Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 26 Oct 2004 to 27 Oct 2004 (#2004-232) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 28/10/2004, 18:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 14 messages totalling 1093 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. TRALDARS (7) 2. Basical Ethnic and Linguistic Guidelines for Mystara (2 of 3) (very long) 3. Ethnography Focus: Notes on Antalians and other M-Indoeuropeans 4. Basical Ethnic and Linguistic Guidelines for Mystara 5. Basical Ethnic and Linguistic Guidelines for Mystara, Tanagoro 6. Basical Ethnic and Linguistic Guidelines for Mystara, Yavdlom 7. Basical Ethnic and Linguistic Guidelines for Mystara, Yavdlom 8. Real Halfings! ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/default.aspx To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 03:16:05 -0700 From: DM Subject: Re: TRALDARS On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:05:43 -0400, Chris Cherrington wrote: << Back to my original idea of the Traldars picking up some Slavic from a humanoid like the Gnolls. The traldars were influenced by the Hutakans at one point, would this account for enough influence to be the Slavic aspect of their culture?>> If you look into Hollow World sourcebook and probably also B10, Night's Dark Terror, you'll see that the hutaakans have an Egyptian-like culture, having been created by Pflarr himself at the times of Nithia, and that they retained this culture up to the present. Their written language and "noble tongue" is also Nithian, while their common tongue (hutaakan) is made of barks and similar sounds. So no, this cannot be possibly the "Slavic" influence we're looking for. And besides, the Hutaakans "influence" (or better, they culturally dominate) the Nithian Traldars from BC1400 to BC1000, and by BC 1000 if they were responsible for the Slavic influence we should already have Slavic Traladarans living in Karameikos. However, we do know for sure that by BC1000 the Traldars have in fact CHANGED from a NITHIAN (egyptian) heritage to a Greek one, and the Traldars of the Golden Age the Immortals move to the HW are in fact those of the period between BC 1000 and BC 950 (during the Gnollish Invasion), who have been abandoned by the Hutaakans and have developed their own "heroic" culture. Finally, I totally subscribe to Iulius's theory on the Traldars-Traladarans matter. We cannot simply say "they evolve from Greek to Slavic in 1500 years" (from BC1000 to BC 500 according to the official timeline) because that's not reasonable in real world. otherwise we could say "they evolve from Egyptian to Greek" with no need of another link, but this is likewise absurd. If you want to make it a realistic and believable change, you have to find the missing link between Egyptian Traldars and Greek Traldars (IMO the taymora survivors) and between the Greek Traldars and the Traladarans (IMO the Slavic Antalians named "vatli" by Iulius or "darans" by me, but they're just the same). DM __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:13:24 +0200 From: la Volpe Subject: Basical Ethnic and Linguistic Guidelines for Mystara (2 of 3) (very long) 3. Basical Human Ethnographic Table (annotated) ----------------------------------------------- 1. Tanagoro (1) ---> 1.1 Tanagoro (2) --------->1.1.1 Tangor --------->1.1.2 Nuari ---------> (+ Sheyallia Elves) ---> 1.1.3 Yavi ---> [1.2 M-Khoisanid/Bushmen] Little to say about the Tanagoro, the equivalent of black African. All the Tanagoro-descended human cultures seem to be the equivalent of Niger-kordafanians, especially Bantu or Swahili like. There is plenty of room for detailing the Tangor Men of Skothar (nearly nothing has been written about them), and even Nuari don't have so many things written about them, apart from their naturalistic philosophy. The Yavi are much more detailed, and they share an elven ancestry, coming from the Sheyallia elves that lived in the Serpent Peninsula. I have included a reference to M-Khoisanid/Bushmen, because if someone wants to detail such a culture, it could fit in this place of the Ethnographic Table. 2. Oltecs (1) ---> 2.1 Oltecs (2) ---------> * ---------> 2.1.1 Imperial Oltecs (3) ---> 2.1.1.1 Savage Coast Oltecs ---------> 2.1.2 Azcans ---> 2.1.2.1 Atruaghin ---> [2.2 Yali] ---------> [2.2.1 M-Turk/Mongol] --------------------------------> 2.2.1.1 Ethengarians --------------------------------> 2.2.1.2 Huleans [& Azar] --------------------------------> [2.2.1.3 Kazmen] --------------------------------> [2.2.1.4 Tunguski] --------------------------------> [2.2.1.5 Douzbaki] --------------------------------> [2.2.1.6 Monzagians & Visi] ---------> [2.2.2 M-Uralo/Altaic] -----------------------> [2.2.2.1 M-Finns] --------------------------------> [2.2.2.1.a Saamari] -----------------------> [2.2.2.2] --------------------------------> [2.2.2.2.a Vaarana] --------------------------------> [2.2.2.2.b Sendarians] ---> [2.3 M-Sino-Tibetan/Proto-Chinese] ---------> [2.3.1 Proto-Ochalese] The Oltecs have been chosen as the ancestors of all Asian cultures (except those of Austric origin, as explained in the first installment). I have divided them in three groups, of which only two are canonical. The first group is that of the "true" Oltecs, equivalent to the Native Americans. They are ancestors of Imperial Oltecs, Azcans, Atruaghin, and of the Oltec population of the Savage Coast (that provides the "indio" background of South America natives invaded by the Spanish/Portuguese). The second group has been called the "Yali" (more on the source for the name later). They are the ancestors of canonical Ethengarians and Huleans, and of non-canonical Saamari and Vaarana (Laplanders and similar, created by James Mishler). I'll return on the Ethengarians later, in the session dedicated to Mystaran linguistics. Kazmen (M-Kazaki), Douzbaki (M-Uzbeki), Azar (M-Azeri), Tunguski (M-Tungusi), Monzagians (M-Hungarians), Sendarians (M-Samoieds) are part of the non-canonical "Great Hule" and "Western Brun" setting written by Christian Constantin and Adrian Mattias. Visi, related to Monzagians, have been invented by Giulio Caroletti for the "Mystaran Almanac" project. The M-Finns are the equivalent of the Finnic populations that, living around the Balt Sea, developed the blue eyes and blonde hair features that now are common among people of European (and thus mostly Indoeuropean) ancestry. Probably they developed these features in the area that linked Skothar to Brun (see Hollow World Map), where they were in the position to transmit these features to the Neathar populations of east (Valemen) and west (Antalians), thus accounting for the presence of blue eyes and blonde hair in the "Known World" setting and in the "Blackmoor d20" setting. Note also that the Saamari (M-Suomi, Finlanders) and the Vaarana (M-Sami, Laplanders) (non-canonic populations created by James Mishler) both speak a M-uralo-altaic language (and thus have been collocated at this point of the table), but the interaction with Antalians and M-Indoeuropeans has resulted in the fact that Saamari have a 90% of Neathar blood (and only 10% of original Oltec), while the Vaarana have a 50% Neathar 50% Oltec. The third group has been indicated as "M-Sino-tibetan-proto-chinese". There are no human canonical cultures belonging to this group (the Ochaleans are alien), but if someone wants to create such a culture (or detail a Proto-Ochalese culture that mixed with the Alphatian invaders), this would be its position in the chart. I'll return on the history and geographical collocation of the original Oltecs and their possible migrations in a following article, called "Notes on Oltecs and a possible M-Orient". Note: * refers to the influence of Oltec blood in the Sindhi population; however, the Sindhi has been placed in the Neathar group because of their language (M-Indoeuropean, and not M-Asiatic) 3. Neathar ---> [3.1 Lhomar --> 3.1. Lhomarrians] ---> 3.2 Thonians (1) -------> 3.2.1 Blackmoorians -------> 3.2.2 Thonians (2) ---> [3.3 Aharians] see later for more details -------> [3.3.1 Valharians]---> eg: Valemen, [Littonians] -------> [3.3.2 Daharians] ---> eg: Antalians, Skandaharians -------> [3.3.3 Dunharians] --> eg: [Dunael], [Carnuilh], Thratians -------> [3.3.4 Dulharians] --> eg: Traldar, Milenians, Minaeans -------> [3.3.5 Dravharians] -> eg: Dravi, Urduk, Sindhi ---> 3.4 [M-Camites] -------> 3.4.1 Afridhi -------> 3.4.2 Nithians (1) -----------------------> 3.4.2.1 Nithians (2) -----------------------> 3.4.2.2 Thothians -----------------------> ** -------> 3.4.3 Makai ---> 3.5 [M-Semites] -------> 3.5.1 Taymora (A) -------> 3.5.2 Alasiyans The Neathar (M- Caucasoid Nostratics) have been divided into five groups. The first group is that of the Lhomar/Lhomarrians, created by Geoff Gander. They would have been the first Neathar group to develope an autonomous culture, language and identity - and probably the first true human civilization on Mystara. The second group is that of the Thonians and their spinoff, the Blackmoorians. As it is impossible to understand how Mystara was like during the Nuclear Era (4000-3000 BC), and given the description of Blackmoor and Thonia from Blackmoor d20, I suggest that the best thing is to include them in a separated Neathar group, with no particular link to a Real World culture and language. The third group is that of the M-Indoeuropeans, that I called the Aharians. The Aharians are the Mystaran equivalent of Indoeuropeans, and like their real world counterpart they have a complicated history. I'll return to them in a later article, called "Notes on the Antalians and other M-Indoeuropeans". The fourth group is that of the M-Camites. The ancient Egyptians were Camites, and the Afridhi are quite similar to Nithians in the Blackmoor d20 description (red hair, dark skinned), so they fit perfectly in this group, where I have also put the Makai. Note that the Afridhi may have some Tanagoro blood in their veins, if you prefer to have them more similar to them (thus they could be M-Somals, as Somals are a camitic population that have heavy Niger-kordafanian genetic contribution, or some sort of M-Camitic population with no real world counterpart). Note also that the Nithians have in their veins some Oltec blood, but I included the Nithians in the Neathar group because of their language (M-Egyptian, thus a Camitic language). Last but not least, the Makai have developed an original language, different from that of all others. I'll return to the issue of Makai language in following articles. The fifth group is that of the M-Semites. The only canonical semitic population is that of the Alasiyans, but I have included a reference to the Taymora, because of Giampaolo Agosta's work, that presents the Taymora as M-Phoenicians. There is another interesting hypothesis on the Taymora, that presents them as M-Proto-Greek, but I'll return on that when discussing in detail the M-Indoeuropeans. --------------------------------------------------- Final Note: I have omitted all human alien cultures and populations, like Flaemish, Alphatian, Ochalean, Emerondian, Klantyrian, Averoignian. ___________________________________ Nuovo Yahoo! Messenger: E' molto più divertente: Audibles, Avatar, Webcam, Giochi, Rubrica… Scaricalo ora! http://it.messenger.yahoo.it ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:36:16 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: TRALDARS --- DM wrote: > Finally, I totally subscribe to Iulius's theory on > the > Traldars-Traladarans matter. > We cannot simply say "they evolve from Greek to > Slavic > in 1500 years" (from BC1000 to BC 500 according to > the > official timeline) because that's not reasonable in > real world. otherwise we could say "they evolve from > Egyptian to Greek" with no need of another link, but > this is likewise absurd. > If you want to make it a realistic and believable > change, you have to find the missing link between > Egyptian Traldars and Greek Traldars (IMO the > taymora > survivors) and between the Greek Traldars and the > Traladarans (IMO the Slavic Antalians named "vatli" > by > Iulius or "darans" by me, but they're just the > same). Okay, I'm jumping into this one: First of all, "Slavic" is a pretty problematic term in the real world too. It encompasses a wide range of cultures with many different traits. Noone knows the exact origins of the slavs and they were undoubtedly influenced by many of their neibouring cultures, be that scandinavians, west european cultures, south europeans and asians. The Hutaakans have a culture similar to egyptian, but not identical to it by far. The real world greeks were influenced by egyptian culture aswell as middle eastern culture. So, going from quasi-egyptian to quasi greek in is not a problem IMO. Also, 1000 years is a _long_ time. Europe is pretty different today than it was in 1004. Why a greek-like culture would develope into a Slavic-like culture over this period can be discussed, but I dont see why it couldn't happen. Ofcourse this will be a result of internal process combined with outside influences. There will always be outside influcences, be they Antalians, Giants, Elves or others. I dont see why the Traldars couldnt simply have picked things here and there from their neighbouring cultures, mixed with elements from their old heritage and developed into what the Traladarans are like today. I'm not saying that should be the way that you should have it in your campaign, but dismissing the possibility of such a development as absurd, I just cant agree with. Oh, I should get back to work now ;) Håvard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 09:35:23 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: TRALDARS Okay, I clearly see it can't be the Hutakans. Now here is another posibility... The Gnollish invasion decimated the Traldars. They lost all their “Greek” knowledge and reverted to their very own unique culture of being “Slavic”. How simple is that? Now we don’t need to explain other cultures influencing them other than the Gnolls that influenced them by forcing them to recreate themselves from the pieces they were left with. This fits canon, in fact, I believe that is canon. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:53:59 +0200 From: la Volpe Subject: Ethnography Focus: Notes on Antalians and other M-Indoeuropeans ETHNOGRAPHY FOCUS: NOTES ON ANTALIANS AND OTHER M-INDOEUROPEANS The Aharians are the Mystaran equivalent of Indoeuropeans, and like their real world counterpart they have a complicated history. The Aharians are divided in five subgroups, each of whom is the equivalent of one major Indoeuropean group. These are: 1) Valharians The Valharians are the equivalent of the Balts. They are among the first to have had contact with the M-Finns; thus their descendants (Lietuvans and Litoniesu, the two populations of Littonia, created by Geoff Gander) are the population with most blonde hair and blue eyes on Mystara, along the Antalians. 2) Daharians Daharians are the equivalent of the so-called "European group", which includes all Slavic, Italic/Latin and German populations. I have created the Daharians as a means to explain the existance of Skandaharians without touching the issue of wheter they were or not the ancestors of Antalians - this, especially since there are almost 1600 years (and a Nuclear Catastrophe) between the presence of Skandaharians on Skothar and the rise of the Antalian culture on Brun. The Skandaharians and the Antalians would be two separated branches of the original Daharians. Along with the Valharians, the Daharians are the Neathar that most mixed with the M-Finns, bringing the blonde hair and blue eyes feature in the Neathar genes - especially the Antalians are the testimony of this occurence. The "Antalians" rose on Brun around 2400 BC. When they are brought to the Hollow World (around 1700 BC), they had already divided in three subcultures: the Antalians proper, those that are saved by the Immortals, and that are the equivalent of Proto-Germans, and then two offshoots, the Thantalians (southern Antalians, equivalent to Proto-Latin/Italics) and Vantalians (western Antalians, equivalent to Proto-Slavic). Around 1700 we probably have Antalians in the area from the Great Bay down to Heldann; the Vantalians in western Norwold, around the lakes area and in the northern part of Denagoth; the Thantalians in the Northern Reaches. When the humanoid hordes descend, most of the Vantalians push their way westwards into the Midlands, becoming the ancestors of the Yevo and other M-Slavic populations of the Western Brun and Midlands area populations created by Christian Constantin and Adrian Mattias. One group of the Vantalians, called Vatli, moves southwards into Ethengar. During the next millennium, they live as nomads (M-Gypsies), reaching ultimately the Five Shires and then Karameikos, where they mix with the Traldar bringing the Slavic element that change them into Traladarans. They could be also used to create a M-Gypsy culture (the Darine of James Mishler could be an offshoot that during their migration passed through Sind - there is room for whatever you want to do with them, as there is a blank of almost 800 years of their history!). The Antalians are probably cut in two. The northern Antalians become the Norwold barbarians; the second group moves to Wendar (the human population of Wendar is mostly of Antalian origin and they are said to be relatives of the Northmen and Heldanners) Heldann, Vestland (among them a tribe known as the Hattians) and Ostland. The Thantalians, pressed by their northern relatives, live in Soderfjord and on the northern mountains and regions of Ylaruam. Among them are the original Thyatian and Kerendan tribe. When the Nithians conquer the Northern Reaches, they deport most of the population. The Thantalian are almost all destroyed and absorbed, with the exception of Thyatians and Kerendans, brought to the southern continent. The Antalians are greatly reduced in number; most flee to Heldann or Ostland, to live free of the Nithians. In Vestland and Soderfjord, the population will always be sparse and barbaric, until the colonization brought by the Cnutes of Ostland in the second half of the first millennium AC. A last note: part of the Antalians of 1700 BC would probably have left westwards, crossing Denagoth and the Norwold mountains, and reached areas of central Brun where they became the barbarian tribes that were the ancestors of current Eusdrians. 3) Dunharians Dunharians are the equivalent of the Earth's Celts. They probably lived in the areas that go from Ethengar to Soderfjord around 2500 BC. When the Ethengarians (around 2000 BC), Humanoids and Antalians arrived in the region around 1700 BC, they fled west and east, dividing into two major groups. The Eastern Dunharians (that I call Dunael, according to the name given to them by James Mishler) fled to the Isle of Dawn, where they originated the local Dunael of Dawn (those that live nowadays in the areas of Caerdwicca, Furmenglaive, and whose names are like those of Earth's Scotland, like McRhoomag and so on). Somehow, part of these Dunael arrived on Davania. Here they probably mixed with some other Neathar population (not belonging to any of the groups indicated by the previous articles) and became the Thratians. This would mirror what happened in Great Britain when the invading Celts mixed with Pre-Indoeuropean populations, similar ethnically and linguistically to the Picts that still lived in Scotland in Roman times. This would preserve the celtic feeling of the Thratians, but at the same time justify two Canon facts (reported in the "Hollow World" and "Wrath of the Immortals" sets): Diulanna was part of a tribe of Neathar of Davania, and Neathar lived in Davania around 3000 BC. The western Dunharians, whom I call Carnuilh, according to the name and the ideas proposed by Chris Cherrington on the MML, became the ancestors of barbarian tribes of northern Brun and Midlands. One of these tribes later arrived in the Savage Coast and became the Robrennians. Marco Dalmonte also suggested that some Carnuilh could have stopped in the southern regions of Wendar during their journey westwards. 4) Dulharians The Dulharians would be the M-Greek element of the Known World. Unfortunately, there is much debate and speculation on the origin of this M-Greek element. There are three possible, major hypothesises, I'll present both and credit the authors, and then I'll tell you which version I will use for my Ethnographic Project. a) The Dulharians evolve into the Taymora. The Taymora city-states are modelled on ancient Greek. When Taymora sinks, part of the Taymora refugees reach Karameikos (source: "PC2 Sea People"). When the Traldar, a Nithian clan, reach the lands of nowadays Karameikos, they lose rapidly all their culture, and mix and adopt the Taymoran language, becoming in fact M-Greek of the Heroic Age after the recovery of knowledges brought by the Hutaakans. [Marco Dalmonte, Verro Diabolico, from Italian Mystaran Board] b) Suspension of disbelief: Traldars, which are inherently Nithians and thus M-Egyptians, become M-Greek, changing language and customs without need of a complicated explanation. c) The Taymora are M-Phoenicians, and not M-Greek. However, the Dulharians (M-Greek) live in western Nithia at the time of the rise of the Nithians. The Nithians rise in the Delta area, and then expand westwards, conquering and assimilating gradually the Dulharian population, and in part sending expeditions. One of these expeditions involve the Traldar, sent to Karameikos. The expedition is led by a Nithian prince and his family, but most of the population is made up of slaves of Dulharian ethnicity. When they succumb to the climatic harshness in Traladara, the Nithian element is lost, and the population is both ethnically and linguistically Greek for about 90%. The few Taymora remnants of Karameikos are absorbed, but they do not provide major contributions (except maybe for the alphabet). [Agosta/Caroletti] Personally I go with option c. In any case, the change from Traldar to Traladarans has been explained in the section that deals with Antalians, above. The Milenians (direct descendants of the Traldar) and Minaeans (direct descendants of the Milenians), instead, continue to speak a Greek language even to present day. 5) Dravharians The Dravharians are the ancestors of the Dravi, from which the Urduk descend, and thus they bring the Indoiranic elements to Mystara. The Sindhi are descendants of a mixed Oltecs and Neathar population further mixed with the Urduk; clearly, being Indian, they speak a Dravharian language, and thus they have been included in this section. Non canonic populations like the Darsi (M-Persian) and Midannites (M-Mitanni) of the Yezchamenid Empire (created by Christian Constantin) are also Dravharian descended. AHARIAN ETHNOGRAPHIC TABLE A1. Valharians --> A1.1 Valemen ---------------------->A1.1.a Lietuvans ---------------------->A1.1.b Litoniesu A2. Daharians --------------->A2.1 Skandaharians --------------->A2.2 Antalians ----------------------------->A2.2.a Antalians ----------------------------->A2.2.b Thantalians ----------------------------->A2.2.c Vantalians A2.2.a Antalians ---> Hattians ---> Northmen ---> (central Brun barbarians) ---> Eusdrians ---> Norwolders (barbarians) ---> Durran ---> (+Dunharians) Durrankin ---> (+Atheniese)Darokinians A2.2.b Thantalians ---> Thyatians ---> Kerendans A2.2.c Vantalians ---> Yevo ---> Zuyevans ---> Vatli --> (+ Traldar) Traladarans A3. Dunharians --->A3.1 Proto-Dunael ---------------> Dunael ---------------> (+Neathar) Thratians --->A3.2 Carnuilh ---------------> (western barbarians) --> Robrennians A4. Dulharians ---> (+Nithians,Taymora) Traldar ----------------------------------> (+Vatli)--> [Traladarans] ----------------------------------> Milenians,Minaeans ----------------------------------> Cynidiceans, Atheniese, Salonikans A5. Dravharians ---> Dravi ---------------> Urduk ---------------> (+ Urduk & Oltecs) Sindhi ---------------> Darsi ---------------> Midannites FURTHER NOTES ON DAROKIN If you have taken a close look at the table above, you have surely noticed the presence of some populations that I have not mentioned in my article. This is because they could be very confusing, and I prefer to write about them here, separately. The history of Darokin has some internal contraddictions. We know by GAZ10 that in 1254 BC the city of Akorros is destroyed by humanoid migrations, however in GAZ11 it is said that in year 800 BC there are no permanent settlements in Darokin, how is this possible? Moreover, the Darokinians are a mix of many populations and their names, toponomy and language doesn't point us in any familiar direction. We have Celtic sounding names, English sounding names, Nordic sounding names, Latin sounding names, and Greek and Slavic. How can we solve this issue? Here is a proposal. The dates are just indications, what I want to point out is the ethnical background, not the exact historical dates. 1) The first humans to enter Darokin are Traldar arriving from Karameikos. They build Athenos around 1350 BC. Then they expand northwards, colonizing the western part of Darokin, up to Akorros, their northern settlement, built to trade with the Sindhi. 2) Akorros is destroyed around 1254 by the arrival of Red Orcs from Wogar's migration. The Red Orcs wage war agains the Atheniese, pushing them south and confining their realm into the Malpheggi. 3) The nomadic Vatli arrive in Darokin. 4) The Atheniese are beaten and escape to the Five Shires (somewhere between 950 and 800). It could be cool to have a sort of King in Exile somewhere in southern Five Shires; with all the chaos and various kings and warlords in the region it would not be a problem, I think. 5) After 800 BC, the Atheniese manage to reclaim the Malpheggi. They rebuild Athenos. 6) In these years, another two populations arrive in Darokin. I don't have exact dates. These would be: a Dunharian tribe that had lived in southern Ethengar, trying to avoid total destruction by the hand of hostile Yellow Orcs and Ethengarians, and that ultimately leaves its homeland; and an Antalian tribe, called the Durran (M-Anglosaxons) (their name means more or less "the brave" in ancient proto-Anglosaxon). When the Elves arrive, these tribes settle west of the Canolbarth area, and are helped by the Elves against the Orcs. The two groups mingle and become the Durrankin, among their cities are Favaro, Darokin. The Vatli pass through the Five Shires and reach Karameikos. 7) The Doulakki, eastern Traldar of Thyatis, fleeing the Thyatian invaders, build Cynidicea and Salonikos. 8) Alliance between the Durrankin and the Atheniese. Akorros area reconquered by the Alliance. Akorros rebuilt with its original name. Town of Adelphia ("brotherhood") founded by the Alliance as a sign of peace. 9) Reign of the Attleson. Birth of Darokin. 10) In the following centuries, in the Salonikos area we have Alasiyan and Thyatian and Traldar influence. Thus we would have in Western Darokin a Darokinian language, a sort of anglosaxon meets celtic with greek influences instead of latin ones, a sort of para-English, but with far more celtic influence, and without the latin one. In the Selenica area (remember from GAZ11 that the Selenicans consider themselves historically and ethnically not like other Darokinians) we have a cosmopolitan population whose language is probably a M-Sabir (Sabir was the Lingua Franca of the Mediterranean Sea, a mix of latin, arab and various other languages). The fact that Darokin has a Thyatian official language, as in the "Mystaran Almanac", could come from the needs of the Darokin Diplomatic Corps. I'd say that the Darokinian and the Thyatian are both official tongues, while the Selenican is not. This is done on purpose, to encourage the diffusion of the Thyatian, a neutral tongue, as it is the Common Tongue of the Known World, instead of using the Selenican as a trade tongue, something that could be dangerous and increase the power and centriphugal tendencies of Selenica. ___________________________________ Nuovo Yahoo! Messenger: E' molto più divertente: Audibles, Avatar, Webcam, Giochi, Rubrica… Scaricalo ora! http://it.messenger.yahoo.it ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:25:25 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Basical Ethnic and Linguistic Guidelines for Mystara la Volpe wrote: > 2. Oltecs (1) > ---> [2.2 Yali] > ---> [2.3 M-Sino-Tibetan/Proto-Chinese] > ---------> [2.3.1 Proto-Ochalese] > > The third group has been indicated as > "M-Sino-tibetan-proto-chinese". There are no human > canonical cultures belonging to this group (the > Ochaleans are alien), but if someone wants to create > such a culture (or detail a Proto-Ochalese culture > that mixed with the Alphatian invaders), this would be > its position in the chart. Maybe I would like Ethengarians as a mix between 2.2 and 2.3 and I would add 2.4 for austronesian cultures of Skothar and the alphatian sea, but I think yours it's a great and useful work, anyway. > -------> 3.4.3 Makai > Last but not least, the Makai have developed an > original language, different from that of all others. > I'll return to the issue of Makai language in > following articles. I didn't ever understand why the Makai were considered in canon a neathar population when they clearly have an hawaian culture and bronze skin. I think they should be a mix of oltecs people near to the atruaghin and austronesian peoples from the alphatian sea region, even if this clearly contradict the HW boxed set. bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:28:23 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Basical Ethnic and Linguistic Guidelines for Mystara, Tanagoro la Volpe wrote: > 1. Tanagoro (1) > ---> 1.1 Tanagoro (2) > --------->1.1.1 Tangor > --------->1.1.2 Nuari > ---------> (+ Sheyallia Elves) ---> 1.1.3 Yavi > ---> [1.2 M-Khoisanid/Bushmen] We have a lot of Tanagoro cultures in Mystara, and no one was much developed, I think. I don't have HW with me now but I think HW Tangor were something like to RW Congo Bantu, so we should develop different cultures for the other tanagoro peoples of Mystara. The Tanagoro of Skothar could be something like Zimbabwe and Zulu kingdoms, maybe with some ancients M-Bushmen and Khoisanid populations (But reading Giulio's work maybe he was inspired more by the western africa nations?). The Tanagoro of Vulcanian region in Davania could be ethiopic and somalian-like kingdoms, because they could have mixed with neathar barbarians living in the region (mentioned by Geoff Gander in his Lhomarrian history). The Tanagoro of uncanon Arica by Steven Wilson could be nilotic pastoral populations like Sudan peoples and Kenyans masai. About Nuari and Yavi they seem to have a melanesian culture or maybe something similar to RW Andamane islands natives. I would prefer them as a mix of Tanagoro and an austronesian culture of the alphatian sea, or maybe as a mix of Oltecs and Tanagoro. What do you think? bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:32:25 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Basical Ethnic and Linguistic Guidelines for Mystara, Yavdlom la Volpe wrote: > ---------> (+ Sheyallia Elves) ---> 1.1.3 Yavi Thinking better, maybe the RW inspiration for Yavdlom was Madagascar, that it's a mix of african and indian culture. bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:54:58 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Basical Ethnic and Linguistic Guidelines for Mystara, Yavdlom Francesco Defferrari wrote: > >> ---------> (+ Sheyallia Elves) ---> 1.1.3 Yavi > > Thinking better, maybe the RW inspiration for Yavdlom was Madagascar, that > it's a mix of african and indian culture. Maybe, but the language of the Yavi is likely to be simply based on Swahili. OTOH, Cestia (Lady Abovombe's homeland, specifically) is based on Madagascar. Ah, and the Karimari cover the african pygmy group. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:45:45 -0700 From: Brendan Corliss Subject: Re: TRALDARS --- DM wrote: > Finally, I totally subscribe to Iulius's theory on > the > Traldars-Traladarans matter. > We cannot simply say "they evolve from Greek to > Slavic > in 1500 years" (from BC1000 to BC 500 according to > the > official timeline) because that's not reasonable in > real world. otherwise we could say "they evolve from > Egyptian to Greek" with no need of another link, but > this is likewise absurd. Honestly, I disagree that the Traldar were necessarily Greek. In the HW box set, they are presented as more or less a generic Bronze age civilization. The only clue to link their culture to a RW one would be the names. Now I'm no linguist, but I don't get the impression those are particularly Greek - or Slavic, for that matter. In fact, if anything, I kinda get the impression that the Traldar were more along the lines of the Macedonians. This might also make it seem a bit more reasonable (relating to the RW) that the Traldar were the base culture for both a quasi-Slavic/Balkan culture and a quasi-Greek one. Anyway, just my two passim worth... -Damon AKA Brendan Corliss Corliss Enterprises, Ltd. Darokin City __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 21:11:53 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: TRALDARS Brendan Corliss ha scritto: > > Now I'm no linguist, but I don't get the > impression those are particularly Greek - or Slavic, > for that matter. In fact, if anything, I kinda get the > impression that the Traldar were more along the lines > of the Macedonians. Let's put it this way: if the Milenians are direct descendants of the Traldar, and they are basically M-Greeks (with some traces of Rome, ok), then their ancestors are likely to be M-Greeks (or M-Acheans, if you like). That said, the names of the Traldar cities are basically Greek -- which per se does not mean they cannot be Macedonian rather than Greek. But ancient Macedonia has nothing to do with the Slavic people. Modern Macedonians are Slavic, but they basically replaced/absorbed the original (more or less Greek) people. GP ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:32:59 -0700 From: Brendan Corliss Subject: Re: TRALDARS --- Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > Let's put it this way: if the Milenians are direct > descendants of the > Traldar, and they are basically M-Greeks (with some > traces of Rome, ok), > then their ancestors are likely to be M-Greeks (or > M-Acheans, if you like). I must respectfully disagree. That same arguement could be made for the Traladarans: if the Traladarans are direct descendants of the Traldar, and they are basically M-Slavs (or Balkans), then their ancestors are likely to be M-Slavs. Further supporting this view, the Traldar who founded Milenian culture were a minority - the majority of the Traldar stayed and eventually became the Traladarans. Does this automatically mean that the overiding culture of the Traldar was Slavic? Not necessarily; which was my original point. To say that the Traldar were *only* M-Greek (or M-Achean) *or* M-Slav makes the cultural evolution of either the Milenians or Traladarans illogical. This is why I suggest that the Traldar had more in common with Ancient Macedonia (neither Greek not Slav but related to both), which brings us to... > But ancient Macedonia has nothing to do with the > Slavic people. Again, I disagree. It is believed that the Ancient Macedonians were related to the Veneti which are also believed to be ancestors of the Slavic people. > Modern Macedonians are Slavic, but they basically > replaced/absorbed the > original (more or less Greek) people. I was not referring to modern Macedonia. Ancient Macedonians were *not* Greek. Although they did, in fact, have cultural and ethnic similarities to the Greeks, they were a distinct civilization (and ethnicity for that matter) that had common ties to many cultures of the region. Now, I know that the Macedonian/Greek thing can be a bit of a touchy subject from a Balkan standpoint, so I'm not trying to start a political discussion(read: flame-war). I'm just trying to point out that associating the Traldar with a culture that is neither Greek nor Slavic, but has ties to both, alleviates the issue of why a M-Greek and a M-Slav culture were spawned by the same civilization. Once again, however, this brings up the point I was making a few days ago. When we force Mystara to conform to RW history we get into issues such as this... -Damon AKA Brendan Corliss Corliss Enterprises, Ltd. Darokin City ===== May all your endeavors be Gold! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:10:57 -0700 From: Dave Keyser Subject: Re: TRALDARS On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 03:16:05 -0700, DM wrote: > Finally, I totally subscribe to Iulius's theory on the > Traldars-Traladarans matter. > We cannot simply say "they evolve from Greek to Slavic > in 1500 years" (from BC1000 to BC 500 according to the > official timeline) because that's not reasonable in > real world. > DM > There are a lot of things in Mystara that are not reasonable in the real world. I personally don't mind reasonable explanations for these unreasonable things, as long as it doesn't make things too complicated or cause major rewrites in what we already have. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 23:54:29 -0400 From: Donald Eric Kesler Subject: Real Halfings! http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/10/1027_041027_homo_floresiensis.html#main _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! hthttp://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 26 Oct 2004 to 27 Oct 2004 (#2004-232) ****************************************************************