Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 13 Sep 2004 to 14 Sep 2004 (#2004-194) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 15/09/2004, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 10 messages totalling 318 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Money (was Darokin: language) 2. Darokin: language (2) 3. fiends, demons and devils (4) 4. Ancient Languages (was Darokin: language) 5. Common (was Darokin: language) (2) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:04:28 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Money (was Darokin: language) ============================================================ From: Jon Cole (say he who has a spreadsheet that assigns nationality to each gold piece ;-( ) ============================================================ Ooh! I would like to see that! Can you send me a copy? (from one who tried to change all the penny weights and conversions, 1 Daro = 3 Dinari, et). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 05:32:30 -0700 From: Herve Musseau Subject: Re: Darokin: language In the Darokin gazetteer, it is stated that they use the Thyatian names of the months for their calendar. Most gazes where the people have a different language also have their own names for the month (even if they follow the Thyatian calendar): not only the demi-humans, but some humans as well like the Ethengar. I haven't checked all the gazes so I don't know if it's always the case where the language is not Thyatian, but food for thought. ===== ___________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 11:09:38 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Darokin: language Okay, here is my 2 Daro's worth of information. This is what I use IMC, comments are welcome. I wanted a better picture of Ethnography for my campaign, and languages as well. So I made a timeline with races/languages mixes running from left to right down through the ages. This gave me a better understanding, and allowed me to say what languages where older than others. For instance, Thyatian as a language has been spoken since 400 BC, relatively new compared to Traladaran. Of course as in any language, the Thyatian spoken 600 hundred years ago would be different from today. In fact if the Thyatian tribes were Thantalian stock, Hattian is the older language (circa 900-700 BC, Antalian mix). Kerrendian (with more Greek sounding words), did not evolve until Thantalians mingled with the Milenian, when they were exported out of Brun, circa 700-500 BC. IMC, Thyatian did not evolve until Thantalians mixed with the Doulakki circa 500-400 BC (when the tribes came back to Brun). In a way, Hattian would be Ancient Thyatian, while Kerrendian would be Middle Thyatian. Alasiyan, a mixture of Oltec and Neathar (from a near branch of Urduk), has also had a great influence on other languages. When mixed with Kerrendian, it formed Espadi in 500 AD (which produced Ispan, Espa, and Verdan within the last 250 years). When Alasiyan traders began moving wares westward, they began to influence the native tongues in the eastern end of pre-Darokin as early as 100 BC. Doulakki (itself a Thantalian mix) influenced by Nithian/Traladaran, evolved around 1100 BC into Solanikos, a name given to the people of the Sun’s Pass. A legend attributed to the sun rising over the Altan Tepes, and its first touch of light at the center of modern day Selenica. This can also attribute the East Wind clan as being from this area as well (as the sun’s rays are the wind of the sun, and the sun is from the east). This language evolved to Amencerian near 0 AC. As colonists from Thyatis moved west and north to Glantri, much of their language passed through, but stayed a s a trade tongue. Kerrendian was the most influential of the Thyatian languages at this time. With this change, Daro as a modern language evolved around 700 AC. The exchange was also mutual, many Thyatians brought back Amencerian to Thyatis, these imported words were mixed with Thyatian and produced Slag, better known as a trade tongue to use in the west. Daro to Slag is the same as Kerrendian is to Thyatian. Depending on your campaign, you may want to substitute Slag as the Common in areas like Karameikos, with laws, nobles, and clergy using Thyatian proper. In 750 AC, Amencerian died out completely, as it mixed with Ispan to create modern day Caurenze, now only spoken in modern day Glantri. Learners of Amencerian would get the added bonus of being able to communicate to people of Tuma and the fabled City of Brass. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:33:01 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: fiends, demons and devils In the 3e universe, where do Fiends fit into the picture of Demons and Devils? Should they be replaced by the 3e nasties (Fiends were originally referred to as Demons anyway), or should they be made into more powerful adversaries, strong enough to pose a challenge to the Immortals? Håvard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 12:09:27 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Ancient Languages (was Darokin: language) Characters taking Ancient Languages as a skill would learn languages according to this schedule: Hattian: No Ancient Language associated. Thyatian and Kerrendian: Curiously, even though Thyatian is Doulakki descended, Doulakki and Milenian were so interchangeable as they are sister languages; Milenian is the associated Ancient Language. Traladaran: Doulakki, possibly explaining the Thyatian’s use of Milenian and furthering the belief these peoples were not related. (Traladaran’s learning an Ancient Language should be extremely rare, as nothing was recorded since the time of Halav and Traladaran predates Doulakki. Only recently are sages speculating and associating Doulakki as the Ancient Language of Traladara, as the oldest surviving text was written in Doulakki). Daro, Caurenze, Espa, Verdan, and Alasiyan: Amencerian. Even though Alasiyan gave birth to many of the languages and even influenced the creation of Amencerian; Alasiyan went through a dark ages between bitter battles between Thyatis and Alphatia. Most records of their ancient histories that survived were recorded by Amencerians, and thus Alasiyan and its descendant languages attribute Amencerian as their Ancient Language. As an added flavor to your campaign, Amencerian can still be used as a theological language in Darokin. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 11:18:06 -0500 From: Eric Anondson Subject: Re: fiends, demons and devils On Sep 14, 2004, at 10:33 AM, Havard Faanes wrote: > In the 3e universe, where do Fiends fit into the picture of Demons and > Devils? In the 3e lingo, "Fiend" is a generic term for a native inhabitant of the Lower Planes. Demons, Devils, Daemons (er... Yugoloths), Demodands, are all Fiends in 3e. There is a "Fiendish" template that can be applied to any creature, like say bears, if a bear was from the Nine Hells, making the bear a "fiendish bear". There is a "half-fiend" template as well, if the creature is born of the union a normal creature and a fiend. Regards, Eric Anondson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:43:17 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: fiends, demons and devils Oh yeah that is right. But what about the OD&D Demons/Fiends. Should we simply pick their Demon/Devil counterparts or should they be converted to 3e as separate entities. And since their names have been taken, what should they be called if we decide to convert them? Håvard --- Eric Anondson skrev: > On Sep 14, 2004, at 10:33 AM, Havard Faanes wrote: > > > In the 3e universe, where do Fiends fit into the > picture of Demons and > > Devils? > > In the 3e lingo, "Fiend" is a generic term for a > native inhabitant of > the Lower Planes. Demons, Devils, Daemons (er... > Yugoloths), Demodands, > are all Fiends in 3e. > > There is a "Fiendish" template that can be applied > to any creature, > like say bears, if a bear was from the Nine Hells, > making the bear a > "fiendish bear". There is a "half-fiend" template as > well, if the > creature is born of the union a normal creature and > a fiend. > > > Regards, > Eric Anondson > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 12:53:57 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Common (was Darokin: language) For the Known World, Common is broken down to this: Because of Thyatis’ History, Slag is commonly called “Thyatian”. Five Shires = Daro (the only reasoning behind this must be the close association to other countries speaking Daro, and possibly Daro was easier to learn than orcish (or orcish in this area was a corrupted form of Amencerian); why would the Hin forget Lalor and promote a human tongue, I don’t know). Ierendi: Common = Slag, this is due to many revolutionist being of Thyatian heritage, and to attract tourists and sailors into their academy (if listed as speaking Ierendian, it is Makai). Fire Islanders speak Flaemish, and if you don’t want them to barbeque you (a Makai word), you better learn Flaemish as well. Darokin: Common = Daro, because of the closeness of Slag; many mistakenly think Daro is a dialect of Thayatian, when the reality is the opposite. Glantri: Common = Slag, with Caurenze becoming more popular as it is easily translatable to the Belcadiz and Daro as well (and Ethengarians have a hard time pronouncing many of the hard consonants). Karameikos: Common = Slag, Thyatian being the court language. Thyatis: If Thyatian or Kerrendian, Common can be both Slag and the mother tongue. Kerrendian can substitute Daro for Slag as well. If Hattian, only Hattian (no self righteous Hattian would speak some kind of dirty language). Aristocracy and alike would also not associate to speaking Slag, that is only for the traders and militia (non-officers) to speak. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 15:06:07 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Common (was Darokin: language) In this light, Common in the Known World on Brun can be either Daro or Slag. Daro is not a dialect of Thyatian, and to non-Thyatians, they think Slag is Thyatian and so assume Daro is a dialect thereof. In reality we have quite the opposite of Thyatians influencing Darokin, as more and more Thyatians speak a variation of the Darokin’s original language of Amencerian as Slag. This makes Thyatian more like real world Greek, and Amencerian as the Latin replacing it. A major difference between Daro and Slag is the use of refined Amencerian script, borrowing many characters from Alasiyan and elvish for use in writing Daro, making calligraphy and numbering systems useful. Thyatian letters are a variation of runic and Milenian script, still a far way from calligraphy and numbering is cumbersome. Many well traveled Thyatians, especially merchants, are adopting the Daro numbering system; a practice that Glantri has done since the beginning of their School of Magic. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 01:14:15 -0400 From: Donald Eric Kesler Subject: Re: fiends, demons and devils Hello, In my campaign, most demons are treated like Titans. Beings that almost made it to the status of Immortals, but fell short. Also, I tend to think of certain highly magical Mystaran races as being associated with certain Immortals. For example, the Sollux and the Sun Brothers are a servant race created by Ixion. This is where lesser demons like the Death Demons a.k.a. Ostegos (sp?) fit in. They are not true immortals. Nor are they on the level of the Titans, like most of the standard Demons. Still, they do have close ties to the Sphere of Enthropy. As an aside, I treat the Burrowers as Lovecraftian creatures. This puts the Immortals in the role of the Elder Gods. Well, none of this is really Lovecraftian. It is more like Lovecraft as he understood by Derleth. I am sure Cthulhudrew knows what I am talking about. Regards and Best Wishes, Donald Eric Kesler http://www.geocities.com/heroclixleagueofathens/ > From: Havard Faanes > Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: [MYSTARA] fiends, demons and devils > Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:33:01 +0200 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Received: from mc4-f14.hotmail.com ([65.54.190.150]) by mc4-s13.hotmail.com > with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6824); Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:58:45 -0700 > Received: from oracle.wizards.com ([209.221.142.150]) by > mc4-f14.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6824); Tue, 14 Sep 2004 > 08:58:45 -0700 > Received: from lotus (10.12.8.13) by oracle.wizards.com (LSMTP for Windows > NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.01337675@oracle.wizards.com>; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 > 8:57:11 -0700 > Received: from ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM by ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM (LISTSERV-TCP/IP > release 1.8d) with spool id 39958249 for > MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:33:01 -0700 > Received: from web40714.mail.yahoo.com (66.218.78.171) by > oracle.wizards.com (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id > <0.01336B74@oracle.wizards.com>; Tue, 14 Sep 2004 8:33:01 -0700 > Received: from [129.241.28.247] by web40714.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, > 14 Sep 2004 17:33:01 CEST > X-Message-Info: 820stLNiepRRq9VuQVvxvSNIEiiG2HEwLCc7omvgbg8= > Message-ID: <20040914153301.12010.qmail@web40714.mail.yahoo.com> > Return-Path: owner-mystara-l@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Sep 2004 15:58:45.0710 (UTC) > FILETIME=[B71A7EE0:01C49A73] > > In the 3e universe, where do Fiends fit into the > picture of Demons and Devils? Should they be replaced > by the 3e nasties (Fiends were originally referred to > as Demons anyway), or should they be made into more > powerful adversaries, strong enough to pose a > challenge to the Immortals? > > Håvard > > ===== > *** > Håvard R. Faanes > www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa > > ______________________________________________________ > Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ > Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 13 Sep 2004 to 14 Sep 2004 (#2004-194) ****************************************************************