Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 23 Sep 2004 to 24 Sep 2004 (#2004-203) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 25/09/2004, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 13 messages totalling 700 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Change of Address (2) 2. On that old scourge called canon (10) 3. On that old scourge called canon (was: Darokinian ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 22:00:11 +1200 From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Change of Address Hi all, Just a quick note to inform you that my new e-mail is: c_furneaux@orcon.net.nz so please update your address books etc. My old address c_furneaux@paradise.net.nz is going to be deactivated so I can no longer be contacted there. Regards, Chris Furneaux P.S. I'm the Kiwi Chris as vini pointed out a while back I've just been so busy lately I've mostle been lurking. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 08:43:44 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Change of Address ============================================================ From: Chris Furneaux Chris Furneaux P.S. I'm the Kiwi Chris as vini pointed out a while back I've just been so busy lately I've mostle been lurking. ============================================================ As opposed to the Hurricane Chris, I wish I could be emailing my change of address right now: Left Florida, have new addie! One can only dream... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 15:43:19 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: On that old scourge called canon Okay, you guys (Stalker, FL-Chris) are right when you point out that conflicts easily can exist among people who worship the same deities, either between different denominations or groups within the same denomination even. However, in the example of Karameikos, making the CoK follow the Traladaran Three dramatically changes the very nature of the conflict (if any). The Traladaran religion is linked to their cultural and historical heritage and identity, whereas the Thyatian settlers have a different culture, a different religion etc. I'll have to reread K:KoA, but if the things that have come upin this thread are correct, then I realize that the AD&D update changed things much more dramatically than I thought, and for the worse. I'd love to see an errata-type document, listing fixes to all of the mistakes and also presenting options for alterations to elements that aren't downright errors, but that people feel should have changed between AC1000 and AC 1012 (character levels, noble titles etc). Some ideas: * Language (Thyatian and Traladaran) * Character Ages (Some characters weren't aged) * Revised CoK Pantheon * Noble Titles (Promotions when Stefan became a King) * Level increase * Alfheim Elves info * Vyalia info * Valley of Hutaaka (What has happened there) All of the above is stuff that I would have liked to see included in K:KoA, but that was not included. Håvard --- The Stalker skrev: > On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:12:03 +0200, Havard Faanes > > wrote: > > (snip) > > > >I intend to have my Church of Karameikos go through > a > >sort of reformation process which eventually (After > >bloody conflict) will produce a Reformed Church of > >Karameikos, which allows for both the Traladaran > and > >Karameikan pantheons, but I don't think it should > >happen as early as 1010 or whenever K:KOA is set. > > > > AC 1012 > > >K:KoA OTOH does this while still presenting two > >separate Churches. If they have the same patron > >immortals, then where is the root of the tension > >between the two? > > > Without going into the subject of whether these > churches should or > shouldn't have the same patron Immortals, just try > to compare to the real > world: > > Christianity and Jewism also share the same God. > Plenty of tension there, > methinks. > > Or just look at the branches within Christianity > itself, particularly > during the medieval ages. Even today, there is > plenty of tension between > Catholics and Protestants, even if they are all > Christians. > > > - The Stalker > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 10:13:00 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: On that old scourge called canon ============================================================ From: Havard Faanes I'll have to reread K:KoA, but if the things that have come upin this thread are correct, then I realize that the AD&D update changed things much more dramatically than I thought, and for the worse. ============================================================ I actually don't own K:KoA, so I can't comment to its content. I did however buy the Glantri boxed set, and I personally did not like it (which is my reason why I did not purchase the K:KoA). To me, IMHO, they tried to hard to make the uniqueness of Mystara more unique and ended with a hokey product. Now from the gaz, the Church of Karameikos was just the western branch of the Church of Thyatis, if they are claiming they worship the Traladaran Three, and then they must mean the Church of Traladara. Unless something very drastic went on, did the Cult of Halav survive as the Church of Thyatis? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:39:14 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: On that old scourge called canon Havard Faanes wrote: > > However, in the example of Karameikos, making the CoK > follow the Traladaran Three dramatically changes the > very nature of the conflict (if any). The Traladaran > religion is linked to their cultural and historical > heritage and identity, whereas the Thyatian settlers > have a different culture, a different religion etc. Yes, that's the point. No sense for the Thyatians to follow Petra or Zirchev. > Some ideas: > * Language (Thyatian and Traladaran) What's the problem with Thyatian and Traladaran languages? I understand the problem with Darokinian becoming Thyatian -- and I strongly dislike the idea of "common", but I don't think Traladaran and Thyatian per se were changed. > * Revised CoK Pantheon BTW, Marco Dalmonte has been working on this with other guys at the Italian MMB. Here is the current consensus (among 4 or 5 people, nothing more general, mind you): Tarastia, Chardastes*, Asterius*, Vanya*, Kagyar*, Patura, Ilsundal* Those marked with * are canonic (either from Bruce Heard or from the adventure that mentioned Chardastes as being honored by the CoK). We removed Valerias from Bruce's list, mostly because she's Chaotic, and replaced her with Patura and Tarastia. Myself, I'd have used Ixion (for a nice parallel with the Church of Narvaez), but I suppose it would be too messy. > * Noble Titles (Promotions when Stefan became a King) I don't really think this is an error. There are still not enough barons to allow for some counts. However, we should check the status of Halag -- in K:KoA it is not assigned to a noble, while in the PWA there is a Baron. > All of the above is stuff that I would have liked to > see included in K:KoA, but that was not included. Yes, though K:KoA does have some redeeming points -- mostly in the Traladaran art, which while not being that artistic is still the largest concentration of setting-oriented art for the Known World (except perhaps G:KoM, which I do not have). Bye, GP -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 17:21:30 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: On that old scourge called canon --- Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > > Some ideas: > > * Language (Thyatian and Traladaran) > > What's the problem with Thyatian and Traladaran > languages? > I understand the problem with Darokinian becoming > Thyatian -- and I strongly dislike the idea of > "common", but I don't think Traladaran and Thyatian > per se were changed. I might have misread that, but IIRC someone said Traladarans don't have their own language according to K:KoA. I'm not sure whether that is true or not though, but if it is, it should be changed back to the way it was in Gaz1. > > * Revised CoK Pantheon > > BTW, Marco Dalmonte has been working on this with > other guys at the Italian MMB. > Here is the current consensus (among 4 or 5 people, > nothing more general, mind you): > > Tarastia, Chardastes*, Asterius*, Vanya*, Kagyar*, > Patura, Ilsundal* Chardastes was not mentioned in the Bruce Heard article _and_ was moved over to the CoT according to WotI, which makes more sense to me. The Bruce Heard article listed Asterius, Vanya, Valerias, Kagyar and Ilsundal as the CoK pantheon, which is what I have been using, though I am working on a revision for a common pantheon for the churches of Karameikos, Thyatis and Darokin which includes these plus quite a few others. (Note that even if they will have the same pantheon they will be considered different denominations of the same religion). > > * Noble Titles (Promotions when Stefan became a > King) > > I don't really think this is an error. There are > still not enough barons to allow for some counts. > However, we should check the status of Halag -- in > K:KoA it is not assigned to a noble, while in the > PWA there is a Baron. Yeah, that is not an actual error, though Gaz1 says the reason why Stefan hasn't appointed any counts is linked to the fact that he doesnt want to use the title King in order not to offend the Emperor of Thyatis. Once he does the one thing it would make sense that he would upgrade his followers too. Then, they can upgrade their knights to barons. > > All of the above is stuff that I would have liked > to > > see included in K:KoA, but that was not included. > Yes, though K:KoA does have some redeeming points -- > mostly in the > Traladaran art, which while not being that artistic > is still the largest > concentration of setting-oriented art for the Known > World (except > perhaps G:KoM, which I do not have). The art in K:KoA is pretty good, I agree. G:KoM's art is not as good as the one in K:KoA though. Håvard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 17:28:34 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: On that old scourge called canon --- Chris Cherrington wrote: To me, > IMHO, they tried to hard to make the uniqueness of > Mystara more unique and ended with a hokey product. If they wanted to make Mystara more unique they failed miserably IMO. They should have focused on the things that actually are different about Mystara such as the fact that there are Immortals rather than gods, that all elves use magic, that the Dimension of Nightmares is _not_ a demiplane etc etc.. > Now from the gaz, the Church of Karameikos was just > the western branch of the Church of Thyatis, if they > are claiming they worship the Traladaran Three, and > then they must mean the Church of Traladara. Unless > something very drastic went on, did the Cult of > Halav survive as the Church of Thyatis? I honestly believe that must have been a typo. Clearly the CoK should be related to the Church of Thyatis with some modifications made by Oliver Jowett. IMC the concept of forgiveness for any sin is something that separates the CoK from its Thyatian counterpart which focuses more on damnation for sin. (this is in part based on what was implied in the Gaz's, even though it was never spelled out) Also, the CoK is better organized with a more tight hierarchy. In the Thyatian Church, the Order devoted to each immortal is more independent, reducing it almost to a bunch of different religions, rather than just the one. Håvard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 12:12:15 -0400 From: Donald Eric Kesler Subject: Re: On that old scourge called canon Hello, Could someone tell me where I could find the Bruce Heard article on the Church of Karameikos? Someone mentioned that they could not see Valerias as being part of the COK Pantheon because of her chaotic nature. While it is true that she is chaotic, I think that many mortals could easily relate to her message of passion and love. After all, affairs of the heart are often chaotic. In fact, I would imagine that the firey Traladarans would be far more attracted to this diety than to the more sedate Immortals like Asterius. Regards and Best Wishes, Donald Eric Kesler > > > * Revised CoK Pantheon > > > > BTW, Marco Dalmonte has been working on this with > > other guys at the Italian MMB. > > Here is the current consensus (among 4 or 5 people, > > nothing more general, mind you): > > > > Tarastia, Chardastes*, Asterius*, Vanya*, Kagyar*, > > Patura, Ilsundal* > > Chardastes was not mentioned in the Bruce Heard > article _and_ was moved over to the CoT according to > WotI, which makes more sense to me. > > The Bruce Heard article listed Asterius, Vanya, > Valerias, Kagyar and Ilsundal as the CoK pantheon, > which is what I have been using, though I am working > on a revision for a common pantheon for the churches > of Karameikos, Thyatis and Darokin which includes > these plus quite a few others. (Note that even if they > will have the same pantheon they will be considered > different denominations of the same religion). _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 12:50:52 -0400 From: Donald Eric Kesler Subject: Re: On that old scourge called canon Hello, I'm afraid that I have to disagree. How both faiths deal with the notion of sin is not just implied in Gazetteer 1. It is pretty much spelled out on pages 23 - 24. The Church of Karameikos expects one to atone for sins through acts or ceremonies of purification. The primary philosophy is that no sin commited in the mortal world is so great that it cannot be purified from the spirit by great acts of self-sacrifice. In contrast to this, the Church of Traladara believes that sins should be punished in the manner that parents punish children. People should not harm one another, and that when they do the community should punish the wrongdoes in proportion to the degree of sin. In the COK if one dies before going through the proper rituals of purification, then the individual's role in the afterlife will reflect that. In the COT, ones role in the after life is determined by ones state of wisdom, strength of charcater and good-will at the time of death. Regards and Best Wishes, Donald Eric Kesler > IMC the concept of forgiveness for any sin is > something that separates the CoK from its Thyatian > counterpart which focuses more on damnation for sin. > (this is in part based on what was implied in the > Gaz's, even though it was never spelled out) > > > Håvard > _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 19:00:32 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: On that old scourge called canon Donald Eric Kesler ha scritto: > Hello, > > Could someone tell me where I could find the Bruce Heard article on the > Church of Karameikos? Actually, there's no article, just an answer to a letter, and all it says is that the pantheon of the CoK is composed of Asterius, Vanya, Valerias, Kagyar and Ilsundal. Chardastes, as I said, was linked to the CoK in a B module, IIRC. However, Havard says he was then moved to the CoT (which I also believe is his correct place) -- does anyone have a precise reference for this? > Someone mentioned that they could not see Valerias as being part of the COK > Pantheon because of her chaotic nature. While it is true that she is > chaotic, I think that many mortals could easily relate to her message of > passion and love. After all, affairs of the heart are often chaotic. That's true. Still, I can't see her as an official patron of a lawful church, especially one with the philosophy of the CoK. > In fact, I would imagine that the firey Traladarans would be far more > attracted to this diety than to the more sedate Immortals like Asterius. In fact, that was one reason to exclude her: the Traladaran are not generally attracted to the CoK. GP ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:38:18 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: On that old scourge called canon --- Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > Chardastes, as I said, was linked to the CoK in a B > module, IIRC. > However, Havard says he was then moved to the CoT > (which I also believe > is his correct place) -- does anyone have a precise > reference for this? He first appeared in B? Castle Caldwell. There it was stated that he was a member if the Church of Karameikos. However, that was before Gaz1 was published so there was no Church of Traladara at the time. In WotI, in the "Other Immortals" section, he is described as being a member of the Church of Traladara. I think that fits better, as he is native to those lands, whereas the patrons of the CoK should be associated with Thyatis, rather than Traladara. > > Someone mentioned that they could not see Valerias > as being part of the COK > > Pantheon because of her chaotic nature. While it > is true that she is > > chaotic, I think that many mortals could easily > relate to her message of > > passion and love. After all, affairs of the heart > are often chaotic. > > That's true. Still, I can't see her as an official > patron of a lawful > church, especially one with the philosophy of the > CoK. IMC the CoK focuses on her Love aspect, more than the passion aspect. I also have her be the pantheon's patron of healing, as noone else fills that niche. Håvard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:46:03 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: On that old scourge called canon Let me rephrase my statement about the difference betwen the CoK and the Thyatian Church (TC). Note: this is IMC, but should not conflict with canon: Both churches include the concept of sin. However, the CoK emphasizes the possibility of attonement whereas IMC, the TC is more vague on that account, featuring things like deadly sins. The definition of sins from the TC is the Bronze Tablets of Law, which in addition to the Scrolls of Knowledge make up the basis for the TC. The CoK also uses these sources, but includes the Book of Jowett, which details Patriarch Oliver Jowett's interpretations of the above. I included these things to make the two Churches more different from one another. The Church of Traladara remains unchanged IMC. Håvard --- Donald Eric Kesler skrev: > Hello, > > I'm afraid that I have to disagree. How both faiths > deal with the notion of > sin is not just implied in Gazetteer 1. It is > pretty much spelled out on > pages 23 - 24. > > The Church of Karameikos expects one to atone for > sins through acts or > ceremonies of purification. The primary philosophy > is that no sin commited > in the mortal world is so great that it cannot be > purified from the spirit > by great acts of self-sacrifice. > > In contrast to this, the Church of Traladara > believes that sins should be > punished in the manner that parents punish children. > People should not harm > one another, and that when they do the community > should punish the wrongdoes > in proportion to the degree of sin. > > In the COK if one dies before going through the > proper rituals of > purification, then the individual's role in the > afterlife will reflect that. > In the COT, ones role in the after life is > determined by ones state of > wisdom, strength of charcater and good-will at the > time of death. > > Regards and Best Wishes, > > Donald Eric Kesler > > > > >IMC the concept of forgiveness for any sin is > >something that separates the CoK from its Thyatian > >counterpart which focuses more on damnation for > sin. > >(this is in part based on what was implied in the > >Gaz's, even though it was never spelled out) > > > > > > >Håvard > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! > Download today - it's FREE! > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:59:03 -0400 From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: On that old scourge called canon (was: Darokinian Alright...discussing the merits of one product versus another is fine; discussing various interpretations of Mystaran history is fine; but the conversation is veering towards open flame country. If discussions can be brought back to Darokinian language, that would be great. Otherwise, I'll have to ask that the thread be terminated. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 23 Sep 2004 to 24 Sep 2004 (#2004-203) ****************************************************************