Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 23 Oct 2004 to 24 Oct 2004 (#2004-229) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 25/10/2004, 18:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 16 messages totalling 619 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History (6) 2. M-Malaysian (was Investigating Ochalean History) (2) 3. Rakastas, Ochalea & Myoshima (...and Makai!) (2) 4. Rakastas, Makai and M-Malaysian (3) 5. Rakasta and Lupins in the Hollow World (2) 6. Ochalea & Ethengar ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/default.aspx To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 10:42:05 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Dan Eustace ha scritto: > > Is all of this Rakasta as "M-Austric" material found in this Dragon article, > or are there other sources? What source details civilizations on Patera? > I know the Rakasta of Bellayne and Myoshima, to a lesser extent, but I've > not heard of these others until these recent posts. It's everything in the two articles on the Rakasta, the ``Campaign Classics'' one and the VotPA one. Quoting from http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/html/dragon.html: 160 VOYAGE OF THE PRINCESS ARK 7: "The Princess Ark aims for the stars." 1965: Hastmir 26-Eimir 15 Geographical supplement: Myoshima Modified race: Rakasta of Myoshima have 60' infravision Nations: Myoshima, Rajahstan, Kompor-Thap, Selimpore, Malacayog, and Surabayang 247 Rakasta of Mystara Hope it helps, GP ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 11:48:46 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: M-Malaysian (was Investigating Ochalean History) Dan Eustace wrote: > The town of Kota-Jayang, in the HW's Merry Pirate Seas is > M-Malaysian, based on the sound of the name. In the M-Almanac stuff > that I did for the MPS I incorporated this w/o knowing where on > Mystara these pirates originated from. They are human, however, not > rakasta. That's very interesting, so we have another reference to an oriental culture of humans in Mystara canon. If they are in the HW, these pirates could be inhabitants of the Alatian isles, with a culture similar to the native ochaleans, later absorbed by the alphatian and so transplanted on the HW. Mind that in canon we have little or nothing about the alphatian sea- sea of dawn region before the alphatian. I would say that the place should have been full of human cultures, like many very good uncanon works pointed out about alphatian mainland ans the isle of dawn. bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 11:59:36 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Rakastas, Ochalea & Myoshima (...and Makai!) Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > Uhm... that would assume that the ochaleans developed the > M-Austronesian and M-Sino-Tibetan linguistic groups. Isn't this a bit > too much for a comparatively small ethnic group? No, M-sino tibetan developed in Skothar from the original oriental culture, Oltec-like, while in the area of Ochalea and Alatian isles we should have only the austronesian group. I like to consider ochaleans not whole chinese but southern chinese, who were originally austronesian AFAI remember. Or they could have been austronesian and later chinese influenced by the chinese empire devised by Hervè or by the rakasta as you and others originally thought. > Well, they've been there since the beginning, actually. Rakasta appear > in Castle Amber as followers of Sire Richard and Sire Andre-David, and > in the Isle of Dread as nomadic tribes. The Lupins appear in Castle > Amber as followers of Sire Claude and Sire Andre-David. > So at least they existed in Glantri *before* the Gazetteer. Too bad > Bruce did not use them at the time, and only reintroduced the Lupins > in the later DM article. I know, but originally they have a lot less importance in the setting. Mind that I don't want to marginalize lupins and rakastas in Mystara and I like them as major races too, I just don't like to use them to explain human cultures, particulary in the Known World and other nations, like Ochalea, that were devised a lot before them. > Consider that using them in the explanation of past events does not > even modify the knowledge that PC may have -- who knows the origin of > the Makai language anyway? Yes, that's another matter, I know I'll not ever have many archeological PCs :-) bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 12:10:43 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Rakastas, Makai and M-Malaysian la Volpe wrote: > So, if we assume that one of the two original breeds > of Rakastas are the equivalent of the Real World's > "Austrics", given the fact that Rakastas are found all > over Mystara, it's far from impossible to assume that > a group of Rakasta, bringing with them their Austric > language, arrived in the areas of nowadays Ierendi. In > some way, they imposed their language on the Makai. > This could have happened a lot of time ago, probably > BEFORE the original Makai were transplanted to the > Hollow World. During the course of centuries, Rakastas > left Ierendi, and the Makai developed a M-Polinesian > language. As usual, I don't like to use rakasta to explain human cultures, moreso where we haven't any mention of rakasta in canon, like in ierendi. Anyway if we had an austric culures in Ochalea and Alatians area, Makai could simply by a melanesian population, a mix of Neathar who came from Brun and proto-oriental Oltecs who came to ierendi from Skothar or from the alphatian region. I think there are RW theories that link polinesian, eastern polineasian like the hawaians particulary, to amerindian populations, and I think that even Cavalli-Sforza didn't dismissed entirely this hypothesis. Here we have yet another link between Makai and Oltecs. We have the people of Colima in the HW too: they are clearly inspired by Eastern Island natives, and they could have been indigenous to the sea of dawn or sea of dread area, kin to the Makai. bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 12:13:06 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Rakastas, Makai and M-Malaysian la Volpe wrote: > So, if we assume that one of the two original breeds > of Rakastas are the equivalent of the Real World's > "Austrics", given the fact that Rakastas are found all > over Mystara, it's far from impossible to assume that > a group of Rakasta, bringing with them their Austric > language, arrived in the areas of nowadays Ierendi. In > some way, they imposed their language on the Makai. > This could have happened a lot of time ago, probably > BEFORE the original Makai were transplanted to the > Hollow World. During the course of centuries, Rakastas > left Ierendi, and the Makai developed a M-Polinesian > language. As usual, I don't like to use rakasta to explain human cultures, moreso where we haven't any mention of rakasta in canon, like in ierendi. Anyway if we had an austric culures in Ochalea and Alatians area, Makai could simply by a melanesian population, a mix of Neathar who came from Brun and proto-oriental Oltecs who came to ierendi from Skothar or from the alphatian region. I think there are RW theories that link polinesian, eastern polineasian like the hawaians particulary, to amerindian populations, and I think that even Cavalli-Sforza didn't dismissed entirely this hypothesis. Here we have yet another link between Makai and Oltecs. We have the people of Colima in the HW too: they are clearly inspired by Eastern Island natives, and they could have been indigenous to the sea of dawn or sea of dread area, kin to the Makai. As for rakasta they could have lived in ochalea alatians area in ancient times and the austronesian human culture and the rakastan one could have developed alongside with mutual contribution, while the japanese culture of Mystara could be only rakasta (even if I rememeber that was mentioned by Bruce Heard that Zyxl could be an human M-japan). bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 12:16:36 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Rakastas, Makai and M-Malaysian la Volpe wrote: Argh, it seems that outlook sent three copies of my post! I'm sorry! bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 12:28:57 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > Of course, but it is likely to be the Skotharian Rakasta, who are IMO > clearly M-indonesian -- though there's also a proved link between > Myoshima and Bellayne. Or an austronesian human and rakastan culture between Skothar and the Sea of dread, as I just wrote to Giulio. The town of Kota-Jayang in the HW that Dan indicated could confirm this. bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 12:54:15 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Dan Eustace ha scritto: > > Is all of this Rakasta as "M-Austric" material found in this Dragon article, > or are there other sources? What source details civilizations on Patera? From Dragon 160, considering the minor nations of Myoshima (the major ones being of course Myoshima, and Rajahstan, an M-Indian Rakasta empire): ``Among the more prominent territories are Kompor-Thap (a valley of a thousand hidden temples), Selimpore (a mercantile matriarchy), Malacayog (a nation of headhunters), and Surabayang (fierce island pirates).'' I think the RW counterparts should be the following: Kompor-Thap Burma Selimpore Singapore? (uncertain, though the name matches) Malacayog Philippines Surabayang Indonesia (specifically, Java and Borneo) Quoting from Dragon 247: ``Mightiest among the greater rakasta, sherkasta prowl the forests and swamps of southern Skothar. Some have also claimed the mountain forests of northern Skothar. The southerners, who call themselves the Harimau-Belang, remains the most common. Their base color runs from reddish-orange to reddish-yellow, with dark stripes and white or cream fur inside their limbs. Their northern cousins, the Tagh, show a thicker, light grey or white pelage, with brown or black stripes.'' The names, Harimau-Belang and Tagh, are simply traslations of ``Tiger'' into languages of Indonesia and Tibet or Nepal. To complete the set of information on Skothar: ``Cloud Pardasta live in the forests of Bellissaria and Skothar, along the Minaean Coast, Tangor Bay, and the Tangor Peninsula. On Skothar, they call themselves Rimau-Dahan literally, fork-of-branch tigers.'' That's all the relevant information. You might add the M-Japanese Rakasta (Yazak Steppes, Myoshima) to the lot, going by the theory that on the evolution of Japanese that Giulio mentioned. So, considering only the Skotharian Rakasta (the Davanians are M-African), we can say that at least the following nations are represented: Japan -> both on Patera and Brun Philippines -> Patera Indonesia/Malaysia -> both on Patera and Skothar Burma -> Patera Nepal/Tibet -> Skothar India -> Patera We are pretty sure that M-Indian culture is not native to the Rakasta (it's a combination of Neathar/Urduk and Oltec/Sindhi). Moreover, there are at least three sources which the Rakasta may have taken M-Indian culture from: 1) Rakshasa: these shapechanger often try to enslave Sherkasta tribes; they were likely involved in Sind history as well, and might well appear in Rajahstan 2) Pachydermions: these humanoids live on Patera as well as on Mystara, and have an M-Indian culture 3) Rakasta live everywhere in Mystara. At some point, they might have lived in Sind as well, though now they have disappeared from the region; the Sindhi Rakasta may simply have moved to Patera. Of the remaining ``Skotharian'' Rakasta, Sherkasta are the older breed -- directly related to the first descendants of Ba-steh. Both internal and RW evidence leads to believe that Sherkasta culture is the oldest, and Myoshiman/Yazakan the youngest -- following an east-west migratory line across IoD, Ochalea, Thanegioth, Sind, to the Savage Coast and beyond. From these consideration, I draw the following conclusions: 1) Original Sherkasta language/culture is M-Austric (large group including most of Indonesia, Philippines, and Pacific regions) 2) Other languages/cultures are derived from simple evolution (Malacayog, Harimau-Belang, Rimau-Dahan, Selimpore, Surabayang) 3) Myoshiman language was created when M-Austric Rakasta met M-Altaic humans in the Yazak Steppes; later, there must have been an heavy M-Chinese influence 4) Other M-Austric languages in Mystara must derive from Rakastan influence (basically, that's the Makai language) 5) There might have been some Rakastan influence on Ochalea, but the reverse is more relevant: there's been a massive influence of the Ochalean culture on the Rakasta of Myoshima, Kompor-Thap, the Yazak Steppes, and central Skothar. All other Rakasta were either influenced by human cultures (e.g. Caracasta, Jakar, Jaguarundi, Ocelotl) or belong to the Davanian (M-African) group (Simbasta, Fast Runner, Servasta). That said, the major issue still standing is: how comes that a massive influence was exerted by M-Chinese culture on far-flung Rakastan cultures (and, basically, only on Rakastan cultures, with the exception of Ethengar?) If we go by the Alphatian hypotesis (i.e., either there was an M-Chinese Alphatian group, or the M-Chinese were descendants of the Oltecs, lived in Bellissaria or Alphatia and were enslaved by the Alphatians), then the easier solution is that the Alphatians exported the M-Chinese culture to Ethengar and Ochalea, and from there the Rakasta, fleeing some kind of persecution (perhaps Rakasta were in league with lycanthropes at the time of the lycanthropic plagues?) brought it to Myoshima, Skothar, the Yazak Steppes and Kompor-Thap. The same option could be used if we go by other solutions for the M-Chinese language: 1) If it derives from the ``Spirit World'', then Ogre-Magi and Foo Dogs might be spirit-creatures, and the M-Chinese traits might come from there to Ochalea, Ethengar and the Tagh (as, for, example, M-Celtic traits may be carried or supported by the Wee Folk in distant regions). From there, we might continue with the first solution; 2) If it derives from a Skotharian civilization, then the Tagh might have got it directly from the source -- somewhere in the mountains north of Tangor Bay. In this case, Nentsun might also hold some vestiges of that civilization, as could other nothern Rakasta (especially the Snow Pardasta). As a general note, I'd like to point out that while it is true that Humans should be allowed to create original cultures and language, the same should apply to Lupin, Rakasta, Elves, Dwarves and even Goblinoids. Considering that the Rakasta are one of the major races of Mystara (there is an entire moon full of the guys out there, plus a large Rakasta nation in Bellayne, plus the Simbasta tribes -- strong enough to defeat the HK, plus all the Skotharian Rakasta, etc.), they certainly deserve an independent language group. Also, to answer a point raised by Federico Kaftal a few days ago, this consideration makes a multicentric origin of language more appropriate to Mystara (regardless of the actual origin of languages in the RW): most people, even though they may not care about Rakasta and such, would hardly accept a common origin for elven and human languages (while Hin and Dwarven *may* be related respectively to Elvish and Neathar). Not to mention the fact that Alphatian and Laterran cannot come from the same source as Mystaran language (even though there is a very unlikely convergent evolution, better left unexplained). GP ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 13:06:57 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Francesco Defferrari ha scritto: > > Or an austronesian human and rakastan culture between Skothar and the Sea of > dread, as I just wrote to Giulio. > The town of Kota-Jayang in the HW that Dan indicated could confirm this. It would be very unusual. There's a single mixed Rakasta-Human culture (Bellayne), and that's remarkably recent. GP ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 13:43:17 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Rakasta and Lupins in the Hollow World Inspired by the recent discussions, what subraces of Rakasta and Lupins can be found in the Hollow World, and where would be suitable locations for these races? Håvard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 14:04:42 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Giampaolo Agosta wrote: >> Or an austronesian human and rakastan culture between Skothar and >> the Sea of dread, as I just wrote to Giulio. >> The town of Kota-Jayang in the HW that Dan indicated could confirm >> this. > > It would be very unusual. There's a single mixed Rakasta-Human culture > (Bellayne), and that's remarkably recent. Ochalea would be a mixed rakasta-human culture too, as you and other wrote, or not? I'm just expanding that human-rakastan oriental culture to all the area, before the alphatian arrived. This way Ethengar, Sind, Makai, Yasuko, Ochalea, Kota-Jayang, Oriental cultures of Skothar and rakasta could be all linked together very easily. BTW, Bellayne is a clear example of rakastan borrowing an human culture, because probably they had a sort of ural-altaic culture and then they become "english" because of the humans'influence. bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 13:15:07 -0400 From: Donald Eric Kesler Subject: Re: Ochalea & Ethengar > Moreover, there are three "alien" ethnic groups, the > Laterrans (coming from a parallel Earth, like the > people of Averoigne and Klantyre in Glantri, that are > french and scots respectively), the Alphatians, and a > small group on the southern continent, called > Emerondians. Hello, There is a fourth group. I always thought it would be interesting to have a group of people that are decended from the crew of the HMS Beagle. While it is true that most of them died in their sleep, enough left their Federation Star Ship to have a huge impact upon the Known World. Surely, Ka would have felt inclined to perserve a few examples of these people in the Hollow World. Regards and Best Wishes, Donald Eric Kesler _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 14:29:44 -0300 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 12:54:15 +0200, Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > Dan Eustace ha scritto: > As a general note, I'd like to point out that while it is true that > Humans should be allowed to create original cultures and language, the > same should apply to Lupin, Rakasta, Elves, Dwarves and even Goblinoids. > Considering that the Rakasta are one of the major races of Mystara > (there is an entire moon full of the guys out there, plus a large > Rakasta nation in Bellayne, plus the Simbasta tribes -- strong enough to > defeat the HK, plus all the Skotharian Rakasta, etc.), they certainly > deserve an independent language group. I cannot agree more on this point. The major sentient races deserve their own cultures, languages etc. Although I don't see anything wrong with using one or two elements of other cultures along with the major native elements. IMC elves were "alien" to humanity because of their attitudes regarding their natural longevity. Not everyone plays it like that. In one campaign I played in the GM said he was using feudal Japanese society as elven because he could not think of anything more alien. Which to me was a cop-out on his part. Or just unimaginitive. I saw nothing wrong with using the samurai codes as part of his elven culture but his elves were just really tall white Japanese with pointy ears. > Also, to answer a point raised by Federico Kaftal a few days ago, this > consideration makes a multicentric origin of language more appropriate > to Mystara (regardless of the actual origin of languages in the RW): > most people, even though they may not care about Rakasta and such, would > hardly accept a common origin for elven and human languages (while Hin > and Dwarven *may* be related respectively to Elvish and Neathar). > Not to mention the fact that Alphatian and Laterran cannot come from the > same source as Mystaran language (even though there is a very unlikely > convergent evolution, better left unexplained). While the original language development would seem objectionable to me I see nothing wrong with dialect development through racial co-operation. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 15:43:09 -0300 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: Rakastas, Ochalea & Myoshima (...and Makai!) On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 11:59:36 +0200, Francesco Defferrari wrote: > Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > > Consider that using them in the explanation of past events does not > > even modify the knowledge that PC may have -- who knows the origin of > > the Makai language anyway? > Yes, that's another matter, I know I'll not ever have many archeological PCs See, now, that's the whole reason I've had to approach the Ochalean timeline. I had the idea of writing an event for the almanac that adventurers uncovered something that upset the Ochalean courts so much it became divided. I am of the opinion that the present-day Ochalean courts think of themselves as the descendents of "righteous Alphatians". However the exarch (to my mind) doesn't really care where he came from because it's the action of the man today that matters. But in order to write the current events and plan where this leads then I need to know the exact nature of the past. There is always "what the players know" and "history as the immortals see it". Cheers Steve ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 15:48:01 -0300 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: M-Malaysian (was Investigating Ochalean History) Interesting you say this. Glad it was brought up. If the proto-Ethengar are hunter gatherers that come from the edge of Blackmoorian civ'n then why cannot a related M-Chinese group (or others) who live in the littoral regions and subsist on fishing and the sea migrate through the Sea of Dawn to Ochalea around 3000-2800BC? The only canon people they should run into are Oltec Savages, right? On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 11:48:46 +0200, Francesco Defferrari wrote: > Dan Eustace wrote: > dawn region before the alphatian. I would say that the place should have > been full of human cultures, like many very good uncanon works pointed out > about alphatian mainland ans the isle of dawn. > bye > Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 08:42:41 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Rakasta and Lupins in the Hollow World Havard Faanes wrote: > Inspired by the recent discussions, > what subraces of Rakasta and Lupins can be found in > the Hollow World, and where would be suitable > locations for these races? For Rakasta, canonically both ancestor Rakasta (Cave Rakasta and Rakastodon Fatalis) can be found only in the Hollow World. Areas would be savannah and jungle, respectively, IIRC. Also, nomads of the artic regions are said to know routes to the HW. Therefore, one might find a Norwold Malamute or Lynxman tribe in the artic region of the HW. For the Lupins, if you go by the Aardovai hypotesis (i.e., that Lupins are the results of natural evolution from earlier forms of ``lupinids''), then Aardovai should be found in the HW (but maybe they were thought for the Hollow Moon). Finally, later human civilizations may have a minority of Lupins. However, there's no civilization in the HW that I know of that might have been moved after coming in contact with the Lupins, except the Shattenalfen, who met the Cimarron Hairless in Oenkmar. Some Cimarron Hairless could therefore be found in the HW -- though canonically they fled Oenkmar and went back to the OW. Ah, and I would recast the inhabitants of Kota-Jayang as Sherkasta pirates, of course ;) -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 23 Oct 2004 to 24 Oct 2004 (#2004-229) ****************************************************************