Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 24 Oct 2004 to 25 Oct 2004 (#2004-230) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 26/10/2004, 18:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 21 messages totalling 1383 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History (10) 2. TRALDARS (2) 3. M-Malaysian (3) 4. Tentative History of Rakasta (Part 1/3) 5. Tentative History of Rakasta (Part 2/3) 6. Tentative History of the Rakasta (Part 3/3) (2) 7. RES: [MYSTARA] Ochalea 8. Rakasta and Lupins in the Hollow World ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/default.aspx To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:04:47 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Francesco Defferrari wrote: > > Ochalea would be a mixed rakasta-human culture too, as you and other wrote, > or not? Not now, certainly, though the Rakasta did borrow the culture from humans and/or lupins, ogre-magi, etc. > I'm just expanding that human-rakastan oriental culture to all the > area, before the alphatian arrived. This way Ethengar, Sind, Makai, Yasuko, > Ochalea, Kota-Jayang, Oriental cultures of Skothar and rakasta could be all > linked together very easily. I don't see how, though: a single Rakasta-Human culture would either be M-Chinese or M-Indonesian, not both. It could either explain the Ochalea-Ethengar-Yasuko group, or the ``Austronesian'' group. I don't really see anything useful in a large ``Oriental'' group, especially one that includes Sind as well. I mean, obviously there are influences, but that doesn't mean we need to have a single nation or an extended Human/Rakasta culture. I'd rather have M-Austronesian Rakasta and M-Chinese Humans, and explain those items which do not fall in the scheme as loans -- i.e., the Rakasta add a M-Chinese elements because of Human (or other M-Chinese) influence, while the Makai (and possibly Kota-Jayang) get their M-Austronesian language from the Rakasta. There no reason to have such a large Human/Rakasta interaction, since: 1) The Yasuko are human, and have no contacts, in modern times, with Skotharian Rakasta; 2) Same for the Ethengars, and the Rakasta never went that far (except Lynxmen, who do not fall in the Skotharian group) 3) Several Rakasta nations have no M-Chinese influence at all. Of course, if the Rakasta and M-Chinese (and other Humans) interacted for a relatively long time, then it's only logical that some traits (linguistic or not) have been exchanged, but that doesn't lead me to suppose an original unified group. > BTW, Bellayne is a clear example of rakastan borrowing an human culture, > because probably they had a sort of ural-altaic culture and then they become > "english" because of the humans'influence. Of course. The same could have happened in Ochalea. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:19:23 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Steven Carter wrote: > > IMO there is no reason why some of the Chinese elements for Ethengar > and Ochalea cannot go back to the Blackmoor era when GAZ12 "The Golden > Khan of Ethengar" clearly states on page 3 paragraph 4 that the > spirits drawn into the world by the Blackmoor Catastrophe found a > yellow skinned people that lived on the edge or fringe of the > Blackmoor civilization. Well, that doesn't point specifically to any Chinese element -- just being ``yellow skinned'' doesn't make you M-Chinese (actually, all Oltecs are more or less ``yellow skinned''). > Now is it possible that some elements of the ogre-magi group survived > intact on Ochalea but survived peaceably with the lupins and rakasta > and had a hand in the peace development of human civ'n? Everything is possible. Certainly the Chow Chow wouldn't like it -- Ogre Magi used to eat them ;) -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 00:53:13 -0700 From: DM Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Sorry for the delay, but in the weekend I tend to lay low and spend my time with my significant other. But it's monday and I'm here to pester you once more with my mails ;) Francesco Defferrari wrote: << You could use rakasta but you'll have to explain how they developed a chinese/japanese culture (Ochalea and Myoshima) so similar to the Ethengarians without any contact with them. A bit curious, looking on the obvious likeness of japanese, mongolian and chinese cultures in RW.>> As Iulius and Agathokles already said, Ethengar and Ochalea DON'T HAVE MUCH IN COMMON. They don't share the same tongue (fact) and we don't know if they share the same alphabet. They don't share the same costumes and habits, they don't share the same culture or religion, they don't even share the same physical traits or dresses. So how can you say they are "similar"? You are basing your ideas on the RW Mongols and Chinese, but we are not dealing with them here, we're talking about Ochaleans and Ethengars, that is to say folks that had a different history and a different ethnic heritage. Mongols and Chinese in RW are so similar because they lived next to each other for centuries. Ethengars and Ochaleans are divided by more than 1500 miles and a whole ocean, so how could they possibly influence one another? By your theory, you should be more inclined to think the people of Vestland, Soderfjord and Heldann must have been influenced by Ethies and become the Mystara Chinese or vice versa... yet the situation is different, so we must trace back the history of these people to explain this difference with known facts. And the facts point to Ethies getting the "Mongolian" culture from goblinoids, while the "Chinese" culture in Ochalea is still under debate, having no "fixed certainties" like we have for Ethengar ;) I'm not here to tell you, Francesco, or Steve or anyone else "You cannot say this" or "You cannot make this assumption" because IN YOUR CAMPAIGN you are absolutely free to do whatever you like. I'm just here to say basically that, after looking through the history and facts spread all over the Mystara (often-conflicting) sourcebooks, THIS IS what we know FOR SURE of these people and cultures. So some things can be linked for sure, but other options, if you want to speak canon-wise, are not possible. But (and I want to stress it again) nobody says you cannot develop your own material and present it to the list. Mystaros has always done this and always will, and so you are free to do it as well, but you must bear in mind that you must MODIFY some facts to build your own Mystara from more consistent basis (which can then lead to your own version of Mystara). << And before the rakasta were developed what would have you do? I used to think that ethengarian and ochaleans had a common mother culture in Skothar years before the rakasta were created. The uncanon oriental cultures developed by some people in Skothar are a confirmation of my idea, I think.>> I used to think the same way, in part to "reinforce" the need for the MOrient Project (which was just an idea to have eastern cultures, not represented in MYstara up to that point), but alas I had to change my mind after Iulius, Giampaolo and the Devil Swine (another user on the Mystara Italian Boards) brought some pretty tough evidence of the contrary. So you see, I'm not FIXED with just some ideas ;) But I understand your need of not straying from the campaign you have built in the last 10 years or so: I'm not here to tell you "Change it coz it should go like this..." ;) Anyway, the problem with having a Chinese and Japanese culture in Skothar is SPACE. You don't have room to accomodate these cultures, because with the info integrated from the Dragon magazin articles of Bruce Heard on Mystara, the areas we thought M-China could occupy are already settled by Tanagoro and other oriental-like cultures of humanoids, and the mountains of Tangor and Jikushiru are inhospitable by sourcebooks description (PWA and HW mostly). If you want to disregard this and make otherwise IYC, you're free to do it ;) <> I don't get this. What do you mean "a late creation"? They have been on Mystara ever since X1, and that's not "new" IMO ;) Maybe you mean that their HISTORY wasn't covered up to the Dragon Magazine articles, right? But this is not a good reason to disregard them... After all, before Savage Coast came out you didn't know that Ispans were (and had been) part of the Thyatian empire and that you had Spanish and Portuguese baronies in the Savage Coast (according to X9, the only book that detailed it, that region was a wasteland with bizarre monsters!). If you hadn't problems in accepting Ispans and the Baronies, then you shouldn't have problems in accepting the role of rakasta (or lupins for that matter) on Mystara ;) Unless of course your campaign is based on different assumptions and your players already know these.. :p <> We don't know what the original authors had in mind so I stick to written facts. I quote from page 27 of PWA2: "The Yasuko tribesmen are perhaps related to the Ochaleans - they share similar appearance - but little else is known of them." This is not that enlightening mind you ;) The writer uses two words which may imply all and nothing: "PERHAPS related" and "SIMILAR appearance". He's not saying "They're descendants or ancestors of the Ochaleans." > From what we know, since Ochies are Alphatian descendants the Yasuko could be Alphies as well. I'd keep it simple if we can and say that the Yasuko are a failed attempt of the OChaleans at settling the Davanian coast. They were abandoned because thought lost or killed and evolved in a different fashion. Simple as that ;) You see, when I talk about MYstara I try to stick as much as possible to COMMON CANON sources, and since there are many and sometimes conflicting, I have to take all of them into account, and sometimes it's just damn hard to squeeze them all in and please everybody, but that's what I'm trying to do. When I'm talking of MY campaign I always say a foreword to warn the readers, but normally I refrain from speaking of it, since we have enough material from official Mystara sources that is oftentimes forgotten or misremembered to consider and talk about. ;) Pheeeww.. that was a long one, just for Francesco. Now let's go on with the others ^_^ DM __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 01:02:39 -0700 From: DM Subject: Re: TRALDARS Chris Cherrington asked: <> As Giampaolo already said, we DO know gnolls culture and names from GAZ7 and GAZ10 and from HW, and they don't sound Slavic at all :) Besides, I seriously doubt that the Traldars would have been influenced by the culture they most hated. ;) Also, these nomadic M-Slavs (call it Daras or whatever) didn't BUILD a culture: they MERGED with the Traldars to form a distinctive ethnic group called Traladarans, which got a strong Traldar heritage (the myths) and a less strong Daras one (no history but more linguistic and DNA influence). There might be also nowadays nomadic Daras which you can use as Mystaran roms (gypsies). DM _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 01:07:26 -0700 From: DM Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Giampaolo Agosta wrote: <> Problem: Alphatia only arrives on Mystara in BC 1000. However, the Ethengars are ALREADY "Mongols" before the coming of the Alphatians, and we see if from its history, naming rituals and their Khans' deeds. So Alphatia cannot possibly be linked with Ethengar (also since it never ventured there) nor be the link between Ochalea and Ethengar, a link which is IMO unnecessary. DM _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 01:31:08 -0700 From: DM Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 17:27:10 -0700, Andrew Theisen wrote: <> I'm really sorry I haven't posted yet the rakasta history we devised based on the article written by Bruce in Dragon mag #247, coz it would have answered many of your questions and doubts. I'll try to do it this week I promise ;) But anyway, my idea came after I saw how the different breeds of rakasta were spread on Mystara. First thing, we know that 2 initial breeds were CREATED by Ka, based on Ba-steh and Kum-rah: RAKASTODON FATALIS and CAVE RAKASTA. We have then hypothesized that Simbasta are descendants of Cave Rakasta (based on the similarities between the two breeds) and Sherkasta are descendants of RAkastodon. Since the Sherkasta are found ONLY on Skothar and Simbasta only on Davania, the logical solution was that Ka created these two breeds in two different places simultaneously, and didn't reveal which of the two places was the original abode of both Kum-rah and Ba-steh. Also, if you read from Dragon Magazine 247: "After Ba-steh's departure, Ka transformed the most powerful Mystaran cats into rakasta." Since I surmise not all of the great cats lived in one place only, it is a fair call to have them originate in two different continents (it also explains their different culture of origin, more "African" for simbasta, and more "Oriental" or "Indonesian" for sherkasta). <> As Giampaolo already pointed out, sir d'Aboisfort's tale is obviously incomplete and partial, and it's not correct. I also had the idea that the lupins must have originated from Nithia, but Giampaolo made me note that the lupins were already living in the Yazak steppes by Savage Coast history books when the noids came and chased them away, so I had to rethink my theory according to the new proofs (I've already been through this stage as you can see, Andrew) ;) Also if all lupin are descendants of Hutaaka and gnolls, ALL of them should have even a slight trace of their blood, but according to the tables in Dragon mag, they don't! This means not all of them come from Hutaaka and Gnoll crossbreeds. <> You're right, the idea of rakasta and lupins cooperating to fight their Ogre-magi masters is entirely my pet theory, with no facts to support it aside from the thing that we know Ochalean lupins were slaves of the Ogre-magi (source Dragon Mag #237). However, since Dragon mag nr247 places pardasta in Ochalea and we know that pardasta HATE water and Ochalea has been an island only since GRoF, I hypothesized that these rakasta came to Ochalea before GRoF, when it was connected to the Isle of Dawn and Skothar through now sunken landmasses. After GRoF they got stranded there, and they must have eventually come to terms with the Ogre-Magi, who IMO were there already before the GRoF. The rakasta were then prolly enslaved in part and in part they lived as resistant nomads in the woods. Then the lupins came, in my theory after Taymor sank, and some were enslaved by Ogre-magi (chow-chow and houndlings), while others contacted the foo dogs and were befriended by them (crested), and others lived on their own (shar-pei). In the end they cooperated with rakasta and foo dogs to overthrow the Ogre-Magi and there you have Ochalea being influenced by "oriental" rakasta and "chinese" foo-dogs and Ogre-magi, thus becoming the Chinese Ochalea we know (and by reading Dragon mag #237, we can see Lupins are pretty much integrated and widespread in Ochalean society and cities, while prolly rakasta have stayed wilder) ;) As for Ogre-magi, I doubt they are related to ogres given their magical abilities and superior intelligence. They're prolly planar beings or have evolved differently, but not beastmen for sure (more likely they were a clan of Storm or Cloud giants cursed for something and condemned to live in Ochalea..just another theory, mind you :p) DM _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 01:41:55 -0700 From: DM Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:30:23 +0200, la Volpe wrote: << Consider that Alphatia is a vast Empire on Mystara. Not only, originally it comprised entire planets. So why should we think that the Alphatians are all alike? Ethnically we know that there are two "races": the true Alphatians, ethnically like the original Alphatians, and the common Alphatians, ethnically like the original Cypri. We can assume that the Ochaleans are a group (maybe the Cypri? or a subrace of the Cypri?) that spoke a M-Chinese language originally. Somehow, they were a minor, philosophical, group, in the shadow of the major ones (Air and Fire Followers), that ultimately sided with the Air Followers.>> A very nice idea and one I'd support gladly. ^_^ << Here we have two options to explain the nature of these "Alphatians-who-speak-or-spoke-Chinese-before-Landfall": a) the Ochaleans effectively speak M-Chinese, a different language from Alphatian; they could have been: a1) the original Cypri a2) a subrace of the Cypri a3) another conquered race>> I'd go with option number a3. << In any case they have been ethnically absorbed, but continue to speak their language. I would refuse the fourth hypothesis, "Ochaleans are an Alphatian subrace", because it would mean that Alphatians are Sino-Tibetans, something I am inclined to refuse because of the names of the cities and kingdoms of Alphatia Mainland and Bellissaria>> I agree. << b1) the Ochaleans, conquered by the Alphatians, continued to call themselves with their traditional names even if the language was more or less lost;>> This is a VERY interesting and above all SIMPLE option (Keep It Simple :p), and I'm very much in favour of it, but we should not forget the possible influence of the rakastan tongue ;) DM _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 01:59:36 -0700 From: DM Subject: Re: M-Malaysian Dan Eustace wrote: << The town of Kota-Jayang, in the HW's Merry Pirate Seas is M-Malaysian, based on the sound of the name. In the M-Almanac stuff that I did for the MPS I incorporated this w/o knowing where on Mystara these pirates originated from. They are human, however, not rakasta.>> Ah, very interesting! However, I cannot find A SINGLE REFERENCE to the settlement of Kota-Jayang in Hollow World (either books) and to the fact that its inhabitants must be humans. Can you point me to the sourcebook reference you used, Dan? ;) Otherwise I can suppose they are rakasta or humanoids of Skothar... :p DM _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:39:03 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History DM wrote: > > Problem: Alphatia only arrives on Mystara in BC 1000. > However, the Ethengars are ALREADY "Mongols" before > the coming of the Alphatians, Well, the Mongols were Mongols even before they met the Chinese, I suppose. However, since there may be M-Chinese traits in Ethengar, they could be easily explained the way I did, IMO. Moreover, that "Sargon" wizard can really be a pointer to Alphatia -- even though not necessarily related with M-Chinese influences. BTW, the Alphatians arrived to Glantri, which is right near Ethengar, so a single wizard -- or a small group -- could well have settled there for a time. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 04:23:59 -0700 From: DM Subject: Tentative History of Rakasta (Part 1/3) So as I promised, I am using my lunchbreak to translate from Italian to English the history of Rakasta we discussed on the Italian boards. I think Giulio and Giampaolo both have agreed on this final version. Before starting with the chronology however, you have to bear in mind the evolution of the rakasta breeds, so here we go: CAVE RAKASTA 1. Simbasta * 1.1 Mountain Rakasta (only in Brun)* 1.2 Lynxmen 1.3 Caracasta * 1.4 Servasta RAKASTODON FATALIS 1. Sherkasta 1-2.1 Pardasta (interbreeding of Jakar and Sherkasta)* 1-2.1.1 Cloud Pardasta 1-1-2.1.1 Snow Pardasta (interbreeding of Pardasta and Sherkasta tagh; only in the north) 2. Jakar 2.1 Jakarundi 2.2 Ocelotl Fast-runner: interbreeding of Pardasta and Servasta that originates in Davania; many of them later moved westwards with Minaeans around BC 100 (some settled on the Isle of Dawn, others in Skothar) * in Brun the mixed breeding of Pardasta, Mountain Rakasta and Simbasta created the Domestic Rakasta breeds (ca. 1800 BC) That said, this is the history we have devised to explain the different existing breeds of Rakasta and their diffusion on Mystara surface (and on Patera). Bear in mind that ALL DATES here ARE totally HYPOTHETICAL (barring those regarding the Savage Coast and Yazak Steppes). PART 1/3: FROM BC 5000 to BC 2000 BC 4800: Kum-rah (Cave Rakasta) and Ba-steh (Rakastodon Fatalis) become the first rakasta created by Ka. After Kum-rah's final death, Ba-steh undertakes the path towards immortality leaving her own house and "whelps" . BC 4600: Ba-steh becomes immortal and abandons the Multiverse in order to explore other dimensions, settling in the Dimension of Myth and introducing herself to Egyptian-like people under the name of Bast. Ka creates new rakasta from great cats based on the brood of Ba-steh and Kum-rah, and he lets them thrive in two regions of Mystara: Skothar (Rakastodon Fatalis) and Davania (Cave Rakasta). BC 3800: Cave Rakasta and Rakastodon Fatalis are nearly extinguished as theirs descendants have evolved into rakasta who are less powerful but have more advanced mental abilities. Ka transports some of the last samples of the two breeds in the Hollow World to preserve them, continuing to oversee the new rakasta of the outer world. > From the Cave rakasta derive the powerful Simbasta, which dominate the eastern region of Davania. > From the Rakastodon Fatalis derive the Sherkasta (which dwell in the southern forests of Skothar) and the Jakar (which dwell near the sherkasta and along the eastern Skotharian coasts). BC 3700: Simbasta spread up to the Aryptian Forest (pre-GRoF) and the Megala Kimata (central Davania). Discovered by the ever-expanding Blackmoorian Empire, the Skotharian rakasta react differently. The proud Sherkasta isolate even more, refusing whichever contact with the humans and becoming aggressive. The Jakar (and later the Pardasta) instead have more frequent exchanges, remaining however to the fringes of the Blackmoorian Empire. BC 3600: Simbasta reach and spread across the Addakian Wastes (western Davania). In Skothar, Sherkasta and Jakar who breed together create the new Pardasta subrace. BC 3500: The simbasta begin to drive away from the territory the weaker and less competitive members to preserve the strength of their clans; the first tribes of simbasta pariah are formed. Some of these are forced to migrate southwards (ancestors of the South Pole Lynxmen), crossing southern Davanian mountains to avoid clashing with the stronger male simbasta. These simbasta clash with the southern elves of Evergrun and become nomadic to avoid their enemies. BC 3400: As a result of strong Blackmoorian pressures, various pardasta tribes decide to migrate westwards. In the course of the following two centuries they will create permanent takeovers in Bellissaria (Cloud Pardasta), Alphatia, Isle of Dawn and Brun, reaching the nort-eastern coasts of Davania. A group of Sherkasta sages worshippers of Ssu-ma reveals to their own communities the secrets of writing and through Ssu-ma's direction they also start to communicate with pachydermions who dwell on the moon (Patera) through scrolls of communication and similar divination magics, believing them to be heralds of Ssu-ma. BC 3300: The simbasta reach the northern parts of Brun traveling through the landmasses that connect Davania with the proto-isle of Dawn and Norwold (which will later be submerged after the GRoF). Here they spread on the fringes of the blackmoorian colonies, often mistook for beastmen and hunted down, forced to escape northwards and westwards. BC 3200: Following Ssu-ma's visions, Skotharian sherkasta and pachydermions from Kompor-Thap build a magical gate that links both worlds and start to pay each other visits and exchange knowledge, keeping this secret to the nearby human communities. BC 3000: The Great Rain of Fire obliterates the Blackmoorian civilization and shifts the planetary axis wreaking havoc and destruction all around the world. The Jakars take their own ships and they escape eastwards in order to avoid earthquakes and the toxic clouds that pour out from the near Blackmoorian borders, founding colonies in the Arm of the Immortals. Other rakasta that live too close to the Blackmoorian Empire succumb to the disaster, while groups of sherkasta seek shelter on the higher mountains in order to escape to the plagues and the deadly radiations, becoming the Tagh group (sherkasta of the north). The simbasta of the southernmost regions of Davania and northernmost regions of Brun, having to adapt themselves to the new glacial climate, evolve in the Lynxmen breed. In Skothar, tribes of pardasta and sherkasta now find themselves living in the Arctic polar zone and they band together in order to survive, becoming the Snow Pardasta in the following century. Also in Skothar, when the unexpected GRoF strikes the sherkasta sages gather more people they can and transport their faithful followers on Patera (in Kompor-Thap) using the gate, before it is destroyed by the disaster. In the newly-formed islands of Ochalea and isle of Dawn clans of simbasta and pardasta remain isolated after the seas arise, and the same fate befalls the pardasta living in Bellissaria and Alphatia, and the simbasta of Cestia. BC 2900: On Patera, the pacific leadership of the wise sherkasta followers of Ssu-ma is questioned by the more warlike factions of the young sherkasta who do not remember the Great Rain of Fire. After a while the wilder sherkasta rebel to their leaders and to the pacific lifestyle preached by the followers of Ssu-ma (both sherkasta and pachydermion), and migrate with other adventuresome groups of sherkasta and pardasta outside the borders of Kompor-Thap, founding cultures inspired to that of their ancestors -the sherkasta Harimau-Belang who survive in the Skothar. These outcasts found in the following decades the nations of Surabayang (Malaysia), Malacayog (Indonesia) and Selimpore (Singapore). The group of more peaceful sherkasta instead continues to live close to the pachydermions of Kompor-Thap (Burma) creating a culture based on mysticism and founding the nation of Rajahstan (similar to buddhist India). BC 2800: The sherkasta of Rajahstan try to contact other survivors on Mystara, and discover that some of them are still alive. They start to interact with the Tagh and to influence their culture (making it a Tibetan civilization), but they leave the Harimau-Belang to their destiny after they prove to be wild and treacherous as much as the outcasts who rebelled against the laws of Ssu-ma on Patera. BC 2700: The Brunian simbasta have by now evolved becoming the breed of Mountain Rakasta. They live mostly in the wilderness, far from the human settlements. The pardasta of Brun instead continue to move in order to find suitable places to settle down, sometimes mixing with tribes of mountain rakasta, other times instead living close to human settlements. BC 2600: Some tribes of simbasta pariahs are driven in the more barren steppes of eastern Davania, where they are subjugated by the will of strongest simbasta, becoming predators of small game and subterranean rodents in order not to compete with the other simbasta. Over the course of the following centuries they will become the first Servasta. BC 2400: The rakasta of Brun settle in the northern Steppes of Yazak (mostly pardasta with some mountain rakasta) and form a civilization on the base of the predominant oriental culture of the pardasta. This civilization develops around the city state of Plaktur.[non-canon] BC 2300: Tribes of Pardasta in Davania mix with more humble servasta to resist the overwhelming pressure of the Simbasta. BC 2100: Fast-runner breed is created from Servasta and Pardasta interbreeding of the last two centuries. [to be continued...] _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:19:26 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History DM wrote: > As Iulius and Agathokles already said, Ethengar and > Ochalea DON'T HAVE MUCH IN COMMON. > They don't share the same tongue (fact) and we don't > know if they share the same alphabet. I've already wrote this many times: I think that Ethengar and Ochalea should have at least a remote link because both are clearly inspired by oriental cultures, particulary the mongolians and the chinese, and that's all. I'm not interested in finding a cultural and linguistic tree for Mystara that mirrors exactly the Real world one, nor I like to begin an argument about "my uncanon is more canon than yours". Probably I'll write my mystaran cultural history, if I'll have time, as anyone who so desire will write his. And I think that's all. bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 04:59:59 -0700 From: DM Subject: Tentative History of Rakasta (Part 2/3) PART 2/3 : FROM BC 2000 TO BC 1000 BC 1999: Lupins escaping from Taymor arrive in Ochalea and they must compete with the Ogre-magi and several groups of nomadic pardasta to settle. Many of them are immediately enslaved by the Ogre-magi (Ochalean houndlings and chow-chow), while others remain more or less free and work as mercenaries (shar-pei) or ally and find shelter among the foo-dogs (Ochalean crested). The conflict among the three groups will weaken them all. BC 1800: In Brun the costant interbreeding between mountain rakasta, pardasta and the last simbasta specimen create a smaller breed of rakasta with the most diverse features, forming the so-called Domestic rakasta or Mongrels. They share a common smaller shape, variable somatic traits and fur colors, and a definite imprinting for sedentary life and cooperation with other "humanoid" (not goblinoid) cultures. BC 1700: The massive invasion of hordes of goblinoids destroys the Plaktur civilization and forces the rakasta to escape southwards. Some groups of powerful sorcerers and nobles instead use a collective spell in order to escape en mass and they are transported on Myoshima, where they lay the basis for the foundation of a rakastan empire. The survivors on Mystara return to a nomadic existance, and they will be forced to move southwards until they will finally settle in Bellayne in the VII century BC. In Ochalea, rakasta and lupins under the leadership of the foo-dogs form an alliance after a couple of centuries of competition and exploiting the sudden sismic activity and volcanic eruptions in the north which throw the Ogre-magi civilization off-guard, they succeed in defeating the ogre-magi and to put an end to their tyranny. In the centuries that follow they form the base of the ochalean culture. BC 1600: Groups of simbasta pariahs living in the Megala Kimata savannah have evolved in the last centuries becoming the Caracasta, competing with Davanian pardasta and simbasta for territory and food. BC 1300: The Great Horde of Wogar marches from the Cradle through the Steppes of Yazak, heading westwards as a result of the visions of Wogar's shaman. On their path they destroy various settlements among which also those of the rakasta and elves, and they force several tribes to the move west- and southwards. In the Savage Coast, the goblinoid horde nearly annihilates the eleven and oltec civilizations. The surviving humans and elves revert to a primitive existence and semi-nomadism. BC 1200: Various families of Jakar that live in the heart of the Brunian rainforests change over the course of the centuries, assuming a distinctive black fur. Fhe first clans of Jakarundi spread in the Arm of the Immortals, learning the secrets of arcane magic from the last Oltec wizards living there. [to be continued...] _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:32:03 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > I don't see how, though: a single Rakasta-Human culture would either > be M-Chinese or M-Indonesian, not both. > It could either explain the Ochalea-Ethengar-Yasuko group, or the > ``Austronesian'' group. > I don't really see anything useful in a large ``Oriental'' group, > especially one that includes Sind as well. > I mean, obviously there are influences, but that doesn't mean we need > to have a single nation or an extended Human/Rakasta culture. It's not a single nation in my idea, just a single (but composite) origin. IMC in blackmoorian times you had a proto-oriental Oltec/Neathar culture in Skothar, that divided in a M-sino-mongolian-tibetan group and a M-southern chinese-austronesian before or just after the Great Rain of Fire. The first group later formed Ethengarians, and ethengarians I think formed Huleans and similar cultures mixing with neathars. The second group formed the oriental cultures of Skothar and of alphatian-alatian-dawn regions, and influenced (was influenced by) the rakasta. The correct cultural and linguistic tree could be better specified mirroring (a little) the Rw one, but really It's just a remote link you have between Ochale and Ethengar. Someone could say that the two oriental groups I imagined were not this way in the RW, but I don't care. This is Mystara: Rw history is just a tool for the setting, not a jail, and it's always been so in canon :-) 1) The Yasuko are > human, and have no contacts, in modern times, with Skotharian > Rakasta; 2) Same for the Ethengars, and the Rakasta never went that > far (except Lynxmen, who do not fall in the Skotharian group) 3) > Several Rakasta nations have no M-Chinese influence at all. I agree about no need of links between ethengars and rakasta, but yasuko could have been influenced by rakastan-human cultures of Skothar, if they are malaysian... bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 05:33:22 -0700 From: DM Subject: Tentative History of the Rakasta (Part 3/3) PART 3/3 : FROM BC 1000 TO THE PRESENT BC 997: Traldars fleeing Brun after the gnollish invasion arrive in Davania and found Milenia. After a few decades, the city becomes a thriving kingdom and later expands its borders by creating new settlements. BC 900: Caracasta ally with the newborn Milenian Empire and are enlisted as scouts and firstline footmen in the Milenian Army, learning to use bows and thus earning the disdain and hatred of the more traditional simbasta. BC 700: During the Milenian expansion towards east, the kerendan, thyatian and hattian tribes are put under great pressure. Thanks to the mediation of the caracasta, groups of fast-runner form an alliance with the Milenians in order to drive away the resistant tribes or to submit them. The fast-runners hope they will be authorized by the Milenians to settle the conquered lands, to escape the pressure of the simbasta and the servasta. BC 600: Alphatian commoners (those without magic) and clerics settle in Ochalea among the scattered communities of lupins and rakasta [You can have the Alphatians help the rakasta and lupins get rid of the Ogre-magi NOW, so they are more welcomed by these races.. as a matter of fact, it is better to have it like this ;)]. They carry with them the words of new and various immortals, influencing the ochalese mysticism while they progressively adopt the ochalean customs over the course of the following centuries, creating a peaceful society where all three races coexist. BC 400: Several tribes of Jakar of the Arm of the Immortals are touched by the words of Atzanteotl, who tempts and taints some with his teachings. Others however, after the initial conversion later abandon and reject him completely, having understood his wicked ways. These tribes are then cursed by Atzanteotl and are driven away from their territories by the clans faithful to Atzanteotl, settling in the southern part of the Arm of the Immortals and becoming the Ocelasta. BC 200: Various ocelasta, looking for a cure for their curse, move to nort-western Davania sailing across the sea. BC 100: The decadent Milenian Empire collapses under the pressure of the clans of simbasta and the southern Varellyan Empire. The caracasta try escape the repression of the simbasta moving to the north-west next to the coast, while various clans of fast-runners join the expedition of the city of Minaea towards east in order to leave Davania. During the voyage, the Minaeans stop in the Isle of Dawn, where they are however rejected by the thothians, but a group of fast-runners decides however to disembark, not liking to risk further on the sea, and settle in Thothian plains. BC 98: The Minaeans reach the southern Bellissarian coasts, but they are not welcome by the Alphatian settlers. After some other fast-runners leave their ships, they resume their voyage. BC 97: The Minaeans finally settle and found their colonies on the westernmost coast of Skothar, now called Minaean Coast. The Fast-runners move in the nearby steppes of Jen. AC 100: The humans move in the areas that later will become Eusdria and Robrenn; some elves and dwarves form an alliance with these humans. Lupins and rakasta build permanent settlements along the Savage Coast, in the lands that then will become Renardy and Bellayne. AC 550: In the area of Bellayne, the strong infuence of the Lawful Brotherhood (originally a religious order of the North) and the protection it offers against the goblinoids of steppes convinces many rakasta to join this order, learning its faith, customs and language. Many human memebers of the LB arrive in Bellayne and influence the evolution of the rakasta, causing a separation between the civilized rakasta and that nomadic ones. AC 800: The Hulean colonies in Davania are destroyed by the surviving Milenian city-states and the simbasta, and the survivors sail back to Hule taking along most of the caracasta who had allied with them. AC 900: Myoshiman explorers riding flying tigers establish the first contact with the rakasta civilization of Bellayne and with that of Ochalea, and diplomatic relatioships ensue. Over the course of the century some adventuresome rakasta migrate to Myoshima from Bellayne and Ochalea looking for fame, glory and riches. _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:30:39 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History Francesco Defferrari wrote: > > It's not a single nation in my idea, just a single (but composite) origin. > IMC in blackmoorian times you had a proto-oriental Oltec/Neathar culture in > Skothar, that divided in a M-sino-mongolian-tibetan group and a M-southern > chinese-austronesian before or just after the Great Rain of Fire. The first > group later formed Ethengarians, and ethengarians I think formed Huleans and > similar cultures mixing with neathars. Ok, clear. I still like more my idea, but at least now I understand yours a bit better. > Someone could say that the two oriental groups I imagined were not this way > in the RW, but I don't care. This is Mystara: Rw history is just a tool for > the setting, not a jail, and it's always been so in canon :-) Well, let's say that if I have to choose whether to ignore the origin of the two groups or the links between Ethengar and Ochalea I'll probably ignore the latter. As always, it's a matter of tastes. > I agree about no need of links between ethengars and rakasta, but yasuko > could have been influenced by rakastan-human cultures of Skothar, if they > are malaysian... Yes, though they seem more likely to be an Ochalean offshot, according to the sources. If they were sort-of malaysian, they'd probably be related to the natives of the Thanegioth archipelago. Bye, GP -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 07:59:24 -0700 From: Herve Musseau Subject: Re: RES: [MYSTARA] Ochalea > From: André Martins > You have a very good memory (that was seven years ago), Herve, but not a > perfect one. me not robot :) sorry, it's old and i wasn't sure anymore, and i may have had second-hand accounts (I was not part of the MOrient project) even then. But see, this means that I liked your idea, and indeed always kept it in mind. > I was the one who made the suggestion of the legend when we > were working on how a nation as strong as the plans for Chung-Eun were could > not be known in the Known World. Btw, I still have many of those old emails > of the MOrient list in a zip file here, if anyone would want to see those, > just tell me. Lots of discussions, with people still trying to make up their > minds about what should be where, but now that I was taking a look at it, we > did manage to get quite a few things started and there are tons of ideas > there. The thing I don't have there is the MOrient map, drawn at the time, > depicting the location of many nations that were being proposed, but you can > find that in Thibault's site, of course. I think I have most of those files, and they are on the Skothar group (someone sent them to me when they did some cleanup, I think it was Jenni but I hope i'm not confusing people again...) But André since you were part of the MOrient project and even wrote this legend, what do you think of my idea? What inputs can you provide us? Please try to rebound and expand upon what I said, if you like it. ===== ___________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:14:11 -0300 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: Tentative History of the Rakasta (Part 3/3) Okay, I've used my lunch break to read it. ;) I like it. It's nice. Damn. :D But it doesn't answer all my questions about Ochalea's current culture. Unfortuneately lunch is over. I'll have to ruminate on it later. Cheers. Steve On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 05:33:22 -0700, DM wrote: > PART 3/3 : FROM BC 1000 TO THE PRESENT > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 18:11:26 -0500 From: James Mishler Subject: Re: TRALDARS DM Quoth: "Also, these nomadic M-Slavs (call it Daras or whatever) didn't BUILD a culture: they MERGED with the Traldars to form a distinctive ethnic group called Traladarans, which got a strong Traldar heritage (the myths) and a less strong Daras one (no history but more linguistic and DNA influence). There might be also nowadays nomadic Daras which you can use as Mystaran roms (gypsies)." Like, saaaay... the Darine, hmmm? Just to poke about a bit here, there's no reason to presume the original Traldar culture could not evolve, over a period of 2000 years, from an "Achaean Greek" style to a "Slavic" type. Especially with the number of other various migrations that occured in the region over the centuries. As for the "Romanian" influece, well, I've always posited that the mostm "Romanian" types were along the southern coast and middle riverine systems, and the development thereof was due to centuries of continual trade and interaction with the Thyatians and Kerendans. The northern hill and forest folk further differentiated by an additional influx of Nithian blood, circa 700 to 500 BC, when hundreds of Nithian refugees fled the internecine wars of the last dynasty -- and later lost their own culture and adopted that of the locals, adding in superstitions and such that evolved from the faint remnants of their old Nithian culture. The two different influences (Nithian in the north, Thyatian/Kerendan in the south) explains a difference in language, general culture, and even appearance (the northerners more swarthy, Slavic types, the southerners paler, Romanian types). Mystaros ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 20:07:53 -0700 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Rakasta and Lupins in the Hollow World --- Havard Faanes wrote: > Inspired by the recent discussions, > what subraces of Rakasta and Lupins can be found in > the Hollow World, and where would be suitable > locations for these races? While working with Mischa Gelman on the Hutaaka Gazetteer, I proposed placing the lupins (at least early lupins) in the same region, which we nicknamed, "The Valley of the Dogs". The Hutaaka act as missionaries among them, and the lupins sometimes find themselves at war with the gnolls of the western (in HW terms) hills- the gnolls being a recent transplant by Ranivorus, who foresaw that the Soderfjord gnolls might be endangered in the future, and who could use them for his own ends (particularly with nearby Nithia to work with). As for rakasta, I'd imagine the jungles to the west of Nithia (in Tanagoro territory) would be a suitable place for rakasta cultures- probably the more "ancient" breeds we've been talking about lately. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 00:09:10 -0400 From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: M-Malaysian > Dan Eustace wrote: > << The town of Kota-Jayang, in the HW's Merry Pirate > Seas is M-Malaysian, based on the sound of the name. > In the M-Almanac stuff that I did for the MPS I > incorporated this w/o knowing where on Mystara these > pirates originated from. They are human, however, not > rakasta.>> > DM wrote: > Ah, very interesting! However, I cannot find A SINGLE > REFERENCE to the settlement of Kota-Jayang in Hollow > World (either books) and to the fact that its > inhabitants must be humans. Can you point me to the > sourcebook reference you used, Dan? ;) > Otherwise I can suppose they are rakasta or humanoids > of Skothar... :p There is nowhere that it says they are not rakasta. The HW guide says that the pop. of the MPS is human and hin. Not sure, but IIRC, the hin were ~10%. The 4 main groups of pirates used are Traldar, Thyatian, Northmen, and Ierendian (human & hin). There are other peoples represented, as individual pirate ships have been added over the centuries, and there have been additions from other HW peoples. In fleshing out the MPS for the M-Almanac, I added a Savage Coast influence for Puerto Morillos (I think there is a town with the same name in the SC), and an M-Malasian/Indonesian for Kota-Jayang. These towns are found on the HW map, w/o any added description. I think it would be fine to have some M-Indo rakasta pirates based out of K-J. I would not want to make the whole town rakasta dominated, though. But I guess that depends on what the MML ultimately comes up with for these peoples. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 08:38:05 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: M-Malaysian Dan Eustace wrote: > > In fleshing out the MPS for the > M-Almanac, I added a Savage Coast influence for Puerto Morillos (I think > there is a town with the same name in the SC), Yes, it is the capitol of Narvaez. Note that any addition from the Savage Baronies to the HW must have happened less than a century ago. This makes the whole issue of Puerto Morillos more complex than others. It is possible that the original people of Puerto Morillos (HW) were Ispan people from Thyatis, rather than Espa from the Savage Coast. > and an M-Malasian/Indonesian > for Kota-Jayang. These towns are found on the HW map, w/o any added > description. I think it would be fine to have some M-Indo rakasta pirates > based out of K-J. Definitely :o) -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 24 Oct 2004 to 25 Oct 2004 (#2004-230) ****************************************************************