Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 27 Oct 2004 to 28 Oct 2004 (#2004-233) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 29/10/2004, 18:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 8 messages totalling 403 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Basical Ethnic and Linguistic Guidelines for Mystara, Yavdlom 2. Basical Ethnic and Linguistic Guidelines for Mystara, Yavdlom 3. Real Halfings! 4. TRALDARS (2) 5. Blackmoor d20 (2) 6. [Spam] [MYSTARA] Blackmoor d20 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/default.aspx To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 10:36:26 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Basical Ethnic and Linguistic Guidelines for Mystara, Yavdlom Giampaolo Agosta wrote: >> Thinking better, maybe the RW inspiration for Yavdlom was >> Madagascar, that it's a mix of african and indian culture. > Maybe, but the language of the Yavi is likely to be simply based on > Swahili. OTOH, Cestia (Lady Abovombe's homeland, specifically) is > based on Madagascar. > > Ah, and the Karimari cover the african pygmy group. You're right, Madagascar is Cestia, but still Yavdlom seem to me a mix between african and indian cultures. Maybe was inspired by Zanzibar, where Swahili was born... bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:36:52 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Basical Ethnic and Linguistic Guidelines for Mystara, Yavdlom Francesco Defferrari wrote: > > You're right, Madagascar is Cestia, but still Yavdlom seem to me a mix > between african and indian cultures. Maybe was inspired by Zanzibar, where > Swahili was born... That is certainly possible. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 10:12:05 -0300 From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Subject: Re: Real Halfings! Amazing!!! Even more amazing is that it was only 18.000 years ago! If they keep on digging, they might find other races. Hope they do not dig "too deep and too greedly", lest they might find Balrogs! :-P vini At 00:54 28/10/2004, you wrote: > http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/10/1027_041027_homo_floresiensis.html#main ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 21:17:08 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: TRALDARS Brendan Corliss ha scritto: > >> But ancient Macedonia has nothing to do with the >> Slavic people. > > Again, I disagree. It is believed that the Ancient > Macedonians were related to the Veneti which are also > believed to be ancestors of the Slavic people. AFAIK, this is identification is rather weak -- it is based on the Veneti, but the word "Veneti" identifies at least the following groups: - Slavic people of the Carpathians and Poland - Illiric tribes - A celtic tribe from modern Viennes - The Veneti of Venice As you can imagine, saying that the Macedonians were related to the Veneti is pretty generic ;) Consider that the only Veneti known to the Greeks were the Illiric tribes, then at most Macedonians may be related to Illiric tribes, not to the Slavic groups. What is actually known of Macedonian language, AFAIK, is very little. It originally was not Greek, but at the time of Alexander the Great and his father, they were quite ``Grecized'' -- Alexander himself could claim Greek ancestry. Also, according to Herodotus, the Macedonians were Doric -- it may not be the surest source, of course. Well, that's all for now, GP ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:20:46 -0700 From: Brendan Corliss Subject: Re: TRALDARS Let me preface this by saying that I in no way endorse any opinion relating to the current Greek/Macedonian conflict over modern Macedonians ties to Alexander and ancient Macedonia. My statements refer only to the ancient world... --- Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > As you can imagine, saying that the Macedonians were > related to the > Veneti is pretty generic ;) > Consider that the only Veneti known to the Greeks > were the Illiric > tribes, then at most Macedonians may be related to > Illiric tribes, not > to the Slavic groups. > What is actually known of Macedonian language, > AFAIK, is very little. > It originally was not Greek, but at the time of > Alexander the Great and > his father, they were quite ``Grecized'' -- > Alexander himself could > claim Greek ancestry. Fair enough. But even if the Veneti connection is somewhat vague, the Macedonians did have their own language and unique (if somewhat similar) culture prior to the Hellenization that occurred roughly around the time of Alexander (and Phillip). As far as Alexander's Greek heritage, I think this proves my point about the Macedonians being seperate but similar. His heritage had to be proven before he was allowed to compete in the Olympics, as he was considered a Macedonian - therefore not Greek (and only Greeks were allowed to compete). But this is brings up an interesting point - what exactly does being Greek mean? 1-Speaking Greek? 2-Having Greek names? 3-Being ethnically Greek? To illustrate this point, I'll use American culture as a reference: 1-The vast majority of Americans speak English as their native language, even though the number of Americans with actual English lineage is far from the majority. 2-American names generally follow this trend, as most Americans of various ethnic background tend to have anglicized-versions of foreign names; my own middle name, Alexander (ironic in context of the current discussion), is a clear example of this. 3-In the case of ethnicity, I'll again use myself as an example. My heritage is mostly Irish with Scottish, Norwegian, German, and Native American thrown in. All of these ethnicities have a distinct culture and language seperate from English. But my language and primary cultural influence are both English in origin. Back to the Greek issue, Classical Greece, without a doubt, had a huge impact on the Balkan region (and beyond) - they were, afterall, the foundation for Western Civilization. But I think that just because they had an influence doesn't mean that they were the same people. But then, I think one thing we tend to do in the modern era is generalize history. Which, from an academic standpoint, is bad; however, from a gaming standpoint can actually be good. At the risk of sounding like a parrot (and somewhat of a hypocrit, in light of this rambling message), I think over-analysis can detract from from the gaming experience. Anyway, getting back on topic a bit, I guess my point is that Ancient Macedonia (prior to the Hellenization of Alexander's day) seems like a reasonable inspiration for the Ancient Traldar as opposed to the more southern Greek cultures - but then hey, as we've all said before: everyone's free to do what they want in their own campaign. One other thing to consider, is that when the Traldar/Traladarans were first created in B10:Night's Dark Terror, I don't think that they were supposed to be particularly related to any one RW culture. Then GAZ1 came out and the modern Traladarans became associated with a somewhat Slavic/Balkan culture (as was hinted at a bit in B10). Then when the HW box set came, the Milenians were invented (or at least fleshed out) and the ancient Traldar were named as their ancestors, so the names of the cities tended to conform to Greek convention, while this cultural connection had never really been made in prior products. Now I don't think this makes one or the other right or wrong - I think it just illustrates Francesco's point that sometimes things were added in later products that changed what things had been in prior products. Hmm, not sure where I was going with that, but I guess it's just a point to ponder... kinda zen-like, huh? > Also, according to Herodotus, the Macedonians were > Doric -- it may not > be the surest source, of course. Probably a relatively reasonable source - if taken in context. Generally speaking, ancient Greeks (as well as just about any culture) tended to approach history from their own ethno-centric perspective. Even the more "academic" historical texts of the ancient world tend to make references to divine-origin of rulers and other scientifically incredulous ideas in addition to chronicles that would otherwise seem to be historically objective. But then I'm drifting off topic somewhat, so I'm done babbling. :o) -Damon AKA Brendan Corliss Corliss Enterprises, Ltd. Darokin City ===== May all your endeavors be Gold! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 03:16:29 +0200 From: la Volpe Subject: Blackmoor d20 I received my copy of Blackmoor d20 and noticed that in the "Special Thanks" session (page 3, if I'm not wrong), we (the MML) have got a mention for (drums rolling please): Haavard Faanes Jacob Skytte Geoff Gander This is cool, although I'd liked a mention to our heroic Master Archivist Shawn Stanley, and maybe a collective mention for the list too!!! 8-) ...and the book is interesting too. Although trying to fit Blackmoor d20 with Mystara could be a difficult task, well...at least I appreciated the references to Mystaran Immortals (Hel, Odin, Faunus, Ordana, and so on), and I'll give it a try! Nice to see some old familiar name back in print. Thanatos on an RPG hardcover product! It's like going back ten years in time... Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ___________________________________ Nuovo Yahoo! Messenger: E' molto più divertente: Audibles, Avatar, Webcam, Giochi, Rubrica… Scaricalo ora! http://it.messenger.yahoo.it ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 23:12:31 -0400 From: Donald Eric Kesler Subject: Re: Blackmoor d20 Hello, Did you notice the change that was made to Marfeldt? Personally, I'm going to miss the last anarchist. There is also a brief allusion to the Beagle under the section on Monks of Blackmoor. This clearly requires further explaination and exploration. Regards and Best Wishes, Donald Eric Kesler http://www.geocities.com/heroclixleagueofathens/ > > I received my copy of Blackmoor d20 and noticed that > in the "Special Thanks" session (page 3, if I'm not > wrong), we (the MML) have got a mention for (drums > rolling please): > > Haavard Faanes > Jacob Skytte > Geoff Gander > > This is cool, although I'd liked a mention to our > heroic Master Archivist Shawn Stanley, and maybe a > collective mention for the list too!!! 8-) > > ...and the book is interesting too. Although trying to > fit Blackmoor d20 with Mystara could be a difficult > task, well...at least I appreciated the references to > Mystaran Immortals (Hel, Odin, Faunus, Ordana, and so > on), and I'll give it a try! > Nice to see some old familiar name back in print. > Thanatos on an RPG hardcover product! It's like going > back ten years in time... > > Iulius Sergius Scaevola > Captain of the XXth Cohort > Port Lucinius, Thyatis > > > > ___________________________________ > Nuovo Yahoo! Messenger: E' molto più divertente: Audibles, Avatar, Webcam, > Giochi, Rubrica… Scaricalo ora! > http://it.messenger.yahoo.it > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/default.aspx > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 03:40:27 -0300 From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Subject: Re: [Spam] [MYSTARA] Blackmoor d20 Cool! The guys surely deserved. How can I get it, oh, brave Captain Iulius? TIA, vini At 22:16 28/10/2004, you wrote: > I received my copy of Blackmoor d20 and noticed that > in the "Special Thanks" session (page 3, if I'm not > wrong), we (the MML) have got a mention for (drums > rolling please): > > Haavard Faanes > Jacob Skytte > Geoff Gander > > This is cool, although I'd liked a mention to our > heroic Master Archivist Shawn Stanley, and maybe a > collective mention for the list too!!! 8-) > > ...and the book is interesting too. Although trying to > fit Blackmoor d20 with Mystara could be a difficult > task, well...at least I appreciated the references to > Mystaran Immortals (Hel, Odin, Faunus, Ordana, and so > on), and I'll give it a try! > Nice to see some old familiar name back in print. > Thanatos on an RPG hardcover product! It's like going > back ten years in time... > > Iulius Sergius Scaevola > Captain of the XXth Cohort > Port Lucinius, Thyatis ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 27 Oct 2004 to 28 Oct 2004 (#2004-233) ****************************************************************