Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 16 Oct 2004 to 18 Oct 2004 (#2004-223) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 19/10/2004, 18:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 9 messages totalling 636 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History (3) 2. Tentative Belcadiz History (6) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/default.aspx To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 07:28:34 -0300 From: Steven Carter Subject: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Having taken up the cause of Ochalea's entry in the almanac I've discovered that to make it all make sense a chronology of the island nation was required. (In fact a complete timeline of Mystara was required but I'll get to that in a later post.) It's nearly impossible to assimilate all the published material (especially since I don't have it all) as well as the material in the Vaults so I'm just going to ask openly if the following points conflict with material any of you know better than I do at this point. <-> I need to place the origins of a Sino/Asiatic stone-to-bronze age transitional culture partly related to the Ethengar people somewhere on Skothar about 3500 BC. Any places I need to avoid or any localities currently not occupied? <-> That people I've determined should leave that area about the time of the Rain of Fire and planetshift. <-> Their mass migration will result in massive losses but the survivors (still in significant numbers) should wind up making landfall on the Ochalea island over a spread of years about 2800 BC. <-> If there were inhabitants there I think they should be very small numbers of Thonians and Oltec. Possibly some lizardman elements. Any human inhabitants should be quite small in number and should be assimilated by the newcomers. Any thoughts? <->The period between 2700 BC when a new dynasty begins and the Alphatian conquest will span about 2000 years and include a few dynasties, civil wars, international wars and how the island people deal with Nithia. <->Sporadic contact with Taymoran Empire far to the north west after 2500 BC. Possibly a few invasion attempts which continue to sour Ochalean sentiments against arcane magic. (To what extent were the Taymorans sea-faring?) <-> The great sages of Ochalean philosophy live between 1700 BC and 1400 BC. This is when the greatest classics of philosophy are written solidifying the cultural outlook and institutionalizing the Ochalean brand of mysticism and expression of clerical devotion. <-> Also about 1700 BC the royal line is broken and the nation fragments into several ethinic kingdoms based on old tribal lines. <-> Ochalea is united again about 1350~1400 BC until the Alphatian invasion around 750 BC. <-> The Alphatian conquest should be around 750 BC. It should consist of tens of thousands of mundane common Alphatians and a few hundred noble overseers. The common Alphatians will likewise be mostly assimilated by the native culture although the resultant gestalt will be new and dynamic and incorporate a massive anti-arcane element. Ochalea does not merit the importance of a kingdom. It's basically one large work farm to Alphatia. A source of food, slaves and exotic bric-a-brac to decorate their homes and palaces. It's a territorial holding the "rulership" of which passes from one noble house to another depending on who wins the imperial monopoly. The island is divided into several prefectures, each one the responsibility of an Alphatian house holding an imperial monopoly. The central government of the island is in Beitung (actually it moves) and is the responsibility of another monopoly holding house. The decadence and corruption of the Alphatian wizard overlords helps to completely turn the common populace against arcane magics. This isn't about all Alphatians (nobility and royalty) being evil. Just the majority of Alphatian ruling class in Ochalea have been corrupt, self-serving or too self-interested to care about their subjects. <-> Contact with Nithians is probably the final straw. Although Ochalean culture and records will not remember them as such it is the trade and conflict with them that cements the "no magic" element of Ochalean culture. <-> 600-590 BC The Thyatian/Hattian/Kerendan people, returning home from their Alphatian-imposed Davanian expulsion/exile raid the western coast of Ochalea. If any Alphatian wizard-lord cares they don't mount enough of a defense. <-> 1 AC to 20 AC - Yeras of Imperial Occupation and Rebellion <-> 20 AC - Valentia releases Ochalea from imperial bondage but the "gov't" of Ochalea, having already been purged by imperial collaborators, quickly does its best to confederate with Thyatis and soon has imperial troops stationed as peace keepers to "help suppress the Alphatian insurgents". (This is either with or without Valentia's knowledge - some Thyatian input here please.) <-> Next 900 years is the story of corruption, coups, rebellion, assassination, purges, rebirths and finally a cultural flowering and discovery of identity. <-> I think that other writers, in describing the history of nations surrounding the Sea of Dawn, could include ties to Ochalea. During the history, particularly following the two major invasions 770 BC and 1 AC, other nations would see exiles from the island nation. <-> I suspect Ochalean bureaucracy, scholarship and architecture would infiltrate Alphatia's "high culture". Ochalean martial practices would infect Thyatian military and possibly some fighting orders. Ochalean fighters would be interesting spectacle in the gladiatorial arenas and a good way to eliminate threats to authority. <-> The typically well educated Ochalean male would make excellent slave stock for any household in need of a literate or skilled servant. Teachers, book keepers, major domos, gardeners or chauffers to abuse the stereotype. ( I have an image of a Thyatian paladin dressed in green armour riding in a coach with an Ochalean version of Bruce Lee as his driver always saving the Thyatian's neck ) <-> Finally does anyone know of any other inhabitants prior to 3500BC-2500BC? Comments please. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 13:32:43 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Steven Carter wrote: > > <-> I need to place the origins of a Sino/Asiatic stone-to-bronze age > transitional culture partly related to the Ethengar people somewhere > on Skothar about 3500 BC. Any places I need to avoid or any localities > currently not occupied? Well, that's a bit of a problem, since there are Blackmoor and Thonia there at the time, as well as the Tangor Men in southern Skothar. > <->Sporadic contact with Taymoran Empire far to the north west after > 2500 BC. Possibly a few invasion attempts which continue to sour > Ochalean sentiments against arcane magic. (To what extent were the > Taymorans sea-faring?) Limited. I'd assume coastal navigation, but little or no oceanic navigation. > <-> Finally does anyone know of any other inhabitants prior to 3500BC-2500BC? Note that there are Lupins and Rakasta in Ochalea, and that Ogre-Magi where at some point in the history a major force -- slave holders, the Ogrish Chow Chow lupins where thralls to the Ogre Magi, then were freed with the help of Shar-Pei lupins and Foo Dogs (from Bruce Heard's article on lupins, see also my article on lupin history for tentative dates of Lupin colonization of Ochalea. Also, it is quite possible that the Skotharian Rakasta passed at some time during an westward migration. You might want to investigate the connection between ancient (M-austronesian) and modern (M-japanese) Rakastan languages, and the impact of the Ochalean language on them. In particular, I think the Rakastan presence on Ochalea was higher in the past, but these (Ochalean-speaking) Rakasta eventually moved out to Myoshima and/or other Rakastan regions. Also, there's the Tagh, M-Tibetan Sherkasta from Skothar whose language is probably the nearest relative of Ochalean. All in all, a tough problem ;) Bye, -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 04:41:37 -0700 From: DM Subject: Re: Tentative Belcadiz History agathokles wrote: << Nope. As we discussed over and over in the Italian MB, there's no way the Belcadiz language can be anything different from Spanish (and therefore Espa), if the setting is to maintain some internal coherence from the linguistic (and cultural) point of view.>> I beg to differ, and the reason why I sent the theory to the MML is precisely to hear other points of view. ;) Anyway, you have to reckon Giampaolo that we don't have ANYTHING fixed on the Belcadiz dialect. We don't have a canon vocabulary, a canon list of sentences in elvish, nothing. We just have their NAMES and some in-character speeches of Dona Carnelia in GAZ3, which contain some Spanish words ("duenna", "ola", ecc.). However, we don't know if the text is spoken in elvish to her students or in common (Thyatian?) or in whichever other language. I surmise Dona Carnelia speaks in Elven common (Belcadiz dialect) to her students and that the Spanish (Ispan) words she slips in are regularly used in the Belcadiz dialect. OTOH you suppose the WHOLE Belcadiz dialect IS ISPAN, but this would go against the formal classification of languages in the gazetteer, since it would then be listed as Ispan, not "Elvish (Belcadiz dialect)". Another hypothesis (Iulius Scaevola's latest one) that could be true is that they speak both Elvish (Belcadiz dialect) and Thyatian (Ispan dialect), so when she speaks in the GAZ to her pupils, Carnelia's in fact speaking Thyatian (Ispan dialect). But there is nothing in the canon sources which says that the elvish of the Belcadiz clan is the same language as Ispan. <> Quite the contrary! I need the ties between Ispans and Belcadiz because apart from possible linguistic similarities, we do know that their cultures ARE VERY MUCH ALIKE, so they must have interacted with one another for many centuries (think also of the elvish lifespan), thus blending the different civilizations into one. <> No, this is not mandatory. It is more likely (and easier) that a culture changes rather than a language changes when two civilizations merge or live close for so much time. << Moreover, it is the Belcadiz culture which is mostly derived from the Ispan and not the other way round>> there aren't proof of this. We just know the Belcadiz are flamenco elves, and the Ispans are the Spanish conquistadores, and that's it. You can say Ispans influenced the Belcadiz, I can say Belcadiz had some habits which the Ispans liked and learnt, but this is not a major point IMO. The fact is that the outcome is mutual and similar for both cultures. And if the Ispans were originally Kerendans, and I say that the Kerendans and Ylari and Elves mixed together to form the "Ispan Culture" I easily avoid the point altogether ^_^ <> And this is precisely what I do in my tentative history. However, by saying that the island is so far away and in such perilous conditions that the Thyatians don't find it profitable and don't colonise it massively, I avoid one of the major problems of the Belcadiz's history: their apparent secrecy. We can then have Ispans and Belcadiz living together and forming their culture during the last millennium, with Thyatis too bothered with Alphatia in Ylaruam and Isle of Dawn to divert precious resources to help the Kerendan/Ispan on the isle of Alvar. This also explains why technically inside the territories of Thyatis, no mention is made in the official products of the existence of Belcadiz elves until their coming to Glantri. << The first journey of the Belcadiz is probably fully underground -- like the Gentle Folk, only longer.>> I beg to differ. It is IMO impossible to fathom an underground trek of some 3000 miles for a group of elves, especially considering that they must have delved much deeper that Gentle Folk, since they must have traveled beyond the Sea of Dread, and especially DURING the earthquakes that created the Sunlit Sea and swallowed Taymor. To put it bluntly: it wouldn't have been the best time to go that way. ;) Anyway, I'm still open to other solutions. ^_^ DM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 04:52:42 -0700 From: DM Subject: Re: Tentative Belcadiz History On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 15:52:10 -0400, Chris Cherrington wrote: << So the Belcadeil being descendants of the Glantrian elves and interbred with the Meditor live closer to the Doulakki and befriend them.>> Just a quick note to tell you that I don't use Doulakki because they are IMHO redundant (we already have Traldars to fill that niche) and in contrast with canon material (which has Toralai tribes in the Thyatian mainland up to the arrival of Thyatians and Kerendans in 600 BC). ;) And btw, the Meditors (the pale elves!) were ALREADY trapped on the isles of Minrothad at the beginning of BC 1700. Do you suggest the Belcadiz were there too or that they remained in the Dymrak Woods (near Kerendas)? << Later on when Thyatians arrive, they befriend the Kerrendians that get influenced by the Alasani culture that develops into the Espa. This makes the Belcadiz language different than a dialect of Espa, as it has retained some grammar from the Doulakki. >> I fail to understand how Kerendans that live near the Belcadiz (as I think you've placed them in Vyalia region) can be influenced by Alasyians who OTOH live far away from here... It's like saying that people living in Texas have been influenced by those living in Washington state or in Michigan... :p <> ??? BIG UH??? Belcadiz DO HAVE a Tree of Life (check your GAZ3, two of the Belcadiz are Treekeepers, Dona Leontina and Dona Blanca), and Meditors DO WORSHIP CALITHA (it's official, check GAZ9 as well)! DM _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 15:03:46 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Tentative Belcadiz History DM wrote: > We just have their NAMES and some in-character speeches of Dona > Carnelia in GAZ3, which contain some Spanish words ("duenna", > "ola", ecc.). No, we also have some text in the adventure section. Of course, no text will ever be in something different from english. By this measure, you might infer that everyone on Mystara speaks english, they just have odd names. > OTOH you suppose the WHOLE Belcadiz dialect IS ISPAN, but this would > go against the formal classification of languages in the > gazetteer, since it would then be listed as Ispan, not "Elvish > (Belcadiz dialect)". Not necessarily, since in the Gazetteer there is no Ispan to speak of. > But there is nothing in the canon sources which says that the elvish > of the Belcadiz clan is the same language as Ispan. Except the fact that they use the same words. Since the language spoken by the Belcadiz cannot be english, we must extend what little we have of their language (and we never ever get an ``elvish'' word!), therefore I still hold to the position that their language must be M-Spanish. > Quite the contrary! I need the ties between Ispans and Belcadiz > because apart from possible linguistic similarities, we do know > that their cultures ARE VERY MUCH ALIKE, Not really, the Ispan are very religious while the Belcadiz are basically atheistic. Other than being quite aggressive and vengeful, there's nothing to link the Ispan and Belcadiz if you assume that the Belcadiz names are elvish. > No, this is not mandatory. It is more likely (and easier) that a > culture changes rather than a language changes when two > civilizations merge or live close for so much time. Actually, it is often the opposite. > there aren't proof of this. We just know the Belcadiz are flamenco > elves, and the Ispans are the Spanish conquistadores, and that's > it. Yes there are, if you value language coherence: Espa/Belcadiz is a ``Neo-Thyatian'' language, therefore it cannot come from the Elves. The Belcadiz is different from Alfheimer elvish, so it must have changed at some point. Since this change goes in the direction of Thyatian, it must have come from interaction with Thyatians. Assuming that this change simply happens by miracle, or that an entire people changes their naming conventions to adopt that of another people without also adopting their language and without leaving traces of the previous naming system (note that naming conventions are among the "persistent" features of language) is not what I would consider reasonable. > This also explains why technically inside the territories of Thyatis, > no mention is made in the official products of the existence of > Belcadiz elves until their coming to Glantri. It also ignores the fact that the Ispan are said to be part of the Thyatian Empire, and nothing tells us things have ever been different. > I beg to differ. It is IMO impossible to fathom an underground trek > of some 3000 miles for a group of elves, especially considering > that they must have delved much deeper that Gentle Folk, since they > must have traveled beyond the Sea of Dread, and especially DURING > the earthquakes that created the Sunlit Sea and swallowed Taymor. Ah, yes, Shattenalfen anyone? > To put it bluntly: it wouldn't have been the best time to go that > way. ;) Not if you go deep enough. Bye, -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 15:11:58 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Tentative Belcadiz History DM wrote: > > Just a quick note to tell you that I don't use > Doulakki because they are IMHO redundant (we already > have Traldars to fill that niche) and in contrast with > canon material (which has Toralai tribes in the > Thyatian mainland up to the arrival of Thyatians and > Kerendans in 600 BC). ;) Just to report both sides of the discussion, OTOH I do use the Doulakki because they're not really redundant if do not accept that Kerendans are a clone of the Milenians. In short, someone must found Cynidicea, and since Cynidicea is IMO not Byzantine, but at most hellenistic, it cannot be the Kerendans. Since the Traldars are no more by the time Cynidicea is founded, there must be some other M-greek nation (in the Biazzan region, most likely). BTW, I would consider the Toralai tribes not really acceptable as such, since the Neathar culture must have evolved in the millennia between their decline (when the tribes where moved to the HW) and 500 BC. > ??? BIG UH??? > Belcadiz DO HAVE a Tree of Life (check your GAZ3, two > of the Belcadiz are Treekeepers, Dona Leontina and > Dona Blanca), Which is another very odd thing, since they do not worship Ilsundal and cannot have Treekeepers, according to GAZ7. Bye, -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:34:24 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Tentative Belcadiz History I quickly just emailed an excerpt of the complete timeline, which can be found at http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/html/elvntime.html I would love for your input as well on that project. << Just a quick note to tell you that I don't use Doulakki because they are IMHO redundant (we already have Traldars to fill that niche) and in contrast with canon material (which has Toralai tribes in the Thyatian mainland up to the arrival of Thyatians and Kerendans in 600 BC). ;) And btw, the Meditors (the pale elves!) were ALREADY trapped on the isles of Minrothad at the beginning of BC 1700. Do you suggest the Belcadiz were there too or that they remained in the Dymrak Woods (near Kerendas)? >> Understandable for the use of a non-canon culture. I believe these little holes can be plugged in by anyone’s own culture. I wanted to lead into some cultural similarities of pre-Greek, Greek, and Kerendian being the Greek influenced Thyatian tribe. << I fail to understand how Kerendans that live near the Belcadiz (as I think you've placed them in Vyalia region) can be influenced by Alasyians who OTOH live far away from here... It's like saying that people living in Texas have been influenced by those living in Washington state or in Michigan... :p >> The tribes that would become the Vyalia, in my timeline, were separatists from Verdier and Meditor that had stayed with Ilsundal. Now if a new group of elves, like the Belcadeil, arrives, they would have been pushed further west or east. East would put them in direct contact with the Alasyian culture. I used this piece because I like Mishler’s work of the Ispan history, but I did not like the explanation he made of the Belcadiz. Having a group of elves that have been pushed out of one area and having to subsist on dealing with humans (Toralai, Doulakki, or ), would seem like a better reason to drop any elven heritage and adopt a new one that is called Flamenco. << ??? BIG UH??? Belcadiz DO HAVE a Tree of Life (check your GAZ3, two of the Belcadiz are Treekeepers, Dona Leontina and Dona Blanca), and Meditors DO WORSHIP CALITHA (it's official, check GAZ9 as well)! >> I will recheck the Belcadiz having a Tree of Life in Glantri. And yes I know that Meditors do worship Calitha. But the Meditors that stayed on the mainland didn’t, and they with the other Verdier and some Belcadeil, would all have to find their own way. Some became the Vyalia, which splintered again as well when Mealiden arrived with a new religion (Ilsundal and the Tree of Life), others survived by living in close proximity with humans. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 11:00:33 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Tentative Belcadiz History ============================================================ From: Giampaolo Agosta > ??? BIG UH??? > Belcadiz DO HAVE a Tree of Life (check your GAZ3, two > of the Belcadiz are Treekeepers, Dona Leontina and > Dona Blanca), Which is another very odd thing, since they do not worship Ilsundal and cannot have Treekeepers, according to GAZ7. ============================================================ Makes your wonder if the Belcadiz were able to find one of Ordana's original trees in their travels? I agree this does not make much sense to have an elven culture so alien to themselves to even worship nature in any guise. Who would give the Flamenco's a TOL? It would have to be a cutting from one of Mealiden's that was gifted to the Vyalia. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 21:45:29 -0700 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History --- Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > Note that there are Lupins and Rakasta in Ochalea, > and that Ogre-Magi where at some point in the history > a major force -- slave holders, the > Ogrish Chow Chow lupins where thralls to the Ogre > Magi, then were freed with the help of Shar-Pei > lupins and Foo Dogs (from Bruce Heard's article on > lupins, see also my article on lupin history for > tentative dates of Lupin colonization of Ochalea. Don't recall if I ever posted an updated version of my "Pateran Timeline" or not, but I revised it subsequent to my original post, and included an era of time in Ochalean history when the rakasta took over Ochalea and instituted several changes to the political and social climate. Basically, the way I had it, Ochalea was first more "japanese" in structure/culture (like Myoshima), then later "chinese". The Alphatian presence in Ochalea was directly related to the rakasta presence there, as the Alphatians came to the land under the guise of assisting the liberation of the Ochalean people, then (after they helped rid Ochalea of rakasta, largely) began to populate the island with their own people, and helped to relocate much of the native Ochalean populace. Again, though, this is just my version, and not based on anything canonical. > In particular, I think the Rakastan presence on > Ochalea was higher in the past, but these > (Ochalean-speaking) Rakasta eventually moved out to > Myoshima and/or other Rakastan regions. Yeah- that was what my version assumed as well. In particular, Myoshima was a colony of Ochalea (and there might be others on Mystara proper), which was the most notable surviving remnant of the rakasta-dominated island nation (and retains the Japanese-esque culture of the time period in which the nation formed). I think I had the timeline of rakasta domination c. 800-500 BC or thereabouts. Possibly as far back as 1000 BC, though. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 16 Oct 2004 to 18 Oct 2004 (#2004-223) ****************************************************************