Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 18 Oct 2004 to 19 Oct 2004 (#2004-224)
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Date: 20/10/2004, 18:00
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Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion

There are 27 messages totalling 1493 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

 1. Tentative Belcadiz History (7)
 2. Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History (4)
 3. Belcadiz Language (4)
 4. Belcadiz Language and the whole Belcadiz problem (3)
 5. Flaems (was Belcadiz Language) (5)
 6. Doulakki [was: Belcadiz] (3)
 7. Basical Ethnic and Linguistic Guidelines for Mystara (1 of 3)

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Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 2004 03:09:17 -0700
From:    DM <dekshari@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tentative Belcadiz History

agathokles wrote:

<<No, we also have some text in the adventure section.
Of course, no text will ever be in something different
from english. By this measure, you might infer that
everyone on Mystara speaks english, they just have odd
names.>>

Not at all Giampaolo. I already said that "in-game
English sentences" from sourcebooks are to be assumed
uttered in the common tongue of the person who is
speaking (or in any other different tongue when it's
explicitly stated).
In this case, however, we don't know if who's speaking
(a Belcadizan noble) is using Elvish (Belcadiz
dialect) or Common (Thyatian) or even Glantrian for
that matter (if such a language exists outside the
magical texts). Thereby using simple words here and
there doesn't mean she is speaking in Spanish, but
rather that she's reinforcing some concepts by using
Spanish words, which probably describe those terms
better in the speaker's view. So she might speak
Thyatian using Ispan words or speak Belcadiz elvish
with Ispan words here and there because they're
integrated in their language (much like we in Italian
use words like "PC, computer, hardware, garage, etc.."
instead of their Italian counterparts ;)).

<<Not necessarily, since in the Gazetteer there is no
Ispan to speak of.>>

How come then there is no mention of the Ispan dialect
in Glantri: Kingdom of Magic, which appeared AFTER Red
Steel (which detailed the Ispan/Espa tongue in the
Savage Coast)? ^_^

<< Except the fact that they use the same words. Since
the language spoken by the Belcadiz cannot be english,
we must extend what little we have of their language
(and we never ever get an ``elvish'' word!), therefore
I still hold to the position that their language must
be M-Spanish.>>

Just because they use a couple of Spanish words here
and there you imply they speak Spanish? Well, by this
implication, we (Italians) would then speak English,
French and Spanish too :p
No really Giampaolo, you've got so little to take as
basis for this assumption. I'd go with the idea they
speak Elvish with Ispan words here and there just as
it happens all around the world with English.

<< Not really, the Ispan are very religious while the
Belcadiz are basically atheistic.
Other than being quite aggressive and vengeful, here's
nothing to link the Ispan and Belcadiz if you assume
that the Belcadiz names are elvish.>>

It's the CHARACTER which is the same. They're touchy,
prideful, adventuresome, noble, haughty, have got
similar names and titles (don and dona), similar
passions (laces, wines, bullfights). You can't say
they're different because they've got different
religious attitudes while the rest of the national
character is so alike!
Besides Belcadiz have ALWAYS been a non-religious
people and Ispans are not overtly zealots: only
Narvaezans are so intolerant and so fixed with
religious beliefs among the Ispan people ;)

<< if you value language coherence: Espa/Belcadiz is a
``Neo-Thyatian'' language, therefore it cannot come
from the Elves.>>

Indeed, I do suppose it comes from a Kerendan-Ylari
mix and that it's mainly spoken by Ispans. Elves only
take few words here and there, and prolly a slight
different pronouciation of elven words too.

<< The Belcadiz is different from Alfheimer elvish, so
it must have changed at some point. Since this change
goes in the direction of Thyatian, it
must have come from interaction with Thyatians.>>

ehehe, so are the Callarii, Meditor and Vyalia
dialects, but they're STILL ELVEN TONGUES! Can't you
see the similarity? ;)

<< It also ignores the fact that the Ispan are said to
be part of the Thyatian Empire, and nothing tells us
things have ever been different.>>

No Giampaolo. My theory says they belonged to the
Thyatian empire but Thyatis didn't care for them
because they were too remote. And when Alvar sank into
the ocean (AC700-720) they flew back to Thyatian
mainland and tried to relocate there, so this makes
them a part of the Thyatian empire. I've been very
careful on this ;)


<<Ah, yes, Shattenalfen anyone?>>

Precisely: Schattenalfen went so deep they emerged in
the Hollow World! As the Icevale did!
The Gentle Folk emerged in the Five Shires, because
they didn't go so deep and prolly because they didn't
venture where the tunnels started shaking too much
(sea of dread's forming).
It is completely unlikely what you suggest for
Belcadiz, really. They would have traveled FAR MORE
THAN SCHATTENALFEN DID and emerged on the other side
of the World Shield to bypass the depths of the Sea of
Dread. ;)

DM

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Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 2004 03:20:19 -0700
From:    DM <dekshari@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tentative Belcadiz History

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 15:11:58 +0200,   Giampaolo Agosta
<agathokles@KATAMAIL.COM> wrote:

<< Just to report both sides of the discussion, OTOH I
do use the Doulakki because they're not really
redundant if do not accept that Kerendans are a clone
of the Milenians.
In short, someone must found Cynidicea, and since
Cynidicea is IMO not Byzantine, but at most
hellenistic, it cannot be the Kerendans.
Since the Traldars are no more by the time Cynidicea
is founded, there must be some other M-greek nation
(in the Biazzan region, most likely).>>

I haven not yet posted on the MML my theory on the
traldar migrations, but if you follow that, Traldar
people may be living between Vyalia and Toralai, and
they are forced to migrate northwards when the
Kerendans arrive in BC 600. Some stay and are absorbed
by Kerendans, others settle north of Thyatis, founding
Cynidicea on the Nithian border (between BC 590 and BC
550).

<<BTW, I would consider the Toralai tribes not really
acceptable as such, since the Neathar culture must
have evolved in the millennia between their decline
(when the tribes where moved to the HW) and 500 BC.>>

However they are there by canon sources (HW), and
their culture, as primitive as it is, can be compared
to the Atruaghin clans, which still live in AC 1000 as
they did a thousand years ago!

<< Which is another very odd thing, since they do not
worship Ilsundal and cannot have Treekeepers,
according to GAZ7.>>

I beg your pardon, but what has "GAZ 7, The Northern
Reaches" to do with the Belcadiz and GAZ3?? I fail to
see the connection...
And in case you meant GAZ3, there is nowhere written
there that Belcadiz DO NOT WORSHIP ILSUNDAL and CANNOT
HAVE TREEKEEPERS. On the contrary, you have the two
Belcadiz Treekeepers and mention of a ToL at the end
of the Belcadiz family column (in the NPCs section).
^_^

DM






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Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 2004 07:29:30 -0300
From:    Steven Carter <steven.f.carter@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 21:45:29 -0700, Andrew Theisen <jsmill@wans.net> wrote:
> --- Giampaolo Agosta <agathokles@KATAMAIL.COM> wrote:
> Don't recall if I ever posted an updated version of my
> "Pateran Timeline" or not, but I revised it subsequent

I found at least one version of that doc in the Vaults. Alphatian
domination began about 600 BC I think. However there is another doc by
another creator that dates Alphatian domination to about 770 BC.

> The Alphatian presence in Ochalea was directly related
> to the rakasta presence there, as the Alphatians came
> to the land under the guise of assisting the
> liberation of the Ochalean people, then (after they
> helped rid Ochalea of rakasta, largely) began to
> populate the island with their own people, and helped
> to relocate much of the native Ochalean populace.

The scenario I like would have the fiercer breed of rakasta being a
result of an Alphatian breeding project. The rakasta would be left on
Ochalea for a few centuries to soften up the indigenous populace. Then
Alphatia would come along to help clean up the mess and begin an
expulsion of the locals as well as the rakasta.

> Again, though, this is just my version, and not based
> on anything canonical.

> > In particular, I think the Rakastan presence on
> > Ochalea was higher in the past, but these
> > (Ochalean-speaking) Rakasta eventually moved out to
> > Myoshima and/or other Rakastan regions.
> Yeah- that was what my version assumed as well. In
> particular, Myoshima was a colony of Ochalea (and
> ...
> rakasta-dominated island nation (and retains the
> Japanese-esque culture of the time period in which the
> nation formed).

As for the cultural aspects of the original Ochalean culture I'm
working on scenarios that have three or four Asian cultures
represented by different regional clan structures. I think it's clear
that Beitung should be Chinese. But national capitals move and get
renamed. At the start of the Rakasta domination the capital could have
been in a prefecture controlled by a Japanese-inspired clan. An
Alphatian governor would move the capital to the north east because
it's closer to Alphatia.

Historically I see the rakasta domination working much like various
barbarian invasions in China and Korea. Barbarians invade. Barbarians
are culturally assimilated. Barbarian dynasty becomes old and weak.
Barbarian dynasty falls. The culture keeps going, changed but still
characteristic of the native populace.

If the Alphatians expelled the indigenous people I can see them doing
it in order to weaken the chance of rebellion by watering down the
population. Those relocated to other lands would be replaced with the
mundane copper-skinned Alphatian people. However I don't think it
would be a rapid process.

Also, the Ochalean natives wouldn't just be sent to one or a handful
of places. Thousands would wind up in what are essentially slave
markets. A wizard-lord's major domo would buy a few girls for maids
here, a few gardeners there, a sword master for the house army, an old
priest to entertain with exotic philosophy and perhaps a few dozen
commoners for labour, farming, etc. A process that goes on for
centuries creating an Ochalean diaspora first within Alphatia proper
and its holdings, then all nations it deals with.

I know everyone has their own versions and own campaigns. I just like
to try to get everything meshed together.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 2004 03:38:02 -0700
From:    DM <dekshari@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tentative Belcadiz History

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:34:24 -0400,  Chris Cherrington
<inour12@BELLSOUTH.NET> wrote:

<<I quickly just emailed an excerpt of the complete
timeline, which can be found at
http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/html/elvntime.html
I would love for your input as well on that project.>>

On a first glimpse, you elaborate very much on areas
that have already been covered, with different results
(two major things that I noticed: Meditors serving the
Nithians and Meditors sailing from Evergrun alone?
This conflicts with all canon sources in GAZ5, GAZ9
and CoM...)
I'll read it more thoroughly and give you my
impressions later ;)

<< Understandable for the use of a non-canon culture.
I believe these little holes can be plugged in by
anyone’s own culture.  I wanted to lead into some
cultural similarities of pre-Greek, Greek, and
Kerendian being the Greek influenced Thyatian tribe.>>

for the Greek influence on the Kerendans, you can use
Milenians (simply put, Kerendans were slaves of the
Milenians for a longer period and retained more of
their influence) and Traldar (once they settle in
Thyatian mainland, see my other post).

<< The tribes that would become the Vyalia, in my
timeline, were separatists from Verdier and Meditor
that had stayed with Ilsundal.>>

Nope. Vyalia were part of the group that split from
Ilsundal's migration and settled in that part of the
KW, on the northern fringes of Taymor (around BC
2200). When Taymor was swallowed by the sea and the
islands of Ierendi and Minrothad were created (BC
1700), stranding there one of the Minrothad clans (I
don't recall if it was the Verdiers or Meditors), some
elves left on Brun decided to join their brethren and
sailed for the Minrothad isles . The others stayed in
the Dymrak region: the Vyalia.
By this time, all these elves didn't have a clan
relic, and the faith of Ordana was dwindling at best.

Later the Meditor discovered the Pearl of Calitha,
while the Verdiers discovered the Carven Oak, a gift
of Ordana (Thendara). Only the Vyalia had nothing, but
the situation changed when the elves of Mealiden
arrived in BC 800. They settled among the Vyalia, gave
them one of the 9 original ToLs seedlings to
proselitize and to thank them for the hospitality and
so the Vyalia became followers of Ilsundal. :)

<<  Now if a new group of elves, like the Belcadeil,
arrives, they would have been pushed further west or
east.  East would put them in direct contact with the
Alasyian culture. >>

And when do you think exactly they'd have come?
And how come no mention of them in any of the canon
historical references, if they lived in a region so
important like Thyatis?

More questions to ponder... ;)
I hope to find the time to post soon the chronology of
the elves I compiled a while ago, so we can compare it
with yours, Chris :)

DM



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Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:34:05 +0200
From:    Giampaolo Agosta <agathokles@KATAMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tentative Belcadiz History

DM wrote:

>
> In this case, however, we don't know if who's speaking
> (a Belcadizan noble) is using Elvish (Belcadiz
> dialect) or Common (Thyatian) or even Glantrian for
> that matter (if such a language exists outside the
> magical texts). Thereby using simple words here and
> there doesn't mean she is speaking in Spanish, but
> rather that she's reinforcing some concepts by using
> Spanish words, which probably describe those terms
> better in the speaker's view.

This still doesn't prove that Belcadiz speak Elvish.
OTOH, it proves a deep familiarity that the speaker has with M-Spanish,
which must be due to him/her being a native speaker of M-Spanish.
Moreover, your reference to use of english words in italian is not
relevant, because we're not talking of technical words, but everyday
words which you wouldn't borrow from english.
-- 

    Giampaolo Agosta

http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:23:27 +0200
From:    Francesco Defferrari <sturm@LIBERO.IT>
Subject: Re: Tentative Belcadiz History

DM wrote:
So she might speak
> Thyatian using Ispan words or speak Belcadiz elvish
> with Ispan words here and there because they're
> integrated in their language (much like we in Italian
> use words like "PC, computer, hardware, garage, etc.."
> instead of their Italian counterparts ;)).

I have to say that DM is convincing me of his ideas, even I always thought
of Belcadiz as more or less Spanish in the past. The idea of Belcadizian as
Elvish with spanish influences is better, IMO, because no other elven people
in Mystara has ever changed its language to start speaking an human
language, AFAIK. Why should they start to speak Ispan BTW? Elves
traditionally are very proud of their language, and I see no reason why the
Belcadiz shouldn't have been. Nor they were ever military defeated or
assimilated in any way in the Savage Coast, according to canon. And
according to canon, they were politically united to the Erewan for a time,
and at the beginning the Belcadiz welcomed the Erewan without dificulties,
so probably they spoke the same language and recognized to have a common
heritage. BTW I think that "belcadizian" elves of the Savage Coast still
speak elven, and this should be canon-supported (because elvish is listed as
language in Red Steel supplements). Just my thinking on the matter...
bye
Francesco

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 2004 09:06:52 -0400
From:    Chris Cherrington <inour12@BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: Re: Tentative Belcadiz History

============================================================
From: DM <dekshari@YAHOO.COM>

<<On a first glimpse, you elaborate very much on areas
that have already been covered, with different results
(two major things that I noticed: Meditors serving the
Nithians and Meditors sailing from Evergrun alone?
This conflicts with all canon sources in GAZ5, GAZ9
and CoM...)
I'll read it more thoroughly and give you my
impressions later ;) >>

It does not conflict, it gives flavor.  I am filling in the blanks ;-)
Who were the Vyalia and why did they leave Ilsundal?  Then many years later why do half of them convert to his religion and the other half sort of hide away in mystery?  Where did all 9 Trees of Life reside today from Mealiden?  I used my DM prerogative to fill in the blanks.  Much like what you are doing with the island of Alvar.  The other burning question was if the Meditor did not do a great many things alone (but always close to their cousins the Verdier), how can they be so different in appearances and abilities?  Why does Mealiden leave his sponsor’s home to find his own, and take so many elves, and ignore the effects of Moorcroft?  Of course it is easy to give a different history for the elves, because they are long lived, and they have excellent records, but they don’t have great tales of their past.  So I reinvented them into a LOTR type of caretakers and used them to help quell the Nithian upstarts to prevent another GROF.  Of course what is their reward?  They to
o are made to forget everything Nithian, which is also the reason why they came.  A major side effect, and most certainly an immortal or two thought of it first, now they are stuck and have to stay and be silent in their memories of their tasks to watch over these hot-headed and deadly potential humans.

<<for the Greek influence on the Kerendans, you can use
Milenians (simply put, Kerendans were slaves of the
Milenians for a longer period and retained more of
their influence) and Traldar (once they settle in
Thyatian mainland, see my other post). >>

Yes, I do use Kerendans as the more Greek of the Thyatians, they had more contact with the Milenians, and I use the Doulakii as well.  When the three tribes come back, many of the Kerendans had a lot in common with the Doulakii and they assimilated very well.  This helped the early Thyatians conquer a lot of ground very rapidly.  IMO if the other culture there was still Torlai, they Thyatians would have had a harder time expending energies by conquering by force.

<< Nope. Vyalia were part of the group that split from
Ilsundal's migration and settled in that part of the
KW, on the northern fringes of Taymor (around BC
2200). When Taymor was swallowed by the sea and the
islands of Ierendi and Minrothad were created (BC
1700), stranding there one of the Minrothad clans (I
don't recall if it was the Verdiers or Meditors), some
elves left on Brun decided to join their brethren and
sailed for the Minrothad isles . The others stayed in
the Dymrak region: the Vyalia.
By this time, all these elves didn't have a clan
relic, and the faith of Ordana was dwindling at best.

Later the Meditor discovered the Pearl of Calitha,
while the Verdiers discovered the Carven Oak, a gift
of Ordana (Thendara). Only the Vyalia had nothing, but
the situation changed when the elves of Mealiden
arrived in BC 800. They settled among the Vyalia, gave
them one of the 9 original ToLs seedlings to
proselitize and to thank them for the hospitality and
so the Vyalia became followers of Ilsundal. :) >>

Yep, that’s all in my timeline.  I just gave a reason why some would split from Ilsundal, and travel to parts near another splintered group.  Many people also confuse the clans, Verdier had to build ships to get to their cousins, but it was the Meditor that was the seafaring race of elf.  The Meditors would not have been so far inland, that is why the Verdier built ships to live closer to their cousins.  Also, it would be fair to say they still liked the Meditor more than the Vyalia, and they wanted to get away from the Vyalia now that their big brothers where on an island without them.  :-p

<<  And when do you think exactly they'd have come?
And how come no mention of them in any of the canon
historical references, if they lived in a region so
important like Thyatis?  >>

Particularly when we have this Ispan culture amongst the Thyatian Three, Kerendan, Thyatian, and Hattian.  Where was the Ispan homeland?  The languages are supposed to have commonality to each other as well, so Ispans are not like Nuari or Ochalean, they are citizens, but with much different languages.  I left the Belcadiz open in my timeline, mainly because I knew some would want them in different areas or have a more noble history.  To me, they are just like the Ispans, so they had to be part of their history.  When they left their elven culture to be like the Ispans, they sundered themselves from the elven history tree.  They are not portrayed like the Shadowelves, and many may consider them as a bunch of half-elves, having the darker skin like the humans they lived with.  They left wherever to go back and claim the Alvar they left as the Belcadeil.  This was the only place they can claim as their own and be proud of.  No one wrote them in their histories, as they subsist
ed for far to long, and were just counted amongst the normal populations.

<< More questions to ponder... ;)
I hope to find the time to post soon the chronology of
the elves I compiled a while ago, so we can compare it
with yours, Chris :) >>

Yes, my timeline is still being worked on.  Many people gave me other names for Clans to use, other elves still out in the world, and even in my campaign, I had more clans in the Sylvan Realm than the one in CM7.  With the WotI and the events of the Shadowelves, I would imagine all the places the Alfheim Elves settled are only temporary, eventually they will decide to move west to the Sylvan Realm and reclaim it as their own.  Far from Shadow, far from humans, and away from quarreling immortals on the fate of one nation’s attempt to better the world by magic.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:39:01 +0200
From:    Giampaolo Agosta <agathokles@KATAMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tentative Belcadiz History

DM wrote:

>
> However they are there by canon sources (HW), and

I could not care the less. If canon conflicts with itself, I'm going to choose the most likely solution.

> their culture, as primitive as it is, can be compared
> to the Atruaghin clans, which still live in AC 1000 as
> they did a thousand years ago!

That's a Spell of Preservation-like effect. OTOH, it is clearly said in that same canon that the Neathar culture was *rapidly evolving*.
Now, if ``rapidly evolving'' means that after a millennium they can still be recognizable as Neathar...

> I beg your pardon, but what has "GAZ 7, The Northern
> Reaches" to do with the Belcadiz and GAZ3?? I fail to
> see the connection...

Sorry, it was GAZ5, which explicitly says that you *cannot* become a Treekeeper in Glantri.
-- 

    Giampaolo Agosta

http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 2004 09:44:57 -0400
From:    Chris Cherrington <inour12@BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: Belcadiz Language

The short and sweet version of some fatal flaws of Belcadiz being from the Savage Coast and influenced by Ispan is this:

In 150 AC: Thyatians begin colonizing the Ylari on the southeastern coastal plain and the foothills of the Altan Tepes range in Ylaruam.
>> This is the area Ispan will develop, and I, following Mishler, fleshed out the Thyatians  as Kerendan.<<
730 AC: Settlers come to Glantri, including fair elves (descendants of the elves who fled the area in 1700 BC) and humans from Traladara and Thyatian colonies in Ylaruam. Frictions begin between the Flaems and settlers.
>> Here is a major contradiction, as many say the Belcadiz are not fair skinned.  Now if the elves came with Thyatian colonists from Ylari that would put a large Ispan culture of not only elves, but humans as well.  The Traladara we know will become the Boldavi.  So maybe the common tongue of Glantri is not Thyatian Proper, but Ispan?  <<
900 AC is when Thyatians, the Ispans, start to colonize the Savage Coast.  There Espa and Verdan develops.
>> So maybe by now, we can say Caurenze develops by being Ispan and influenced by Flaemish and French? <<

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:12:04 +0200
From:    Giampaolo Agosta <agathokles@KATAMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Belcadiz Language

Chris Cherrington wrote:

> Here is a major contradiction, as many say the Belcadiz are not fair skinned.

They are fair skinned, compared to the Flaems!

> > 900 AC is when Thyatians, the Ispans, start to colonize the Savage Coast.  There Espa and Verdan develops.
>
> So maybe by now, we can say Caurenze develops by being Ispan and influenced by Flaemish and French? <<

Not likely: there are no Ispans in Glantri, except the Belcadiz.
Otherwise, why would the origins of the Belcadiz be mysterious if they
were simply the same as the Caurenzans?
Moreover, it is far more likely that the Caurenzans descend from
Thyatians than from Ispans.
The Thyatian families of Caurenze and Glantri are unlikely to have
originally been Ispan-speakers -- otherwise people like Alexander
Glantri would have been named accordingly.

This same point applies to the Belcadiz speaking Elvish: why should they
take names in Ispan, if then they do not speak it? I can understand that
they may be fashionable, but to the point that no other names are used?
Consider that people like the Marquis de Satolas are several centuries
old, yet they do not have elvish names! Therefore, I would say that they
must be native speakers of Ispan, and must have been speaking Ispan or
the like for the last millennium, more or less.

As for people of the Savage Coast, we know that elvish is used, but we
also know that it is common *only* in Torreon (and Eusdria, IIRC).
Elsewhere, we are told that the demihumans do not receive racial
languages as native. The only elven character fully detailed (Gloriana
de Rondalla) speaks elvish, but *not* as a native language (and her
family's from Torreon)!
I would assume the same applies for Belcadiz elves -- they may well
speak elvish, if they learn it from a Erewan elf, but their native
language is M-Spanish.
-- 

    Giampaolo Agosta

http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:14:14 -0400
From:    Chris Cherrington <inour12@BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: Re: Belcadiz Language

Some more thoughts on the Belcadiz being fair skinned…
The top women of the family are pretty high in the circle of witchcraft, a craft that robs your charisma.  Yet they are portrayed as exotic and dark skinned.  It must be all that make up caked on to hide their true charisma.
8-b…|

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 2004 11:09:22 -0400
From:    Chris Cherrington <inour12@BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: Re: Belcadiz Language

============================================================
From: Giampaolo Agosta <agathokles@KATAMAIL.COM>
============================================================
The elves of the Savage Coast are the best example for the use of Belcadiz being Ispan.  Elves from this area lost all identity to being elven, including their language.  Further west, we have the nations of Robrenn and Eusdria.  Both of them influenced by elves, and their languages are common to eachother, with Eusdrian having more elvish influence.  But the elves themselves don’t speak elvish anymore.  The Ispan cultures of the Savage Coast are only 100 years old, yet they developed into Espa and Verdan in a very short time phonetically.  The elves they encountered are more readily to accept the Ispan language than their own.  Maybe Ispan had some earlier influence from elvish, possibly taking in Belcadeil root words?  If we surmise that the Belcadeil had been living in the area of Thyatis since 1700 BC, they may have had more influence to the origin of Ispan than the Ylari or Kerendan.
Now back to Glantri and the Thyatians coming in.  They left the Ylari area because it was getting harder to control the populace.  The Emperor could have been losing control for a while, and started to install more Hattian or Thyatian true bloods to control the populace, leading a large Ispan populace.  Leaders that stayed were probably killed.  Leaders that were well liked by most of the populace probably invited the populace to colonize a new area.   These leaders kept their family names and heritage, but eventually pick up the language franca of the area, which now also had Flaems, Traladaran, and French in future years, the leaders may have even added more Thyatian back into the language as well, as that was the language of the law.  Until then, they had names like Alexander Glantri.  The elves on the other hand, kept their Ispan unadulterated in the new land, and may have changed it to be more exotic, especially since there was a real elven presence from the Erewan Clan
, and they were nothing like them.  They also wanted to differentiate themselves from all these Thyatians with Ispan servants, so they exploited the fact that they originated from this area so many years ago (and would not associate themselves as culturally the same, for they would be like the servants).  Soon they re-invented themselves as an arrogant and proud race of Elves, with a dark and mysterious past.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:13:27 +0200
From:    Francesco Defferrari <sturm@LIBERO.IT>
Subject: Re: Belcadiz Language and the whole Belcadiz problem

Giampaolo Agosta wrote:
> As for people of the Savage Coast, we know that elvish is used, but we
> also know that it is common *only* in Torreon (and Eusdria, IIRC).
> Elsewhere, we are told that the demihumans do not receive racial
> languages as native. The only elven character fully detailed (Gloriana
> de Rondalla) speaks elvish, but *not* as a native language (and her
> family's from Torreon)!
> I would assume the same applies for Belcadiz elves -- they may well
> speak elvish, if they learn it from a Erewan elf, but their native
> language is M-Spanish.

Mmm I cannot really dismiss your argument nor those of DM, maybe the best
compromise should be that Belcadiz elves speak both elven and spanish as
their native languages. Something like imperial citizens in the provinces of
the late roman empire, that probably spoke both the official imperial latin
and their vulgar language.
But Chris rightly emphasized a fatal contradiction about the whole Ispan
matter: Belcadiz elves cannot be from the Savage coast according to canon,
and so the only way out from this mess is to assume that among the thyatian
colonist of 730 ac there were both thyatian and ispan speaking ones, and
ispan speaking elves too. Obviously this bring more contradictions, because
why those ispan humans and elves were never mentioned before the savage
coast supplements? the Belcadiz were simply Vyalia elves from Thyatis? and
where are gone now the ispan-speaking humans of Glantri?
No way out. Someone wrote a good timeline about Belcadiz being from the
Savage coast around 100 AC, but they should not speak Ispan then, because
where they could have met ispan people? :-)
When I first bought and read GAZ3 I simply assumed that M-spanish was
darokian (because I already owned the Darokin gazeeter, where people often
dress as XVI century spanish) and so that the Belcadiz spoke the same
language as darokians. Maybe Ispan were the most of the thyatian settlers
and the belcadiz learned their language trading with them when they come to
Glantri in 730 AC, indeed they always lived near to Darokin.
Later, the Ispan people from Thyatis went to the Savage Baronies, and the
other "belcadiz" elves of the Savage Coast learned M-spanish too. Not so
incredible if you think that the Belcadiz of Glantri could have reported
about the Savage Coast to the darokian, and the darokians to their ispan
brothers in Thyatis. Similar things happened in RW history.
I don't see many other practicable solutions to all this language and
cultural problem :-)
bye
Francesco

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:46:24 +0200
From:    Giampaolo Agosta <agathokles@KATAMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Belcadiz Language and the whole Belcadiz problem

Francesco Defferrari wrote:

> Mmm I cannot really dismiss your argument nor those of DM, maybe the best
> compromise should be that Belcadiz elves speak both elven and spanish as
> their native languages. Something like imperial citizens in the provinces of
> the late roman empire, that probably spoke both the official imperial latin
> and their vulgar language.

This would be possible if Thyatian was M-Spanish, which it is not. OTOH, if you assume that Belcadiz could have adopted Ispan from the Ispans, then there's no real reason to have them cling to Elvish -- since they actually do not use it, as far as we know.

> But Chris rightly emphasized a fatal contradiction about the whole Ispan
> matter: Belcadiz elves cannot be from the Savage coast according to canon,
> and so the only way out from this mess is to assume that among the thyatian
> colonist of 730 ac there were both thyatian and ispan speaking ones, and
> ispan speaking elves too.

I don't really catch this point. Sure the Belcadiz are not from the Coast, they're, most likely, from Thyatis.
They can't be from the SC, but then neither the Ispans are from the SC -- they're from Thyatis.
If we assume a common origin, it should be from Thyatis and not from Glantri -- since the Belcadiz already had Ispan names when they arrived (had they changed their names, someone would have noticed!)


> Obviously this bring more contradictions, because
> why those ispan humans and elves were never mentioned before the savage
> coast supplements?

Because no one had them in mind at the time ;)
No one said there were Lupins in the KW before the DM article as well, for example.

Bye,
-- 

    Giampaolo Agosta

http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 2004 12:07:07 -0400
From:    Chris Cherrington <inour12@BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: Re: Belcadiz Language and the whole Belcadiz problem

============================================================
From: Francesco Defferrari <sturm@LIBERO.IT>

>> Mmm I cannot really dismiss your argument nor those of DM, maybe the best
compromise should be that Belcadiz elves speak both elven and spanish as
their native languages. Something like imperial citizens in the provinces of
the late roman empire, that probably spoke both the official imperial latin
and their vulgar language. <<
This is what I am using to explain why Thyatians in Glantri don’t sound Ispan, and the new colonists will still have to live by the Thyatian law written in Thyatian Proper.

>> But Chris rightly emphasized a fatal contradiction about the whole Ispan
matter: Belcadiz elves cannot be from the Savage coast according to canon,<<
Thank you.

>> When I first bought and read GAZ3 I simply assumed that M-spanish was
darokian (because I already owned the Darokin gazeeter, where people often
dress as XVI century spanish) and so that the Belcadiz spoke the same
language as darokians. Maybe Ispan were the most of the thyatian settlers
and the belcadiz learned their language trading with them when they come to
Glantri in 730 AC, indeed they always lived near to Darokin.
Later, the Ispan people from Thyatis went to the Savage Baronies, and the
other "belcadiz" elves of the Savage Coast learned M-spanish too. Not so
incredible if you think that the Belcadiz of Glantri could have reported
about the Savage Coast to the darokian, and the darokians to their ispan
brothers in Thyatis. Similar things happened in RW history. <<

That is were I placed Mishler’s Amencerian into the picture, explaining the Darokin Common and how it relates to Caurenze, Ispan, Thyatian, Slag, and Ylari.  Although my version is much different than his, but it seems we have come along a common thread of thought in how Darokin is pretty influential in some ways for language.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:05:09 -0400
From:    Chris Cherrington <inour12@BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: Flaems (was Belcadiz Language)

============================================================
From: Giampaolo Agosta <agathokles@KATAMAIL.COM>

They are fair skinned, compared to the Flaems!

============================================================
I always thought the Flaems were ghostly white with red hair, just like my Irish/German mom.  So if the Belcadiz are fair compared to the Flaems, what skin color are the Flaems?

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:53:12 -0400
From:    Chris Cherrington <inour12@BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: Re: Flaems (was Belcadiz Language)

Since we are on the subject, what skin color do you have the Alphers?  Cypric decended I always assumed was coppery skin toned, but Alphers I always assumed were so pale, they looked blue.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 2004 20:08:32 +0200
From:    Havard Faanes <havardfaa@YAHOO.NO>
Subject: Re: Flaems (was Belcadiz Language)

--- Chris Cherrington <inour12@BELLSOUTH.NET> wrote:

> I always thought the Flaems were ghostly white with
> red hair, just like my Irish/German mom.  So if the
> Belcadiz are fair compared to the Flaems, what skin
> color are the Flaems?

I don't think the Flaems are supposed to be
particularly dark skinned. Sorry, I sort of dropped
out of the Belcadiz discussion (too confusing), but
the Belcadiz are specifically described to be dark
skinned under the Alhambra entry. The Ellerovyn are
the fair skinned elves.

Håvard

=====
***
Håvard R. Faanes
www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:33:05 -0300
From:    Steven Carter <steven.f.carter@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History

Well, I tend to think Skothar is big enough. I came up with the
premise that the Ochalean population descended from Peshwan AND
Afridhi after reading the ethnographic history article you contributed
to.

However it seems that after reading a lot of articles noone knows for
sure where Blackmoor was really located. In fact from what I gather
that's not really an argument that has to or even should be revisited.
If I'm mistaken please enlighten me. :D

I'm content to say that a group of Peshwa and a group of discontented
Afridhi got together before they were wiped out/assimilate, hid
somewhere west of the major power of the day and were lucky enough to
make their way toward present-day Ochalea. Of course this puts them
travelling through the Oltec Savages lands (I guess).

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 13:32:43 +0200, Giampaolo Agosta
<agathokles@katamail.com> wrote:
> Steven Carter wrote:
> > <-> I need to place the origins of a Sino/Asiatic stone-to-bronze age
> > transitional culture partly related to the Ethengar people somewhere
> > on Skothar about 3500 BC. Any places I need to avoid or any localities
> > currently not occupied?
>
> Well, that's a bit of a problem, since there are Blackmoor and Thonia there at the time, as well as the Tangor Men in southern Skothar.

> Also, it is quite possible that the Skotharian Rakasta passed at some
> time during an westward migration.
> You might want to investigate the connection between ancient
> (M-austronesian) and modern (M-japanese) Rakastan languages...
> ...
> Also, there's the Tagh, M-Tibetan Sherkasta from Skothar whose language
> is probably the nearest relative of Ochalean. All in all, a tough problem ;)
> Bye, Giampaolo Agosta
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:46:07 -0400
From:    Chris Cherrington <inour12@BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: Re: Flaems (was Belcadiz Language)

============================================================
From: Havard Faanes <havardfaa@YAHOO.NO>

I don't think the Flaems are supposed to be
particularly dark skinned. Sorry, I sort of dropped
out of the Belcadiz discussion (too confusing), but
the Belcadiz are specifically described to be dark
skinned under the Alhambra entry. The Ellerovyn are
the fair skinned elves.
============================================================
The Ellerovyn are related to the Alfheim elves.  So they particualy can't lay claim to have originally have been from Glantri.  The timeline describes the Belcadiz as fair skinned, at least when they arrived to Glantri.  Maybe getting them out of the Ylari sun caused them not to be sun-bleached anymore?  ;-)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:37:37 +0200
From:    la Volpe <iuliusscaevola@YAHOO.IT>
Subject: Doulakki [was: Belcadiz]

> I haven not yet posted on the MML my theory on the
> traldar migrations, but if you follow that, Traldar
> people may be living between Vyalia and Toralai, and
> they are forced to migrate northwards when the
> Kerendans arrive in BC 600. Some stay and are
> absorbed
> by Kerendans, others settle north of Thyatis,
> founding
> Cynidicea on the Nithian border (between BC 590 and
> BC
> 550).

And what if I wanted to call these Traldar of western
Thyatis "Doulakki"?

8-)

Iulius Sergius Scaevola
Captain of the XXth Cohort
Port Lucinius, Thyatis



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------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:45:51 +0200
From:    la Volpe <iuliusscaevola@YAHOO.IT>
Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History

I am working on a gargantuan project of human
etnography on Mystara, that has become a "complete
etnographic and linguistic" project.

If you wait some minutes, I'll send a complete
guideline to my ideas on the setting.

Take a look!

Comments welcome.

Iulius Sergius Scaevola
Captain of the XXth Cohort
Port Lucinius, Thyatis



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------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:55:49 +0200
From:    Giampaolo Agosta <agathokles@KATAMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Flaems (was Belcadiz Language)

Chris Cherrington ha scritto:
> ============================================================
> From: Giampaolo Agosta <agathokles@KATAMAIL.COM>
>
> They are fair skinned, compared to the Flaems!
>
> ============================================================
> I always thought the Flaems were ghostly white with red hair, just like my Irish/German mom.  So if the Belcadiz are fair compared to the Flaems, what skin color are the Flaems?

They're basically Common Alphatians, therefore copper-skinned with red
hair. Even though they culturally match the RW Dutch, they are still of
Cypric background.

Alphatians in general can either be of the Cypric (copper skinned) or
Pure Alphatian (pale skin with an hint of blue, dark hair), like
Volospin and family.

GP

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 2004 23:09:57 +0200
From:    Giampaolo Agosta <agathokles@KATAMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Doulakki [was: Belcadiz]

la Volpe ha scritto:
>
> And what if I wanted to call these Traldar of western
> Thyatis "Doulakki"?

Ah! Good one. Indeed, these ``surviving Traldar'' are exactly the same
as our Doulakki, except that DM seems to prefer the use of confusing
names :oP

       GP

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 2004 23:22:49 +0200
From:    Giampaolo Agosta <agathokles@KATAMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Doulakki [was: Belcadiz]

la Volpe ha scritto:
>
> And what if I wanted to call these Traldar of western
> Thyatis "Doulakki"?

BTW, a quick look at the Traldar and Doulakki.

IMO, there are three main ``Trantalian'' (see Giulio's ethnografic
history) historical branches.
Originally, the Trantalian lived in Thyatis (east of the Vyalia lands).
When the Nithian Empire started expanding beyond the valley of the
Nithia river, these ``Neathar'' were pushed west, and partially enslaved.

Then, a Nithian colonial expedition brought to Darokin and Traladara a
large number of Trantalian slaves. Due to adverse conditions, the
Nithian colony failed, and the Nithian overlords were absorbed in the
larger Trantalian population. These, of course, were the Traldar.

An early migration (possibly fugitive slaves) brought a group of
Trantalians to Athenos. The Athenos people later founded Akorros (and
perhaps other outposts), which was then destroyed by Wogar's Tribes.
In modern times, Athenos was one of the centres of human population in
Darokin, contributing to the foundation of Dolos, Akorros, and Ardelphia.

The last Trantalian group never moved from Thyatis. They were conquered
by the Nithians, but maintained a degree of cultural and political
independence during all of the Nithian age, which allowed them to
survive the fall of the Nithian Empire. These Trantalians I call
Doulakki, and I assume they were later pushed out of Thyatis by the
Kerendans, and moved on to found Cynidicea, Selenica and Nemiston.
There's a chance that also Trikelios and Ekto are Doulakki rather than
Milenian colonies (this is appropriate, since they are in close contact
with Thothia).

BTW, the last major human group of Darokin is composed of Antalians and
Dunharians (M-Celts), who IMO arrived in Darokin after 1000 BC, and
settled in the area of Favaro. I generally call these ``Eastwind''.

Bye,
       GP

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Oct 2004 01:11:51 +0200
From:    la Volpe <iuliusscaevola@YAHOO.IT>
Subject: Basical Ethnic and Linguistic Guidelines for Mystara (1 of 3)

BASICAL ETHNIC AND LINGUISTIC GUIDELINES FOR MYSTARA

1. Introduction
These guidelines are based on the Earth's own
languages, linguistic theories and ethnic theories.

Some references used in my work are:

Manuel Barbera, "Introduzione alla Linguistica
Generale",
http://www.bmanuel.org/courses/corling_idx.html, 2002,
revised January 2004
Luigi Luca Cavalli Sforza, "Geni, popoli e lingue",
Adelphi, Milano, 1996
Francisco Villar, "Los Indoeuropeos y los origines de
Europa", II edition, Editorial Gredos, Madrid, 1996
Cavalli Sforza/Menozzi/Piazza, "The History and
Geography of Human Genes", Princeton University Press,
1994

I have tried, where Mystaran countries, ethnicities
and languages resemble Earth ones, to apply a 1:1
correspondence, as much as possible. I have based
myself on the evolution of human language on Earth.
Where there are still doubts and uncertainties
regarding some real world issues (like the origin of
japanese language) among scholars of the field, I have
chosen, when possible, theories that seem at least
reasonable to the scientific community, and that are
so difficult to prove, that their solution will (if
ever) appear so far in the future that I don't fear I
will soon (if ever) have to change this work...

2. Ethnicities, cultures and languages
(note: if you are not interested in the reasons and
explanation of HOW I developed this Mystaran
Ethnography, jump to the next chapter, the first of
the second mail of this document)

The first thing we must remember when dealing with
ethnography and linguistics is that there is not
always a true correspondance between ethnicity and
language. There are many simple examples to this.
Probably most of those who are reading this are
Americans. Probably most of their mother tongue is
English. However, many of them are not of English
ethnicity (the obvious ones, the Afroamericans and
Native Americans - note: I am Italian and therefore I
apologize in advance if I referred to them in a
non-politically correct way - just in case I did,
forgive me!).

This said, we must for the first thing deal with the
Mystaran main ethnic groups. According to the "Hollow
World Boxed Set", there are three main human
ethnicities: Neathar, Oltecs, and Tanagoro. A rough
terrestrial equivalent for these ethnicities are
"White Men", "Almond-shaped eyes" and "Black Men".

This table shows the ethnical evolution theory I have
based my revised Mystaran Ethnography on:

1. "Black Men"

2. "Others"
-->2.1. Native Australians
-->2.2. Southeastern Asians
-->2.3. Eurasians
------------>2.3.1. Asians
--------------------->2.3.1.1. Orientals ("Yellow
Men")
--------------------->2.3.1.2. Native Americans ("Red
Men")
------------>2.3.2. Caucasoids ("White Men")


The following table shows which linguistic groups
belong to which ethnicity (note: I have deliberately
omitted some of the most obscure linguistic groups
that don't seem to have a Mystaran equivalent), the
one on which I based my work, looks like this:

1. "Black Men"
--->1.1 Nile-saharians
--->1.2 Khoisan (eg: Bushmen)
--->1.3 Niger-kordafanian (eg: Bantu, Swahili)

2.1. Native Australians = Australian languages

2.2. Southeastern Asians
------>x) Austric groups (eg: Viet, Thai, Mon-Khmer,
Polinesian languages, some Southern Chines languages)
------>y) Indopacific group (eg: Papua)

2.3.1.1. Oriental Asians
--->a) Sinocaucasian group
------->a1) Sinotibetans (Chinese, Tibetan)
------->a2) Nadene (Apache, Navajo)
--->b) Uralo-altaic (eg: Finnish, Hungarian, Turkish,
Mongolian)

2.3.1.2. Amerindians = most Native American languages

2.3.2. Caucasoids
---> A) Indoeuropeans (eg: Latins, Greek, Celts,
Germans, Indians)
---> B) Afroasians
------->B1) Semites (eg: Arabians, Jews)
------->B2) Camites (eg: Egyptians)

In most cases, the correspondances between Mystara and
Earth are evident. However, as I said above, sometimes
a population belonging ethnically to one group, speaks
a language that developed in (and thus "belongs to") a
different ethnic group from that of the languages
generally associated to it. And sometimes two
populations cross themselves, but then retain only the
language of one of the two (probably more or less
influenced from the other).

I want to point out three important examples that I
have studied with attention because they present
features that are interesting for Earth's history and
for Mystara's ethnography.


1) A clear example of this are the European
populations. Among the Europeans, between 90 and 100%
of the genes indicate a "Caucasoid" origin, and
according to which area of Europe, between 10 and 0%
indicate a Finnic (and thus "Asiatic"!) origin. It is
also to be noted that the features of blonde hair and
blue eyes originated among the Finnic populations (of
Asiatic origin) that lived around the Balt Sea before
the arrival of Indoeuropean populations. Finland is
the only place where these features have remained tied
to the language - about 10% of the population's genes
are Finnic, and their language belongs to the
Uralo-altaic group (thus, the group of their Finnic
ancestors). The other Europeans that most prominently
feature these somatic traits (Balts, Norwegians and
Swedes) speak Indoeuropean languages.


2) The linguists and genetists are generally oriented
toward thinking that:
a) there has been a common origin of the modern human
race (probably Africa)
b) there have been several different origins of the
human languages - probably there isn't a "original"
human language, but there have been several ones

Trying to push the borders of languages as far back as
possible, we find:

i) the three African groups (separated from each
other)
ii) the Nostratic supergroup
iii) the Sinocaucasic supergroup
iv) the Amerindian group (includes most Native
American tongues)
v) the Austric supergroup
vi) the Australian and Indopacific groups (probably
related)

The Nostratic group includes: Semite, Camite,
Indoeuropean, Uralo-altaic, among others.

This means that, while the Uralo-altaic populations
are of Asiatic ethnicity, they speak languages related
to the Caucasoid populations, and NOT to the
Sinotibetan and Amerindian languages, thus NOT to
their "ethnicity". And moreover, Sinotibetan and
Amerindian languages are NOT related either!

Thus, I thought of this correspondance between Mystara
and Earth:

1. Tanagoro
The Tanagoro are the equivalent of the "Black Men".
All Mystaran populations that speak languages
equivalent to those belonging to the three African
linguistic groups belong to the Tanagoro ethnicity.
Thus, we have these Canonic populations: Tanagoro,
Tangor Men, Nuari, Yavi.

2. Oltecs
The Oltecs are ethnically the equivalent of the
"Asians". They separated in two groups BEFORE the
developement of language:
a) the first group includes the ancestors of Imperial
Oltecs, Azcans and Atruaghin, and is the equivalent of
the Earth's Amerindians
b) the second group includes the ancestors of the
Ethengarians, and is the equivalent of the Earth's
Uralo-altaic

3. The Ochaleans, the only Canon human population on
Mystara that speaks a Sino-tibetan language, are not
Oltecs but Alphatians. This leaves us with the
question what origin the Sino-Tibetan languages may
have. Especially since we know that there is a Rakasta
culture on Skothar, the Tagh, that seems the
equivalent of the Earth's Tibetans. I'll return to
this later.

4. Neathar
The "true" Neathar ethnicities are the equivalent of
Indoeuropeans, Semites and Camites, thus the ancestors
of Antalians, Alasiyans and Nithians. Two facts must
be noted:

a) At some point in Mystaran history, the
Indoeuropeans interacted with a Finnic population
(thus belonging to the Uralo-Altaic Oltecs), probably
in Norwold, and from this the blue eyes/blonde hair
became a somatic trait associated also to the
Indoeuropeans cultures. Like on Earth, the more the
populations lived near the place of origin of those
somatic trait, the more they became present among the
population. Thus, the Antalians and their descendants
are the Neathar populations with more of these
features.

b) The original Neathar language was spoken both by
the Neathar populations, and both by their neighbours,
the Uralo-altaic Oltecs that are ancestors of the
Ethengarians.

5. There are only two Canon cultures that belong to
the Austric linguistic group: the Makai, and the
Harimau-Beng Rakastas of Skothar. The Makai are
ethnically Neathar, but their language is in no way
related to the Nostratic ones; thus, I thought that
they could have been conquered, in very ancient times,
by a Rakasta population related to the Harimau-Belang.
More on this later.

6. The Australian group is represented on Mystara by
the non-human Wallaras (from the Savage Coast/Orc's
Head Peninsula setting).

And now, you know most of the ideas I thought of when
writing the following part...









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------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 2004 23:03:22 -0700
From:    Andrew Theisen <jsmill@WANS.NET>
Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History

--- Steven Carter <steven.f.carter@GMAIL.COM> wrote:

> I found at least one version of that doc in the
> Vaults. Alphatian domination began about 600 BC I
> think. However there is another doc by
> another creator that dates Alphatian domination to
> about 770 BC.

Hmm... not sure about that second one. I know that the
closest "hard and fast" date given in canon references
was c. 500 BC or thereabouts, and that was the date I
tinkered around with. 'Course, it's been while since I
wrote that. I do seem to recall there is quite a bit
of leeway to play with the dates, though.

> The scenario I like would have the fiercer breed of
> rakasta being a result of an Alphatian breeding
> project. The rakasta would be left on Ochalea for a
> few centuries to soften up the indigenous populace.
> Then Alphatia would come along to help clean up the
> mess and begin an expulsion of the locals as well as
> the rakasta.

That's an interesting take. The only immediate
questions that come to mind for me would be what was
it about Ochalea that interested the Alphatians in it
to go about this project, but there could certainly be
any number of things.

> As for the cultural aspects of the original Ochalean
> culture I'm working on scenarios that have three or
> four Asian cultures represented by different
regional > clan structures.

That's a really good approach, and Ochalea is
certainly large enough that we could do that. (Heck,
just look at the myriad cultures crammed into the tiny
space that is the Known World. Ochalea is of
comparable size.)

I'm really, really kicking myself right now, for not
having thought of this idea. For years, I've been
tugging at the mystery of Ochalea, and trying to
figure out how to get a Japanese culture (Myoshima)
out of the land, when all we'd been given is the
Chinese culture depicted in the sourcebooks (which
don't really have the space to flesh the entirety of
the island-continent out in any case).

This is probably the most ingenious idea I've heard
about Ochalea thus far. I am very impressed. :)

> I think it's clear that Beitung should be Chinese.
> But national capitals move and get renamed. At the
> start of the Rakasta domination the capital could
> have been in a prefecture controlled by a
> Japanese-inspired clan.

Absolutely. I'm loving this idea.

> An Alphatian governor would move the capital to the
> north east because it's closer to Alphatia.

I can see that.

> Historically I see the rakasta domination working
> much like various barbarian invasions in China and
> Korea. Barbarians invade. Barbarians are culturally
> assimilated. Barbarian dynasty becomes old and weak.
> Barbarian dynasty falls. The culture keeps going,
> changed but still characteristic of the native
> populace.

This is precisely my thinking of how the rakasta
domination worked. I figure they came from the large
forests to the south, took over, and instituted their
monarchy.

My idea was to base it essentially on the Mongol
invasions of China- with the rakasta becoming
entrenched in the hierarchy and society of Ochalea,
and bringing reforms that changed the nation into a
more militaristic structure- essentially bringing the
"Japanese" warlord/samurai/daimyo sort of "formalized"
hierarchy to Ochalea.

However, with your idea of "sub-M-Asian" parts of
Ochalea, I no longer need to fall back on this idea as
being the catalyst to introduce those elements.

> If the Alphatians expelled the indigenous people I
> can see them doing it in order to weaken the chance
> of rebellion by watering down the population. Those
> relocated to other lands would be replaced with the
> mundane copper-skinned Alphatian people. However I
> don't think it would be a rapid process.

No, I agree. Although, with the timeline of Mystara, a
lot of long processes (RW-wise) tend to turn into
short processes (the rise of the homo-sapiens, the
replacement of neanderthals, etc.). That being said,
one of the other kinks in my own efforts at a
"unified" Ochalean history was the shortened timespan.
I think there definitely needs to be a lengthy enough
period that the "Common" copper-skinned Alphatians
adopt elements of the Ochalean indigenous culture-
which we can plainly see they have from the source
material; they are described as being linguistically
and culturally different from their mainland
relatives, even though they are from the same racial
stock. The consensus has largely been that there was
an indigenous people there (as we are discussing), but
there never seemed quite enough time, if there was a
relocation. (Especially given the low population
figures of Ochalea- but that's another story, and one
we've gone over many times here on the list. :)

> Also, the Ochalean natives wouldn't just be sent to
> one or a handful of places. Thousands would wind up
> in what are essentially slave markets. A
> wizard-lord's major domo would buy a few girls for
> maids here, a few gardeners there, a sword master
for > the house army, an old priest to entertain with
> exotic philosophy and perhaps a few dozen
> commoners for labour, farming, etc. A process that
> goes on for centuries creating an Ochalean diaspora
> first within Alphatia proper and its holdings, then
> all nations it deals with.

I agree with this. Something similar seems to have
happened with the Yanifey (another legacy of
Alphatia's relocation programs). I figure that the
relatives of the Ochaleans/Ethengar that were left
stranded on the Isle of Dawn probably faced a similar
fate.

(BTW, don't know if you've read about this theory, or
if it's archived, but it was about the possible
Peshwah- or as I call them Pexua- origins of the
Ochalean people. You might be able to find something
about it on the Vaults.)

> I know everyone has their own versions and own
> campaigns. I just like to try to get everything
> meshed together.

I'm with you on this. Unfortunately, sometimes it's
not possible, or at least not without quite a bit of
effort having to be made.

Fortunately, in this case, I think there is little
enough that has been done with Ochalea that there
shouldn't be any difficulties getting something more
solid done.

I'm really liking your ideas so far. Looking forward
to hearing more!

(BTW, a thought just occurred to me. Your "multiple
Asian cultures" on Ochalea solves another issue- James
Mishler made a wonderful map of the island and had a
geographic entry, but the names he gave to it were all
in Japanese in the entry, because he didn't know the
Chinese translations. With your theory, the entry and
names are still accurate- to that particular region of Ochalea!)

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End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 18 Oct 2004 to 19 Oct 2004 (#2004-224)
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