founded? > Yes, but there was still a lot of internal strife and tradition for independence. Language often becomes a primary issue in such cases, which could suggest the various regions of Darokin might have held on fiercely to their own preferred tongue while accepting none of those of the competitors. > Selenica is a special case - if anywhere in Darokin speaks a separate > language, it would be there. OTOH, Gaz11 says nothing to indicate this, > and "Selenican" is more likely to be a variant of Ylari or Traladaran > than of Thyatian. > >> Heck, >> Thyatian is even the common tongue in Glantri according the PWA1. > > However, unless my Mystara-fu fails me, Glantri _did_ experience a > substantial amount of Thyatian immigration (and IIRC the founder of the > nation was a Thyatian). Not at all the case in Darokin - which, if the > original post in the thread is to be believed, is listed in PWA1 as > speaking Darokinian (my books are in another state, so I can't check > myself). > Again, the fact that Darokinian is spoken in Darokin does not discount the possibility that it might be a dialect of Thyatian. > To briefly sum up my argument (setting aside the whole Common language > thing, which was mostly just an idle thought): > > 1) The original people of Darokin are not closely ethnically related to > the Thyatians, and were established as a distinct culture while Thyatis > was just a rebellious Alphatian colony. Presumably, they must speak > some language - which cannot be more than distantly related to Thyatian > through common Traldar ancestry over a thousand years previous. > With you so far. > 2) Thyatis never conquers Darokin, nor do Thyatian settlers displace the > original Darokinian inhabitants. > Correct in both cases. This does not discount the possibility of the language creeping into the society, however. Indeed, in a nation of merchants it will be spoken often, since the merchants must deal with the empire on their doorstep. If the various regions fiercely defend their own languages at the same time, the common foreign tongue will be spoken even more inside the nation, because it's the only one everyone knows. > Therefore, 3) There is no cause for the inhabitants of the Darokin to > stop speaking their original language(s) or descendants thereof. > Which still begs the question of which those languages were? > Therefore, 4) The native language(s) spoken in the Republic of Darokin, > whatever it/they might be, is/are highly unlikely to be a dialect of > Thyatian. > At its outset, yes, but Darokin is, as a nation, old enough to have been influenced substantially by foreign customs and traditions. In Darokin this is even more likely than in most other nations, because the merchants actively seek to conduct trade with foreigners. This will often bring them into contact with Thyatians or people with whom they can only communicate in Thyatian. If there is also no established central language for Darokin itself at the same time, it is entirely possible that the most common foreign tongue will generally be accepted throughout the nation if it is the only language everyone has in common. - The Stalker ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 23:31:15 -0400 From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: Darokinian language The other Known World countries are not > former colonies or conquests of Thyatis. There's little reason for its > language to have spread extensively enough to have become the native > tongue anywhere else. I don't think anyone has suggested that Thyatian is the *native* tongue of any other nation, but that it is the Common tongue, meaning a language common enough to be spoken by enough people so that communication can take place across cultures. So if PCs travel to Draokin, they will be able to speak Thyatian and be understood. Likewise, if Darokin PC's head to Thyatis. > Darokin is 'international', yes, so certainly Darokinian merchants would > speak Thyatian as a second language, This is what I'm talking about. but I find it questionable that the > Darokinian population as a whole wouldn't speak a descendant of the > languages spoken by the proto-Darokinian clans of the region. > > Gamewise it also solves a lot of problems, since characters from the more > > progressive nations and those that are less hostile to foreigners will > > rarely be unable to understand each other. It also helps in this regard. > Unrealistic, though. I'd rather treat Thyatian as the equivalent to > English in the modern, real world - might not be the native language, > but it generally isn't difficult to find someone who speaks it. IMO, this is the best RW example, and a good definiton for what "Common Tongue" actually implies. > Actually, as a side note: as I recall it is generally accepted that the > "Common" for the Known/Old World is Thyatian. However, given the fact > that the largest trading power in the region is Darokin, and has been > for centuries, it actually seems more likely to me that Darokinian would > be the "Common." Thoughts? I'd think the Thyatians would carry more overall clout and influence, having been established as an empire for 1000 years. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 23:45:54 -0500 From: Aaron Nowack Subject: Re: Darokinian language Dan Eustace wrote: > The other Known World countries are not >> former colonies or conquests of Thyatis. There's little reason for its >> language to have spread extensively enough to have become the native >> tongue anywhere else. > > I don't think anyone has suggested that Thyatian is the *native* tongue of > any other nation, but that it is the Common tongue, meaning a language > common enough to be spoken by enough people so that communication can take > place across cultures. Actually, the issue I'm debating up here and in most of that post _is_ whether or not Darokinian is a dialect of Thyatian (i.e., some form of Thyatian is the native tongue in Darokin). The "What is Common?" is another side thread, one for which I will graciously admit defeat. ;) -- Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.mimiru.net/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 00:59:21 -0400 From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: Darokinian language > Actually, the issue I'm debating up here and in most of that post _is_ > whether or not Darokinian is a dialect of Thyatian (i.e., some form of > Thyatian is the native tongue in Darokin). The "What is Common?" is > another side thread, one for which I will graciously admit defeat. ;) Well, I would agree with you here. Daro should be a seperate language. But, I can see how it could be otherwise in different campaigns. IMC I don't emphasize languages all that much. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 00:07:51 -0500 From: Aaron Nowack Subject: Re: Darokinian language The Stalker wrote: >> There's a difference between a substantial bit of canon and a throwaway >> line about something a given product isn't actually about, that >> contradicts previous canon. (Warriors of Heaven, anyone?) >> (snip) > Several sources > (like the PWAs) do list the official language of Darokin as Darokinian, > but that does not discount the possibility that Darokinian might simply be > a dialect of Thyatian, such as K:KoA suggests. Now, I can see that you > don't like this idea. Fair enough, but K:KoA still doesn't contradict > previous canon taken in this context, does it? I suppose contradict might be a a bit strong, since its never explicitly stated that Darokinian isn't. However, by that standard there's not many languages for which stating they're a dialect of Thyatian _would_ be a contradiction. After all, as I recall few of the PWA entries state "This language, by the way, is not a dialect of Thyatian." In fact, to simplify gameplay, I propose that all Mystaran languages, present, past, and future, are dialects of Thyatian. ;) >> Thyatians are not listed as one of the major groups of immigrants into >> Darokin in Gaz11. Even so, Darokin would have had to be very sparsely >> populated indeed for Thyatian immigration to be so large in proportion >> that a dialect of Thyatian became the native tongue of most of the >> people, and in any case Gaz11 strongly suggests that immigrants were >> absorbed into Darokinian culture, rather than replacing it wholesale. >> > True. Thyatian might have been chosen as the common tongue as a matter of > compromise among the competing city-states at some point, though, even if > the numbers of actual Thyatian settlers were low. I'm uncertain of this. My thought here is that the only time frame for this to take place would be the Great Merger. This would require either: a) The Kingdom of Darokin failed to spread its official language to any great extent. or b) In the two hundred years Darokin is divided, languages diverge to a great amount very rapidly. I don't find either of these to be very likely. Whichever the option, though, it still seems more reasonable that whatever language they picked would be one of the native tongues than Thyatian. (Particularly since one of the likely motivations for the Great Merger is fear of Thyatian conquest.) Even if they did pick Thyatian, it probably wouldn't have spread very far among the populace in general by 1000 AC - the vast majority of Darokinians would be still be speaking some other language. So for the official language of Darokin to be a Thyatian dialect, one also needs to decide that canon just decided to "not mention" that the vast majority of Darokinians speak something else (and not even the _same_ something else) as their native language. (Also, if they did pick Thyatian, why would they go to the trouble of artificially creating a dialect than just using Imperial Thyatian?) > Besides, this begs the > question of which languages these people then spoke instead? If the > settlers were that diverse, then they'd probably all speak very different > languages. How did those evolve into a single and unique language spoken > throughout the nation, and which was different to all other languages of > the known world? I think you might have your history somewhat confused here... The original settlers of Darokin are not terribly diverse, and likely spoke Doulakki and/or other closely related Traldar-related languages. The large waves of immigration come much later in history, after the fall of the Kingdom - and there certainly had to be _some_ languages spoken in Darokin prior to those waves, and I believe I've already established why they are unlikely to be Thyatian dialects. Your question is a little like asking how come the United States speaks English when its populace is so ethnically diverse. >> Because they were all part of one nation for roughly seven hundred >> years, during which time period most of the cities involved were >> actually founded? >> > > Yes, but there was still a lot of internal strife and tradition for > independence. Language often becomes a primary issue in such cases, which > could suggest the various regions of Darokin might have held on fiercely > to their own preferred tongue while accepting none of those of the > competitors. Possible, but Gaz11 doesn't do much to indicate that kind of fierce regional strife in the early Kingdom. By 650 AC, it describes the towns and villages becoming more independent, suggesting at one point they weren't, and that would still be after anywhere from two to six centuries of centralized rule, depending on what part of Darokin one is talking about. And, in any case, one must then wonder why all these regions, fiercely proud of their preferred language, would then abandon it in favor of a Thyatian dialect. > Again, the fact that Darokinian is spoken in Darokin does not discount the > possibility that it might be a dialect of Thyatian. However, one must then come up with a plausible reason for large portions of the Darokinian population coming to speak a dialect of a foreign language natively absent conquest or colonization, since it can't have evolved from Thyatian naturally, given the histories of the peoples involved. >> 1) The original people of Darokin are not closely ethnically related to >> the Thyatians, and were established as a distinct culture while Thyatis >> was just a rebellious Alphatian colony. Presumably, they must speak >> some language - which cannot be more than distantly related to Thyatian >> through common Traldar ancestry over a thousand years previous. >> > With you so far. Good. ;) >> 2) Thyatis never conquers Darokin, nor do Thyatian settlers displace the >> original Darokinian inhabitants. >> > > Correct in both cases. This does not discount the possibility of the > language creeping into the society, however. Indeed, in a nation of > merchants it will be spoken often, since the merchants must deal with the > empire on their doorstep. If the various regions fiercely defend their own > languages at the same time, the common foreign tongue will be spoken even > more inside the nation, because it's the only one everyone knows. Bear in mind that Thyatian does not just have to become the language used talking to outsiders, but the language used talking amongst one's own community. Otherwise, the Gazetteer/Almanac entries/what have you are rather deficient for not mentioning that the official language of Darokin is not widely spoken natively in Darokin. I'm no linguistics expert, but does anyone know of any real world example of this kind of thing happening? I.e., a foreign, at best distantly related language slowly replacing native languages in a country, without conquest or colonization? Also, given that for much of Darokin's history we're dealing with a unified Kingdom, it seems more likely that whatever Darokin City speaks (as established, not likely Thyatian) would take this role. Isn't that basically how Parisian French became "French" and the other dialects mainly extinct? I seem to recall reading about that somewhere; I could be wrong. >> Therefore, 3) There is no cause for the inhabitants of the Darokin to >> stop speaking their original language(s) or descendants thereof. >> > Which still begs the question of which those languages were? Some sort of Traldar-descended through Doulakki languages that are the ancestors of modern Darokinian, of course. It isn't like we have a finite number of language slots to work with, beyond which no more languages can be spoken on Mystara. I detailed my own planned names/histories for these in an earlier post. >> Therefore, 4) The native language(s) spoken in the Republic of Darokin, >> whatever it/they might be, is/are highly unlikely to be a dialect of >> Thyatian. >> > > At its outset, yes, but Darokin is, as a nation, old enough to have been > influenced substantially by foreign customs and traditions. In Darokin > this is even more likely than in most other nations, because the merchants > actively seek to conduct trade with foreigners. This will often bring them > into contact with Thyatians or people with whom they can only communicate > in Thyatian. If there is also no established central language for Darokin > itself at the same time, it is entirely possible that the most common > foreign tongue will generally be accepted throughout the nation if it is > the only language everyone has in common. Given the history, I believe: a) At worst the Kingdom of Darokin had two distinct, major language groups, say "Selenican" and "Darokin City". Most others would just be regional accents/dialects, but still mutually intelligible. Neither is likely to be closely related to Thyatian. b) Most likely, all official business in the Kingdom would be done in "Darokin City". This would have the effect of spreading the language to at the very least the nobility and upper classes of every corner of the Kingdom. c) Given b, even assuming there are enough equally important languages left in Darokin as of 927 AC to make the matter require thought (unlikely, IMO), there is no need for the founders of the Republic to pick a foreign tongue as the official language - it would almost certainly be "Darokin City", or a closely related descendant thereof. As a side note, if Darokin were really as linguistically/culturally diverse as you seem to believe at the time of the Great Merger, it would have been nigh impossible to agree upon, much less for it to have resulted in a nation of the type described in Gaz11 within 70-80 years. In any case, we seem to be agreed that at some point the people of Darokin spoke a non-Thyatian language. How is this language then displaced by a foreign language, without conquest or colonization by speakers of it? -- Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.mimiru.net/ ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 9 Sep 2004 to 10 Sep 2004 (#2004-190) ***************************************************************