Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 19 Sep 2004 to 20 Sep 2004 (#2004-199) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 21/09/2004, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 6 messages totalling 535 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. WOTI: Halav, Petra & Zirchev (4) 2. Mystara stuff in Monster Manual III? 3. On that old scourge called canon (was: Darokinian language) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:08:33 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: WOTI: Halav, Petra & Zirchev If you are using the Desert Nomads scenario in connection with WotI, there will be some trouble going on in Karameikos. Red Arrow Black Shield introduced a conflict with the Black Eagle, which the PCs acting as ambassadors for Darokin must help prevent in order to ensure support from Karameikos in the war against the Master. IMC I decided to leave the Black Eagle out of it, but subsitituted this scenario with that of another mage causing major trouble in the country, since the whole Black Eagle scenario is played out in the Almanac series. Halav, Petra and Zirchev might be tied in here trying to help the people of Karameikos. Getting rid of the Thyatian influence seems to be of secondary importance to the Three. After all, Stefan Karameikos is a better option than Thyatian Dominance over the Traladaran lands. Tying in the Blood Brethren Triology with WotI is more tricky. I'd say the trilogy should happen before WotI, or perhaps after the initial conflict between Ixion and Rad, but before things start accellerating. The Blood Brethren Trilogy, an excellent scenario btw, has the Immortals trapped in the past by Thanatos, so that doesn't work well with having immortal conflict create chaos in the Known World. Unless ofcourse, the Immortals (entropics excepted) are trapped by Thanatos *after* they have started setting things in motion, which leads to the situation spinning further out of control than the Immortals had intended. The immortals return to find that all-out war has broken loose in the KW. Meanwhile, people feeling that the Immortals have abandoned them have gone out in search of new immortals, discovering the fake cults set up by Hel and friends. Hmmm...the more I think about this, the more it is beginning to make sense... Håvard --- Donald Eric Kesler skrev: > Hello, > > I am currently running Wrath of the Immortals. One > of my player is playing > a cleric of Petra. I know that there is nothing in > the canon about the > roles that the Immortals of the Traladar played > during Wrath of the > Immortals. How did the rest of you handle this? > Based on the outcome of > Wrath of the Immortals, it would seem as if these > three were primarily > concerned with ensuring both the security and future > prosperity of the Grand > Duchy of Karameikos. Basically, they did all that > they could to stay as far > out of this as was humanly possible. > > Also, I would like to try to work in the Blood > Brethren Trilogy and the > Master of the Desert Nomads trilogy into the Wrath > of the Immortals story > arc. Any help or ideas would be greatly > appreciated. > > Regards and Best Wishes, > > Donald Eric Kesler > > > > http://www.geocities.com/heroclixleagueofathens/ > > _________________________________________________________________ > Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer > virus scan from McAfee® > Security. > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:25:13 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Mystara stuff in Monster Manual III? Did anyone get a chance to pick up MM3 yet? It should be out this month. I haven't bought it yet, but after looking through the art gallery for it, it looks like it might be of some interest for Mystara fans. Check out the art gallery I'm talking about here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20040903a First of all the new Troll variants seem somewhat reminiscent of the Trolls mentioned in the Northern Reaches Gaz, which never had stats for them. I can't remember which subtypes were specifically mentioned there, but these guys might be a good match. Also, I think the Eldritch Giant might be a good version of the Great Giant (Jotun) mentioned in the same Gaz. The "Drowned" sounds like it might be an adaption of the norse creature Draugr, which although not mentioned in the NR gaz fits pretty well into that setting. The two illustrations of Rakshasa subtypes work well as illustrations for Rakasta, so I have already downloaded those images onto my hard disk. The Mud Golem also appeared in OD&D material so its Mystaran in my book. The Warforged are included in ths book for those who don't want to buy Ebberron. As has already been discussed, Warforged may be used to detail the Automatons of Blacklore. The Red Cap is straight out of Tall Tales of the Wee Folk. I love the illustration. Not sure what an Ibixian is. I suspect it might be some sort of Outsider, but the illustration looks just like how I imagined the Goat Men of the Black Mountains. Honorable mention goes to the Dracotaur, Kenku, Justicator and the Wood Voad. While none of these can be considered inherently Mystaran, I think they look pretty cool. OTOH, it looks like they have included a larger than normal number of silly/weird creatures in this installment of the Monster Manual series that I would probably never use IMC. So, did I miss anything? Would be interested in hearing from people who have bought the book if it is useful for a Mystara campaign or not. By the way I love how Wizards are putting out these image galleries. Excellent for handouts for my campaign :) Håvard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 07:34:48 -0400 From: Donald Eric Kesler Subject: Re: WOTI: Halav, Petra & Zirchev > > If you are using the Desert Nomads scenario in > connection with WotI, there will be some trouble going > on in Karameikos. Red Arrow Black Shield introduced a > conflict with the Black Eagle, which the PCs acting as > ambassadors for Darokin must help prevent in order to > ensure support from Karameikos in the war against the > Master. > > IMC I decided to leave the Black Eagle out of it, but > subsitituted this scenario with that of another mage > causing major trouble in the country, since the whole > Black Eagle scenario is played out in the Almanac > series. Actually, this is one of the reasons that I want to go ahead and red Run Arrow/Black Shield as soon as possible. The players have been chomping at the bit to do something about the Black Eagle Barony since day one. > Halav, Petra and Zirchev might be tied in here trying > to help the people of Karameikos. Getting rid of the > Thyatian influence seems to be of secondary importance > to the Three. After all, Stefan Karameikos is a better > option than Thyatian Dominance over the Traladaran > lands. Agreed. > Tying in the Blood Brethren Triology with WotI is more > tricky. I'd say the trilogy should happen before WotI, > or perhaps after the initial conflict between Ixion > and Rad, but before things start accellerating. I was thinking late Winter of 1003 or early Spring of 1004. > The Blood Brethren Trilogy, an excellent scenario btw, > has the Immortals trapped in the past by Thanatos, so > that doesn't work well with having immortal conflict > create chaos in the Known World. Unless ofcourse, the > Immortals (entropics excepted) are trapped by Thanatos > *after* they have started setting things in motion, > which leads to the situation spinning further out of > control than the Immortals had intended. The immortals > return to find that all-out war has broken loose in > the KW. Meanwhile, people feeling that the Immortals > have abandoned them have gone out in search of new > immortals, discovering the fake cults set up by Hel > and friends. > > Hmmm...the more I think about this, the more it is > beginning to make sense... > > Håvard Yeah. That was what I was starting to think. I was planning on launching into this trilogy right after the Party finishes the very first adventure in WOTI. Benekander will fill in the role in the module that was written for Asterius. > > --- Donald Eric Kesler > skrev: > > Hello, > > > > I am currently running Wrath of the Immortals. One > > of my player is playing > > a cleric of Petra. I know that there is nothing in > > the canon about the > > roles that the Immortals of the Traladar played > > during Wrath of the > > Immortals. How did the rest of you handle this? > > Based on the outcome of > > Wrath of the Immortals, it would seem as if these > > three were primarily > > concerned with ensuring both the security and future > > prosperity of the Grand > > Duchy of Karameikos. Basically, they did all that > > they could to stay as far > > out of this as was humanly possible. > > > > Also, I would like to try to work in the Blood > > Brethren Trilogy and the > > Master of the Desert Nomads trilogy into the Wrath > > of the Immortals story > > arc. Any help or ideas would be greatly > > appreciated. > > > > Regards and Best Wishes, > > > > Donald Eric Kesler > > > > > > > > http://www.geocities.com/heroclixleagueofathens/ > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer > > virus scan from McAfee® > > Security. > > > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: > > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > > To unsubscribe, send email to > > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > > > ===== > *** > Håvard R. Faanes > www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:56:44 +0000 From: Rodger Burns Subject: Re: WOTI: Halav, Petra & Zirchev > Hello, > (snip) > > Also, I would like to try to work in the Blood Brethren Trilogy and the > Master of the Desert Nomads trilogy into the Wrath of the Immortals story > arc. Any help or ideas would be greatly appreciated. > Heya, Interesting thoughts so far on X10 and the Blood Brethren trilogy. As far as BB are concerned, I'd give some thought to making one or two additional changes: 1. Asterius doesn't stick around in 'present time' to guard the time buoy; he goes back in time with all the other Immortals, and gets trapped along with them. The role in the adventure of 'desperately overmatched Immortal guide and patron' goes to Benekander, who isn't trapped in the Vampire Sheath but is instead just very much on the sidelines of normal Immortal politics and trying to counter Thanatos as best he can. 2. Another possible thought is to make Irila Kaze an Alphatian wizard, and originate the outer world portion of the adventure in Alphatia. (The goblin princes might be relatives of some goblin tribal chieftain in Limn, or might reside in some wilderness area of Bellisaria or the IoD.) The reason to make this change revolves around the Alphatian Neatharum story arc - in this campaign setup, the Alphatian move into the HW isn't sparked by reports from the Princess Ark, but from reports by the PCs themselves (or associated NPCs) who get involved in the BB trilogy! > Regards and Best Wishes, > > Donald Eric Kesler > Good luck, - Rodger Burns libramus@scn.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:32:27 -0700 From: The Stalker Subject: Re: WOTI: Halav, Petra & Zirchev On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 00:51:33 -0400, Donald Eric Kesler wrote: > Hello, > > I am currently running Wrath of the Immortals. One of my player is playing > a cleric of Petra. I know that there is nothing in the canon about the > roles that the Immortals of the Traladar played during Wrath of the > Immortals. How did the rest of you handle this? Based on the outcome of > Wrath of the Immortals, it would seem as if these three were primarily > concerned with ensuring both the security and future prosperity of the Grand > Duchy of Karameikos. Basically, they did all that they could to stay as far > out of this as was humanly possible. > Well, I generally assumed that most of the Immortals not directly involved in the war were more concerned with settling the differences and ending the war rather than choosing a side, while making certain than their nations/followers were not harmed by it at the same time. I'd let several of them have their clerics perform missions along the lines of what Asterius does (trying to find out who is doing what to whom and why). I stayed a bit back from this IMC, since one player was actually a priest of Ixion and so clearly motivated to aid the Alphatian side of things. > Also, I would like to try to work in the Blood Brethren Trilogy and the > Master of the Desert Nomads trilogy into the Wrath of the Immortals story > arc. Any help or ideas would be greatly appreciated. > I've never played the Blood Brethren trilogy (though I do own it), so I'll skip that. I didn't have any of the Master of the Desert Nomad adventures at the time (though I had read X10 once before), and since one of my players was a Darokinian wizardess who was also a diplomat for the DDC, I ran several diplomatic missions in which the group was trying to gain aid for Darokin in its stand against the Master. They managed to secure aid from Alfheim (saved King Doriath as per the Great Hunt adventure in Gaz 5), from Rockhome by rescuing some lost dwarves (the "Dragon's Delve" adventure from an issue of Dungeon - one emissary was actually Bofin, King Everast's son and later king), from the Five Shires ("By Merklan's Magic", another Dungeon adventure), and so forth. When they sought aid from Karameikos, Stefan told them he would help, but only if a treaty was in place with Alphatia first. Since the wizardess was a diplomat for the DDC, he charged her with mediating the negotiations with the Alphatians and sent the group with Teldon to Alphatia to secure the deal, so that he could be sure Alphatia wouldn't make landfall on Brun via Karameikos and keep Thyatian retaliation in check at the same time. In return he would send support troops to aid Darokin. This sent the group (including Teldon) off on a long trip to Alphatia with lots of adventuring and hostile agents along the way. Of course, once the group got back, they also had to prevent an attempted assassination against Stefan by parties unknown. Naturally this was actually the Thyatian ambassador, Cornel Osteric, though the PCs never managed to prove this, but certainly suspected (there is actually canon basis for this in the description of Osteric in K:KoA, p.92). Well, that's what we did, at least. Hope there's a few idea in there. - The Stalker ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:25:49 -0500 From: Aaron Nowack Subject: Re: On that old scourge called canon (was: Darokinian language) The Stalker wrote: > Hmm, I think a lot of our problems with this topic comes from our > different perspectives. You seem to want to establish Darokin's past and > proceed on that basis, regardless of what any source or canon might say to > contradict that, whereas I'm more inclined to approach the matter from a > perspective of reconciling canon in a way that makes sense. > > While your approach does not present a major problem as such, it will > invariably conflict with canon, since, whether we like it or not, K:KoA is > a canon source. If you wish to dismiss it, then that is your choice, but > as a consequence we will not be having the same conversation, since I'm > first looking at what canon tells me. As I've said before, there will > always be things in canon that we don't like and want to 'fix' things in > canon material. Ignoring or contradicting canon presents problems to DMs > and campaigns that took those sources to heart and made them part of their > foundation, however. So you believe the MAs should work on the assumption that the Nucleus of the Spheres still drains Energy? I'm not the type to go throwing out canon just because I don't like it. However, lets be perfectly clear - we're not dealing with a major, indisputable fact here. What we have is a single line about Darokin, in a product about Karameikos, that, while perhaps not a direct contradiction, is certainly questionable in light of both previously established canon published approximately the same time. (PWA3, in addition to 1 and 2, has Darokin speaking Darokinian, with no mention of it being a Thyatian dialect.) In that situation, the most reasonable thing to do is to see what makes the most sense. I think I've rather conclusively shown which version does. In addition, in recent research for my timeline, I came across the following line in Dragonking of Mystara, which is at least as canon as the line in question from K:KoA - "His travels in the past five years had taught him to speak the languages of both Thyatis and Darokin." (p. 35) So there's clear canon that Thyatian was not spoken in Darokin in ~500 AC, and a strong implication that there was a single dominant language in Darokin around that time. I can not think of any reasonable way to, in the course of 500 years, given the constraints of what we know happened in Darokin during this relatively well-defined period of history (notably, no Thyatian conquest and no overwhelmingly large influx of Thyatian speakers): a) Eliminate or greatly reduce the language spoken in Darokin in 500 AC. b) Replace it with Thyatian. c) Have this Thyatian diverge sufficiently to be a distinct dialect, rather than a regional accent. > I did not > find the idea to be impossible or even unreasonable, however. My whole argument is based on the fact that it _is_ unreasonable - to have a Thyatian dialect the primary language spoken in Darokin, one must assume of sequence of fairly unlikely, rather major events occurring with absolutely no mention in any canon source. However, ultimately, it doesn't matter too much. All it really means is that there's one more line of the MAs I'll ignore, and that my timeline won't attempt to contian any such sequence of events. -- Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.mimiru.net/ ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 19 Sep 2004 to 20 Sep 2004 (#2004-199) ****************************************************************