Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 25 Oct 2004 to 26 Oct 2004 (#2004-231) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 27/10/2004, 18:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 11 messages totalling 709 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. ETHENGAR (2) 2. Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History 3. Tentative History of Rakasta (Part 1/3) (3) 4. TRALDARS (4) 5. Basical Ethnic and Linguistic Guidelines for Mystara (1 of 3) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/default.aspx To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 01:15:17 -0700 From: DM Subject: Re: ETHENGAR Giampaolo Agosta wrote: << Well, the Mongols were Mongols even before they met the Chinese, I suppose. However, since there may be M-Chinese traits in Ethengar, they could be easily explained the way I did, IMO.>> I state it again: there are no signs of similarities between Ochalea and Ethengar, and I don't see why we should add them using unlikely links. But these are my two cents, of course ;) << Moreover, that "Sargon" wizard can really be a pointer to Alphatia -- even though not necessarily related with M-Chinese influences.>> As the saying goes: one swallow doesn't make a summer ;) He could be an Alphatian wizard who settled in that region because (much like Barimoor is doing now in Ylaruam) he wanted to undertake the path of the Paragon in a rather backwards region where his plans wouldn't have been disturbed by the thousands of wizards in Alphatia. Unfortunately he failed... ;) << BTW, the Alphatians arrived to Glantri,which is right near Ethengar, so a single wizard -- or a small group -- could well have settled there for a time.>> C'mon, we're talking about Alphatian wizards here! Do you really think they came to Glantri by traveling through the Northern Reaches and Ethengar by caravan or by foot? ;) They're air elementalists, so they have likely used spells to move from Alphatia to Glantri (either by teleporting or flying or traveling aboard flying vessels or even crossing through the elemental planes and the ethereal..) ^_^ DM _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:58:45 +0200 From: la Volpe Subject: Re: Investigating (Inventing) Ochalean History > --- Francesco Defferrari ha scritto: > The correct > cultural and linguistic tree > could be better specified mirroring (a little) the > Rw one, > Someone could say that the two oriental groups I > imagined were not this way > in the RW, but I don't care. This is Mystara: Rw > history is just a tool for > the setting, not a jail, and it's always been so in > canon :-) Yes, you're right in not caring - it's perfectly legitimate. However, I have always made it clear that my ideas and observations come from the premise that I want to follow the RW linguistic tables as far as possible, and the evolution of languages too. It's just my idea, I hope I didn't sound imposing or obnoxious in any way...I just wanted to give my opinion, that follows my personal idea of the setting. If anyone has felt pressed or attacked by my comments, I apologize, it wasn't my idea in any way. I am just discussing. In the end I agree with Andrew, anybody can do whatever he pleases and it's good to see different writings. Then anyone can choose what's to his/her own liking in his/her campaign. Many contrasting ideas are better than no idea! Giulio ___________________________________ Nuovo Yahoo! Messenger: E' molto più divertente: Audibles, Avatar, Webcam, Giochi, Rubrica… Scaricalo ora! http://it.messenger.yahoo.it ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:23:55 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Tentative History of Rakasta (Part 1/3) DM wrote: > So as I promised, I am using my lunchbreak to > translate from Italian to English the history of > Rakasta we discussed on the Italian boards. I think > Giulio and Giampaolo both have agreed on this final > version. ...except for the Ochalean part, where I consider most likely that the Rakasta of Ochalea later moved away, bringing M-Chinese traits to Myoshima, the Yazak Steppes, and perhaps the Tagh. (DM, the fact that the discussion was finished does not mean that *I* agreed with what you were saying on this topic! :oP ) Bye, -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:32:49 +0200 From: la Volpe Subject: Re: TRALDARS --- James Mishler ha scritto: > DM Quoth: > > Just to poke about a bit here, there's no reason to > presume the original > Traldar culture could not evolve, over a period of > 2000 years, from an > "Achaean Greek" style to a "Slavic" type. Especially > with the number of > other various migrations that occured in the region > over the centuries. In my humble opinion, there are several reasons. Here is my way of thought: 1) Premise: Let's assume that languages on Mystara work similarly to languages on Earth. Let's assume that Traldar language was the equivalent of Ancient Greek, and Traladaran is the equivalent of one of the Slavic languages (or an "original" fantastic language that, if existing, would be part of the Slavic linguistic family). 2) Note that, if you refuse from the start the need to have a RW-compatible language system, then there are no problems whatsoever in saying that the Traldar language became the Traladaran language, even without any contact with other cultures. However, I'll follow my premises and thus to have a so radical change of language (from Greek to Slavic) we need the intervention of a foreign population. 3) From Canon sources there haven't been migrations to Traladara. The only contacts indicated by Canon sources are those with Thyatis. Thus, a)either we decide that a small population speaking Proto-Slavic arrived in Traladara (DM called them Dar-something, personally I used Vatli when I devised them*), and thus we'd have to bend around Canon, b) or we decide that we don't follow RW linguistics (at least in THIS situation). My idea is option A. And now back to the Darine: James' and Jennifer's "Darine" as M-Rom have just a basic problem: they are not M-Slavic, but Traldar (thus M-Greek), and thus they cannot be the Slavic element we need for changing the Traldar into Traladarans. Personally I used the "Vatli" (re-used by DM in his Tentative History of the Traldars, although he changed their name), members of the Antalian linguistic supergroup. Note that in my new Ethnography (which I haven't still time to post), I used the Antalians not simply as Proto-Germans, but as the equivalent of the linguistic/ethnic European group, from which Germans, Latins and Slavic all originated. In this way, considering that the Antalians of 1700 BC, those saved in the Hollow World because of Loark's hordes, were already proto-Germans, we could have this short timeline: 2400 BC: Antalians equivalent to RW European supergroup 2100 BC: Antalians divided into three groups: Vantalians (west), Antalians and Thantalians (south). Vantalians are Proto-Slavic, Antalians (among whom are the ancestors of Heldann, Northmen and Hattians) are Proto-German, and Thantalians (among whom are the original Thyatians and Kerendans) are Proto-Italics/Latins. The Vatli would be descendants of the Vantalians that became nomads and fled their ancestral regions after the arrival of Loark. Then they arrived in the Five Shires and thence to Traladara. They would mix with the Traldar. As many different dialects are present in Traladara according to GAZ1, the various communities would have more or less Greek or Slavic dialects depending on the influence of the Vatli on the Traldar. In my opinion, this is a good option to preserve as far as possible Canon, although I admit without any problem that the arrival of the Vatli or whatever you call them would be a considerable change from Canon. On the other side, *personally* I prefer to change Canon instead of bending the RW linguistic rules. But that's just a matter of taste. DM says he used the name "Darans" or what it is because Traldar+Darans=Traladarans, but frankly I don't see the need for this, as the change from Traldar to Traladarans is obvious to my eyes as it is the RW from Italics to Italians, or Roman to Rumenians or many other examples. Giulio ___________________________________ Nuovo Yahoo! Messenger: E' molto più divertente: Audibles, Avatar, Webcam, Giochi, Rubrica… Scaricalo ora! http://it.messenger.yahoo.it ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:05:43 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: TRALDARS Back to my original idea of the Traldars picking up some Slavic from a humanoid like the Gnolls. The traldars were influenced by the Hutakans at one point, would this account for enough influence to be the Slavic aspect of their culture? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 18:17:40 +0200 From: la Volpe Subject: Re: TRALDARS --- Chris Cherrington ha scritto: > Back to my original idea of the Traldars picking up > some Slavic from a humanoid like the Gnolls. > The traldars were influenced by the Hutakans at one > point, would this account for enough influence to be > the Slavic aspect of their culture? Hmm...I fear not. The problem is that historical Traldar (thus, more influenced by the Hutaakans) are M-Greek, while later, when the Hutaakan influence is removed, they gradually become M-Slavic. Moreover, the info on the Hutaakans in the "Hollow World" boxed set doesn't really present a M-Slavic culture. So my humble opinion would be "no"...8-) Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ___________________________________ Nuovo Yahoo! Messenger: E' molto più divertente: Audibles, Avatar, Webcam, Giochi, Rubrica… Scaricalo ora! http://it.messenger.yahoo.it ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 18:20:04 +0200 From: la Volpe Subject: Re: Tentative History of Rakasta (Part 1/3) > Agathokles wrote: > ...except for the Ochalean part, where I consider > most likely that the > Rakasta of Ochalea later moved away, bringing > M-Chinese traits to > Myoshima, the Yazak Steppes, and perhaps the Tagh. > Yes, I agree with this point...only one question: do you think ALL Rakastas left? I thought there were some Pardasta left on Ochalea, am I wrong? Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ___________________________________ Nuovo Yahoo! Messenger: E' molto più divertente: Audibles, Avatar, Webcam, Giochi, Rubrica… Scaricalo ora! http://it.messenger.yahoo.it ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 18:29:56 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: TRALDARS Chris Cherrington wrote: > Back to my original idea of the Traldars picking up some Slavic from a humanoid like the Gnolls. > The traldars were influenced by the Hutakans at one point, would this account for enough influence to be the Slavic aspect of their culture? Going by the hypoteses given by Iulius, I'd say no, for two reasons: 1) This influence happens before the ``golden age'', and therefore would apply to Milenian and Golden Age Traldar as well 2) The Hutaakan likely speak some variant of Nithian, while the Slavic influence should come from some Antalian-like group (i.e., M-Indoeuropean). Bye, GP -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 23:01:22 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: ETHENGAR DM ha scritto: > > He could be an Alphatian wizard who settled in that > region because (much like Barimoor is doing now in > Ylaruam) he wanted to undertake the path of the > Paragon in a rather backwards region where his plans > wouldn't have been disturbed by the thousands of > wizards in Alphatia. Unfortunately he failed... ;) Of course. But remember that a Paragon must create a special population for his lands. This one might have brought a group of Alphatian (or M-Chinese, Lycanthrope, etc.) servants to form the core of this special population. > C'mon, we're talking about Alphatian wizards here! Do > you really think they came to Glantri by traveling > through the Northern Reaches and Ethengar by caravan > or by foot? ;) Not at all. But if they arrived to Glantri, they could as well get to Ethengar. GP ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 23:03:23 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Tentative History of Rakasta (Part 1/3) la Volpe ha scritto: > >> ...except for the Ochalean part, where I consider >> most likely that the >> Rakasta of Ochalea later moved away, bringing >> M-Chinese traits to >> Myoshima, the Yazak Steppes, and perhaps the Tagh. > > Yes, I agree with this point...only one question: > do you think ALL Rakastas left? Not necessarily. Indeed, as you say: > I thought there were > some Pardasta left on Ochalea, am I wrong? Yes, there are. Of course, there no reason why some (or even many) Rakasta could not remain, especially in some forlorn area. GP ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 06:31:51 +0000 From: adrian mattias Subject: Re: Basical Ethnic and Linguistic Guidelines for Mystara (1 of 3) Very interesting. I am glad you posted this. > From: la Volpe > Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: [MYSTARA] Basical Ethnic and Linguistic Guidelines for Mystara (1 > of 3) > Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 01:11:51 +0200 > > BASICAL ETHNIC AND LINGUISTIC GUIDELINES FOR MYSTARA > > 1. Introduction > These guidelines are based on the Earth's own > languages, linguistic theories and ethnic theories. > > Some references used in my work are: > > Manuel Barbera, "Introduzione alla Linguistica > Generale", > http://www.bmanuel.org/courses/corling_idx.html, 2002, > revised January 2004 > Luigi Luca Cavalli Sforza, "Geni, popoli e lingue", > Adelphi, Milano, 1996 > Francisco Villar, "Los Indoeuropeos y los origines de > Europa", II edition, Editorial Gredos, Madrid, 1996 > Cavalli Sforza/Menozzi/Piazza, "The History and > Geography of Human Genes", Princeton University Press, > 1994 > > I have tried, where Mystaran countries, ethnicities > and languages resemble Earth ones, to apply a 1:1 > correspondence, as much as possible. I have based > myself on the evolution of human language on Earth. > Where there are still doubts and uncertainties > regarding some real world issues (like the origin of > japanese language) among scholars of the field, I have > chosen, when possible, theories that seem at least > reasonable to the scientific community, and that are > so difficult to prove, that their solution will (if > ever) appear so far in the future that I don't fear I > will soon (if ever) have to change this work... > > 2. Ethnicities, cultures and languages > (note: if you are not interested in the reasons and > explanation of HOW I developed this Mystaran > Ethnography, jump to the next chapter, the first of > the second mail of this document) > > The first thing we must remember when dealing with > ethnography and linguistics is that there is not > always a true correspondance between ethnicity and > language. There are many simple examples to this. > Probably most of those who are reading this are > Americans. Probably most of their mother tongue is > English. However, many of them are not of English > ethnicity (the obvious ones, the Afroamericans and > Native Americans - note: I am Italian and therefore I > apologize in advance if I referred to them in a > non-politically correct way - just in case I did, > forgive me!). > > This said, we must for the first thing deal with the > Mystaran main ethnic groups. According to the "Hollow > World Boxed Set", there are three main human > ethnicities: Neathar, Oltecs, and Tanagoro. A rough > terrestrial equivalent for these ethnicities are > "White Men", "Almond-shaped eyes" and "Black Men". > > This table shows the ethnical evolution theory I have > based my revised Mystaran Ethnography on: > > 1. "Black Men" > > 2. "Others" > -->2.1. Native Australians > -->2.2. Southeastern Asians > -->2.3. Eurasians > ------------>2.3.1. Asians > --------------------->2.3.1.1. Orientals ("Yellow > Men") > --------------------->2.3.1.2. Native Americans ("Red > Men") > ------------>2.3.2. Caucasoids ("White Men") > > > The following table shows which linguistic groups > belong to which ethnicity (note: I have deliberately > omitted some of the most obscure linguistic groups > that don't seem to have a Mystaran equivalent), the > one on which I based my work, looks like this: > > 1. "Black Men" > --->1.1 Nile-saharians > --->1.2 Khoisan (eg: Bushmen) > --->1.3 Niger-kordafanian (eg: Bantu, Swahili) > > 2.1. Native Australians = Australian languages > > 2.2. Southeastern Asians > ------>x) Austric groups (eg: Viet, Thai, Mon-Khmer, > Polinesian languages, some Southern Chines languages) > ------>y) Indopacific group (eg: Papua) > > 2.3.1.1. Oriental Asians > --->a) Sinocaucasian group > ------->a1) Sinotibetans (Chinese, Tibetan) > ------->a2) Nadene (Apache, Navajo) > --->b) Uralo-altaic (eg: Finnish, Hungarian, Turkish, > Mongolian) > > 2.3.1.2. Amerindians = most Native American languages > > 2.3.2. Caucasoids > ---> A) Indoeuropeans (eg: Latins, Greek, Celts, > Germans, Indians) > ---> B) Afroasians > ------->B1) Semites (eg: Arabians, Jews) > ------->B2) Camites (eg: Egyptians) > > In most cases, the correspondances between Mystara and > Earth are evident. However, as I said above, sometimes > a population belonging ethnically to one group, speaks > a language that developed in (and thus "belongs to") a > different ethnic group from that of the languages > generally associated to it. And sometimes two > populations cross themselves, but then retain only the > language of one of the two (probably more or less > influenced from the other). > > I want to point out three important examples that I > have studied with attention because they present > features that are interesting for Earth's history and > for Mystara's ethnography. > > > 1) A clear example of this are the European > populations. Among the Europeans, between 90 and 100% > of the genes indicate a "Caucasoid" origin, and > according to which area of Europe, between 10 and 0% > indicate a Finnic (and thus "Asiatic"!) origin. It is > also to be noted that the features of blonde hair and > blue eyes originated among the Finnic populations (of > Asiatic origin) that lived around the Balt Sea before > the arrival of Indoeuropean populations. Finland is > the only place where these features have remained tied > to the language - about 10% of the population's genes > are Finnic, and their language belongs to the > Uralo-altaic group (thus, the group of their Finnic > ancestors). The other Europeans that most prominently > feature these somatic traits (Balts, Norwegians and > Swedes) speak Indoeuropean languages. > > > 2) The linguists and genetists are generally oriented > toward thinking that: > a) there has been a common origin of the modern human > race (probably Africa) > b) there have been several different origins of the > human languages - probably there isn't a "original" > human language, but there have been several ones > > Trying to push the borders of languages as far back as > possible, we find: > > i) the three African groups (separated from each > other) > ii) the Nostratic supergroup > iii) the Sinocaucasic supergroup > iv) the Amerindian group (includes most Native > American tongues) > v) the Austric supergroup > vi) the Australian and Indopacific groups (probably > related) > > The Nostratic group includes: Semite, Camite, > Indoeuropean, Uralo-altaic, among others. > > This means that, while the Uralo-altaic populations > are of Asiatic ethnicity, they speak languages related > to the Caucasoid populations, and NOT to the > Sinotibetan and Amerindian languages, thus NOT to > their "ethnicity". And moreover, Sinotibetan and > Amerindian languages are NOT related either! > > Thus, I thought of this correspondance between Mystara > and Earth: > > 1. Tanagoro > The Tanagoro are the equivalent of the "Black Men". > All Mystaran populations that speak languages > equivalent to those belonging to the three African > linguistic groups belong to the Tanagoro ethnicity. > Thus, we have these Canonic populations: Tanagoro, > Tangor Men, Nuari, Yavi. > > 2. Oltecs > The Oltecs are ethnically the equivalent of the > "Asians". They separated in two groups BEFORE the > developement of language: > a) the first group includes the ancestors of Imperial > Oltecs, Azcans and Atruaghin, and is the equivalent of > the Earth's Amerindians > b) the second group includes the ancestors of the > Ethengarians, and is the equivalent of the Earth's > Uralo-altaic > > 3. The Ochaleans, the only Canon human population on > Mystara that speaks a Sino-tibetan language, are not > Oltecs but Alphatians. This leaves us with the > question what origin the Sino-Tibetan languages may > have. Especially since we know that there is a Rakasta > culture on Skothar, the Tagh, that seems the > equivalent of the Earth's Tibetans. I'll return to > this later. > > 4. Neathar > The "true" Neathar ethnicities are the equivalent of > Indoeuropeans, Semites and Camites, thus the ancestors > of Antalians, Alasiyans and Nithians. Two facts must > be noted: > > a) At some point in Mystaran history, the > Indoeuropeans interacted with a Finnic population > (thus belonging to the Uralo-Altaic Oltecs), probably > in Norwold, and from this the blue eyes/blonde hair > became a somatic trait associated also to the > Indoeuropeans cultures. Like on Earth, the more the > populations lived near the place of origin of those > somatic trait, the more they became present among the > population. Thus, the Antalians and their descendants > are the Neathar populations with more of these > features. > > b) The original Neathar language was spoken both by > the Neathar populations, and both by their neighbours, > the Uralo-altaic Oltecs that are ancestors of the > Ethengarians. > > 5. There are only two Canon cultures that belong to > the Austric linguistic group: the Makai, and the > Harimau-Beng Rakastas of Skothar. The Makai are > ethnically Neathar, but their language is in no way > related to the Nostratic ones; thus, I thought that > they could have been conquered, in very ancient times, > by a Rakasta population related to the Harimau-Belang. > More on this later. > > 6. The Australian group is represented on Mystara by > the non-human Wallaras (from the Savage Coast/Orc's > Head Peninsula setting). > > And now, you know most of the ideas I thought of when > writing the following part... > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________ > Nuovo Yahoo! Messenger: E' molto più divertente: Audibles, Avatar, Webcam, > Giochi, Rubrica… Scaricalo ora! > http://it.messenger.yahoo.it > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/default.aspx > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 25 Oct 2004 to 26 Oct 2004 (#2004-231) ****************************************************************