Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 7 Oct 2004 to 8 Oct 2004 (#2004-214) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 09/10/2004, 18:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 14 messages totalling 650 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Elemental Immortals (5) 2. Fwd: New mystarabrasil member 3. Stronghollow Dwarves (5) 4. Fading of Immortals and Blackmoor 5. Mystara GURPS anyone? (2) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 12:12:15 +0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ville_V_L=E4hde?= Subject: Elemental Immortals This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---559023410-824023566-1097226254=:5184 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1; FORMAT=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Content-ID: Concerning the discussion on the nature of the Immortals, we should remember the ones whose origins are not in the Prime Plane - the Elemental Immortals. If my memory serves me correctly, such beings were mentioned in the pre-WotI products. Has WotI - essentially a rewrite of all things concerning Immortals - hung on to this concept, Immortals not from Prime Plane? What about Immortals of Taymoran and Nithian era? Were all of them older Immortals that took a contemporary guise, or did those cultures produce home-grown Immortals? Some of them might be in pretty bad shape. Brings to mind the desperate attempts of Bast to gather enough "believer energy" for smoothening her fur before meeting Morhpeus in Neil Gaiman's "Sandman"... By the way, in my longlasting Mystara OD&D campaign I employed the idea of certain gods, even pantheons, fading away during "a Great Withdrawal" around 450-500 AC. But this is due to very campaign-specific reasons: for example, I wanted the 1000 AC Northern Reaches to be developed" past the Norse pantheon, since my Northern Reaches built extensively on the module "Crown of Ancient Glory". As a basis for the Withdrawal thing I created the notion of "Divine Foci", extremely powerful artefacts that function as portals to the immortal's/gods's base of power. In retrospect this idea didn't work too well, and I've let it fade to the background. Yours, Ville ------------------------------------------------------------ "But since 'nature' is a word which carries, over a very long period, many of the major variations of human thought - often, in any particular use, only implicit yet with powerful effect on the character of the argument - it is necessary to be especially aware of its difficulty." - Raymond Williams, Keywords ******************************************************* Ville Lähde University of Tampere Department of Mathematics, Statistics and Philosophy phone: (work) 03 215 7573 (home) 040 7776772 email: Ville.V.Lahde@uta.fi http://www.uta.fi/laitokset/mattiet/filosofia/lahde.htm ******************************************************* ---559023410-824023566-1097226254=:5184-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 03:21:45 -0700 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Elemental Immortals --- Ville V Lähde wrote: > Has WotI - essentially a rewrite of all things > concerning Immortals - hung > on to this concept, Immortals not from Prime Plane? Well, Terra is mentioned as having been an Earth Elemental before she attained Immortality, so I think it's a safe assumption, even if it isn't as explicitly spelled out as in the Gold Box set. > What about Immortals of Taymoran and Nithian era? There is a throwaway bit in the Hollow World Nithia book (in the history section) about the Nithian pharoahs going on quests for Immortality after handing the reigns over to their successors, and I think it names a couple of them by name. (However, it doesn't seem to take into account enough pharoahs to fill the millenia, and there are additional other "questionable" things in that accessory, so it should be taken with a grain of salt.) > Were all of them older Immortals that took a > contemporary guise, or did those cultures produce > home-grown Immortals? Seems to me there are a couple (Razud, maybe? Or Rathanos?) who are described as from Nithian origin. So, yes, they created some of their own. On the Fading that other posters have discussed- I, too, like the idea that some (many?) of these Immortals may have simply turned their attentions away from Mystara and to other areas- Other planets in the Prime, other Planes, even the Nightmare Dimension. Some of those old Blackmoor era Immortals, in particular, may have been drawn to the goings on in the galactic hub- after investigating the origins of the Beagle's appearance on Mystara. IMO, the Immortals that interact with Mystara are just a handful of the Immortal level beings out there. They are known and cooperate simply due to one overwhelming interest- Mystara. I imagine there are all sorts of other Immortals and Immortal-type beings involved in activities on the Prime that are unknown to the inhabitants of Mystara, simply because they've never been in contact, or even cared about, Mystara. It is an infinitely large plane, after all. And we know (unlike in our own universe) that the Mystara-verse has other planets and planetary systems that are inhabited with intelligent life- life that should potentially be as capable of elevating itself to Immortality as the people of Mystara are. One thing I find interesting is to see how few "original" Immortals there are, and then how many Mystaran Immortals come to be- particularly post-Great Rain of Fire. Is there a connection? Does it seem like there are more Immortals post-GRoF in the entire multiverse, or is Mystara a skewed sample because of its singular interests? (IE, are they just being Mystara-centric about things?) Was there some event that suddenly made Mystarans more capable of attaining Immortality than before, or did the previous (and now unknown) Immortals simply get bored and search elsewhere in the universe for something to do? I once noted that the rise of the Immortals seemed to come around the time of Arachne-Prime's retreat to Mystara (according to M5: Talons of Night). Perhaps the sudden interest in the planet by a few Immortals drew the attention of other Immortals. ("Wonder what they're doing over there?") Which, in turn, led to more Immortals being created ("Hey, as long as I'm here, might as well sponsor this guy...") ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 12:24:45 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: Elemental Immortals --- Ville V Lähde skrev: > Concerning the discussion on the nature of the > Immortals, we should > remember the ones whose origins are not in the Prime > Plane - the Elemental > Immortals. If my memory serves me correctly, such > beings were mentioned > in the pre-WotI products. > Has WotI - essentially a rewrite of all things > concerning Immortals - hung > on to this concept, Immortals not from Prime Plane? The Menzter Rulebooks had the Elemental Rulers who were IIRC not immortals, and then the Elemaster's who were immortal rules of each elemental plane. WotI makes no mention of this, but states that the immortal Terra was originally an earth elemental. My old theory was that the elemental planes had different rules from that of the prime plane. Elementals on the elemental planes could achive immortality by advancing in the elemental hierarchy, eventually becoming Elemasters, but to do so, they would have to defeat the current elemaster. That system would limit the number of elemental immortals, but provide more power to the Elemasters since they controlled each of the elemental planes. this meshes well with Mentzers idea about the Immortals having to strike bargains with th Elemasters in order to bring more fire, water, earth etc to their own home planes. The Terra thing doesn't fit very well with this, though. But perhaps she quested for immortality on the prime plane rather than on the elemental plane of earth? Her description in WotI might contradict that though, I'm not sure... > What about Immortals of Taymoran and Nithian era? > Were all of them older > Immortals that took a contemporary guise, or did > those cultures produce > home-grown Immortals? Some of them might be in > pretty bad shape. Brings to > mind the desperate attempts of Bast to gather enough > "believer energy" for > smoothening her fur before meeting Morhpeus in Neil > Gaiman's "Sandman"... In the current fan based material on Taymora, all the Immortals mentioned IIRC are immortals from WotI. Both Hel and Thanatos were central IIRC. There may have been other, lesser immortals ofcourse, but none have been detailed so far. I like the comparison to Bast in Sandman, though. Fits pretty well with my idea of having fading being a kind of Energy Drain for the immortals... Håvard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 12:23:42 -0300 From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Subject: Fwd: New mystarabrasil member Bem-vindo, amigo! Quer ser chamado por seu nome ou de "tavnos" mesmo? Abra=E7o e snta-se em casa, vini > Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 03:53:38 +0000 > From: Yahoo!Groups Notification > To: mystarabrasil-owner@yahoogroups.com > Subject: New mystarabrasil member > > > Hello, > > This is an automated email message to let you know that > tavnoz joined your mystarabrasil > group. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 17:42:39 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: Elemental Immortals --- Andrew Theisen wrote: > --- Ville V Lähde wrote: > > What about Immortals of Taymoran and Nithian era? > > There is a throwaway bit in the Hollow World Nithia > book (in the history section) about the Nithian > pharoahs going on quests for Immortality after > handing > the reigns over to their successors, and I think it > names a couple of them by name. (However, it doesn't > seem to take into account enough pharoahs to fill > the > millenia, and there are additional other > "questionable" things in that accessory, so it > should > be taken with a grain of salt.) AFAIK Noumenna is the only Pharaoh who has been known to achieve immortality. What if all later Pharaohs were simply mortal identities of Noumenna? > > Were all of them older Immortals that took a > > contemporary guise, or did those cultures produce > > home-grown Immortals? > > Seems to me there are a couple (Razud, maybe? Or > Rathanos?) who are described as from Nithian origin. > So, yes, they created some of their own. Were these said to be Pharaohs? I always mix Razud and Rathanos. Isn't one of them of Alphatian origin? Pflarr is another immortal of Nithian origin. > One thing I find interesting is to see how few > "original" Immortals there are, and then how many > Mystaran Immortals come to be- particularly > post-Great > Rain of Fire. Is there a connection? Does it seem > like > there are more Immortals post-GRoF in the entire > multiverse, or is Mystara a skewed sample because of > its singular interests? (IE, are they just being > Mystara-centric about things?) Was there some event > that suddenly made Mystarans more capable of > attaining > Immortality than before, or did the previous (and > now > unknown) Immortals simply get bored and search > elsewhere in the universe for something to do? I like the idea of having Mystara be unique when compared to the other millions of worlds out there. IIRC it is mentioned somewhere (Gold Immortals box?)that Mystara has spawned more immortals than any other world. This is due to the fact that magic is so common on this world. Perhaps, it is also linked somehow to the Radience? Another thing I was thinking about is that perhaps Immortals don't like "forreign" immortals interfering with their Solar system. Immortals tend to stay with the Solar system where they were created and don't like letting others in. That doesn't fit with all of the exisiting Mystaran immortals though. Perhaps this is a rule only applying to lower level immortals? The Hierarchs, I am sure are all over the place... Havard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 17:52:06 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: Stronghollow Dwarves --- Donald Eric Kesler skrev: > Hello All, > > I was just wondering if anyone has worked up > anything on the timeline for > the Dwarves of Karameikos? Not as far as I know, but it is a very interesting topic! :) > When did they arrive in > the Traladaran lands? the timeline gives a date for when the dwarves came to Karameikos. AC 200 I think. > Why did they leave Rockhome? Do they have a forge > of power? Not sure why they left. Perhaps they were unsatisfied with the situation back home. Or perhaps they were simply adventurous? I think they should have a forge of power, since all major dwarven clans usually have one. > Why did they > decide to live with the Highforge Gnomes? Gnomes and dwarves tend to get along well. There may be other reasons too ofcourse. > Obviously, the Gnomes arrived first. Otherwise, the > place would be called > Stronghollow. Makes sense to me. By the way, I created a dwarven name for Stronghollow. I can't remember it now, but ill get back to you when ive checked my notes. The dwarves refer to high forge as Eveskar IMC, as do the Gnomes. Håvard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 18:15:09 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Stronghollow Dwarves Havard Faanes wrote: > >> Why did they leave Rockhome? Do they have a forge >> of power? > > Not sure why they left. Perhaps they were unsatisfied > with the situation back home. Or perhaps they were > simply adventurous? I think they should have a forge > of power, since all major dwarven clans usually have > one. There was a time (perhaps more than one) in dwarven history when the kings of Rockhome (Syrklist kings, most likely) sponsored exploratory missions -- the Dwarves went as far as the Savage Coast. I suppose the Karameikan colony was one of the oldest settlements outside Rockhome. Bye, GP -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 18:17:32 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Elemental Immortals Havard Faanes wrote: > > AFAIK Noumenna is the only Pharaoh who has been known > to achieve immortality. What if all later Pharaohs > were simply mortal identities of Noumenna? Very unlikely: at least the last few pharaohs were corrupted entropic followers! Bye, -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 16:28:19 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Fading of Immortals and Blackmoor Perhaps Mystara produces more immortals and gets more attention because it is the center of the universe? Or because the immortals' favorite hangout, Pandius, is close by. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 14:31:26 -0700 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Stronghollow Dwarves --- Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > There was a time (perhaps more than one) in dwarven > history when the > kings of Rockhome (Syrklist kings, most likely) > sponsored exploratory > missions -- the Dwarves went as far as the Savage > Coast. > I suppose the Karameikan colony was one of the > oldest settlements > outside Rockhome. The Stronghollow clan might have set out on the same dwarven expeditions that led to the takeover of the Five Shires, possibly. They just decided to remain in Traladara (and look for gold there) rather than continue on to the halfling lands maybe. Also- I think it mentions in Gaz1 that they do have a forge of Power. Don't recall for certain, though. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 14:32:40 -0700 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Stronghollow Dwarves Now that I think of it- they could also have been a part of the clan movements that led dwarves to Thyatis (and the eventual founding of the dwarven nation there.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 16:36:50 -0700 From: The Stalker Subject: Re: Stronghollow Dwarves On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 01:22:40 -0400, Donald Eric Kesler wrote: > Hello All, > > I was just wondering if anyone has worked up anything on the timeline for > the Dwarves of Karameikos? When did they arrive in the Traladaran lands? > Why did they leave Rockhome? Do they have a forge of power? Why did they > decide to live with the Highforge Gnomes? > > Obviously, the Gnomes arrived first. Otherwise, the place would be called > Stronghollow. > Funny you should mention this just now, as I'm currently the unknown history of the Stronghollow clan for a minor plot in my own campaign. During a recent adventure, the dwarven fighter/cleric IMC met the ghost of a dwarf called Dain Ironfist in the dungeons under Mount Dread in the Black Peak Mountains (Mount Dread is really from the hated First Quest AD&D boxed set, but it does appear on the Karameikos map in K:KoA. Still, all I used was some background). The ghost agreed to help the group, if the dwarf would bring the lost crown of the Stronghollow clan back to the dwarves of Highforge. Just a background idea I had, but it did serve to explain some of the mysteriousness of the dwarven/gnomish settlement of Highforge, I thought. After all, as you say yourself, it is noteworthy that the gnomes seem to control Highforge with Dorfus Hilltopper in charge as the Gnome-King. I find that dwarves usually settle their own kingdoms/settlements when venturing forth from Rockhome, so I cast the Stronghollow clan as a dwarven colony that failed because their king and crown symbolic of the clan were lost in the caverns of Mount Dread, and the dwarves were then sort of absorbed into the gnomish colony. I naturally haven't told my players this, but the return of the crown could actually cause some trouble, since the dwarves might see it as a sign that their own kingdom can now be regained. This could split them from the gnomes, sending Highforge into turmoil, or even worse. Not sure if that's a workable idea, but it's at least something I've been considering. In truth, though, I doubt I'll even use it in my own campaign... Anyway, just a few thoughts. - The Stalker ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 16:45:17 -0700 From: The Stalker Subject: Mystara GURPS anyone? I've recently acquired the new 4th edition GURPS rules (the two basic books). Since I'm really sick and tired with (A)D&D rules and hate 3e rules so much I just can't play with them, I'm considering the idea of running Mystara with GURPS rules. Anyone tried this before? For a long time, I thought the rules would not fit for Mystara, since Mystara is so closely tied to the central concepts of D&D/AD&D, but when I think about it, it seems to me that the problems is greatest with the spell system, due to the influence and importance the D&D spell system has on the history of Mystara. I don't think I can separate Mystara from that, but I probably won't have to if I can just incorporate a version of the D&D spell system into GURPS rules, which shouldn't be =EDmpossible (never cared so much for the GURPS magic system anyway...). Anyone tried anything like this or having similar thoughts? - The Stalker ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 17:52:46 -0700 From: Ray Allen Subject: Re: Mystara GURPS anyone? Hi all! I don't remember if I announced it here or not, but I made a PHB out of the 3.5e SRD that is close to the "feel" of the Moldvay edition. It's just 67 pages long. It's not GURPS but maybe it will make you feel better about the 3e stuff as I have some of my house rules in it. Here's your link. http://home.psknet.com/allenr/Dark_Coast.html I had to take all of the pretty graphics out of it due to copyright , but all of the text is there. We're currently using it in our Mystara campaign. It seems to work rather well. I have Skills and Feats listed as optional rules. They aren't IMC but for those who decide not to use them, they should find another way to do thieving abilities. --Ray. --- The Stalker wrote: > I've recently acquired the new 4th edition GURPS rules > (the two basic > books). Since I'm really sick and tired with (A)D&D > rules and hate 3e > rules so much I just can't play with them, I'm > considering the idea of > running Mystara with GURPS rules. ===== If you have to choose between books and computers, there's no doubt which you should choose. You should choose books. --Bill Gates of Microsoft ---------------------------------------------- Geek Code: GLS$ d- s:+ a C++ UL++++ P? L++ E---- W++ N+ o-- K- w--- O? M- V-- PS+++ PE Y PGP- t+ 5-- X+++ R++ tv-- b++ DI- D---- G-- e+++ h--- r+++ y+++ ---------------------------------------------- Don't tell me the RIAA are a bunch of hypocritical, dishonest bastards! Now I have nothing left to believe in. (www.slashdot.org) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 7 Oct 2004 to 8 Oct 2004 (#2004-214) **************************************************************