Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 20 Oct 2004 to 21 Oct 2004 (#2004-226) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 22/10/2004, 18:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 20 messages totalling 1115 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History (8) 2. Problems w/ RW=Mystara (was Ochalea, Belcadiz, etc.) (2) 3. Ethengarians and RW Mongols (2) 4. OCHALEA (3) 5. TRALDARS (5) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/default.aspx To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 09:59:12 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Francesco Defferrari wrote: > > In the meantime mongolian and > europeans separated and europeans mixed with other populations, while > mongolians and asiatic formed lasting historical bonds. So if certainly > would make sense to have ethengarians related to both neathar and ochaleans > or other asiatic cultures, and even more to neathar than to the oriental > cultures of Skothar, it doesn't make any sense to have them related only to > Neathar and not to other "asiatic" cultures of Mystara, imo. OTOH, there's no specific need for the *chinese* components of Ochalea to come from their relation with the proto-Ethengar (who, as I said before, should be related with other northern and western brunian peoples of the uralo-altaic stock/linguistic family). > Regarding Ochalea how could have developed a chinese/indonesian culture from > the alphatian one (at best a little babilonian but certainly non chinese..) IIRC, Ochaleans are not any different, physically, from other (common) Alphatians. Culturally, there's something to explain, of course, but we can do it, without using humans. > if not from an indigenous oriental people? You could use rakasta but you'll > have to explain how they developed a chinese/japanese culture (Ochalea and > Myoshima) so similar to the Ethengarians without any contact with them. A > bit curious, looking on the obvious likeness of japanese, mongolian and > chinese cultures in RW. I do have an explanation for this, indeed. The M-Altaic component in modern Rakasta (Myoshima) is accounted for in my hypothesis, as one of the main Rakasta civilization would be that of Plaktur, which was heavily influenced by the local M-Altaics (Huleans and the like). I go with one of the theories on Japanese that makes it a stratification of Austronesian, Altaic and Chinese contribution. I suppose that the original Skotharian Rakasta languages fall in the Austronesian group (supported by semi-canon evidence on Malacayog, and canon evidence on the Harimau-Belang). Then, the Rakasta settled in Ochalea and Plaktur. In Ochalea, they later took on M-Chinese traits (which I suppose to be native to Ochalea, though a northern origin is not impossible). In Plaktur, they got in touch with the M-Altaic humans, and developed a mixed language (ancient Myoshiman). The later exodus of Ochalean Rakasta to various areas inhabited by the Rakasta would give the needed M-Chinese contribution. Now, on the origin of Ochalean language, I do not think it to be related to Alphatian (even though canonically it is so!). Moreover, I do not think Ochalean (and in general M-Sino-Tibetan) has a human origin at all. Let me point to the fact that, apart from the Ochaleans, the only speakers of such languages are non-humans (Lupins, Rakasta, and we might also assume the Foo Dogs and Ogre Magi that we know from the Lupin history). Moreover, the only cultures outside ochalea that bring traces of M-Chinese influence are the various Rakasta. Personally, I would credit Foo Dogs with the introduction of M-Chinese, since neither the Lupins nor the Rakasta apply. On the subject of a common origin of the Oriental nations of Mystara, I must point out the fact that it is simply impossible to find a common ethnic origin for the Ochaleans (Alphatians) and M-Altaic (Oltec/Neathar). As to Alphatians, I'd consider them much more diverse than they are usually presented. Apparently, there is at least a strong ``Babilonian'' group (especially people from Ambur, judging by the Princess Ark crew), as well as a sort of ``European'' groups (Pure Alphatians) and a group (Cypri) with slanted eyes and a copper complexion (and brown to red hair), not to mention the injection of Oltec and Antalian stock after Landfall. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 12:05:48 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > OTOH, there's no specific need for the *chinese* components of > Ochalea to come from their relation with the proto-Ethengar (who, as > I said before, should be related with other northern and western > brunian peoples of the uralo-altaic stock/linguistic family). Obviously you're right, no specific need whatsoever, but given what we know about the RW, it would be logical. The ethengarian culture that we have in the gaz it's not an original mongolian culture, it's the mongolian culture of 1300 AC, with many chinese elements in it, so I like to have all the oriental cultures of Mystara linked in some way. > IIRC, Ochaleans are not any different, physically, from other > (common) Alphatians. > Culturally, there's something to explain, of course, but we can do > it, without using humans. Sure, now you can use rakasta, but it seems strange to me that rakasta developed alone a chinese-like culture so similar to the ethengarian one. And before the rakasta were developed what would have you do? I used to think that ethengarian and ochaleans had a common mother culture in Skothar years before the rakasta were created. The uncanon oriental cultures developed by some people in Skothar are a confirmation of my idea, I think. > In Ochalea, they later took on M-Chinese traits (which I suppose to > be native to Ochalea, though a northern origin is not impossible). > In Plaktur, they got in touch with the M-Altaic humans, and developed > a mixed language (ancient Myoshiman). > The later exodus of Ochalean Rakasta to various areas inhabited by > the Rakasta would give the needed M-Chinese contribution. It's an explanation good as any other, but I find it a bit complicated, when you could simply think that rakasta appeared in the sea of Dawn region and then some went to Ochalea, where they found a chinese-like culture, while some went to Brun, where they found ethengarian-like people. The Myoshima culture instead could be an original creation of the rakasta from mixed influences as you said. > Let me point to the fact that, apart from the Ochaleans, the only > speakers of such languages are non-humans (Lupins, Rakasta, and we > might > also assume the Foo Dogs and Ogre Magi that we know from the Lupin > history). > Moreover, the only cultures outside ochalea that bring traces of > M-Chinese influence are the various Rakasta. Yes, but I would like to use an oriental Skothat that someone developed, with Mystaran versions of imperial China, Burma, Thailand, Cambodia and so on, so I really need an original oriental culture in Skothar anyway. I don't like to give to rakasta all this cultural influence because they are a late creation of Mystara, even if I like them very much. > On the subject of a common origin of the Oriental nations of Mystara, > I must point out the fact that it is simply impossible to find a common > ethnic origin for the Ochaleans (Alphatians) and M-Altaic > (Oltec/Neathar). Why? after the Great Rain of Fire the Oltec/neathar group colonized large regions of Brun, forming the canon ethengarian, hulean and similar cultures, so they could have colonized a bit the sea of dawn region too. You could use them as a native population of Ochalea and maybe Bellisaria and of some alphatian mainland regions (and yasuko tribal lands), and you could explain their relative small historical influence with the hypothesis that they are been absorbed by alphatian or yanifey in every place but Ochalea, where because of the grudges between non wizards cypric settlers and alphatian government, ochalean was adopted as the official language and the original oriental culture surivived and prospered, moreso after the thyatians took the island. > As to Alphatians, I'd consider them much more diverse than they are > usually presented. Apparently, there is at least a strong > ``Babilonian'' > group (especially people from Ambur, judging by the Princess Ark > crew), > as well as a sort of ``European'' groups (Pure Alphatians) and a group > (Cypri) with slanted eyes and a copper complexion (and brown to red > hair), not to mention the injection of Oltec and Antalian stock after > Landfall. I agree that Alphatia is a whole continent, with mixed populations both from the original alphatian world and indigenous of mystara, then should have a great number of different cultures. I would like to use aramaic as the alphatian language, only if I could find an electronic aramaic-italian or aramaic-english dictionary :-) I would like also to write regional gazeteer for Alphatia, Ochalea and Skothat, if only I had some time :-) bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 12:21:41 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Problems w/ RW=Mystara (was Ochalea, Belcadiz, etc.) Brendan Corliss wrote: > Of course, I'm not telling anyone how they should feel > about Mystara, or what they should discuss. I'm simply > throwing out the idea that sometimes we (myself > included) get too obsessed with fixing everything when > not everything is fixable. Heck, RW history is > subjective and contradictory to a certain degree, too. You are obviously very right, I try not to get too obsessed :-) Anyway with the discussion of the last days I've been able to understand and enlighten the origins of Belcadiz elves (even if I disagree with the thyatian theory and prefer my savage coast theory :-) the origins of traladarans and milenians (and about this I agree with DM about a mixed traldar/antalian origin) the origins of ethengarians and ochaleans (IMO, two different migrations from the same oriental mother culture of Skothar) and the origins of rakasta and their culture (IMO, they were influenced by oriental peoples in the sea of dawn region but later developed an original japanese culture). So I think that all the discussions have been very very useful, to me at least, and I think that's possible to make sense about quite all the mystaran cultures, even if this wasn't the original intent of the authors. I agree that there is no point to search for an exact correspondence between Mystara and the RW, but we can use the RW as a source of inspirations, as the original authors did. bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 04:11:42 -0700 From: DM Subject: Ethengarians and RW Mongols Well folks, first let me apologise: I'm sorry for having brought this big mess up thus causing so much stirring in the List. Maybe it would have been better to lay low ;) Anyway, since I don't have time to reply individually to each of the posts, I'll handle some issues separately by creating new topics. ah... there's a sense of reminiscence in all of this (we've already discussed these things in another board ;p) So let's start with... ETHENGARIANS (or ETHENGARS?) Many people here consider the Ethengarians as the RW Mongols and think they come from the same "cultural cradle" that spawned Ochalean because in the RW Mongols and Chinese were neighbours and had common roots. However folks, this is Mystara we're talking about here, and you must consider first and foremost Mystara's history from the canon sources. The sources say that the Ochaleans ARE Alphatians, and as I pointed out, Alphatian facial features only slightly resemble Asian features. However Ochalea's culture and names sound definitely Chinese. So it's not possible that OCHALEANS (Alphatians) have ANYTHING to do with Ethengarians (who are NOT ALPHATIANS and who don't have a Chinese-like culture). The explanation for the Ethies' culture is to be found in the influence of Akkila-Khan's goblinoids, as agathokles clearly explained over the Italian Mystara Boards. Indeed if we look at the goblinoid history and culture, we can see that the goblinoids originate in Urzud (north-west of Denagoth, in the Borean Valley) and later split in two groups in BC 1700: one travels south-east (Loark and Akkila-Khan) another travels south-west (settling in the Cradle and the Yazak steppes). Loark's humanoids conquer the Antalians and absorb their culture and naming, while Akkila-Khan and his horde gets straight to Ethengar razing the Ethies and later enslaving them working with Loark. > From them (check out GAZ12) the Ethies learn to use the horse and all of their military tactics, and are then able to overthrow Loark by allying with Akkila-Khan, betraying him after Loark's horde was out of Ethengar. Now this means that probably the "Mongolian" influence on the Ethies culture (which before the coming of the goblinoids was just a stock of nomadic more Oltec-less Neathar herders, prolly tied to the same Oltecs who colonized Skothar creating first the Peshwa and later the Jennite cultures) comes from the goblinoids of Akkila-Khan (later known as the immortal Yagrai). This is even more reinforced by the fact that the immortals Yamuga and Tubak worshipped by the Ethies are likewise worshipped with VERY SIMILAR NAMES (Tabak and Yamag) by the goblinoids of the Yazak steppes, who lived a thousand miles APART from Ethengar ! Now, since the obvious link is the goblinoid culture before the migration from Urzud in BC 1700, it is clear to me that the Mongolian taint was brought to Ethengar by humanoids. And those same humanoids retained their cultural background when they settled in the Broken Lands (check out in GAZ10 the names of the Yellow Orcs, descendants of Yagrai, to verify ;)) I'm eager to hear your opinion on this. ^_^ DM __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 04:36:01 -0700 From: DM Subject: OCHALEA I'll post the tentative chronology for the rakasta sooner or later, when I have time, so you can check by yourself that we haven't rewritten Mystaran history and indeed rakasta play a far more important role than one might think. For now let's talk again about Ochalea. You must take into account the facts, not the speculations. From these one can build as many theories as he wants, but we must not discard the facts. As I have highlighted, Ochalea was settled by ALPHATIAN commoners between BC 1000 and BC 600 (most likely). I am not saying they didn't fight, but most certainly they didn't have an allout war, since there is no mention of this (and a major war of colonization should have been accounted in the historical data of the empire). More likely the Alphatians settled, fought for some more land until they came to a truce with the native Lupins and Rakasta, who by this time were probably not so numerous. Alphatians and Ochaleans ARE IDENTICAL in appearance. Alphatians are different in that they don't pay so much attention to immortals and are not as philosophical as Ochaleans. So the difference stays in the CULTURE not in the RACE (or ETHNICITY) of the people. And the culture is not something that grows spontaneously, it is something that is created on the basis of interaction with a social environment. So I can say the Chinese culture of Ochalea is the byproduct of the unique blending of the original Oriental culture of rakasta and lupins living there AND of the later Alphatian addition. Ochalean tongue is different from Alphatian in both writing and pronunciation, so this is prolly due to a strong influence of the preexisting rakasta-lupin civilization (who also borrowed something from the Ogre-magi), and the result is nowadays Ochalea. I don't see why this could be so strange to accept, especially since it takes into consideration every canon source. You'll prolly be more persuaded when I post the whole rakasta timeline ;) As for the Yasuko tribesmen, bear in mind that we don't know a thing about them (apart from the Japanese-Korean sounding name and their savage attitude). FWWK they could also be rakasta ;) DM __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 05:17:46 -0700 From: DM Subject: TRALDARS You got me on this one, Giampaolo. The Three Important Points to remeber were indeed... FOUR! :p Anyway, we cannot "forget" the existance of the Toralai in the Thyatian Mainland because they are there by canon sources, and this particular source doesn't conflict with any other information on the area. We cannot think they're doulakki either, because their culture and names are not "hellenistic" as the doulakki culture you need, Giampaolo. So go with the Traldar colonists and call them doulakki if you want (altho I find this convention useless), that won't change what they are: Traldars. ^_^ As for the Traldars, they were not SLAVIC in origin. They are definitely GREEK, and the logical base for the Milenians. I advise all of you who think they were slavs to read the entry for the Traldars in the Hollow World: here we see they have customs, names, features of the ancient Greeks of the golden age. The slavic influence which transformed them into TRALADARANS must then come from somewhere else, from some other culture. We cannot use toralai because of two reasons: 1. they couldn't have crossed the border with Karameikos because that was the Vyalia's region and so it was not viable. They couldn't have sailed there because they are not sailors and don't know sailing techinques (I refer to their canon description in Hollow World sourcebook). So they were stuck in the Thyatian mainland, contained west by Vyalia, south by the sea, north and east by the Nithians, the sea and the mountains. 2. they couldn't have been Slavs because from what little description we got in HW, they're buffalo hunters with tanned skin (similar to Atruaghin even if these are NEathars while Atruaghin are Oltecs) and their names don't sound Slavic at all ;) So we have to go with the only hook left: the humans who razed the Five Shires and were later forced out of them. These must be the slavs who merged with the Traldars left after the gnoll invasions and formed the Traladaran culture. ;) DM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 15:04:28 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: OCHALEA ----- Original Message ----- From: "DM" > As for the Yasuko tribesmen, bear in mind that we > don't know a thing about them (apart from the > Japanese-Korean sounding name and their savage > attitude). FWWK they could also be rakasta ;) It's clearly say in canon that they are humans: they resemble ochaleans in facial features, and obviously not the rakasta ochaleans :-) If you believe that ochaleans are cypric alphatian then we have there an alphatian population that went to davania nobody know when, and reverted to a tribal society nobody knows why. I think it's clear that the author of the II and III almanac had in mind oriental cultures and oriental facial features both for ochaleans and yasukan, and I like to stick to it. Anyway your explanations about ethengarian culture coming from humanoids and ochalean culture coming from alphatian and rakastan is coherent, but I don't find it satisfyng for two good reasons (Imo) : A) This way you still have an ochalean chinese culture and an ethengarian culture very far apart but which bore a neat likeness to each other. Mongolian and chinese medieval cultures DO have a clear likeness. You cannot deny it nor dismiss it without chianging them a lot. I don't like to change the ethengarian and ochalean cultures to eliminate the many similarities that mongolian and chinese cultures have, so I like to link them, at least with a common origin. B) Rakasta should not be used to explain human cultures like ochalea because rakasta didn't existed in Mystara when those cultures were created! rakasta are the latest creation of Mystara and I cannot use them to explain anything simply because I played ten years without knowing about them, and I don't want to change my world now. And if a canon product had ever used rakasta to explain things written ten years before the rakasta, I would have hated it and never used it. Nothing is more annoying in a fantasy setting than later changes. And that's all I have to say on the matter :-) bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 15:11:33 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: TRALDARS ----- Original Message ----- From: "DM" > So we have to go with the only hook left: the humans > who razed the Five Shires and were later forced out of > them. These must be the slavs who merged with the > Traldars left after the gnoll invasions and formed the > Traladaran culture. ;) And that's very convincing and consistent, I'll modify my traladaran history accordingly when I have a bit of time :-) bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 09:12:48 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: TRALDARS ============================================================ From: DM So we have to go with the only hook left: the humans who razed the Five Shires and were later forced out of them. These must be the slavs who merged with the Traldars left after the gnoll invasions and formed the Traladaran culture. ;) ============================================================ Why not have the slavs be the gnoll's themselves? It would not be the first time humanoids left a mark on a civilization in Mystara. I don't think that a culture that razes the Shires, could also build one next to it. Otherwise the hin would be semi-slavic as well. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 15:59:39 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Francesco Defferrari wrote: > > The ethengarian culture that we have in > the gaz it's not an original mongolian culture, it's the mongolian culture > of 1300 AC, with many chinese elements in it, so I like to have all the > oriental cultures of Mystara linked in some way. That's true. However, one should consider where the mongolian and chinese elements come from. For the mongolian elements, there's no problem -- they just come from the Neathar/Oltec ``M-Altaic'' mix. > Sure, now you can use rakasta, but it seems strange to me that rakasta > developed alone a chinese-like culture so similar to the ethengarian one. Indeed, it is unlikely, for the Rakasta original cultures seem to be (1) Austronesian (Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines) and (2) Nilo-Saharian (Masai) Therefore, Rakasta might have been a vector for M-Chinese traits, but not the originators. > And before the rakasta were developed what would have you do? Well, let's say that luckily Bruce developed the Rakasta ;o) > It's an explanation good as any other, but I find it a bit complicated, when > you could simply think that rakasta appeared in the sea of Dawn region and > then some went to Ochalea, where they found a chinese-like culture, while > some went to Brun, where they found ethengarian-like people. The Myoshima > culture instead could be an original creation of the rakasta from mixed > influences as you said. But then you would need to explain the M-Tibetan Tagh Rakasta (in central Skothar) by the same token -- which makes for an interesting task. > Yes, but I would like to use an oriental Skothat that someone developed, > with Mystaran versions of imperial China, Burma, Thailand, Cambodia and so > on, so I really need an original oriental culture in Skothar anyway. I don't > like to give to rakasta all this cultural influence because they are a late > creation of Mystara, even if I like them very much. There's a problem with setting all of these in Skothar. We already have part of M-Indocina, in Patera (Kompor-Thap is probably Vietnam, Selimpore is likely Singapore, Malacayog are the Philippines, and Surabayang may be Borneo) Moreover, M-Tibet exists in Skothar, but it's a Rakastan land. Same for Indonesia (Sherkasta and Cloud Pardasta). This may lead to a duplication of cultures. There are a few missing cultures (the more Chinese-like Indocinese areas, basically) but these create additional problems (they would be Rakasta + M-Chinese), so M-Chinese must be tackled first. > You could use > them as a native population of Ochalea and maybe Bellisaria and of some > alphatian mainland regions (and yasuko tribal lands), and you could explain > their relative small historical influence with the hypothesis that they are > been absorbed by alphatian or yanifey in every place but Ochalea, where > because of the grudges between non wizards cypric settlers and alphatian > government, ochalean was adopted as the official language and the original > oriental culture surivived and prospered, moreso after the thyatians took > the island. Whatever grudge they may bear against wizards, I doubt the Cypri would change their culture for that reason -- why not simply adopting Cypri rather than Alphatian or Ochalean? We might say that either the ``Alphatian'' colonists of Ochalea were not really Alphatians, but came from Skothar as slaves of the Alphatians, or that for some reason there is an Alphatian nation that is M-Chinese. In both cases, an interesting solution might be found. Possible solution Facts: 1) Ethengar (and Yellow Orcs), Myoshima, Bellayne, and the Tagh have M-Chinese (or if you prefer M-Sino-Tibetan) traces 2) There's no known M-Chinese nation save Ochalea, which is too young to have actually influenced any of these others 3) There are several M-SE-Asian nations, mostly of Rakastan (Sherkastan) origin, both on Mystara (Bay of Tangor) and Patera 4) There's a castle in Ethengar built by a long-deceased wizard named Sargon; this castle seems to attract a number of lycanthropes You may see that along with the better known facts I have listed also the Lion Castle. Now, we have a wizard who builds a *castle* in Ethengar -- not something an hakomon would do, IMO. His name is Sargon -- something that can link him with Alphatia more than with any KW nation. Lycanthropy may strengthen this link, as Alphatians are credited with introducing certain magical diseases (bear, IIRC). What if the missing link between Ochalea and Ethengar is actually Alphatia? We have two opportunities: either there is an M-Chinese Alphatian nation, or the Alphatians found a group of M-Chinese somewhere in Alphatia or Bellissaria. Then, they might have moved some of these M-Chinese in one of their colonization attempts to Ethengar. If these M-Chinese were Alphatians, then we may assume that they simply moved to Ethengar, Ochalea, and Skothar (where they influenced the Tagh). Otherwise, we may assume that they were brought to Ochalea and Ethengar by the Alphatians, and that the Tagh simply absorbed a small group of Skotharian relatives of these M-Chinese. As for the Yasuko, they may have been a group of fugitives from Ochalea (this should work in any hypotesis). > I would like also to write regional gazeteer for Alphatia, Ochalea and > Skothat, if only I had some time :-) :) -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 10:13:44 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: OCHALEA Lets also remember that Ethengars worship spirits, Ochaleans are philosophical and revere immortals. So they are not alike at the core beliefs. I don't belief the two cultures ever had any contact with eachother. If they did, it would have to be by the carrier of the true "Mongolian" identity, the humanoids that gave the Ethengar theirs. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 17:59:48 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Ethengarians and RW Mongols DM wrote: > > The explanation for the Ethies' culture is to be found > in the influence of Akkila-Khan's goblinoids, as > agathokles clearly explained over the Italian Mystara > Boards. Thanks :) > This > is even more reinforced by the fact that the immortals > Yamuga and Tubak worshipped by the Ethies are likewise > worshipped with VERY SIMILAR NAMES (Tabak and Yamag) > by the goblinoids of the Yazak steppes, who lived a > thousand miles APART from Ethengar ! Yep, this is the main point to link Midlands, Yazak Steppes and Ethengar into a great continuum. However, Francesco has a point when he says that the Ethengar represent a stage of the mongol history where Chinese influence cannot be ignored. Therefore, I now would say that, while our conclusions are still largely correct, a modern M-Chinese influence should be added to Ethengar. I hope that my earlier post (reply to Francesco about Ochalea) can address some of these issues. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 18:07:26 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: TRALDARS Chris Cherrington wrote: > > Why not have the slavs be the gnoll's themselves? We have a couple of reason for not using the gnolls or other humanoids -- we actually thought more of orcs than gnolls, but the motivation apply as well. 1) Known (preserved) Gnoll culture is not M-Slavic (e.g., the Graakhalians, gnolls in Traladara) 2) Slavic cultures were used in a non-canon work that we (or at least I) wished to preserve compatibility with, that is the Empire of Zuyevo. There, they are human (relatives of the Antalians). As this position is coherent from the point of view of the Ethnographic History (while having Slavic culture originating in a gnollish population creates some problems). It is not wholly impossible, mind you, just hard to support without a modern survival of Slavic goblinoids somewhere in the KW. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 13:10:49 -0300 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Hi Folks, Look, I never intended to offend anyone's sensibilities with my first post on this subject nor my few responses but I will say this much: Thanks for the overwhelming outpouring of opinion and (laugh now) projectile regurgitation of facts! :D I wanted to contribute in some creative and meaningful way by tackling the lack of material about Ochalea but you have to admit it's impossible to know where someone can build new material when there are no property lines. And if someone wants to contribute to a community one either has to ask like I just did or find a map somewhere. There is no true map (unless someone has everything ever written and knows it inside out). So you guys are just great to save me the time and money ;) of painfully researching all this for myself. (Don't worry, I've been collecting stuff from eBay, local 2nd hand shops and SVGames for a while but some things are impossible to get so far.) Very interested to see where this leads. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 18:11:52 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: TRALDARS DM wrote: > > Anyway, we cannot "forget" the existance of the > Toralai in the Thyatian Mainland because they are > there by canon sources, and this particular source > doesn't conflict with any other information on the > area. As I already mentioned, the presence of the Toralai is IMO largely incompatible with the fact that the Neathar culture was "rapidly evolving" a millenium before the arrive of the Thyatians. If they were rapidly evolving, simple logic will tell that there cannot be ``true'' Neathar in KW when after a few centuries of ``rapid'' evolution. Therefore, I still feel free to ignore the Toralai and replace them with the Doulakki. Anyway, this won't change much, since in the end you're forced to use them as well... -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 18:17:45 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Problems w/ RW=Mystara (was Ochalea, Belcadiz, etc.) Brendan Corliss wrote: > > Of course, I'm not telling anyone how they should feel > about Mystara, or what they should discuss. I'm simply > throwing out the idea that sometimes we (myself > included) get too obsessed with fixing everything when > not everything is fixable. Heck, RW history is > subjective and contradictory to a certain degree, too. Of course, you are right. Still, I feel that something may be done to fix some issues. The Ethengar issue is an example, where we managed to find some pointers to the goblinoid influence that helped us clarify some points of Mystara's history. Bye, -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 18:48:32 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Steven Carter wrote: > > I wanted to contribute in some creative and meaningful way by tackling > the lack of material about Ochalea but you have to admit it's > impossible to know where someone can build new material when there are > no property lines. That's also the good part... if you don't like our ideas, you're absolutely free to ignore them ;) -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 14:17:43 -0300 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Um, not really. Then it's hardly a community is it? It's just me writing discontinuous c**p that barely, if at all ties into what has gone before. In which case I could write that the Alphatians are in fact a colony of mutant Blackmoorian albino space monkeys that travelled through time when their ship's mad human captain sent their ship through a black hole. After they colonized the world they went looking for their homeworld (Mystara) but found it just in time for Alphaks to destroy their new colony. I mean, I could write stuff like that ;), and I've gone to the theatre to watch stuff like that, but why? I don't agree with everything I'm ready and I'm sure I'll have to ignore a few things and bend a few other things but I'd like to try to be PART of the group rather than just write c**p. Steve On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 18:48:32 +0200, Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > Steven Carter wrote: > > > > > I wanted to contribute in some creative and meaningful way by tackling > > the lack of material about Ochalea but you have to admit it's > > impossible to know where someone can build new material when there are > > no property lines. > > That's also the good part... if you don't like our ideas, you're absolutely free to ignore them ;) > > > -- > > Giampaolo Agosta > > http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/default.aspx > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 16:36:58 -0700 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History --- Steven Carter wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Look, I never intended to offend anyone's > sensibilities with my first post on this subject nor > my few responses but I will > say this much: > > Thanks for the overwhelming outpouring of opinion > and (laugh now)projectile regurgitation of facts! :D > > I wanted to contribute in some creative and > meaningful way by tackling the lack of material about > Ochalea but you have to admit it's impossible to know > where someone can build new material when there are > no property lines. And if someone wants to contribute > to a community one either has to ask like I just did > or find a map somewhere. There is no true map (unless > someone has everything ever written and knows it > inside out). > > So you guys are just great to save me the time and > money ;) of painfully researching all this for > myself. (Don't worry, I've been collecting stuff from > eBay, local 2nd hand shops and SVGames for a while > but some things are impossible to get so far.) > > Very interested to see where this leads. > > Steve Hey, Steve- Sending this to you instead of the list, as some of what I have to say can possibly be seen as not very flattering. I hope you're not getting discouraged in your desire to build on Ochalean history and cultures. I know it can get difficult sometimes, because some people become so entrenched in their ideas of what Mystara is, and what has come before, etc. There are several figures who rely on "canon" as the end-all be-all of everything, and will throw references out as their means of justifying their position (I tend to do the same right back at them, actually, though I don't know if the point is ever taken. ;) Other people have created some fan material of their own that they cling to, and even (particularly if there is no or little other development of such over time) hold it up as a sort of "canon" themselves- sacred and sacrosanct, and anything else is just going to be torn down. Sometimes people hold to both of those positions. It is unfortunate, and some really creative and bright people have been turned off of the list over the years as a result- James "Mystaros" Mishler, who has created some of the most well thought out and creative pieces of Mystara fan material, only lurks now and then, because at various times over the years, people have taken him to task for his "version" of events and how it isn't "canon". (The irony is, IMO, that nowadays it seems so many people really try very hard to fit his vision of events into their own. Just shows you how times change.) In the end, though, I think you'll find that the majority of the listers are very accepting and open to new ideas and that it tends to foster creativity more than it hampers it. You just have to take what a couple of the more vocal naysayers say with a grain of salt and move on and do what you want to do. As I mentioned in another post, there also come those times when it just isn't possible to reconcile everyone's versions of things, so you have to do your best. My version of the Isle of Dawn and its history don't mesh entirely with James Mishler's version. I love his works, but some elements don't match my vision, and there are some elements (like in his Blackmoor history, for example) that are too far out for my tastes in Mystara- but which are well thought out and brilliantly realized nevertheless. Another example would be- I've been working on a version of the northern lands of Wendar/Denagoth and Ghyr (from XL-1: Quest for the Heartstone) that don't mesh with the Wendar/Denagoth timeline that DM and Shawn Stanley came out with many years ago. There are just elements that I either don't like, or that in my opinion don't work they way they described, so what do you do? Your only options in those situations are to compromise your vision (which is never very satisfying- after all, if you don't really have your heart in what you're doing, why bother?), or to go your own way entirely, or to find some sort of workaround- either leave enough vagueness in the places where the conflict arises to allow people to decide which they prefer, or to simply avoid those conflicting areas in the first place. Either of the last two is, IMO, perfectly viable, though each leads to its own complications and possibly extra work. Anyway, the bottom line is that I think your ideas as I've heard them so far are very interesting, and I'm interested in seeing more and being of any assistance I can. I think that's what most people who have commented feel like doing, though they may not always do it in the most politic way, or have the greatest sense of tact in how they approach it. So again, I hope you haven't become discouraged, and I hope you continue to work on Ochalea. If I can be of any help, let me know! Looking forward to hearing more from you, Andrew "Cthulhudrew" Theisen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 17:27:10 -0700 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History --- DM wrote: > Because of the different breeds living in areas so > distant from one another, all over Mystara, we have > deduced that Ka created rakasta in two different > places (Davania and Skothar) and from these two > starting points the rakasta moved through all of > Mystara, usually traveling on land (using the > natural brigdes that linked Skothar to Brun and > Davania before the Great Rain of Fire) and only > rarely by sea (for those who settled in the Arm of > the Immortals). Why did they need to be created in two different places? Couldn't they simply have originated in one place and emigrated elsewhere just like so many other races did? (If anything, the article seems to imply this in the origin tale- "In the millenia that followed, the original family grew, diversified, and left their home. They traveled to faraway lands and claimed them..." Seems to imply a singular origin to me, but it is an apocryphal tale, so it could be taken many ways I suppose.) > Ochalea was inhabited by rakasta and ogre-magi from > the beginning, with little or no human population. > Later lupin houndlings escaping from Taymor arrived > in Ochalea and after a while grouped with rakasta to > defeat the ogre-magi (around BC 1500). The fusion of > lupin, rakasta and ogre-magi cultures got Ochalea > its distinct chinese flavour. This is all supposition, here, though. Those articles don't give any dates, nor do they mention whether humans were present in Ochalea at the time you mention or not. And there is definitely no mention of Taymor. If anything, the lupins could not have arrived prior to 1050 BC. The article states that "New blood, including some pervasive gnoll stock, was brought to the weaker, original Hutaakan stock, which created several initial breeds of lupins..." Since gnolls were not created in Nithia prior to 1050 BC, the lupins certainly could not have appeared prior to this. Unless you want to presume that the history of the article as related by Sir d'Aboisfort is wrong, in which case you might as well not bother referencing anything in the article as "genuine". As for the lupins helping the rakasta against the Ogre-Magi, again, there is no indication of this in either article. The ogrish chow-chow, in the lupin article, are mentioned as being helped in their liberation by "foo-dogs and clans of friendly lupins (shar-pei mercenaries and Ochalean crested)". The only rakasta breed that is mentioned as living on Ochalea (in the rakasta article) is the Pardasta, and their entry mentions nothing about their history on Ochalea. > Blackmoor was located on Skothar, north of Thonia, > and is now where the north pole should be (but since > there's a big hole, there is no more Blackmoor to > speak of). This is derived from canon sources > (Hollow World, all gazetteers, adventures DA1-4). Actually, DA1 implies a closer connection than Skothar, for the Comeback Inn "was carried away from its former site by the moving glacier- eventually to surface in the area called the Broken Lands." I don't know of many glaciers that make transcontinental migrations, but this is a fantasy world, I guess... DA2-4 don't really discuss the location of Blackmoor at all, relevant to Mystara anyway. > According to DA1-4 and the new Blackmoor d20, Peshwa > and Afridhi have nothing to do with Chinese or > Japanese. Their appearance is of Oltec-Neathar stock > (more Oltec for Scythian-like Peshwa, which are > probably the ancestors of later Jennite tribes) and > their naming has nothing to do with a > Chinese-Japanese culture. That's why I don't think > it's safe to make this assumptions, sorry Steven ;) Their names don't really follow Oltec or Jennite conventions either, for that matter. For that matter, HW claims that the Ethengar are of Oltec/Neathar stock themselves (p. 9, HW DM's Guide). Personally, I don't really buy it, but if you're going to point to "canon" to support your point of view, you've got to be willing to accept it all, or else be able to bend a little, which is a point I think is being lost in this thread. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 20 Oct 2004 to 21 Oct 2004 (#2004-226) ****************************************************************