Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 21 Oct 2004 to 22 Oct 2004 (#2004-227) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 23/10/2004, 18:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 21 messages totalling 1330 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History (10) 2. Ochalea & Ethengar (6) 3. Ochalea (3) 4. Doulakki [was: Belcadiz] 5. M-Malaysian (was Investigating Ochalean History) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/default.aspx To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:02:50 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Steven Carter wrote: > > I mean, I could write stuff like > that ;), and I've gone to the theatre to watch stuff like that, but > why? There may be reasons -- for one, you might write for your campaign. E.g., Francesco mentioned he doesn't use some of the later products, because his campaign started 20 years ago, when that material was not available. This, for example, means that there are fewer Lupins in his Mystara than in mine. Obviously, each of us will write in a different perspective. A second possible reason is to offer an (hopefully) interesting variant. For example, my "End of the Known World" timeline is a variant of WotI where Darokin doesn't survive the war. Of course it's not even canon-like, let alone being compatible with other fan products. But that's the point to it -- it's a *variant* (then, it might not be that interesting, but that's another issue ;) ). A third reason is that sometimes canon is not coherent, and people may not (actually, likely won't) reach an agreement on which solution is better. Then, it's better to have two versions of the same thing than none at all. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:03:44 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Andrew Theisen wrote: > > Sending this to you instead of the list, as some of > what I have to say can possibly be seen as not very > flattering. Well, you're lucky you didn't write anything too bad :oP -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:24:56 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Andrew Theisen wrote: > > (If anything, the article seems to imply this in the > origin tale- "In the millenia that followed, the > original family grew, diversified, and left their > home. They traveled to faraway lands and claimed > them..." Seems to imply a singular origin to me, but > it is an apocryphal tale, so it could be taken many > ways I suppose.) Yes. That's why I located the creation in Cestia. However, consider that there were two different subraces of Rakasta (Cave Rakasta and Rakastodon Fatalis) since the very beginning, which may point more to DM's solution. > Since gnolls were > not created in Nithia prior to 1050 BC, the lupins > certainly could not have appeared prior to this. There's some evidence that the history related by Museau d'Aboisfort is not to be considered factual. First, the fact that lupins are *not* a crossbreed of Hutaaka and something else. Hutaaka bloodlines are quite rare, as are gnollish bloodlines. But the decisive fact, IMO, is that lupins existed in the Steppes much earlier than 1050 BC, as related by the SC book, which sets the formation of larger lupin tribes at the goblinoid invasion of 1700 to 1300 BC. At this point, I'm quite sure that Lupins must have existed *before* 1700 BC. Then, of course, you might still say that there's no mention of Lupins in Taymor and that there's no fixed date for the Ogre Magi vs. Lupins conflict in Ochalea. Note, however, that not considering Aboisfort's account as factual does not force us to discard the rest of the article, since that account is clearly IC, while the rest of contents (those not in italics, IIRC) is OOC. Bye, -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 03:38:48 -0700 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History --- Steven Carter wrote: > On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 02:40:44 -0700, DM > wrote: > > > The only race that can link Skothar to Ochalea are > > the RAKASTA, and we must refer to the article > > featured on Dragon Magazine where Bruce describes > > the various breeds of rakasta that live on Mystara. > > > Ochalea was inhabited by rakasta and ogre-magi > > from the beginning, with little or no human > > population. Later lupin houndlings escaping from > > Taymor arrived in Ochalea and after a while grouped > > with rakasta to defeat the ogre-magi (around BC > > 1500). The fusion of lupin, rakasta and ogre-magi > > cultures got Ochalea its distinct chinese flavour. > > So when the Alphatians arrived they settled the > island peacefully? And the new arrivals (how many) > adopted the culture of the indigenous > ogre-magi/lupin/rakasta? (how many, or at least what > ratio?) As I noted in a response to another post, the information above isn't ever really explicitly stated anywhere. To answer your questions in order, though, Steven: 1) All we really know about Ochalea is essentially what Dawn of the Emperors tells us: It was "[s]ettled in the centuries after Alphatian landfall by common Alphatians with no magical potential." That and that it, "... provided a lot of grain to the Alphatian Empire in the five centuries before the first Thyatian/Alphatian War." The latter statement seems to imply, at least to me, that Ochalea was settled by Alphatians sometime c. 500 BC. As I've noted elsewhere, though, I'm a proponent of the theory that there were other human settlers on Ochalea prior to Alphatia's arrival. Seems likely, given a) Ochalea split off of the Isle of Dawn landmass post-Great Rain of Fire, and b) all the other (and lesser) islands in that sea were settled by humans at some point (the Alatians, the Pearl Islands, the Thanegioth Archipelago, the Isle of Dawn, Oceania, Cestia, etc.) > Were the rakasta ever spirited away somewhere else? No idea. That was something that I originally made up for the Pateran timeline, and which I don't even currently hold to (instead choosing the other route, that they were driven off by Alphatians, and that Myoshima was a colony they had founded prior to Alphatians arriving.) > Were they dumped there as a remote work camp? The description doesn't seem to bear that out. It seems to imply that the Alphatians who went to Ochalea went there to escape the overbearing laws of the mainland magocracy. I'd say it was voluntary (and I'd imagine many of the mages were happy to see the mundaners go, for that matter.) > Did they escape from Alphatia as part of a revolt by > oppressed people? Doesn't seem to be the case. However, again, there does seem to have been something along these lines happening with the Yanifey at one point, and in attempting to "flesh out" the very skim Alphatian timeline, several writers (fan writers)- such as Geoff Gander and myself, as well as others- have suggested that there were other indigenous peoples on the Alphatian mainland that may have been driven off by the Alphatian intruders post-Landfall. > Is there anything that says Ochalea is part of the > Alphatian Empire in the period 700 BC - 1 BC? Or is > it a sovereign nation? Yes, according to Dawn of the Emperors, for at least the period of c.500 BC to 0 BC, Ochalea is a dominion of the Alphatian Empire. Then, when the Thyatian/Alphatian war breaks out "...the Ochalean king saw the opportunity to establish complete independence for his nation and threw his lot in with King Lucinius." Didn't work out too well for him, though, as the Thyatians immediately moved in (and assassinated the king, to boot!) > Why would it be sovereign if Alphatia is sending > colonial missions farther west to the Sea of Dread? It wasn't. It was just as sovereign as any kingdom on the mainland, though. IE, I think they have tremendous leeway to do what they want, but if they grow too cocky, the Council and/or Emperor/Empress can quash them. > > No mention of a major war to settle in Ochalea > > means IMO that these Alphatians settled peacefully, > > bringing with the the cult of Koryis, which blended > > easily into the rakastan and lupin Ochalean > > tradition (the Celestial Court). > > No mention? Doesn't exclude it. Maybe it wasn't a > war. Lots of people collaborate with "invaders" to > secure a better position in the new world order. Exactly. There was very little space in Dawn of the Emperors to devote to every little war and everything else that needed to be covered (I wish they hadn't set their nets so wide, myself), and there is certainly room in the timelines for further elaboration. Heck, covering all the wars that must have surely raged across the Isle of Dawn would be quite an undertaking, and yet I for one don't doubt that they happened, simply because they weren't explicitly mentioned. > > That's why Ochaleans are basically an offshot of > > Alphatian common stock! :) > > Basically? So what about the rest? Is it further > speciation of the Alphatian stock as they become more > and more interbred? Is that likely in that area and > for the initial population? Or is it a result of a > racial fusion over centuries to millennia? As you suggest (and I agree) either explanation is just as likely. Particularly, as you said earlier, in a fantasy world. :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 03:52:43 -0700 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History --- Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > Yes. That's why I located the creation in Cestia. > However, consider that there were two different > subraces of Rakasta (Cave Rakasta and Rakastodon > Fatalis) since the very beginning, which may point > more to DM's solution. That's true. I see where you this theory was coming from here. > There's some evidence that the history related by > Museau d'Aboisfort is not to be considered factual... > > But the decisive fact, IMO, is that lupins existed > in the Steppes much earlier than 1050 BC, as related > by the SC book, which sets the formation of larger > lupin tribes at the goblinoid invasion of 1700 to > 1300 BC. > At this point, I'm quite sure that Lupins must have > existed *before* 1700 BC. Ahh... I hadn't thought to check the Savage Coast materials. Darn it! Yet another contradictory "canon" source!!! Curses! Good call, though. I'll have to revise my thinking... and FWIW, I always thought that the 100 BC thing was far too short a period for the development of so many Lupin breeds... > Then, of course, you might still say that there's no > mention of Lupins in Taymor and that there's no > fixed date for the Ogre Magi vs. Lupins conflict in > Ochalea. We'd presumably have to tie the Ogre-Magi in with the Ogrish race from which they come, though. Since the Ogrish migration from Urzud (and later, Sind) doesn't happen until c.1300 BC, I'd presume the Ogre-Magi don't reach Ochalea until sometime afterwards. Again, though, they could have split from the rest of the ogres earlier, I guess. > Note, however, that not considering Aboisfort's > account as factual does > not force us to discard the rest of the article, > since that account is > clearly IC, while the rest of contents (those not in > italics, IIRC) is OOC. True, I guess I was going a bit overboard. I still don't see lupins and rakasta working together, though- but I think that may just be a legacy of my ingrained "dogs and cats: mortal enemies" thinking. Speaking of which, there was a news item on tv the other day about a dog that had adopted several kittens, and was nursing them. Slow news day? ;) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 03:57:47 -0700 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History --- Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > Andrew Theisen wrote: > > > Sending this to you instead of the list, as some > > of what I have to say can possibly be seen as not > > very flattering. > > Well, you're lucky you didn't write anything too bad > :oP D'OH! I thought for sure I had sent that back to just Steven... I was worried he might get discouraged by all this back and forth, and not continue his work. I guess it isn't that inflammatory, though. Just didn't want to take any chances that a "canon vs. non-canon" debate might rage again, since they never go well, and that's why I was bringing it offlist, or thought I was... oh, well. :p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:30:23 +0200 From: la Volpe Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History > > What if the missing link between Ochalea and > Ethengar is actually Alphatia? We have two > opportunities: either there is an M-Chinese > Alphatian nation, or the Alphatians found a group of > M-Chinese somewhere in Alphatia or Bellissaria. > Then, they might have moved some of these M-Chinese > in one of their colonization attempts to Ethengar. > If these M-Chinese were Alphatians, then we may > assume that they simply moved to Ethengar, Ochalea, > and Skothar (where they influenced the Tagh). > Otherwise, we may assume that they were brought to > Ochalea and Ethengar by the Alphatians, and that the > Tagh simply absorbed a small group of Skotharian > relatives of these M-Chinese. > > I tinkered with this idea two days ago, before deciding I hadn't time to write it down. I was thinking something about this lines: Consider that Alphatia is a vast Empire on Mystara. Not only, originally it comprised entire planets. So why should we think that the Alphatians are all alike? Ethnically we know that there are two "races": the true Alphatians, ethnically like the original Alphatians, and the common Alphatians, ethnically like the original Cypri. We can assume that the Ochaleans are a group (maybe the Cypri? or a subrace of the Cypri?) that spoke a M-Chinese language originally. Somehow, they were a minor, philosophical, group, in the shadow of the major ones (Air and Fire Followers), that ultimately sided with the Air Followers. Here we have two options to explain the nature of these "Alphatians-who-speak-or-spoke-Chinese-before-Landfall": a) the Ochaleans effectively speak M-Chinese, a different language from Alphatian; they could have been: a1) the original Cypri a2) a subrace of the Cypri a3) another conquered race In any case they have been ethnically absorbed, but continue to speal their language. I would refuse the fourth hypothesis, "Ochaleans are an Alphatian subrace", because it would mean that Alphatians are Sino-Tibetans, something I am inclined to refuse because of the names of the cities and kingdoms of Alphatia Mainland and Bellissaria b) the Ochaleans already spoke Alphatian at the time of Landfall, but had and have preserved the Chinese names; in this case, we have two possible explanations for this: b1) the Ochaleans, conquered by the Alphatians, continued to call themselves with their traditional names even if the language was more or less lost; b2) the Ochaleans were a philosophical movement that tried to recapture the feelings and ideals of a lost culture or time of Alphatian history, and thus they began to rename themselves, their children etc. with old Ochalean names; moreover they tried to recover traces of the language, of the writing and so on, developing their characteristic ideogram system that later, on Mystara, would influence the writing system of the Myoshimans; In any case, the Ochalean language, however, influenced the Alphatian language, creating, along with the languages of the various conquered nations, Classical Alphatian (the language at the time of Landfall, 1000 BC). Do you like one of these possible explanations? ___________________________________ Nuovo Yahoo! Messenger: E' molto più divertente: Audibles, Avatar, Webcam, Giochi, Rubrica… Scaricalo ora! http://it.messenger.yahoo.it ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:33:38 +0200 From: la Volpe Subject: Ochalea & Ethengar I would also like to point out that influences of the Mongol culture on the Chinese and vice-versa were not significant on the ethnic and linguistic point of view until 1200 circa, when the Mongols, just one of the many hordes of the steppes, invaded and conquered China. Thus, we can easily drop M-Chinese influences on the Ethengarians, and if we choose for the Ochaleans to be similar to the Zhuon dinasty China (the one with Confucio and the various philosophical schools), we can easily drop M-Mongol influences on the Ochaleans, too... Giulio ___________________________________ Nuovo Yahoo! Messenger: E' molto più divertente: Audibles, Avatar, Webcam, Giochi, Rubrica… Scaricalo ora! http://it.messenger.yahoo.it ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 15:04:51 +0200 From: la Volpe Subject: Re: Ochalea & Ethengar ...but if we really want to push it further, let's see what we can do to tie Chinese and Mongol on Mystara... What about this: 1) A group of Oltec-descended humans live in the areas of northern Brun, Midlands etc. 2) Here they trade with the Neathar 3) It's before 20'000 BC: language is just beginning to be used by the humans. Rise of the Human Languages. The Neathar and Oltecs of northern Brun develope the first "Neathar language" (equivalent to the RW Nostratic, the ancestor of all Indoeuropean, Semite, Camite, Uralo-altaic and Kartvelic languages), while the Oltecs of southern Brun develope the first "Oltec language" (equivalent to RW proto-native-american), and the Tanagoro develope the first "Tanagoro language" (equivalent to RW proto-niger-kordafanian, the ancestor of Bantu, Swahili, Cameroon tongues etc.). 3) However, a marginal group of Oltecs, located somewhere between Borea and Wendar, develope another one of the "original languages": the Mystaran equivalent of proto-sino-tibetan. 4) When the Beastmen are created, they are neighbours of these M-Uralo-Altaic. The Beastmen, who don't have a language of their own, take the language from them. Maybe a small number of Ogres are neighbours of the M-Chinese and become the Ogre Magi. 5) After the Great Rain of Fire, the M-Chinese move toward the Known World, they are the ancestors of the Ethengarians. M-Chinese settle in Ethengar. The Ogre Magi may either remain with the Humanoid Hordes, or leave with the M-Chinese (or a little of both). 6) Akkila Khan and his hordes reach Ethengar, enslave the M-Chinese and force them to change culture and language. Note: as we are speaking only of LANGUAGE and CULTURE and not ethnicity, there is no problem in assuming that genetically and ethnically the M-Chinese could have been Mongol to start with, or viceversa, that the Ethengarians are genetically and ethnically M-Chinese (or a mix of the two, although this mix must have been very old). The M-Chinese culture of Ethengar would be lost ALTHOUGH the Ogre Magi could have left Ethengar when Akkila Khan arrived and settled Ochalea (how exactly?) and preserved at least part of this culture. Now we must still decide why the Ochaleans are M-Chinese. Referring to my previous posts on the matter, there would be a couple of possibilities: a) Ochaleans are M-Chinese since the time of Landfall, before the Old Alphatian Empire was destroyed (see previous post for the exact explanation of this): in this case, their speaking M-Chinese would simply be a coincidence, a case of parallel evolution exactly like those of Averoigne and Klantyre from Laterre b) Ochaleans are NOT M-Chinese but become M-Chinese because of the contact of the Ogre-Magi (and, if you prefer, also because of the contact with some M-Chinese from Ethengar that arrived along the Ogre Magi). The problems of this second option are: b1) how did the Ogre Magi arrive on Ochalea? Why did they choose Ochalea? Were there M-Chinese from Ethengar with them? b2) why did the Ochaleans leave their Alphatian culture? do the Ochaleans speak Alphatian or M-Chinese? and if they speak Alphatian, why do they use M-Chinese names and not Alphatian ones? Note that when I say M-Chinese or not, referring to the Ochaleans, I only refer to LANGUAGE and CULTURE, not to ethnicity. Clearly, Ochaleans are of Alphatian ethnicity, not in any way M-Asian. Comments? Giulio ___________________________________ Nuovo Yahoo! Messenger: E' molto più divertente: Audibles, Avatar, Webcam, Giochi, Rubrica… Scaricalo ora! http://it.messenger.yahoo.it ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 07:39:17 -0700 From: Herve Musseau Subject: Ochalea I found this mention particularly interesting: >> What if the missing link between Ochalea and Ethengar is actually Alphatia? We have two opportunities: either there is an M-Chinese Alphatian nation, or the Alphatians found a group of M-Chinese somewhere in Alphatia or Bellissaria.>> Because it made me make the following mental connection: I remember that seomone, I think Marco, devised a legend surrounding MChina (of the MOrient project) that would explain why there is so little contact: there is a legend from MChina that when contact would be made with the west, Alphatia would be destroyed. For some reason the Alphatians took it seriously, and the prediction came to pass when Alphatia sank during WotI. What if this has something to do with the Ochaleans, or anyway that Alphatia did know about MChina and that led somehow to the creation of Ochalea and the interdiction (by imperial Alphatia) of contact between MChina and the nations of Brun? Comments, especially by those more knowledgeable than me about MOrient, and particularly by the author of that half-remembered myth that stuck in my memory, would be much welcome. ===== ___________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 12:39:38 -0300 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: Ochalea I like this legend. In fact I LOVE it! However... heh heh... my goal is really to make some native-Mystaran Chinese civilization fit into the works. And I don't see why not considering that GAZ 12 clearly states on page 3 that the Blackmoor catastrophe introduced spirits into Mystara. Some merged with the land while others sought out a people to interact with. They found the Ethengars "... a race of yellow-skinned, hunter-gatherer humans that had existed on the fringes of the Blackmoor civilization..." Then "For a thousand years the Ethengars wandered the northern wastes until they reached a sheltered land where the grass grew tall and all manner of animals roamed. The Ethengars domesticated them, particularly the hardy horses of the steppes." Guess they were horse semi-nomads before the goblins showed up. They sowed grain too. If there was room on the edge of Blackmoor for the Ethengars then there's room on the edge for another "yellow-skinned" group. Or groups because Asia is diverse. In this case though I'd prefer to make it the littoral areas and the people more sea-going than land-based. And I'd like them to settle 500 years before the Ethengars do to give them more time to develope. I would love the legend to have something to do with the Ochalean question. It's definitely in my list of keepers now. On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 07:39:17 -0700, Herve Musseau wrote: > I found this mention particularly interesting: > >>What if the missing link between Ochalea and Ethengar is actually Alphatia? > We have two opportunities: either there is an M-Chinese Alphatian nation, or > the Alphatians found a group of M-Chinese somewhere in Alphatia or > Bellissaria.>> > Because it made me make the following mental connection: > I remember that seomone, I think Marco, devised a legend surrounding MChina (of > the MOrient project) that would explain why there is so little contact: there > is a legend from MChina that when contact would be made with the west, Alphatia > would be destroyed. For some reason the Alphatians took it seriously, and the > prediction came to pass when Alphatia sank during WotI. What if this has > something to do with the Ochaleans, or anyway that Alphatia did know about > MChina and that led somehow to the creation of Ochalea and the interdiction (by > imperial Alphatia) of contact between MChina and the nations of Brun? Comments, > especially by those more knowledgeable than me about MOrient, and particularly > by the author of that half-remembered myth that stuck in my memory, would be > much welcome. > > ===== > ___________________________________________________________ > Herve Musseau > http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ > > _______________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! > http://vote.yahoo.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/default.aspx > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 12:50:20 -0300 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: Ochalea And I should add, a civilization that does not rely on non-human, demi-human or alien influence for providing whole cloth their culture, language and religious expression. :D I don't mind large pieces or enormour influence but I think humans are capable enough of providing that diversity. On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 12:39:38 -0300, Steven Carter wrote: > I like this legend. In fact I LOVE it! > > However... heh heh... my goal is really to make some native-Mystaran > Chinese civilization fit into the works. And I don't see why not ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 12:54:37 -0300 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History I can go along with a Cypro/Alphatio-Chinese segment of the Alphatian immigration circa 1000 BC for part of the Ochalean culture. But I am loath to use any non-human, demi-human or alien plot device as the explanation for the diversity and complexity of native human culture. I know, I know, this isn't Earth and the Ochaleans are Alphatians. I disagree with the necessity of reliance upon non-human/alien cultures to explain whole cloth a presently human culture. IMO there is no reason why some of the Chinese elements for Ethengar and Ochalea cannot go back to the Blackmoor era when GAZ12 "The Golden Khan of Ethengar" clearly states on page 3 paragraph 4 that the spirits drawn into the world by the Blackmoor Catastrophe found a yellow skinned people that lived on the edge or fringe of the Blackmoor civilization. I can even say that the current state language of Ochalea is Alphatian or the Cypro-Ochalean dialect of Alphatian and that there are other native-to-Mystara dialects or languages and ethnic groups present on the island. Including culture-contributing groups of lupin and rakasta. We can say the Cypro-Ochaleans allied with the Air camp but were not believers. I would like to say that this group were more integrationists but found the Air camp less distasteful than Fire. When they made planetfall on Mystara they decided to go their separate way. However they still amounted to 99% commoners and a few nobles. Now is it possible that some elements of the ogre-magi group survived intact on Ochalea but survived peaceably with the lupins and rakasta and had a hand in the peace development of human civ'n? On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:30:23 +0200, la Volpe wrote: > > What if the missing link between Ochalea and Ethengar is actually Alphatia? We have two opportunities: > > either there is an M-Chinese Alphatian nation, or the Alphatians found a group of M-Chinese somewhere in Alphatia or Bellissaria. Then, they might have moved some of these M-Chinese in one of their colonization attempts to Ethengar. If these M-Chinese were Alphatians, then we may assume that they simply moved to Ethengar, Ochalea, and Skothar (where they influenced the Tagh). > > Otherwise, we may assume that they were brought to Ochalea and Ethengar by the Alphatians, and that the Tagh simply absorbed a small group of Skotharian relatives of these M-Chinese. > I tinkered with this idea two days ago, before deciding I hadn't time to write it down. I was thinking something about this lines: > Consider that Alphatia is a vast Empire on Mystara. Not only, originally it comprised entire planets. So why should we think that the Alphatians are all alike? > Ethnically we know that there are two "races": the true Alphatians, ethnically like the original Alphatians, and the common Alphatians, ethnically like the original Cypri. > We can assume that the Ochaleans are a group (maybe the Cypri? or a subrace of the Cypri?) that spoke a M-Chinese language originally. Somehow, they were a minor, philosophical, group, in the shadow of the major ones (Air and Fire Followers), that ultimately sided with the Air Followers. Here we have two options to explain the nature of these "Alphatians-who-speak-or-spoke-Chinese-before-Landfall": > a) the Ochaleans effectively speak M-Chinese, a > different language from Alphatian; > they could have been: > a1) the original Cypri > a2) a subrace of the Cypri > a3) another conquered race > In any case they have been ethnically absorbed, but > continue to speal their language. I would refuse the > fourth hypothesis, "Ochaleans are an Alphatian > subrace", because it would mean that Alphatians are > Sino-Tibetans, something I am inclined to refuse > because of the names of the cities and kingdoms of > Alphatia Mainland and Bellissaria > > b) the Ochaleans already spoke Alphatian at the time > of Landfall, but had and have preserved the Chinese > names; in this case, we have two possible explanations > for this: > b1) the Ochaleans, conquered by the Alphatians, > continued to call themselves with their traditional > names even if the language was more or less lost; > b2) the Ochaleans were a philosophical movement that > tried to recapture the feelings and ideals of a lost > culture or time of Alphatian history, and thus they > began to rename themselves, their children etc. with > old Ochalean names; moreover they tried to recover > traces of the language, of the writing and so on, > developing their characteristic ideogram system that > later, on Mystara, would influence the writing system > of the Myoshimans; > > In any case, the Ochalean language, however, > influenced the Alphatian language, creating, along > with the languages of the various conquered nations, > Classical Alphatian (the language at the time of > Landfall, 1000 BC). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:39:34 -0300 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: Ochalea & Ethengar On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 15:04:51 +0200, la Volpe wrote: > ...but if we really want to push it further, let's see > what we can do to tie Chinese and Mongol on Mystara... > 1) A group of Oltec-descended humans live in the areas > of northern Brun, Midlands etc. > 2) Here they trade with the Neathar > 3) It's before 20'000 BC: language is just beginning to be used by the humans. Rise of the I'm following so far. Thanks for pushing it back some more. > 3) However, a marginal group of Oltecs, located somewhere between Borea and Wendar, develope another one of the "original languages": the Mystaran equivalent of proto-sino-tibetan. Are the Oltecs necessarily the ancestors of Asian peoples? Sorry, but my anthropology background doesn't go back that far. > 4) When the Beastmen are created, they are neighbours of these M-Uralo-Altaic. The Beastmen, who don't have a language of their own, take the language from them. Maybe a small number of Ogres are neighbours of the M-Chinese and become the Ogre Magi. I can see this no problem so far. 5) After the Great Rain of Fire, the M-Chinese move toward the Known World, they are the ancestors of the Ethengarians. M-Chinese settle in Ethengar. The Ogre Magi may either remain with the Humanoid Hordes, or leave with the M-Chinese (or a little of both). Are the M-Chinese limited in location for 15,000 years to the Borea-Wendar region? > Now we must still decide why the Ochaleans are M-Chinese. Referring to my previous posts on the matter, there would be a couple of possibilities: > a) Ochaleans are M-Chinese since the time of Landfall, before the Old Alphatian Empire was destroyed (see previous post for the exact explanation of this): in this case, their speaking M-Chinese would simply be a coincidence, a case of parallel evolution exactly like those of Averoigne and Klantyre from Laterre Okay, I'd like to have it that the Cypro-Ochaleans are M-Chinese-esque, having similar elements to their culture thus making integration with the M-Chinese Ochalean natives more facile. Landing on Ochalea they find humans, lupins, rakasta and ogre-magi all speaking M-Chinese or variants and using M-Chinese bureaucracy. It's easier to rule by learning the language and using the entrenched bureaucracy and also by expelling large numbers of natives replacing them with Cypro-Ochaleans. After 1500 years plus there are few pure blooded from any contributory human population. I gotta go work. Later ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 21:01:22 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Francesco Defferrari ha scritto: > > I wrote before because Ochalea seems to have some indonesians elements, and I'm interested in this point --because it could point to further Rakastan influence there. Could you elaborate? > BTW, in Dragon 247 I don't see anything very malesian or indonesian, so why > rakasta should be M-malesian and indonesian? The names (endoethnics, to be precise)! ``Harimau'', for example, is the indonesian word for ``tiger'', but also the name of the Rakasta of southern Skothar. Also, the Pateran nations (Selimpore, Kompor Thap) > Poor Wizard Almanac II (and III) says that "Yasuko are probably related to > Ochaleans - they share similar appearance": it seems clear to me that > "similar appearance" should stand for "asiatic" not for alphatian. Yasuko > could be > a malesian name, malesia is neighbour to indonesia and so malesia could be a > good inspiration for Yasuko tribal lands. Yasuko could be Malesian? I though of them as Japanese. Anyway, they could be an offshot of Ochalea. > ? according to Dragon 247 there was an original family descended from > Ba-steh who populated Mystara travelling everywhere. Yes, but the descendants of Ba-steh and those of Kum-rah seem to form the two major (ancestor) breeds. GP ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 21:07:03 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Andrew Theisen ha scritto: > > Ahh... I hadn't thought to check the Savage Coast > materials. Darn it! Yet another contradictory "canon" > source!!! Curses! Well, luckily Aboisfort's account is just a theory (basically the one certain lupin sages like, since it gives their race some ``high'' heritage). > Good call, though. I'll have to revise my thinking... > and FWIW, I always thought that the 100 BC thing was > far too short a period for the development of so many > Lupin breeds... Indeed. See my article on lupin history on the Vaults for an idea of how and when they developed. > We'd presumably have to tie the Ogre-Magi in with the > Ogrish race from which they come, though. Since the > Ogrish migration from Urzud (and later, Sind) doesn't > happen until c.1300 BC, I'd presume the Ogre-Magi > don't reach Ochalea until sometime afterwards. Yes, I'd do so -- unless the ``Ogre Magi'' are actually some type of spirit or demon (entropic servants) rather than a goblinoid subspecies. > Again, though, they could have split from the rest of > the ogres earlier, I guess. That's also possible. > True, I guess I was going a bit overboard. I still > don't see lupins and rakasta working together, though- > but I think that may just be a legacy of my ingrained > "dogs and cats: mortal enemies" thinking. They do not work easily together, indeed -- except in X2, where they both appear in Andre-David's following. > Speaking of which, there was a news item on tv the > other day about a dog that had adopted several > kittens, and was nursing them. Slow news day? ;) :) GP ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 21:12:49 +0200 From: la Volpe Subject: Re: Ochalea & Ethengar > Landing on Ochalea they find humans, lupins, rakasta > and ogre-magi all > speaking M-Chinese or variants and using M-Chinese > bureaucracy. It's > easier to rule by learning the language and using > the entrenched > bureaucracy and also by expelling large numbers of > natives replacing > them with Cypro-Ochaleans. > There's no need to expel the natives, except maybe some Rakastas that didn't agree with the policy of peace. They probably decided to left on their own, or were forced to although in a polite, respectful way. The humans were probably a small number, maybe slaves to the Ogre Magi. To use the old idea of a war among Ogre Magi vs Lupin, maybe the Ochalean-Alphatians arrived just in time to see the end of the war. The expelled Rakastas could have been allies of the Ogre Magi (thus explaining why the Myoshiman Rakastas are japanese - here we have the Chinese influence). The humans of Ochalea were probably just a few, and the Ochaleans easily absorb them. Maybe they shared similar philosophies (those of Koryis, if he was already around, or ideals of ancestors' cult, like in confucianism, and the Celestial Bureaucracy), and thus integration was easy...although in this case I'd probably go with something like Ochaleans being M-Chinese from the start, as a "parallel evolution" from Alphatia's Homeworld or Alphatia's Home Solar System. If we go with this idea, there are still three things to think about: a) what was the original Ethengarian population like culturally? surely they weren't Mongol like - Ethengar is probably how China would have been if the Mongol Horsemen invaded and conquered China in 100 before Christ...with the Humanoids being the ones that bring the Mongol culture, although nowadays the Ethengarians are a Mongol culture b) the origin and language of Ochaleans; here it depends mostly wheter you choose from these options: b1) Ochaleans speak a form of Alphatian, more or less influenced by M-Chinese b2) Ochaleans speak M-Chinese in case b1, then we must explain how the Ochaleans managed to "conquer" the other populations and why they still use M-Chinese names...but personally I prefer this option in case b2, then we must contraddict Canon, maybe many won't like it (me being an example 8-) ) c) remember that we still have to decide why and how the Ogre Magi and some M-Chinese made it to Ochalea... Giulio ___________________________________ Nuovo Yahoo! Messenger: E' molto più divertente: Audibles, Avatar, Webcam, Giochi, Rubrica… Scaricalo ora! http://it.messenger.yahoo.it ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 21:14:09 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Doulakki [was: Belcadiz] DM ha scritto: > > AARGHH!! Not again! :p :) The Doulakki will be your recurring nightmare }:) > May I ask you WHY do you need to rename them? Just > because they lived outside Karameikos? But they're > still Traldars! For me, because they're not Traldar, but a separate, though related, group. > It's pretty strange you have to INVENT a new name for > people who basically only settled one maybe two cities > (Cynidicea and Selenica/Selenikos whatever). Why don't > stay true to canon? We are not changing anything in canon. We're just adding. If this is ``not staying true to canon'', then I'll have to point out that there never where Traldar in Thyatis, AFAWK. > Otherwise I could call the > Alphatians of Glantri "Galatians" just because they've > settled in another part of the world (it's the same > difference between your "doulakki" and my "traldars" > of Thyatis, coz they're the same in culture and > language!) :p Not that true. Traldar are a Bronze Age culture, and speak Homeric Greek. Doulakki are a Iron Age culture, and speak Hellenistic Greek. That's a significant difference, in my book. GP ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:44:38 -0300 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: Ochalea & Ethengar Okay, I guess I'll have to retreat from the list for the weekend and read up on cultural anthropology and archaeology. But first, since I cannot find anything on the 'net that explains or puts dates or numbers and apparently the Vaults are just out of date someone tell me where to find or spell out: What was the extent of the ogre-magi, lupin and rakasta civilization on the island of Ochalea at: 3000BC and 500 year increments toward the present day. (I.e. 2500, 2000 etc). And thereby explain why a sizable human populace cannot exist there simultaneously. Please cite the document I can find this information in whether it's canon, non-canon or semi-canon. Were they civilizations or were they uncivilized cultures? How much permanent structure was built? And where did they come from? Thank you On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 21:12:49 +0200, la Volpe wrot= e: > > Landing on Ochalea they find humans, lupins, rakasta > > and ogre-magi all > > speaking M-Chinese or variants and using M-Chinese > > bureaucracy. It's > > easier to rule by learning the language and using > > the entrenched > > bureaucracy and also by expelling large numbers of > > natives replacing > > them with Cypro-Ochaleans. > > > There's no need to expel the natives, except maybe > some Rakastas that didn't agree with the policy of > peace. They probably decided to left on their own, or > were forced to although in a polite, respectful way. > =20 > The humans were probably a small number, maybe slaves > to the Ogre Magi. To use the old idea of a war among > Ogre Magi vs Lupin, maybe the Ochalean-Alphatians > arrived just in time to see the end of the war. The > expelled Rakastas could have been allies of the Ogre > Magi (thus explaining why the Myoshiman Rakastas are > japanese - here we have the Chinese influence). The > humans of Ochalea were probably just a few, and the > Ochaleans easily absorb them. Maybe they shared > similar philosophies (those of Koryis, if he was > already around, or ideals of ancestors' cult, like in > confucianism, and the Celestial Bureaucracy), and thus > integration was easy...although in this case I'd > probably go with something like Ochaleans being > M-Chinese from the start, as a "parallel evolution" > from Alphatia's Homeworld or Alphatia's Home Solar > System. If we go with this idea, there are still three > things to think about: > =20 > a) what was the original Ethengarian population like > culturally? surely they weren't Mongol like - Ethengar > is probably how China would have been if the Mongol > Horsemen invaded and conquered China in 100 before > Christ...with the Humanoids being the ones that bring > the Mongol culture, although nowadays the Ethengarians > are a Mongol culture > =20 > b) the origin and language of Ochaleans; here it > depends mostly wheter you choose from these options: > b1) Ochaleans speak a form of Alphatian, more or less > influenced by M-Chinese > b2) Ochaleans speak M-Chinese > =20 > in case b1, then we must explain how the Ochaleans > managed to "conquer" the other populations and why > they still use M-Chinese names...but personally I > prefer this option > =20 > in case b2, then we must contraddict Canon, maybe many > won't like it (me being an example 8-) ) > =20 > c) remember that we still have to decide why and how > the Ogre Magi and some M-Chinese made it to Ochalea... > =20 > =20 > =20 > Giulio > =20 > ___________________________________ > Nuovo Yahoo! Messenger: E' molto pi=C3=B9 divertente: Audibles, Avatar, W= ebcam, Giochi, Rubrica=E2=80=A6 Scaricalo ora! > http://it.messenger.yahoo.it > =20 > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/default.aspx > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:56:57 -0300 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: Ochalea & Ethengar Also, please recall the size of the island of Ochalea and compare it to the Old Known World and the Isle of Dawn. Please note that the island is in the middle of everything, sitting right where anyone navigating north to south, east to west might or even have to run into it. On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:44:38 -0300, Steven Carter wrote: > Okay, I guess I'll have to retreat from the list for the weekend and > read up on cultural anthropology and archaeology. > =20 > But first, since I cannot find anything on the 'net that explains or > puts dates or numbers and apparently the Vaults are just out of date > someone tell me where to find or spell out: > =20 > What was the extent of the ogre-magi, lupin and rakasta civilization > on the island of Ochalea at: 3000BC and 500 year increments toward the > present day. (I.e. 2500, 2000 etc). And thereby explain why a sizable > human populace cannot exist there simultaneously. Please cite the > document I can find this information in whether it's canon, non-canon > or semi-canon. Were they civilizations or were they uncivilized > cultures? How much permanent structure was built? And where did they > come from? > =20 > Thank you > =20 > =20 > =20 > On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 21:12:49 +0200, la Volpe wr= ote: > > > Landing on Ochalea they find humans, lupins, rakasta > > > and ogre-magi all > > > speaking M-Chinese or variants and using M-Chinese > > > bureaucracy. It's > > > easier to rule by learning the language and using > > > the entrenched > > > bureaucracy and also by expelling large numbers of > > > natives replacing > > > them with Cypro-Ochaleans. > > > > > There's no need to expel the natives, except maybe > > some Rakastas that didn't agree with the policy of > > peace. They probably decided to left on their own, or > > were forced to although in a polite, respectful way. > > > > The humans were probably a small number, maybe slaves > > to the Ogre Magi. To use the old idea of a war among > > Ogre Magi vs Lupin, maybe the Ochalean-Alphatians > > arrived just in time to see the end of the war. The > > expelled Rakastas could have been allies of the Ogre > > Magi (thus explaining why the Myoshiman Rakastas are > > japanese - here we have the Chinese influence). The > > humans of Ochalea were probably just a few, and the > > Ochaleans easily absorb them. Maybe they shared > > similar philosophies (those of Koryis, if he was > > already around, or ideals of ancestors' cult, like in > > confucianism, and the Celestial Bureaucracy), and thus > > integration was easy...although in this case I'd > > probably go with something like Ochaleans being > > M-Chinese from the start, as a "parallel evolution" > > from Alphatia's Homeworld or Alphatia's Home Solar > > System. If we go with this idea, there are still three > > things to think about: > > > > a) what was the original Ethengarian population like > > culturally? surely they weren't Mongol like - Ethengar > > is probably how China would have been if the Mongol > > Horsemen invaded and conquered China in 100 before > > Christ...with the Humanoids being the ones that bring > > the Mongol culture, although nowadays the Ethengarians > > are a Mongol culture > > > > b) the origin and language of Ochaleans; here it > > depends mostly wheter you choose from these options: > > b1) Ochaleans speak a form of Alphatian, more or less > > influenced by M-Chinese > > b2) Ochaleans speak M-Chinese > > > > in case b1, then we must explain how the Ochaleans > > managed to "conquer" the other populations and why > > they still use M-Chinese names...but personally I > > prefer this option > > > > in case b2, then we must contraddict Canon, maybe many > > won't like it (me being an example 8-) ) > > > > c) remember that we still have to decide why and how > > the Ogre Magi and some M-Chinese made it to Ochalea... > > > > > > > > Giulio > > > > ___________________________________ > > Nuovo Yahoo! Messenger: E' molto pi=C3=B9 divertente: Audibles, Avatar,= Webcam, Giochi, Rubrica=E2=80=A6 Scaricalo ora! > > http://it.messenger.yahoo.it > > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/default.asp= x > > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 21:35:22 -0400 From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: M-Malaysian (was Investigating Ochalean History) > > RW malesian were not culturaly isolated and I think that in canon were > > clearly meant to be culturaly close to the ochalean, as indonesian and > > malesian are culturaly close in RW for many things. So I stick with my idea > > of a skotharian origin of oriental cultures of Mystara, that influenced the > > rakastan and was also influenced by them. > > I'm losing you here. M-Malesian and M-Indonesian, AFAIK, are the Rakasta. They certainly have a connection with the M-Chinese/Ochalean. Hi, where does this Rakasta as M-Malaysian/Indonesian originate? Could someone post a link to the source? The town of Kota-Jayang, in the HW's Merry Pirate Seas is M-Malaysian, based on the sound of the name. In the M-Almanac stuff that I did for the MPS I incorporated this w/o knowing where on Mystara these pirates originated from. They are human, however, not rakasta. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 21 Oct 2004 to 22 Oct 2004 (#2004-227) ****************************************************************