Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 19 Oct 2004 to 20 Oct 2004 (#2004-225) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 21/10/2004, 18:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 35 messages totalling 2090 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Belcadiz Language 2. Basical Ethnic and Linguistic Guidelines for Mystara (1 of 3) 3. Doulakki [was: Belcadiz] 4. Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History (15) 5. Belcadiz Language and the whole Belcadiz problem (7) 6. Ethnic groups and Cultures in Glantri (was Belcadiz Language) 7. Ethnic groups and Cultures in Glantri (was Belcadiz Language) 8. Traldar History (3) 9. Rakastas, Ochalea & Myoshima (...and Makai!) (4) 10. Problems w/ RW=Mystara (was Ochalea, Belcadiz, etc.) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/default.aspx To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 01:51:07 -0700 From: DM Subject: Re: Belcadiz Language On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 09:44:57 -0400, Chris Cherrington wrote: << The short and sweet version of some fatal flaws of Belcadiz being from the Savage Coast and influenced by Ispan is this:>> uh? Belcadiz cannot be from the Savage Coast, since Ispan came there only in BC 900, 200 years AFTER the Belcadiz had already settled in Glantri :) << 730 AC: Settlers come to Glantri, including fair elves (descendants of the elves who fled the area in 1700 BC) and humans from Traladara and Thyatian colonies in Ylaruam. Frictions begin between the Flaems and settlers.>> Here it doesn't refer to Belcadiz, folks, it's a reference to EREWANS! The line after that "descendants of the elves who fled the area in 1700 BC" was not in the original timeline in GAZ3 or GAZ5, I beg you to read better. That line was in the text where the Princess describes to the young students the history of Glantri, and it refers to the coming of the Belcadiz, which PREDATES the coming of Traladaran, Thyatian and Erewan colonists! Check it out! ;) So basically, even if GAZ5 has AC 700 as Erewans leaving Alfheim, we must in fact refer to AC 730 as pointed out in GAZ3 and assume that Belcadiz came somewhere between 700 and 720 AC, settling there BEFORE the other elves came. Fair elves are indeed Erewans, while Belcadiz are darker in complexion, much like Callarii and Verdier. << Now if the elves came with Thyatian colonists from Ylari that would put a large Ispan culture of not only elves, but humans as well. The Traladara we know will become the Boldavi. So maybe the common tongue of Glantri is not Thyatian Proper, but Ispan? >> I'd say there is no real Common tongue spoken in Glantri. Thyatian should be common, but it's only a matter of diplomacy. With so many different ethnicities in Glantri, coming from different continents and dimensions, people don't go to school to learn Common but stay true to their dialects. Only wizards and nobles are schooled in foreign tongues. <<900 AC is when Thyatians, the Ispans, start to colonize the Savage Coast. There Espa and Verdan develops. So maybe by now, we can say Caurenze develops by being Ispan and influenced by Flaemish and French?>> Well, according to the speculations we've made over the Italian Mystara Boards, Caurenzan derives from a vulgar form of Thyatian spoken by people living in the counties of Kantrium and Halathius. It's likely these people have created a Thyatian Vulgar (similar to Italic Vulgar which stemmed from Latin) also because of the ylari influence. Later, the Caurenzan Vulgar evolved in "Italian like" Caurenzan due to the different social environment. So we have Italian proper which is Caurenzan, Latin which is Thyatian, Byzantine for Kerendan and Vulgar for Thyatians of Kantrium and Halathius. But I suppose Iulius Scaevola will prolly give you a more thorough explanation pretty soon ;) DM _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:01:52 +0200 From: Federico Kaftal Subject: Re: Basical Ethnic and Linguistic Guidelines for Mystara (1 of 3) This looks like a great, great job, Iulius Scaevola, although you should probably warn your public that - from the same bibliography of yours - the monogenetic language theory is as much credited as the poligenetic theory: please cfr.Alfredo Trombetti's works too, over all, which are old but for the most part are still valuable and accurate in supporting the monogenetic theory. So, please, consider the possibility of relating ethnicity AND language in Mystara to one single source, which is, BTW, the mythical way in which every traditional culture seizes the matter: in other words, although you believe in the poligenetic theory, you are doomed to establish a different, monogenetic theory which is either true, or at least it's the version Mystaran sages believe in. Keep up! Federico ----Original Message Follows---- Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 01:11:51 +0200 From: la Volpe Subject: Basical Ethnic and Linguistic Guidelines for Mystara (1 of 3) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit [snip] Some references used in my work are: Manuel Barbera, "Introduzione alla Linguistica Generale", http://www.bmanuel.org/courses/corling_idx.html, 2002, revised January 2004 Luigi Luca Cavalli Sforza, "Geni, popoli e lingue", Adelphi, Milano, 1996 Francisco Villar, "Los Indoeuropeos y los origines de Europa", II edition, Editorial Gredos, Madrid, 1996 Cavalli Sforza/Menozzi/Piazza, "The History and Geography of Human Genes", Princeton University Press, 1994 [snip] 2) The linguists and genetists are generally oriented toward thinking that: a) there has been a common origin of the modern human race (probably Africa) b) there have been several different origins of the human languages - probably there isn't a "original" human language, but there have been several ones [snip] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 02:03:43 -0700 From: DM Subject: Re: Doulakki [was: Belcadiz] On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:37:37 +0200, la Volpe wrote: << And what if I wanted to call these Traldar of western Thyatis "Doulakki"?>> AARGHH!! Not again! :p :) May I ask you WHY do you need to rename them? Just because they lived outside Karameikos? But they're still Traldars! It's pretty strange you have to INVENT a new name for people who basically only settled one maybe two cities (Cynidicea and Selenica/Selenikos whatever). Why don't stay true to canon? Otherwise I could call the Alphatians of Glantri "Galatians" just because they've settled in another part of the world (it's the same difference between your "doulakki" and my "traldars" of Thyatis, coz they're the same in culture and language!) :p Anyway, I'll jump on the bandwagon of the Traldar migrations later (agathokles beat me on that! :p), I don't have the time now, sorry. ;) DM __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 02:40:44 -0700 From: DM Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:33:05 -0300, Steven Carter wrote: << Well, I tend to think Skothar is big enough. I came up with the premise that the Ochalean population descended from Peshwan AND Afridhi after reading the ethnographic history article you contributed to.>> I also liked the idea behind the M-Orient project which placed many oriental cultures in Skothar, but after some longue talks with Iulius Scaevola and agathokles I have understood that placing a human Chinese or Japanese culture in Skothar is highly unlikely, and having it influence Ochalea is unreasonable. The only race that can link Skothar to Ochalea are the RAKASTA, and we must refer to the article featured on Dragon Magazine where Bruce describes the various breeds of rakasta that live on Mystara. Because of the different breeds living in areas so distant from one another, all over Mystara, we have deduced that Ka created rakasta in two different places (Davania and Skothar) and from these two starting points the rakasta moved through all of Mystara, usually traveling on land (using the natural brigdes that linked Skothar to Brun and Davania before the Great Rain of Fire) and only rarely by sea (for those who settled in the Arm of the Immortals). Cave Rakasta (Simbasta's ancestors) spread northwards from southern Davania, while Rakastodon Fatalis spread west and eastwards from Skothar, and it was these Rakastodon fatalis' descendants who brought the eastern cultures to Mystara (japanese and thai culture). Ochalea was inhabited by rakasta and ogre-magi from the beginning, with little or no human population. Later lupin houndlings escaping from Taymor arrived in Ochalea and after a while grouped with rakasta to defeat the ogre-magi (around BC 1500). The fusion of lupin, rakasta and ogre-magi cultures got Ochalea its distinct chinese flavour. The Alphatians came only later as DotE says: "Settled in the centuries after Alphatian Landfall by common Alphatians with no magical potential, Ochalea grew to be an independent minded kingdom of hard-working people." No mention of a major war to settle in Ochalea means IMO that these Alphatians settled peacefully, bringing with the the cult of Koryis, which blended easily into the rakastan and lupin Ochalean tradition (the Celestial Court). If you look at Ochalea in DotE, you'll see that the majority of its inhabitants is ALPHATIAN, no other racial stock exists (aside from Thyatians who came here later in the first millennium AC)! Ochalean racial characteristics are Alphatian (common, not pureblood), as described in DotE Book 2 page 19: "Coppery skin tone, hair ranging from golden brown to dark brown, seldom curly; eyes brown, amber or gold; average height to tall and built lean; fine facial features are common." Here's the common Alphatian, to make a comparison (same page, a few paragraphs above, in HIGH CAPS the differences): "Coppery skin tone, hair ranging from golden brown to dark brown TO RED ; eyes brown, amber, GREEN, HAZEL or gold; built tall and lean; fine facial features are common." IT's just the culture which is different from the Alphatian one, and likely taken from the pre-existing rakasta and lupin civs. That's why Ochaleans are basically an offshot of Alphatian common stock! :) <> Blackmoor was located on Skothar, north of Thonia, and is now where the north pole should be (but since there's a big hole, there is no more Blackmoor to speak of). This is derived from canon sources (Hollow World, all gazetteers, adventures DA1-4). The only gaz which places Blackmoor in Brun is GAZ10 (see the map). Also evidences there was a Blackmoor settlement in Brun are the fact that Blackmoor devices are mentioned being found in the Broken Lands AND that Aquarendi and Shadow Elves (who are said living near Blackmoor) dwell near (or under) Brun AND that the Nucleus is under Glantri (but this is explained with the Immortals of Energy moving it after GRoF after tampering with it). My theory to accomodate the second placing of Blackmoor is that Blackmoor on Brun was the first and most important colony of Old Blackmoor (call it New Blackmoor or Nova Blackmoor), placed in Brun to continue the crusade against the beastmen and to explore and exploit that faraway continent. Blackmoor also prolly had a third colony next to Davania to explore that land too, and it should be with this third colony that the Evergrun elves made first contact in BC 3500. When the GRoF happened, all nuclear devices of Blackmoorian cities exploded, and this means we had nuclear fallouts in Brun (prolly west of current Denagoth), Skothar and Davania-Oceania region, which made the axis tilt. << I'm content to say that a group of Peshwa and a group of discontented Afridhi got together before they were wiped out/assimilate, hid somewhere west of the major power of the day and were lucky enough to make their way toward present-day Ochalea. Of course this puts them travelling through the Oltec Savages lands (I guess).>> According to DA1-4 and the new Blackmoor d20, Peshwa and Afridhi have nothing to do with Chinese or Japanese. Their appearance is of Oltec-Neathar stock (more Oltec for Scythian-like Peshwa, which are probably the ancestors of later Jennite tribes) and their naming has nothing to do with a Chinese-Japanese culture. That's why I don't think it's safe to make this assumptions, sorry Steven ;) DM _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:25:41 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History DM wrote: > > Because of the different breeds living in areas so > distant from one another, all over Mystara, we have > deduced that Ka created rakasta in two different > places (Davania and Skothar) Note that here I still consider possible that Rakasta were created on Cestia or some other island between Skothar and Davania and in any case, I'd add the following points to the original location of the Simbasta and Sherkasta (direct descendents of the first two breeds): > Cave Rakasta (Simbasta's ancestors) spread northwards > from southern Davania, I don't think the Simbasta started from ``southern'' Davania, but rather from eastern Davania (Vanya's rest, more or less). > while Rakastodon Fatalis spread > west and eastwards from Skothar, and it was these > Rakastodon fatalis' descendants who brought the > eastern cultures to Mystara (japanese and thai > culture). And the Rakastodon started from the western regions of the Tangor Bay, rather than ``Skothar'', which is really too generic ;) Bye, -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:05:42 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Belcadiz Language and the whole Belcadiz problem Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > This would be possible if Thyatian was M-Spanish, which it is not. > OTOH, if you assume that Belcadiz could have adopted Ispan from the > Ispans, then there's no real reason to have them cling to Elvish -- > since they actually do not use it, as far as we know. You're right that their names being spanish, we could suppose that spanish is their first language, but we could assume that elvish is their second language, too, and not so much less used in their lives. Just a matter of taste and choice of any individual DM for me, I don't like the idea of elves abandoning their language in just one generation or less. > I don't really catch this point. Sure the Belcadiz are not from the > Coast, they're, most likely, from Thyatis. > They can't be from the SC, but then neither the Ispans are from the > SC -- they're from Thyatis. > If we assume a common origin, it should be from Thyatis and not from > Glantri -- since the Belcadiz already had Ispan names when they > arrived (had they changed their names, someone would have noticed!) The real problem is that who wrote the GAZ 3 couldn't care less about the origin of the Belcadiz elves, and who wrote the Savage coast couldn't care less about the problem of duplicating their spanish culture, so we can just try to explain things that simply have no explanations, according to our individual tastes. I don't like at all to have ispan-speaking elves in Thyatis before 730 ac without noone noticing them nor them leaving any mark in thyatian history, so I prefer the Belcadiz coming from the "misterious" Savage coast, a land far away for the people of the Known World, not from well known and travelled Thyatis. If they would have come from Thyatis they should have at least some link with the Vyalia, common culture, common history or common complexion, and they haven't absolutely any of them. They have nothing in common with any elven clan of the Known World, so I prefer them to have their roots in the Savage Coast. > Because no one had them in mind at the time ;) > No one said there were Lupins in the KW before the DM article as > well, for example. Exactly, that's a big problem of the setting, I hate things added later to the Known World. I played for ten years real time and 20 game time before rakasta and lupins appeared, so I simply cannot add them to the setting telling the players "sure those people live in the KW from centuries but you never see one of them nor hear anything about them travelling the whole world in 20 years" :-) So I had to assume that rakasta and lupins lived mostly in small groups in isolated regions like northern Glantri, the interior of Ochalea and so on... bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:45:18 +0200 From: Morten Greis Subject: Ethnic groups and Cultures in Glantri (was Belcadiz Language) Hi everyone I've been following the discussions about Belcadiz elves, Flaems etc. with some interest, since I'm considering a 'Great School of Magic' campaign, where all the characters are Glantrian in origin. Now I have become somewhat uncertain as to what cultures/ethnic groups/races that exist side by side in Glantri. For example, if a player chooses to play a human, what type of humans are then available (Boldavians, Flaems and how many more)? What languages are spoken in Glantri - is there a central Glantrian, that everyone speaks, and then several minority languages, for example what language would function as the official state language (and how is it related to Darokinian and/or Thyatian?)? When it comes to elves, there are two obvious subgroups. Both easy to deal with, but this whole discussion as to the M-spanish traits of the Belcadiz - which I find very interesting - has made me wonder, if there isn't an alternative to the origin of the language, demeanor and skincomplexion. Isn't it possible that these difference a way older, perhaps already existing when they first arrived in Glantri - in this case their traits do not need to evolve in contact with the Ispans, instead the Ispans are influenced by the Belcadiz. IIRC - In a sense this too perhaps applies to the Icevale elves. Their culture is different from other elvish cultures (and they too have their own dialect), is this a development that happened after their arrived in the Hollow World? It doesn't seem likely since they too are influenced by the Spell of Preservation (having cultural armor and weapons). It also seems unlikely that they adopted their cultural traits while emigrating, since they were underground. So the Icevale elves, the Belcadiz and perhaps also the Gentle Folk and Schattenalfen could already have possessed different traits before they fled from Glantri? For now, Morten Greis ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 08:17:56 -0300 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Well, having the Vaults to draw on and little of the commercially published canon I really couldn't make more than one of the connections you just made for me. I was attempting to reconcile a lot of fan material that pointed in this direction and just didn't read the right stuff yet. On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 02:40:44 -0700, DM wrote: > On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:33:05 -0300, Steven Carter > wrote: > The only race that can link Skothar to Ochalea are the > RAKASTA, and we must refer to the article featured on > Dragon Magazine where Bruce describes the various > breeds of rakasta that live on Mystara. > Ochalea was inhabited by rakasta and ogre-magi from > the beginning, with little or no human population. > Later lupin houndlings escaping from Taymor arrived in > Ochalea and after a while grouped with rakasta to > defeat the ogre-magi (around BC 1500). The fusion of > lupin, rakasta and ogre-magi cultures got Ochalea its > distinct chinese flavour. So when the Alphatians arrived they settled the island peacefully? And the new arrivals (how many) adopted the culture of the indigenous ogre-magi/lupin/rakasta? (how many, or at least what ratio?) Were the rakasta ever spirited away somewhere else? > The Alphatians came only later as DotE says: > "Settled in the centuries after Alphatian Landfall by > common Alphatians with no magical potential, Ochalea > grew to be an independent minded kingdom of > hard-working people." Were they dumped there as a remote work camp? Did they escape from Alphatia as part of a revolt by oppressed people? Is there anything that says Ochalea is part of the Alphatian Empire in the period 700 BC - 1 BC? Or is it a sovereign nation? Why would it be sovereign if Alphatia is sending colonial missions farther west to the Sea of Dread? > No mention of a major war to settle in Ochalea means > IMO that these Alphatians settled peacefully, bringing > with the the cult of Koryis, which blended easily into > the rakastan and lupin Ochalean tradition (the > Celestial Court). No mention? Doesn't exclude it. Maybe it wasn't a war. Lots of people collaborate with "invaders" to secure a better position in the new world order. > If you look at Ochalea in DotE, you'll see that the > majority of its inhabitants is ALPHATIAN, no other > ... > average height to tall and built lean; fine facial > features are common." > Here's the common Alphatian, to make a comparison > (same page, a few paragraphs above, in HIGH CAPS the > differences): > "Coppery skin tone, hair ranging from golden brown to > dark brown TO RED ; eyes brown, amber, GREEN, HAZEL or > gold; built tall and lean; fine facial features are > common." No, they don't sound very typically Asian. Except I'm well aware that Asian people run the gamut of human variety. > IT's just the culture which is different from the > Alphatian one, and likely taken from the pre-existing > rakasta and lupin civs. Likely? Does that mean the canon material specifically excludes other origins or a composite origin? Are ALL elements of Ochalean culture just Rakastan? Are some still Alphatian? Are other elements from something else? Is it possible or is it left unsaid? ;) Sorry, but I personally don't believe in single origins of anything whether they be real or in this case fantasy. :D > That's why Ochaleans are basically an offshot of > Alphatian common stock! :) Basically? So what about the rest? Is it further speciation of the Alphatian stock as they become more and more interbred? Is that likely in that area and for the initial population? Or is it a result of a racial fusion over centuries to millennia? > < .... > revisited.>> > > Blackmoor was located on Skothar, north of Thonia, and Got this much so far. And I got the colonies elsewhere bit. Kinda looking for a map that spells out exact sizes of nations and territory held. > << I'm content to say that a group of Peshwa and a > group of discontented Afridhi got together before they > ... > puts them travelling through the Oltec Savages lands > (I guess).>> > > According to DA1-4 and the new Blackmoor d20, Peshwa > .... > this assumptions, sorry Steven ;) Again, my assumptions were based on the enormous base of fan material in the vaults which specifically make these links or imply this possibility. And I'm afraid that I haven't bought Blackmoor d20. Which is why I asked these questions in the first place. However because I WAS seeing conflicts between a few things already, not the enormous discrepancies you have pointed out, I was of a mind to attempt a reconciliation through creation. Fill in the blanks as it were. And where commercial canon is silent on a matter I fully intend to run as far and as fast as I can whether or not canon implies anything or not. I'll take your pointers and ask for more later. This is taking too long and I have to go to work. As it is this response is rushed. Thanks. More later. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 13:28:14 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Belcadiz Language and the whole Belcadiz problem Francesco Defferrari wrote: > > You're right that their names being spanish, we could suppose that spanish > is their first language, but we could assume that elvish is their second > language, too, and not so much less used in their lives. Just a matter of > taste and choice of any individual DM for me, I don't like the idea of elves > abandoning their language in just one generation or less. I do understand your concern, of course. What leaves me puzzled is that a culture could preserve a language without actually using it (if it was used, then some names would be simply adapted to the Ispan writing/pronounciation or at least reminiscent of elvish names). The complete absence of elvish elements from their names is what brings me to think that there is no trace of elvish language in Belcadiz. If you consider how the influences of neighbour or past languages are preserved in RW onomastic, then there must be a reason why no elven name is preserved among the Belcadiz -- certainly not a people to discard tradition. > we can just > try to explain things that simply have no explanations, according to our > individual tastes. Of course. > I don't like at all to have ispan-speaking elves in > Thyatis before 730 ac without noone noticing them nor them leaving any mark > in thyatian history, so I prefer the Belcadiz coming from the "misterious" > Savage coast, a land far away for the people of the Known World, not from > well known and travelled Thyatis. Yes, but then why do they speak Ispan? How can 600 years old Belcadiz have Ispan names, if they only recently (700 AC? 900 AC?) came in contact with Thyatis? > If they would have come from Thyatis they > should have at least some link with the Vyalia, common culture, common > history or common complexion, and they haven't absolutely any of them. Not necessarily! If you set them somewhere far enough from County Vyalia, I think you could obtain something reasonable. For example, Thanegioth Archipelago is not a place where the Vyalia usually go, nor are the Shadow Coast of the Isle of Dawn or Nicostenia. > Exactly, that's a big problem of the setting, I hate things added later to > the Known World. I played for ten years real time and 20 game time before > rakasta and lupins appeared, so I simply cannot add them to the setting > telling the players "sure those people live in the KW from centuries but you > never see one of them nor hear anything about them travelling the whole > world in 20 years" :-) Well, that's for everyone to choose. I don't have a 20-years long campaign, unluckily, so I can reason with a large number of Lupins -- you can do so also if your campaign is prevalently based in Karameikos, Darokin, Alfheim, Rockhome, Ethengar, Five Shires and Atruaghin, since there aren't many Lupins there. > So I had to assume that rakasta and lupins lived mostly in small groups in > isolated regions like northern Glantri, the interior of Ochalea and so on... That's a perfectly reasonable choice, of course, though *I* do otherwise in my posts (e.g., I assume Lupins are common sight in Glantri, Thyatis, Heldann and Ylaruam). OTOH, Rakasta are not that common in the KW (only in the Khurish Massif and the interior of Ochalea), so they cause no problem. However, I don't think the Belcadiz problem can be solved so easily. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 13:43:59 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Ethnic groups and Cultures in Glantri (was Belcadiz Language) Morten Greis wrote: > > Now I have become somewhat uncertain as to what cultures/ethnic groups/races > that exist side by side in Glantri. > For example, if a player chooses to play a human, what type of humans are then > available (Boldavians, Flaems and how many more)? Let me see: Human, Mystaran: Thyatian (Caurenzan) Thyatian (Aalbanese) Traladaran (Boldavian) Ethengar (Krondahar) Human, Laterran Averoignese Klantyrian Fen (non-canon) Human, Alphatian Alphatian Flaem Human, mixed (Albanese-Alphatian are very common) Elf, Sylvan Elf, Belcadiz Lupin, Glantri Mountaineer (Caurenze) Lupin, Cimarron Hairless (Boldavia) Lupin, Hound of Klantyre (Klantyre) Lupin, Flaem Shephered (Linden, non-canon) Other types of Lupins and Humans not belonging to one of these ``native'' groups can be found (humans from Darokin, Thyatis and perhaps Sind, Lupins of the Das Hund, Doggerman and Heldann Shepherd breeds). Rakasta and Gnomes are uncommon at best. Lycanthropes are quite common, of course. > What languages are spoken in Glantri - is there a central Glantrian, that > everyone speaks, and then several minority languages, for example what language > would function as the official state language (and how is it related to > Darokinian and/or Thyatian?)? Several, as in Switzerland, I'd say. Major language would be Thyatian (dialect of Glantri city). Other languages: Thyatian dialects (Caurenzan, Aalbanese, Ispan/Belcadiz*) Traladaran dialect (Boldavian) Ethengar Alphatian Flaem Elvish Sylaire (Laterran French) Kaelic (Laterran Gaelic) Anglais (Laterran English) I'd say that most of these, except Thyatian, are only used in their native principality/region, but heavily used there. ``Common'' would be Thyatian, due to the number of Thyatian colonists. > When it comes to elves, there are two obvious subgroups. Both easy to deal > with, but this whole discussion as to the M-spanish traits of the Belcadiz - > which I find very interesting - has made me wonder, if there isn't an > alternative to the origin of the language, demeanor and skincomplexion. Isn't > it possible that these difference a way older, perhaps already existing when > they first arrived in Glantri - in this case their traits do not need to evolve > in contact with the Ispans, instead the Ispans are influenced by the Belcadiz. The traits, yes, the language, no. Unless you accept that no genetic relation can be established between Mystaran languages -- which is part of the foundation of our work on mystaran ethnography. Myself, I only accept parallel evolution in different dimension -- i.e., Sylaire and Thyatian are somehow related, but their relation is left unexplained. OTOH, I prefer to have a working explanation for Belcadiz/Ispan. > So the Icevale elves, the Belcadiz and perhaps also the Gentle Folk and > Schattenalfen could already have possessed different traits before they fled > from Glantri? You mean being so diverse? I'd say this would be very difficult. In any case, the Shattenalfen were certainly influenced by Atzanteotl. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 04:48:05 -0700 From: DM Subject: Traldar History So folks, here's my take on the history of the Traldars. But before I start with the timeline, let me point you out THREE IMPORTANT CANON THINGS TO REMEMBER: 1. BC 1254 : Orcs moving northwards from Atruaghin rampage and raze Athenos, a small commercial outpost (GAZ11). 2. GAZ11 says that there were NO SETTLEMENTS in Darokin in BC 800. 3. Hollow World says that the Toralai tribe of Neathar stock lived in the Thyatian mainland up to the arrival of the Thyatians (in BC 600). At that time they were nearly annihilated or absorbed by the Thyatians except for those saved by the Immortals sand transplanted in the HW. 4. GAZ8 says that the wars between gnolls and traldars went on for roughly 40 years before the beaten gnolls retreated northwards and westwards. Bearing this in mind, here's my chronology of the traldars : 1700 BC: Taymora survivors of the earthquakes which buried Taymor under the waves of the newly formed Sea of Dread settle on the Karameikan coasts, in Ierendi and Minrothad. 1500 BC: Toralai hunters thrive in the Thyatian mainland (from current Kerendas to the Tel Akbir peninsula) 1500 BC: Nithians enter the imperial age. The Nithian Traldar clan moves out of the Nithian basin and settles in modern days Karameikos and in the Selenican region. 1490 BC: Traldars and taymora make contact with one another and gradually mix together. [I'm assuming taymora was a pseudo-Greek or Aechaen culture here. Note that NOTHING from canon disconfirms this hypothesis.] 1400 BC: The Nithian Traldars of Karameikos revert to stone age because of environmental problems, bad crops and diseases over the course of 3 generations (100 years). Hutaakas pushed by Pflarr extend their influence over them, especially in the north, and dominate them culturally and spiritually. Traldars have begun to become more "Greek" losing their Nithian (Egyptian) base because of the stronger influence of the taymora. 1295 BC: Southern Traldars (more independent than northern ones) sail westwards staying close to the coastline to find a new land of opportunities where to live. Surpassing the Shires coastline and Athenos harbor (where they couldn't settle because hins had just settled there 5 years before), they sail upstream the Streel river and found a small village in the Darokin area calling it Daros. 1270 BC: The Traldars of Daros sends other settlers westwards and create a new settlement on the Amsorak Lake, calling it Akorros. It becomes a good trading post with the western Sindhi, bringing to the traldars of Daros some exotic goods which they then consume and/or exchange with southern halflings' wares. 1254 BC: Orcish bands leaving Atruaghin raze the Traldar trading outpost of Athenos and later settle in the Broken Lands. Another orcish wave move eastwards, destroying Daros and settling in the northern region of the Shires. They are not able to conquer the hins (their number reduced after raiding Daros) and so they start raiding them, waiting for their big chance of subduing the hins and conquering their rich lands. 1000 BC: Gnolls migrate from Nithia, escaping their Nithian masters. Some venture north in the current Orclands region, others settle in the Gnollheim hills (between Nithia and Soderfjord). The biggest group invades the Traldar Kingdoms and the hutaakas leave their Traldar "protegés", barricading in their Valley. Great migrations bring many humanoid tribes south of the overpopulated Broken Lands. A horde of Orcs invades the Shires region and enlsaves the hins. 995 BC: Milen leaves his village and brings with him his people, sailing southwards to avoid being overrun by the gnolls. He ventures past the isles of Ierendi and MInrothad and arrives in Davania. After Milen dies, Androsar leads the Milenians upriver to found the city of Milenia and later the Kingdom of Milenia. 960 BC: Antalian tribes coming from the north of Darokin (moved there from the Northern Reaches to escape enslavement at the hands of the Nithians) enter the Shires region and raze the newfounded nation of Hindon, competing with orcs and dwarves for supremacy. 950 BC: The last gnolls are defeated by the Traldars led by Halav, Petra and Zirchev and they flee on the mountains northwards and westwards. The remaining Traldars (10% of the initial population) are weakened after 50 years of war, raids and famine. Many Traldar villages have already been transported into the Hollow World by the Immortals. 930 BC: The Antalian raiders are chased off the Shires by the dwarves of Loktal Ironshield who now rules over the Shires, and they flee in the nearby woods and plains of the Traldars. They continue to raid the Traldar settlements without settling and remaining nomadic for many years. [Note: these tribes of Antalians are in fact the SLAVIC component that is needed to make the Greek Traldars become Slavic Traladarans. Reference to human raiding the Five Shires are canon from GAZ8. We simply decided to make them come from the north and be a part of the Antalian stock.] 900 BC: Nithians who have settled on the Makai Islands of Ierendi start to trade with hins of the new kingdom of Shaerdon (who freed themselves of the dwarves' yoke in the meantime). 790 BC: Nithians start to buy hin slaves from the orcs who overrun Shaerdon, to use them as settlers in the northern reaches. 740 BC: Traldars of southern Karameikos take the ships to find a new region where to live and avoid the constant pressure of the Antalian Slavic nomads. These Traldars sail in 3 different directions: - EASTWARDS: these Traldars end up settling the plains of Kerendas, between the toralai hunters in the east and the Vyalia elves in the west. - SOUTHWARDS: these Traldars end up in Ierendi and Minrothad and are enslaved immediately by the Nithians. - WESTWARDS: these Traldars settle in the harbor next to the Shires coasts and found Athenos. After theis migration the Antalian Slavic nomads finally settle in the areas left empty by the Traldars. 680 BC: Some colonists from Athenos sail upriver and find the remains of Daros, rebuilding the village. 610 BC: Daros traldars send settlers west and eastwards, rebuilding Athenos (west) and founding Dolos (east) to trade with other humans of eastern and northern Darokin (Antalians + Dunharians). With the passing centuries the mix of Traldars, Antalians and Dunharians will create the unique Darokinian population, renaming the capital Darokin under the Eastwind Kings. 600 BC: Kerendans arrive in the toralai and traldar territories of Thyatis. Many Traldars flee northwards while others surrender and are either enslaved and assimilated or slaughtered. The toralai are more easily defeated and only some of them are saved by the Immortals and transported in the HW. 580 BC: Some Traldars build Cynidicea on the borders of the Nithian empire, protected by the high Altan Tepes mountains from the warlike Thyatians and Kerendans of the south. 550 BC: Traldar settlers from Dolos found the city of Tuma in the region between southern Alfheim and northern Shires. 500 BC: End of the Nithian Empires. Cynidicean settlers build the city of Selenikos to start trading with the elves and humans in the west. With the passing centuries Traldars and Antalian Slavs of Karameikos have traded and married with one another to survive, finally changing the civilization that lives in Karameikos (Traladara) and becoming the Traladarans. [We could name these Antalian Slavs "Daras" to have Traldar + Daras = Traladarans] 492 BC: Tuma is destroyed by the humanoid hordes fleeing Rockhome after the defeat of Queen Ubdala at Sardal Pass. Selenikos manages to hold against this rampage only because of the human (Antalian + Dunharian) reinforcements and combined defense strategy. Afterwards these humans settle in the city, which slightly changes its name and culture in the following centuries becoming Selenica when the durrankin (celtic-germanic) influence becomes more pronounced. 200 BC: Minaeans migrate eastwards from Milenia in desperate need of a new place to live, despising the Milenian decline. They settle briefly on Bellissaria before going away and ending on the Minaean Coast of Skothar. Minaean colonies are also left in the Alatian Islands under the Alphatian suzerainity (Aegos, Gaity and Aeria). Cynidicea disappears during this period. 100 BC: The Milenian Empire of Davania falls, and some villages are transported in the HW by Halav and Petra. There ya go without the need to create Doulakki (which also occupy the area which canon-wise is toralai territory up to the arrivals of Kerendans and Thyatians) ;) Questions and comments are welcome. DM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 14:24:44 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Steven Carter wrote: > I'm content to say that a group of Peshwa and a group of discontented > Afridhi got together before they were wiped out/assimilate, hid > somewhere west of the major power of the day and were lucky enough to > make their way toward present-day Ochalea. Of course this puts them > travelling through the Oltec Savages lands (I guess). I agree that the oriental culture of Ochalea should not derived only from rakasta nor from alphatian. I prefer to consider that the oriental cultures of Mystara had a common origin in Skothar, after the Great Rain of Fire. > From a common "proto-oriental" culture developed from Afridhi, Oltecs, Thonians, Peshwa and the immortals only know what more came people who later formed the Ethengar people and the other oriental cultures of Brun, where they arrived around 2500-2000 BC, I think. Other went to Alphatia, Bellisaria and Ochalea (mixing with the local Yanifey population) and as far as Davania, were they formed the Yasuko people. Maybe rakastas came with them, maybe oriental humans and rakasta influenced each other, but there are too much common "asiatic" cultural traits between canon Ethengarians, Ochaleans, Yasukans and uncanon Skothar and Brun populations to assume that they haven't a common origin, and obviously they cannot have been all dominated by rakastan in the past. So I think that Ochaleans are the result of three cultures, the "asiatic" aborigenal, the rakastan and the alphatian, the Ochalean language should be a mix of the three language, and the population more "asiatic" than cypric, particulary if we assume that they have oriental faces... bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 14:51:54 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Belcadiz Language and the whole Belcadiz problem Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > Yes, but then why do they speak Ispan? How can 600 years old Belcadiz > have Ispan names, if they only recently (700 AC? 900 AC?) came in > contact with Thyatis? You're right again. There are only two possible solution, one to assume that the Belcadiz came from Thyatis, but you have to explain where the hell they stay for the first seven centuries of the Thyatian empire that nobody saw them, and why they were the only ispan people to go to Glantri, while ispan humans went to the Savage Coast two centuries after. I don't like it at all because you would have to add A LOT of uncanon history to Thyatis. BTW my first solution to assume that the Belcadiz learned spanish from Darokians in 700 AC doen't work because as you said there are centuries old elves with spanish names. So I'll do what I would have done if I would have write the Red Steel boxed set, I assume that thyatian and ispan traders arrived in the Savage Coast the first time around 100 AC, after the fall of the tortle civilization. The elves and oltec-nithian descended humans of the area probably yet spoke a sort of iberian language, but badly shaken by the humanoids invasions and greatly diminished in number, they gladly welcomed the traders and began to speak their language as a sort of common. Thyatian language mixed with iberian language as latin in RW Spain, and the process completed when many more ispan and thyatians traders and settlers came along with the traladarans around 450 AC. So we have a better explanation of the ispan migration of 900 AC too: they simply went to a place they knew quite well and where many of their traders had yet gone often in the past 8 centuries.... This way Espan and verdan languages could be born in the Savage coast and not transplanted from Kerendas, that IMO make more sense, and I can explain the common culture betwenn Belcadiz and the Savage Coast. And besides this way I can also use the uncanon idea of Belcadiz as migrated for religious struggles with the other elves of the Savage Coast, which I like a lot. For Darokian I think I'll use catalan, as a mix of neathar, thyatian, kerendan, traldar and some other language. > That's a perfectly reasonable choice, of course, though *I* do > otherwise > in my posts (e.g., I assume Lupins are common sight in Glantri, > Thyatis, > Heldann and Ylaruam). Now (1024 Ac Imc) I assume that lupins are quite a common sight in Glantri, an effect of the modernization of Glantri IMC (less racism against demihumans and lycanthropes and so on). bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 15:01:16 +0200 From: la Volpe Subject: Rakastas, Ochalea & Myoshima (...and Makai!) Hello all! I hope some of you have taken a look at the first part of my Revised Ethnography for Mystara! Unfortunately I didn't have the time to write everything (it was over 1:00 o'clock AM when I sent the file yesterday), and that's the most interesting part, so I hope I'll find the time this evening. Now, however, I'll give some preview of my work taking in consideration the issues of Rakastas and Ochalea. By the way, consider that my old Ethnography, the one found at the Vaults, is out of date. The "new" one to which I hope you'll look and refer is the one being posted in these days. Let's start from the Rakastas. Like Giampaolo (agathokles) and Marco (DM) pointed out, we studied the Rakasta articles by Bruce Heard and concluded that there are two original breed of Rakastas, indipendent from each other: the Davanian Rakastas and the Skothariana Rakastas (the issue of Cestia is a minor one, at the moment). These two groups descend from the original Rakastan breeds (Cave Rakasta and Rakastodon Fatalis). 1) The Davanian Rakastas develope the Mystaran equivalent of the African populations of Nilo-Saharian lanugage. Examples are the Simbasta, the Msongo and so on. This idea comes from the names of the Simbasta cultures and from the fact that their culture is modelled on the Real World's ones. This is the criteria used for all other correspondances we found, so I will not repeat it again for the other situations. (Note: This leaves the Tanagoro to be equivalent just to the African of Niger-kordafanian languages, like the Bantus, Swahili, Cameroon and so on.) 2) The Skotharian Rakastas develope the Mystaran equivalent of the populations of Austric language - the Thai, Viet, Polinesian, Malese, and in general the populations of South-Eastern Asia and Oceania (except the Papua and the Native Australians). An example are the Harimau-Belang Rakastas of Skothar. Using the Skotharian Rakastas as Austrics, we have at least two interesting explanations of the origin of some Mystaran cultures that pose problems as to their ethnography and/or linguistic history: a) It's important to note that we have at least one culture, the Myoshiman Rakastas, that resembles the Japanese culture. So I first tried to understand where the Japanese culture comes from. Unfortunately, from the linguistic point of view there is no clear evidence of the origin of the Japanese language. One of the most acceptable solutions (that I chose because it is ok with what happens on Mystara) is to say that the Japanese are the result of the mix of Uralo-altaic populations with Austric populations. Thus, to have a Japanese Rakastan culture, we just need to have the direct descendants of the original Skotharian Rakastas interact with the ancestors of the Ethengarians, or a related culture. Then, the Rakastas should be culturally (but IN NO WAY LINGUISTICALLY) influenced by a Mystaran-Chinese culture - this is needed to have the Myoshiman Rakastas writing in ideograms, as the Japanese ideograms are a reworking of the ancient Chinese ideograms, but the Japanese language has nothing to do with Chinese. I would like to ask Marco and Giampaolo to work on this subject especially since they have written a tentative history of the Rakastas in Italian, and I would ask Andrew Theisen if he thinks that this Chinese influence could have been transmitted by the Pachydermions. It would be very useful to have the Pachydermions the Mystaran Sino-Tibetans. In this hypothesis, they could also have influenced the Tagh Rakastas of Skothar, that are essencially the Mystaran equivalent of Tibetans - and thus need to be associated in some way to the Ochaleans. What if the Pachydermions contacted a minor Alphatian group, the Ochaleans, after their Landfall in BC 1000, because they were all followers of Koryis? Maybe they helped them to carve their own niche in Ochalea. I don't know, would it be possible? Anyway, I hope you will be able to find a way to concile the linguistic needs with what has been written so far. b) By the way, this could also explain why the Makai are culturally polinesian. During the Rakastan migrations all over the surface world, a Skotharian Rakastan population of Polinesian language (still a part of the Austric linguistic supergroup, and thus it's ok!) conquers the Makai. Probably this happened before the rise of the Taymora. When the Taymora expands towards the lands of the Makai, the Rakasta invaders leave, but the Makai have absorbed traits of their culture, although they remain of Neathar ethnicity, preserving their racial stock as presented in the "Hollow World" boxed set. Hopes this sounds interesting, that you like these ideas, and that this helps... Giulio ___________________________________ Nuovo Yahoo! Messenger: E' molto più divertente: Audibles, Avatar, Webcam, Giochi, Rubrica… Scaricalo ora! http://it.messenger.yahoo.it ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 15:13:55 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Steven Carter wrote: > No, they don't sound very typically Asian. Except I'm well aware that > Asian people run the gamut of human variety. > Likely? Does that mean the canon material specifically excludes other > origins or a composite origin? Are ALL elements of Ochalean culture > just Rakastan? Are some still Alphatian? Are other elements from > something else? Is it possible or is it left unsaid? ;) Ochaleans, ethengarians and yasukan have clearly asiatic cultures and languages in canon material (I would say chinese-indonesian, mongolian and malesian), even if they are three very different nations. But IMO It's very unlikely that they haven't a common origin. If you add to those three the many others uncanon oriental cultures of Skothar and Brun, you have to assume that all those people had a common origin in Skothar after the Great Rain of Fire, or the picture doesn't maky any sense, not racially nor linguistically, IMO. Bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 10:51:34 -0300 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Oh, sure, all those people had common roots but a current population such as Ochalea has a composite origin much as Korea today has been influenced by China, Japan and the western cultures. On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 15:13:55 +0200, Francesco Defferrari wrote: > Steven Carter wrote: > > No, they don't sound very typically Asian. Except I'm well aware that > > Asian people run the gamut of human variety. > > Likely? Does that mean the canon material specifically excludes other > > origins or a composite origin? Are ALL elements of Ochalean culture > > just Rakastan? Are some still Alphatian? Are other elements from > > something else? Is it possible or is it left unsaid? ;) > > Ochaleans, ethengarians and yasukan have clearly asiatic cultures and > languages in canon material (I would say chinese-indonesian, mongolian and > malesian), even if they are three very different nations. But IMO It's very > unlikely that they haven't a common origin. If you add to those three the > many others uncanon oriental cultures of Skothar and Brun, you have to > assume that all those people had a common origin in Skothar after the Great > Rain of Fire, or the picture doesn't maky any sense, not racially nor > linguistically, IMO. > Bye > Francesco > > > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/default.aspx > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:02:38 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Belcadiz Language and the whole Belcadiz problem Francesco Defferrari wrote: > > You're right again. There are only two possible solution, one to assume that > the Belcadiz came from Thyatis, but you have to explain where the hell they > stay for the first seven centuries of the Thyatian empire that nobody saw > them, and why they were the only ispan people to go to Glantri, while ispan > humans went to the Savage Coast two centuries after. Of course. My answers are: 1) They remained in marginal areas of the Empire; 2) They moved out because of the growing influence of the priesthood of Ixion among the Ispans. 3) Not all Belcadiz moved out -- for example, IMO the village of Casanegra in Torreon was founded by a relative of the Glantrian Fernando de Casanegra. 4) It is even possible that a small number of Ispan humans were present among the original Belcadiz -- only, they died out and their descendant look mostly elfin -- like dona Marianita Lucia de Leon y Valdez, who is a Belcadiz human (or demi-elf, if you like). > So I'll do what I would have done if I would have write the Red Steel boxed > set, I assume that thyatian and ispan traders arrived in the Savage Coast > the first time around 100 AC, after the fall of the tortle civilization. Ok, but this solution works by heavily modifying canon -- especially in that Ispans are supposed to arrive after the Traladarans, and to be recent colonists, making the area truly Savage for them. Note that for me modifying SC canon is not better than modifying KW canon. > And besides this way I can also use the uncanon idea of Belcadiz as migrated > for religious struggles with the other elves of the Savage Coast, which I > like a lot. Well, this is still possible, just swapping the SC elves with > For Darokian I think I'll use catalan, as a mix of neathar, thyatian, > kerendan, traldar and some other language. Nice :) We are considering the ``lingua franca'' as a mix of Alasiyan, Traladaran and Thyatian for the eastern Darokin tongue. OTOH, I'd probably use Traladaran for western Darokin and an Antalian/Dunharian/Thyatian creole (English-like) for central Darokin. Bye, -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:11:25 -0300 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: Rakastas, Ochalea & Myoshima (...and Makai!) On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 15:01:16 +0200, la Volpe wrote: > Hello all! > > I hope some of you have taken a look at the first part > of my Revised Ethnography for Mystara! Where? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:13:38 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Francesco Defferrari wrote: > > Ochaleans, ethengarians and yasukan have clearly asiatic cultures and > languages in canon material (I would say chinese-indonesian, mongolian and > malesian), even if they are three very different nations. But IMO It's very > unlikely that they haven't a common origin. Wait, Ethengarians are M-mongols (Altaic group), Ochaleans are M-chinese (Sino-Tibetans), and Yasukans are not specified. Therefore, I'd keep the Ethengarians out of the picture, and link them to other M-Uralo-Altaic cultures (especially the non-canon Tungusk, Saamari, Talmav and of course the Huleans). OTOH, the Ochaleans are Alphatians, in a large parte (and described as such, IIRC). Note that the Alphatians themselves are rather ``oriental'' in looks. Yasukan are, AFAIK, a cultural isolate. Stronger is the link between Ochalea and the Rakasta, as the Tagh of Skothar are M-Tibetans or the like (judging by the name), and Myoshimans are M-Japanese (and therefore somewhat related to M-Chinese, at least by a large number of vocabulary and cultural loans). Bye, -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:20:32 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Traldar History DM wrote: > So folks, here's my take on the history of the > Traldars. But before I start with the timeline, let me > point you out THREE IMPORTANT CANON THINGS TO > REMEMBER: I do agree: > 1. BC 1254 : Orcs moving northwards from Atruaghin > rampage and raze Athenos, a small commercial outpost > (GAZ11). Ahem, that was Akorros! > 3. Hollow World says that the Toralai tribe of Neathar > stock lived in the Thyatian mainland up to the arrival > of the Thyatians (in BC 600). As I said, this is not an important canon thing IMO but a contradiction with other canon: Neathar are quickly evolving 1000 years before the Thyatians arrived, therefore they can't be there *as such* in 500 BC. My opinion is that by 1500 BC there are no more ``Toralai'', just Traldar and Doulakki. > 4. GAZ8 says that the wars between gnolls and traldars So in the end we truly have *three* important canon things to remember :oP So now let's forget about n° 3, and go on with the discussion ;) -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:44:56 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Steven Carter wrote: > Oh, sure, all those people had common roots but a current population > such as Ochalea has a composite origin much as Korea today has been > influenced by China, Japan and the western cultures. Yes, I agree with a composite origin for Ochalea, only I disagree with the idea that ochalean are a result of alphatian and rakastan cultures only. This cannot be, IMO, because we have other mystaran people (like ethengarians and yasukan) who have clearly an oriental culture without any alphatian intervention and probably very little rakastan influence: so the roots of the ochalean culture and language have to be in an aborigenal "asiatic-like" people who originated yasukan and ethengarians too. I see modern Ochalea culture as 50% aborigenal, maybe 20% rakastan and not more than 20% cypric alphatian, and another 10% thyatian probably. If you wish to develop Ochalea you could use many more asiatic cultures than China and Japan only (besides China has so many different cultures that you could develop a whole fantasy world out of them). I think particulary about Indonesia, because the names Ochalea and Beitung are clearly indonesian names and the ochalean architecture as illustrated in DotE seems quite indonesian, Malesia, because the neighbour yasuko culture seem quite malesian, and maybe some region inspired by Corea, Taiwan, Vietnam. Maybe the indonesian region could be the more alphatian and thyatian one, the chinese region the more aborigenal, the japanese one the more rakastan and so on. I would avoid to use Cambodia, Burma, Thailand and northern China because I think similar uncanon cultures were yet placed in Skothar. bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:56:33 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Belcadiz Language and the whole Belcadiz problem Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > Ok, but this solution works by heavily modifying canon -- especially > in that Ispans are supposed to arrive after the Traladarans, and to > be recent colonists, making the area truly Savage for them. > Note that for me modifying SC canon is not better than modifying KW > canon. I don't think so, don't see any big change to canon (africa was still considered "savage" in 1800 even if europeans knew it and travelled to for centuries) and anyway I would prefer to modify ten times Savage Coast canon than modify just one time Known world canon. A matter of taste. :-) > We are considering the ``lingua franca'' as a mix of Alasiyan, > Traladaran and Thyatian for the eastern Darokin tongue. > OTOH, I'd probably use Traladaran for western Darokin and an > Antalian/Dunharian/Thyatian creole (English-like) for central Darokin. Nice, darokian had obviously a lot of influences and it's a good idea to develop many local dialects. bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 17:13:50 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > OTOH, the Ochaleans are Alphatians, in a large parte (and described > as such, IIRC). Note that the Alphatians themselves are rather > ``oriental'' in looks. > Yasukan are, AFAIK, a cultural isolate. I disagree. Obviously mongolians, indonesian, chinese and malesian are very different cultures and belong to different ethnic and linguistic groups but they still have ties and common origins in RW. If you link Ethengarians only to the uralo-altaic cultures of Mystara and not to the asiatic ones the results are that "Mystara mongols" are closer to "mystaran european" than to "mystaran chinese and indonesian", and that seems extremely illogic to me. RW malesian were not culturaly isolated and I think that in canon were clearly meant to be culturaly close to the ochalean, as indonesian and malesian are culturaly close in RW for many things. So I stick with my idea of a skotharian origin of oriental cultures of Mystara, that influenced the rakastan and was also influenced by them. Regarding Alphatian from some illustrations in DotE they seem to have a bit of babilonian/middle east culture, but I prefer to link that more to the nithians and the aboriginal Yanifey people than to their original culture of 1000 BC. To DM, I don't see the reason to have Ka create rakasta in two different places. Could not them be from Cestia like someone said? One group later went to Skothar and contacted the local oriental culture, so developing oriental rakasta of Brun (who maybe went to the western continent following the ethengarians) and oriental rakasta of Skothar, Ochalea and Myoshima, while the other group went to Davania developing the african rakasta as you wrote. Maybe I'm wrong because I don't recall well the rakastan article, but anyway a double origins seems to me a pointless complication. bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 17:21:27 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Traldar History DM wrote: > [Note: these tribes of Antalians are in fact the > SLAVIC component that is needed to make the Greek > Traldars become Slavic Traladarans. Reference to human > raiding the Five Shires are canon from GAZ8. We simply > decided to make them come from the north and be a part > of the Antalian stock.] Very Interesting, this seems the best explanation ever for the whole milenian/traldar problem. But the slavic component couldn't come from the people who inhabited thyatis before the Thyatians, so Toralai, Doulakki or anyway you would call them? sorry if this has been yet argued :-) Maybe both the antalians and the toralai brought the slavic component to Traladara? Anyway, I'll have to update my traladaran history file in the vault :-) bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 17:34:58 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Rakastas, Ochalea & Myoshima (...and Makai!) la Volpe wrote: > Let's start from the Rakastas. Like Giampaolo > (agathokles) and Marco (DM) pointed out, we studied > the Rakasta articles by Bruce Heard and concluded that > there are two original breed of Rakastas, indipendent > from each other: the Davanian Rakastas and the > Skothariana Rakastas (the issue of Cestia is a minor > one, at the moment). Ops sorry, I mentioned DM about this issue responding to Giampaolo, but really I meant you. b) By the way, this could also explain why the Makai are culturally polinesian. During the Rakastan migrations all over the surface world, a Skotharian Rakastan population of Polinesian language (still a part of the Austric linguistic supergroup, and thus it's ok!) conquers the Makai. Well, then according to my skotharian oriental culture theory :-) the Makai would be a mix between Neathar (canon) probably ancestors of the taymorans, and original ochalean-like people who came from the Sea of Dawn. Sorry but I prefer this than to assume that the rakastan simply left the island without leaving any mark in ierendian history. The whole problem about lupins and rakastas, IMO, is that even if they are quite a good idea and very peculiar of Mystara, they were created much later than the original setting and were the creation of one person only, and so they don't always fit well in Mystara. For the sake of the coherence of the cultures and languages of Mystara, rakastans and lupins should be used the less possible, IMHO. bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 17:57:20 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Belcadiz Language and the whole Belcadiz problem Francesco Defferrari wrote: > > I don't think so, don't see any big change to canon (africa was still > considered "savage" in 1800 even if europeans knew it and travelled to for > centuries) Well, weren't you considering an early *colonization* by Thyatians? That would be different from simple *knowledge*. > and anyway I would prefer to modify ten times Savage Coast canon > than modify just one time Known world canon. A matter of taste. :-) Of course. Bye, -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 17:58:45 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Francesco Defferrari wrote: > > I disagree. Obviously mongolians, indonesian, chinese and malesian are very > different cultures and belong to different ethnic and linguistic groups but > they still have ties and common origins in RW. If you link Ethengarians only > to the uralo-altaic cultures of Mystara and not to the asiatic ones the > results are that "Mystara mongols" are closer to "mystaran european" than to > "mystaran chinese and indonesian", and that seems extremely illogic to me. Given their location, right in the middle of a large number of M-european nations, I can't see how it could be otherwise. Anyway, you must consider that there is also a Goblinoid influence to the Ethengar, which can explain other differences. > RW malesian were not culturaly isolated and I think that in canon were > clearly meant to be culturaly close to the ochalean, as indonesian and > malesian are culturaly close in RW for many things. So I stick with my idea > of a skotharian origin of oriental cultures of Mystara, that influenced the > rakastan and was also influenced by them. I'm losing you here. M-Malesian and M-Indonesian, AFAIK, are the Rakasta. They certainly have a connection with the M-Chinese/Ochalean. > To DM, I don't see the reason to have Ka create rakasta in two different > places. Could not them be from Cestia like someone said? I said it. DM doesn't like it, IIRC, because he wants to limit the sea-based migrations of the Rakasta. Since there were actually *two* initial breeds, his hypotesis is not far fetched as it might seem. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 18:50:22 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Belcadiz Language and the whole Belcadiz problem Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > Well, weren't you considering an early *colonization* by Thyatians? > That would be different from simple *knowledge*. Not a real colonization, just trading and settling of a limited number of people, like Genua in medieval times or arab merchants in east africa: swahili developed as an arab-african trade language and later become the common language of many east african nations. Ispan-thyatians traders and some settlers (a very limited number of people, and so not mentioned in canon) could have diffuse their language in the Savage Coast starting in 100 BC, and so when thousands of thyatian speaking settlers went to the Savage Coast in 900 AC they found that the human, dwarves, halfling and elven population of mixed origins had yet a common language, the espan, and in about a century they abandoned official thyatian or their various thyatian dialects to speak espan, being espan just the local form of thyatian and very similar to their own dialect, from which resulted. So I assume that originally the Ispan people of Thyatis doesn't spoke real espan (spanish) but a sort of thyatian dialect (latinized spanish, archaic spanish, latinized catalan or something similar) and true espan developed in the Savage coast from mystara iberian (oltec, nithian, dwarvish, elven and so on) and thyatian. This explain why Belcadiz speak spanish in Glantri in 730 AC and have spanish names, while there isn't any spanish name nor spanish place in the Thyatian empire territory and colonies. bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 20:18:47 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > Given their location, right in the middle of a large number of > M-european nations, I can't see how it could be otherwise. > Anyway, you must consider that there is also a Goblinoid influence to > the Ethengar, which can explain other differences. I cannot break my RW ideas so much: in RW I know that mongolian and chinese culture have many ties and similarities (the mongolians even conquered China for many centuries, as we know) so I don't see the need to completely separate Ethengarians and Ochaleans in Mystara, when you can simply rule that existed a common oriental culture in Skothar, as the famous map in the Master set seem to tell us, BTW. If during one adventure my players should met an ethengarian, and then later an ochalean, thay would immediatly recognize them as very similar, simply because I would have to describe them so. If I'd tell them later that there is no connection whatsoever between the two cultures, they'll think that I'm mad, ora is mad the setting, or the people who devised it :-) Mystara was often accused of having too much different cultures without logical ties, no need to aggravate things moreover Imo :-) Obviously you could developed an ochalean culture very different from the ethengars as described in their Gaz, but the two close mongolian and chinese inspirations would be clear anyway, I think. That is, the likeness exist and cannot be eliminated, so we could simply link the two cultures in Mystara, too, at least a little. > I'm losing you here. M-Malesian and M-Indonesian, AFAIK, are the > Rakasta. They certainly have a connection with the > M-Chinese/Ochalean. I wrote before because Ochalea seems to have some indonesians elements, and mostly I don't like to use the rakasta to explain human cultures in Mystara. Ehi, I love cats and have two in my house :-), but rakastas and lupins should not be too much important in Mystara, because they're really a late creation. I try to explain mystaran cultures according to what I think probably the author thought of them: the creator of Ochalea sure didn't thought of rakasta, because they haven't been developed yet, so I prefer to link their oriental cultures to the oriental cultures of Skothar (even if we have only the Master map about this). BTW, in Dragon 247 I don't see anything very malesian or indonesian, so why rakasta should be M-malesian and indonesian? Poor Wizard Almanac II (and III) says that "Yasuko are probably related to Ochaleans - they share similar appearance": it seems clear to me that "similar appearance" should stand for "asiatic" not for alphatian. Yasuko could be a malesian name, malesia is neighbour to indonesia and so malesia could be a good inspiration for Yasuko tribal lands. > Since there were actually *two* initial breeds, his hypotesis is not > far fetched as it might seem. ? according to Dragon 247 there was an original family descended from Ba-steh who populated Mystara travelling everywhere. I don't think that Bruce Heard wrote where this family lived, but from the names I would say alphatian lands or maybe the Isle of Dawn, so from there rakastas could have travelled quite easily everywhere, with only limited travel by sea... (BTW many monkeys don't like water but we do, and tigers and various breeds of cats swim quite well :-) bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 23:31:07 +0200 From: la Volpe Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History > > I disagree. Obviously mongolians, indonesian, > chinese and malesian are very > > different cultures and belong to different ethnic > and linguistic groups but > > they still have ties and common origins in RW. If > you link Ethengarians only > > to the uralo-altaic cultures of Mystara and not to > the asiatic ones the > > results are that "Mystara mongols" are closer to > "mystaran european" than to > > "mystaran chinese and indonesian", and that seems > extremely illogic to me. > The problem is that RW Mongols are probably more related to RW Europeans than to RW Malese and Indonesians. Giulio ___________________________________ Nuovo Yahoo! Messenger: E' molto più divertente: Audibles, Avatar, Webcam, Giochi, Rubrica… Scaricalo ora! http://it.messenger.yahoo.it ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 23:50:14 +0200 From: la Volpe Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History > From a common "proto-oriental" culture developed > from Afridhi, Oltecs, > Thonians, Peshwa and the immortals only know what > more came people who later > formed the Ethengar people and the other oriental > cultures of Brun, where > they arrived around 2500-2000 BC, I think. Other > went to Alphatia, I tell you again: their real world counterpart do not have such a common origin. The things go something like this: Humans --->1.Africans --->2.Others -------------->2.1. Eurasians -------------->2.2. Southeastern Asians -------------->2.3. Australians & Papua Eurasians include Indoeuropeans, Semites, Camites, Finns, Uralo-altai, Turk-mongols, Chinese. NOTHING TO DO with Polinesians, Indonesians, Thai, Viet, Mon-khmer. Giulio ___________________________________ Nuovo Yahoo! Messenger: E' molto più divertente: Audibles, Avatar, Webcam, Giochi, Rubrica… Scaricalo ora! http://it.messenger.yahoo.it ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 23:53:56 +0200 From: la Volpe Subject: Re: Rakastas, Ochalea & Myoshima (...and Makai!) --- Steven Carter ha scritto: > On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 15:01:16 +0200, la Volpe > wrote: > > Hello all! > > > > I hope some of you have taken a look at the first > part > > of my Revised Ethnography for Mystara! > > Where? > I sent a message to the list, called "Basical Ethnic and Linguistic Guidelines for Mystara (1 of 3)". Any comment regarding my takes at Ochalea? 8-) Giulio ___________________________________ Nuovo Yahoo! Messenger: E' molto più divertente: Audibles, Avatar, Webcam, Giochi, Rubrica… Scaricalo ora! http://it.messenger.yahoo.it ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 00:54:33 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History la Volpe wrote: > The problem is that RW Mongols are probably more > related to RW Europeans than to RW Malese and > Indonesians. But they are very close geographically, racially and linguistically to chinese, and Ochalea has a lot of chinese names, too. And RW mongols obviously are related to other asiatic populations as they are to european at best, and surely not less. They are absolutely not closer to european than to chinese, even if some tenth of thousand years ago mongolians and indoeuropean were the same people: that group included northern chinese, tibetans, coreans, japanese and siberians too! In the meantime mongolian and europeans separated and europeans mixed with other populations, while mongolians and asiatic formed lasting historical bonds. So if certainly would make sense to have ethengarians related to both neathar and ochaleans or other asiatic cultures, and even more to neathar than to the oriental cultures of Skothar, it doesn't make any sense to have them related only to Neathar and not to other "asiatic" cultures of Mystara, imo. Regarding Ochalea how could have developed a chinese/indonesian culture from the alphatian one (at best a little babilonian but certainly non chinese..) if not from an indigenous oriental people? You could use rakasta but you'll have to explain how they developed a chinese/japanese culture (Ochalea and Myoshima) so similar to the Ethengarians without any contact with them. A bit curious, looking on the obvious likeness of japanese, mongolian and chinese cultures in RW. Let me explain that anybody do as he please and if you like to make ochaleans whole alphatians with funny names, ethengarians unrelated to any other, yasukan alone in the wild and so on you're free to go and write gazeteers about this :-) but personally I think it's not very consistent with canon, nor with the real world, and I think it's a lot simpler and cleaner to have a mother asiatic culture in Skothar (originated from Oltecs as the Hollow World boxed set told us) than to use multiple and complicated origins for every canon and uncanon oriental culture of Mystara. bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 01:06:35 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History la Volpe wrote: > Eurasians include Indoeuropeans, Semites, Camites, > Finns, Uralo-altai, Turk-mongols, Chinese. NOTHING TO > DO with Polinesians, Indonesians, Thai, Viet, > Mon-khmer. I know, you're not the only one to have read Cavalli-Sforza, Giulio. Still, if racially and linguistically germans and mongols were a bit closer in the past than mongols and indonesians, in medieval times, after many thousands years of history, mongolians and indonesian were a lot closer culturally than mongolians and germans. Ethengarians are not mongolians of twenty thousand years ago, they are mongolians of 1300 DC. One thing is to say that ethengarians are more linked to neathar than to ochaleans, another thing is to say that two cultures, one mongolian and one chinese, should not had anything in common whatsoever. It would seem nonsense in the game, imo. bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 17:27:30 -0700 From: Brendan Corliss Subject: Problems w/ RW=Mystara (was Ochalea, Belcadiz, etc.) After following along with on going discussions concerning filling in the gaps in canon material, it occurs to me that the parallel between Mystara and the Real World is something of a dual edged sword. On one hand, it makes Mystara so much more relatable and familiar than ANY other setting. On the other, trying to using RW examples as the yardstick to which all issues of Mystara to be measured creates many unresolvable inconsistencies. Quite simply, I don't think the creators of Mystara put that much thought into it. Now, of course, I'm not privy to the inner thoughts of Aaron Allston, Bruce Heard, et al, but I think most of us would agree that they used RW examples as simple guidelines to add flavor to the setting. This is not an insult or criticism of them (quite the opposite), I just get the feeling that 100% realism and RW compatability were lesser priorities than making a fun and interesting setting to play D&D in. As an example, look at the Traldar(Slavic)/Milenian(Greek) connection. In Mystara, Milenian culture evolved from the Traldar, whereas in the RW, the opposite is true (somewhat). Of course, this is a bit oversimplified, but in the general sense it is accurate. It works for Mystara, though... as long as we don't try to extrapolate the consequences too much. Simply put, I wonder if we (Mystaraphiles) get too caught up in the minutae of things sometimes. I must certainly confess to falling into this trap myself at times, but I think it's important to remember to remember that to a certain degree that there are certain issues that can NEVER be resolved in Mystara because they were created with no concern for how they fit together. I think Francesco alluded to it; Mystara has evolved some much over the years with all the products that have come out over the years. Things have been added and expanded on where the original authors/creators hadn't even considered certain aspects of the setting. This has naturally led to some real contradictions in canon. Let's face some things in two different products contradict each other 100%. Fan material has exascerbated this even further. To me, that's just the nature of the beast - the setting was designed (IMHO) to be inspired by the RW but not based literally on it. Of course, I'm not telling anyone how they should feel about Mystara, or what they should discuss. I'm simply throwing out the idea that sometimes we (myself included) get too obsessed with fixing everything when not everything is fixable. Heck, RW history is subjective and contradictory to a certain degree, too. Anyway, just my 2 kopecs worth. -Damon AKA Brendan Corliss Corliss Enterprises Darkoin City ===== May all your endeavors be Gold! _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 19 Oct 2004 to 20 Oct 2004 (#2004-225) ****************************************************************