Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 28 Oct 2004 to 29 Oct 2004 (#2004-234) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 30/10/2004, 18:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 30 messages totalling 2045 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. TRALDARS (8) 2. Blackmoor d20 (17) 3. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Traladaran_History_and_Heritage-One_Sage's_Viewpoint=2C_Pa? = =?iso-8859-1?Q?rt_1?= 4. Rakastas, Ochalea & Myoshima (...and Makai!) (2) 5. Traladaran History, Part 2: Populations of the Dread Sea Coast cs. 2000 to 1500 BC 6. Traladaran History, Part 3: A Symposium in Thyatis, Part 1 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/default.aspx To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:41:36 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: TRALDARS Brendan Corliss wrote: > > Anyway, getting back on topic a bit, I guess my point > is that Ancient Macedonia (prior to the Hellenization > of Alexander's day) seems like a reasonable > inspiration for the Ancient Traldar as opposed to the > more southern Greek cultures That's certainly possible. > One other thing to consider, is that when the > Traldar/Traladarans were first created in B10:Night's > Dark Terror, I don't think that they were supposed to > be particularly related to any one RW culture. I agree that the Traldar were non-specific in B10, but the Traladaran were already Slavic -- see the names of the Traladaran people in Sukiskyn. > I think it just illustrates > Francesco's point that sometimes things were added in > later products that changed what things had been in > prior products. Of course, there are various layers of stratification of versions and products -- just think at the "modern" history of KW in the X, CM and M adventures wrt the same time interval as presented in WotI. > Hmm, not sure where I was going with that, but I guess > it's just a point to ponder... kinda zen-like, huh? [..] > But then I'm drifting off topic somewhat, so I'm done > babbling. :o) :D Bye, -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:04:37 +0200 From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Blackmoor d20 ----- Original Message ----- From: "la Volpe" > This is cool, although I'd liked a mention to our > heroic Master Archivist Shawn Stanley, and maybe a > collective mention for the list too!!! 8-) I think it's because those three people helped out with something. Well, Haavard definitely deserved mention anyway. ; ) > ...and the book is interesting too. Although trying to > fit Blackmoor d20 with Mystara could be a difficult > task I'm still reading and not only thinking hard on that, but considering how to convert everything I like to OD&D as well... Some of the hard stuff to convert, the Prestige Classes, I simply don't care much for, so that's a load off my shoulders. ; ) I'm thinking the special roles these classes fill can be just as easily covered by regular character classes. > Nice to see some old familiar name back in print. > Thanatos on an RPG hardcover product! It's like going > back ten years in time... Ten years would be about the time I last bought a D&D product that wasn't second hand, so that seems to fit well. ; ) Jacob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:21:57 +0200 From: la Volpe Subject: Re: Blackmoor d20 --- Jacob Skytte ha scritto: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "la Volpe" > > > > This is cool, although I'd liked a mention to our > > heroic Master Archivist Shawn Stanley, and maybe a > > collective mention for the list too!!! 8-) > > I think it's because those three people helped out > with something. Well, > Haavard definitely deserved mention anyway. ; ) Yes, I supposed that. 8-) Just thought it would have been nice to have a mention for the Vaults and the Mailing List...8-) Just out of curiosity, apart from the obvious creation of the Blackmoor web page on Haavard's part, what did you contribute to this product? I'm interested to hear if you made some contributions in particular beyond what I read here on the MML. Congratulations to all three of you! 8-) Giulio PS: Vini, you can order a copy at the Goodman Games webpage: www.goodman-games.com ___________________________________ Nuovo Yahoo! Messenger: E' molto più divertente: Audibles, Avatar, Webcam, Giochi, Rubrica… Scaricalo ora! http://it.messenger.yahoo.it ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:56:19 +0200 From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Blackmoor d20 ----- Original Message ----- From: "la Volpe" > Just out of curiosity, apart from the obvious creation > of the Blackmoor web page on Haavard's part, what did > you contribute to this product? Nothing in the book, AFAIK. I helped out with a list of Blackmoor mentions in Mystara products. And offered some comments on a preview once, though I doubt I got mention over that. ; ) Jacob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:15:33 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: Blackmoor d20 --- Jacob Skytte skrev: > > ...and the book is interesting too. Although > trying to > > fit Blackmoor d20 with Mystara could be a > difficult > > task > > I'm still reading and not only thinking hard on > that, but considering how to > convert everything I like to OD&D as well... Some of > the hard stuff to > convert, the Prestige Classes, I simply don't care > much for, so that's a > load off my shoulders. ; ) I'm thinking the special > roles these classes fill > can be just as easily covered by regular character > classes. I was wondering when that topic was going to show up on the list! :) Converting DAB to Mystara shouldn't be that hard IMO. Although there aren't any specific mentions of Mystara or Mystara related elements, there aren't many things in the book that actually contradict Mystara canon either. DAB offers a wide range of things for us to explore in connection to Mystara. What happened to the "Gods" of Blackmoor that aren't around in AC1000 (Or perhaps they are)? What happened to the Docrae and the other races/cultures of Blackmoor? Were they all destroyed or have some of them survived in some form or other? Why is magic in Blackmoor different? Is that related to the creation of the Radiance? Also, should the classes, monsters, spells etc be available in AC1000+? On the topic of making conversions to OD&D, there has already been some discussions about it on the ZGG forum. If you want a rules light approach it really shouldn't be that hard. I agree that most of the rules stuff can be ignored. The Sorcerer/Wizard schisma can still exist even if both types use the magic-user class in OD&D, or you could simply rule that Sorcerers use Charisma as their Prime Requisite, but are otherwise identical to Wizards.. Many of the monsters are alreay present in OD&D but the rest need to be converted ofcourse. PrCs could be dropped or made into class options like OD&D's Paladin/Knight/Avenger/Rogue/Druid/Magi ect... > > Nice to see some old familiar name back in print. > > Thanatos on an RPG hardcover product! It's like > going > > back ten years in time... > > Ten years would be about the time I last bought a > D&D product that wasn't > second hand, so that seems to fit well. ; ) Indeed :) Håvard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:16:47 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: TRALDARS Brendan Corliss wrote: > Anyway, getting back on topic a bit, I guess my point > is that Ancient Macedonia (prior to the Hellenization > of Alexander's day) seems like a reasonable > inspiration for the Ancient Traldar as opposed to the > more southern Greek cultures - but then hey, as we've > all said before: everyone's free to do what they want > in their own campaign. About Macedonians probably Herodotus was right saying they were doric, but doric were not exactly greeks, they were an indoeuropean population that probably settled in greece, turkey and balkan region. So I would not dismiss entirely the hypothesis of cultural bonds between macedonians and slavic people. Anyway about Traladara its modern identity should be the result of various influences: an antalian, thyatian, darokian and so on. Remember that in Traladara we have various and very dissimilar slavic cultures, from rumenian in the south (clearly traladaran and thyatian, like Lutescu, Sulescu and Torenescu) to true slavic people in the midlands and in the north. Among the latter we could have M-croatian (slavic and illiric people) M-macedonians (slavic and doric greeks) and so on. Probably we should assign the different slavic nationalities to the various Traladaran nations of Mystara, from Traladara to Boldavia, Savage coast city states, Midlands and Zuyevo. I think we should have M-rumenians and M-bulgarians (Rugalov, Vorloi, Marilenev and so on) in southern Traladara, M-macedonians in Western traladara (Achelos) M-serbians (Dimrak) in north eastern traladara, M-boemian (Halag) in south western traladara, M-transilvanians and moldavians in Boldavia, M-croatians (Zagora, Nova Svoga, Zvornik) in the Savage Coast, M-hungarians in the midlands and M-russians in Zuyevo. Note that even if I would place M-hungarians in the midlands, Radlebb and Korizsegy are names very similar to those found in the area between RW Croatia and Hungary: this could be the area from which came the traladaran colonists who went to the far west. The traladaran colonists of Glantri could have came from northern traladara instead. And we have M-albanian, M-polish, M-slovakians, M-ukrainians, M-belarusians still to place. Maybe somewhere in the Midlands of Brun? bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:09:32 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: Blackmoor d20 --- Jacob Skytte skrev: > Nothing in the book, AFAIK. I helped out with a list > of Blackmoor mentions > in Mystara products. Do you still have that list? I would be very interested in seeing that. :) Håvard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:18:13 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: Blackmoor d20 --- la Volpe ha scritto: > Just thought it would have been nice to have a > mention > for the Vaults and the Mailing List...8-) That would have been nice. Perhaps we can convince Dustin to include a mention in some future Blackmoor release? :) > Congratulations to all three of you! 8-) Thanks! I think it is great to see a product like this on the market. Although not a Mystara sourcebook, I hoped from the start that it was something that would provide further motivation to this list. Not that we can't stay alive without official products, but oustide inspiration is always nice. Now, if we can convince ZGG to publish Mystara next.... :) Håvard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:34:38 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: Blackmoor d20 --- Donald Eric Kesler wrote: > > There is also a brief allusion to the Beagle under > the section on Monks of > Blackmoor. This clearly requires further > explaination and exploration. I didnt notice that one, I'll see if I can find it tonight. There are also a couple of other references that could be interpreted as to dealing with the Beagle, one in the Valley of the Ancients section, another under the Ash Goblin entry in the Monsters Chapter. ZGG has stated that the events detailed in DA1-4 will occur in some form or other in the years following DAB, though how they will occur exactly is to be revealed later. Some other discrepancies * Blackmoor has Gods This could easly be explained as Gods being the term Blackmoorians use for Immortals, just as the Antalians do. This is especially appropriate since some of the Gods are specifically described to have been mortal at one point. * Thanatos is described to have been mortal at one point. The background of Thanatos doesn't quite fit with WotI, but it does make Thanatos' story very interesting and also explain his hatred against Sollus (Sollus could easily be made into Ixion). This story could also simply be dismissed as a legend about Thanatos whereas WotI could hold the truth. * There are Orcs in Blackmoor AFAIK, according to the Mystara timeline, there would still only be Beastmen on Mystara at that time. Here I am tempted to change Mystara canon, allowing for Orcs to have existed simultaneously with Beastmen in this period. DAB also has Beastmen! * Elves and Docrae Where are these elves from? Why can the Cumasti elves interbreed with any other race and the Westryn only can breed with other elves, while Mystaran elves can interbreed with other races, though rarely produce True half-elves. This could be explained in a number of ways, so it doesn't really contradict Mystara canon. * New Gods There is a bunch of Gods listed in DAB. Some could be made into identies of existing immortals from WotI. Others could have faded between BC 4000 and AC 1000. Others could just be waiting to get back into the spotlight. Again, not really a contradiction to canon. * Magic works differently Magic works differently in Blackmoor. Spellbooks aren't required to cast spells, there is a new arcane class, and Sorcerers fill a unique role. These changes could be explained in a number of ways too. Some of it may be related to the creation of the Nucleus of the Spheres. Comments? Håvard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 03:45:42 -0700 From: DM Subject: Re: TRALDARS On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 09:35:23 -0400, Chris Cherrington wrote: << Okay, I clearly see it can't be the Hutakans. Now here is another posibility... The Gnollish invasion decimated the Traldars. They lost all their “Greek” knowledge and reverted to their very own unique culture of being “Slavic”. How simple is that? Now we don’t need to explain other cultures influencing them other than the Gnolls that influenced them by forcing them to recreate themselves from the pieces they were left with. This fits canon, in fact, I believe that is canon.>> No it doesn't, sorry Chris :p What you are forgetting here is what the Traldars' REAL ancestry is: read every timeline concerning the Traldars' coming to Karameikos and you'll see this line "the Nithian Traldar clan". It means the Traldars WERE NITHIANS in origin, so if they "revert" to something, it should be their Nithian ancestry. They have nothing to do with Slavic culture at the beginning, and this Slavic turn is only present from BC 500 onwards, according to the sources, when they are in fact described as "Traladarans". This is why we tied to the events in the Five Shires which are just 3 centuries older: this gives the "raiding humans" who are chased out of the Shires by the hins the time to settle down and mix with the Traldars still living in Karameikos, thus forming the new "Traladaran-Slavic" society. Mind you, I'm doing my best to avoid creating new civilizations from scratch, so that's why I used the generic "human raiders" mentioned in GAZ8 as the source of the Slavic roots for the Traladarans. They basically gave the (pseudo-Greek) Traldars their linguistic influence and modified their complexion, taking however from them the history and myths regarding Halav & Co and becoming more sedentary like the Traldars. I am not saying there can be other explanations, only that up to now this is the most satisfying and realistic we have come up with. Obviously if IYC it's perfectly natural that a culture changes over a period of X decades from a certain type of RW civilization to another without outside influences, that's fair for you, do it. It's certainly the simplest way of handling it (and certainly your players won't complain about it coz they won't even know half the story behind this culture). But I can't accept it because it's not realistic. And since we're trying to elaborate a realistic approach to the ethnic "evolution" of the Mystaran civilizations, I have to look for other "more scientific" explanations (always without forgetting that magic may have played a role, since we're talking about Mystara -but it's not the case of the Traldars) ;) DM __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:42:03 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: TRALDARS --- DM wrote: > No it doesn't, sorry Chris :p > What you are forgetting here is what the Traldars' > REAL ancestry is: read every timeline concerning the > Traldars' coming to Karameikos and you'll see this > line "the Nithian Traldar clan". After a couple of generations in the Karameikos area, plague, starvation and other factors had reduced the Traldars to the stone age level. (That is pretty much from canon.) In previous discussions, I have made the assumption that that meant that the Traldar lost all of their egyptian-style culture at that time. This fits with the fact that the Traldar are do not appear in any way to have any egyptian traits as they appear in the HW. The Traldar fell under the Tutorship/Slavery of the Hutaakans after this, but that would not neccesarily have made adopt Hutaakan culture. As others have pointed out, the Traldars are not slavs nor greeks, but rather ancestors of the equivalents of both of these peoples in Mystara (Traladarans and Milenians). Just a thought. :) Håvard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:31:26 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Blackmoor d20 Havard Faanes wrote: > > * Blackmoor has Gods > This could easly be explained as Gods being the term > Blackmoorians use for Immortals, just as the Antalians > do. Yes, Gods and Immortals are basically the same thing anyway (i.e., in AD&D mortal *can* become gods, even though it is much less common than for Mystaran mortals). > * Thanatos is described to have been mortal at one > point. [..] > This story > could also simply be dismissed as a legend about > Thanatos whereas WotI could hold the truth. I'd go this way -- Thanatos in Mystara is one of the primal forces. > * There are Orcs in Blackmoor That's a problem indeed. However, I'd not solve it by modifying Mystaran canon: the creation of the Goblinoids, and the position of Orcs in the goblinoid races, are too important for the setting. There are a number of possible solutions: 1) Blackmoorian Orcs are actually a tribe of Beastmen, perhaps with a slightly different culture 2) Blackmoorian ``Orcs'' are a different species, unrelated to Beastmen; they are the ancestors of the "Half-Ogres" of Davania and Skothar (which we find in canon sources for Gombar and the N'djatwa), and perhaps of the Ogre Magi of Ochalea. 3) Blackmoorian ``Orcs'' are a different species, unrelated to Beastmen, but they will later merge with the Beastmen tribes during their Hyborean exile. > * Elves and Docrae Basically, if all of these elves died in the GRoF, then there is no possible interaction with Mystaran canon. > * Magic works differently > Magic works differently in Blackmoor. Spellbooks > aren't required to cast spells, there is a new arcane > class, and Sorcerers fill a unique role. These changes > could be explained in a number of ways too. Some of it > may be related to the creation of the Nucleus of the > Spheres. Uhm, this may be a more serious problem, but there may be some solution. Maybe during the Great Rain of Fire the natural magical aura of the planet was diminished, so that magic had to redevelop along different, ritualistic, lines, while pre-GRoF it was more easily accessed. Something like the effects of the reversed (Entropy-consuming) NoS. Bye, -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 16:02:12 +0200 From: la Volpe Subject: Re: TRALDARS --- Havard Faanes ha scritto: > As others have pointed out, the Traldars are not > slavs > nor greeks, but rather ancestors of the equivalents > of > both of these peoples in Mystara (Traladarans and > Milenians). If you look at the names of the Hollow World Traldar and at the names of their cities, they are clearly Greek, and their culture is modeled on Heroic Age Greece. So I suppose they are M-Greek. This at least is my interpretation. Then, and this is only my opinion on how I work on the setting, I like to have reasonable explanations for things. If we have a M-Slavic culture, and a M-Greek, they are different, and have a certain degree of affinity that must be more or less that of the Earth's equivalent cultures. Thus, in my way of interpretating the setting, it's impossible to have M-Slavs descending from M-Greeks, simply because in the real world Slavs descend from the Greek just as much as Norwegians descend from the Latins - so not very much, indeed. On the other hand, if someone thinks that a Greek speaking population, reverted to barbarism, would start its culture again and speak a Slavic language without any external intervention, it's like thinking that present day Norwegians, if reverted to barbarism, would later build a culture on their own that spoke Spanish. If you don't care for real world comparisons or explanations, fine. If you care for them, for a sort of "language logic" on Mystara, you may devise a language logic totally different from the Earth's to justify things. Or you could do something mixed, for some cultures yes, for others no, or justify things with Immortals, magic, or simply with "it's a fantasy setting, not everything needs a logical explanation". Personally I'm a little crazy, and given the fact that I am very fond of linguistics and ancient history, I try to make comparisons between Earth and Mystara. After all, to me that's the major attraction of the setting!!! As always, I apologize if I offended someone, but I am Italian and not always able to express myself in the most brilliant and non-offensive terms. I really think everyone should do what he/she pleases in his/her campaign, and I'm interested to hear the various explanations and perspective. Likewise I express my point of view and discuss and debate the reasons that, in my way of building the history and structure of the setting, pointed me toward one solution instead of another. Giulio ___________________________________ Nuovo Yahoo! Messenger: E' molto più divertente: Audibles, Avatar, Webcam, Giochi, Rubrica… Scaricalo ora! http://it.messenger.yahoo.it ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:07:07 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: TRALDARS --- la Volpe skrev: > If you look at the names of the Hollow World Traldar > and at the names of their cities, they are clearly > Greek, and their culture is modeled on Heroic Age > Greece. So I suppose they are M-Greek. This at least > is my interpretation. The main problem with this interpretation is that you mix language, culture and ethnicity. A culture having greek-sounding names does not neccesarily have a greek culture, etc. > Then, and this is only my opinion on how I work on > the > setting, I like to have reasonable explanations for > things. If we have a M-Slavic culture, and a > M-Greek, > they are different, and have a certain degree of > affinity that must be more or less that of the > Earth's > equivalent cultures. Thus, in my way of > interpretating > the setting, it's impossible to have M-Slavs > descending from M-Greeks, simply because in the real > world Slavs descend from the Greek just as much as > Norwegians descend from the Latins - so not very > much, > indeed. I think that is too restricive, and I think that if you look at the RW you will find pretty crazy examples of how cultures have developed. But again, a key phrase here could be "similar to". Say I agree to the Traldar being _similar to_ Heroic Age Greeks, that doesn't mean that they are identical. And what were the ancestors of RW slavs like anyways? Would they neccesarily have been so different from Heroic Age Greeks? Ofcourse, if you are talking about language, that is another issue. I have less of a problem accepting that the idea of greek evolving into a slavic language could be problematic, though since I am no linguistics expert I probably have less objections to the possibility. OTOH, the Sulescu-region seems to have Romanian roots, so perhaps there were several different language families around in ancient Traladara (each village being fairly isolated), and one language family just ended up becoming dominant? (Especially after the main Greek-oriented group left for Davania)? > On the other hand, if someone thinks that a Greek > speaking population, reverted to barbarism, would > start its culture again and speak a Slavic language > without any external intervention, it's like > thinking > that present day Norwegians, if reverted to > barbarism, > would later build a culture on their own that spoke > Spanish. Hehe, well, some crazy, but taken for granted RW facts: 1) Indians belong to the Indoeuropean ethnic group. 2) There are people in scandinavia speaking a language related to Hungarian (Finns) 3) There are people in Europe speaking a language that is not related to any neighbouring language (Basque). The above is nothing new to you, I am sure, but these things are pretty wild when you think about it. And if such things happen in the real world, imagine what could happen in a fantasy setting. :) > If you don't care for real world comparisons or > explanations, fine. If you care for them, for a sort > of "language logic" on Mystara, you may devise a > language logic totally different from the Earth's to > justify things. Or you could do something mixed, for > some cultures yes, for others no, or justify things > with Immortals, magic, or simply with "it's a > fantasy > setting, not everything needs a logical > explanation". First of all let me say that the work you, and others have presented on this topic are very interesting, and I would like you to keep it up. I like to have logical explainations to things, like you and as much as possible I prefer not using the "Immortal intervention card", or magic etc as explainations for things. However, I don't believe that things in Mystara have to have developed in exactly the same way as they did in our world. Afterall, there are alot of coincidences in the real world that made it the way it is today. Change some of those, and you'd have totally different results. Mystara is a bit like that. Plus, there is magic, immortal intervention, demihumans etc, which although I prefer not using it all the time certainly does play a role. > Personally I'm a little crazy, and given the fact > that > I am very fond of linguistics and ancient history, I > try to make comparisons between Earth and Mystara. > After all, to me that's the major attraction of the > setting!!! This is why I want to emphasize that I am not trying to stop you from making your theories. These past discissions have shown more than anything that there alot of really knowledgable people who care deeply for Mystara. You and the others are exactly the kind of people we need in this list! What we must all keep in mind ofcourse is that we all have different ideas about what Mystara should be like and how we like _our_ Mystara to be. I love reading about other peoples ideas about Mystara even if I don't always incorporate them into my own campaign. And many times, I find myself slowly beginning to use those ideas after a while anyways, once I sort of get used to them :) > As always, I apologize if I offended someone, but I > am > Italian and not always able to express myself in the > most brilliant and non-offensive terms. I really > think > everyone should do what he/she pleases in his/her > campaign, and I'm interested to hear the various > explanations and perspective. Likewise I express my > point of view and discuss and debate the reasons > that, > in my way of building the history and structure of > the > setting, pointed me toward one solution instead of > another. Since I have been pretty busy lately, I haven't had a chance to read all the emails in this thread as carefully as I would have liked, so I'm not sure if the discussion is getting heated or not, but at least I can say that you haven't offended me :) Your english seems fine to me (though I'm also not a native speaker), but it is important for all of us to keep the language factor in mind on this list. I think about half of the list members are non-english native speakers. This is great IMO as more diversity adds more diversity of ideas. But ofcourse, it also means that the discussions are more prone to misunderstandings and miscommunication, which is bad enough over the internet between people speaking the same native language, let alone in a situation like ours. So lets all keep the discussions rolling, it is what keeps our setting alive! :) Håvard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:21:12 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: Blackmoor d20 --- Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > > * Blackmoor has Gods > Yes, Gods and Immortals are basically the same thing > anyway (i.e., in AD&D mortal *can* become gods, even > though it is much less common than for Mystaran > mortals). Agreed. :-) > > * Thanatos is described to have been mortal at one > > point. [..] > I'd go this way -- Thanatos in Mystara is one of the > primal forces. My only reason for considering going with the DAB version is that it is really cool involving Thanatos stealing the immortal power of Sollus' brother. But like I said it could be dismissed as a legend among mortals. > > * There are Orcs in Blackmoor > > That's a problem indeed. However, I'd not solve it > by modifying Mystaran canon: the creation of the > Goblinoids, and the position of Orcs in the > goblinoid races, are too important for the setting. Blackmoor does not predate the creation of Beastmen however. It is simply the date when it is described that from this point on, Beastmen breed true, that is set after DAB.... > There are a number of possible solutions: > 1) Blackmoorian Orcs are actually a tribe of > Beastmen, perhaps with a slightly different culture Perhaps the Blackmoorian Beastmen, or some of them began developing into Orcs and such before others? This would not really contradict canon, which only refers to the main developments, not minor ones. Besides, the DA-series, for Mystara, also included Orcs.... > 2) Blackmoorian ``Orcs'' are a different species, > unrelated to Beastmen; they are the ancestors of the > "Half-Ogres" of Davania and Skothar (which we find > in canon sources for Gombar and the N'djatwa), and > perhaps of the Ogre Magi of Ochalea. Possible, but not my favourite option. > 3) Blackmoorian ``Orcs'' are a different species, > unrelated to Beastmen, but they will later merge > with the Beastmen tribes during their Hyborean > exile. Another possibility. Also, they could have simply been killed during the GRoF, or before that by the Blackmoorians themselves. > > * Elves and Docrae > > Basically, if all of these elves died in the GRoF, > then there is no possible interaction with Mystaran > canon. Yes. I also see the possibility of having some of these around on AC1000 Skothar, which would allow us to use DAB to further develop the modern day version of that continent. (This assumes Blackmoor is on Skothar) > > * Magic works differently > Uhm, this may be a more serious problem, but there > may be some solution. > Maybe during the Great Rain of Fire the natural > magical aura of the > planet was diminished, so that magic had to > redevelop along different, > ritualistic, lines, while pre-GRoF it was more > easily accessed. > Something like the effects of the reversed > (Entropy-consuming) NoS. Well, the differences aren't that major. It is simply that the Blackmoorians use crystals instead of spellbooks. This could simply be a form of Blackmoorian lore that could have been lost. AC1000 magic is probably based on Nithian or Alphatian rediscoveries of magic so not neccesarily related to the nature of magic, though your suggestions, or the introduction of the NoS changing the nature of magic are intriguing possibilities aswell. Håvard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:56:52 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: TRALDARS I am interested in this thread, not at starting flames, but putting in ideas. You are selling me on the Traldar become Traladara. Ancient Traldar could very well be Macedonian or even Etruscan. The Greeks went through several time periods. We have the Traldar, the Millenian, the Minnean. A good three periods. In non-canon we have other groups like the Doulakki, explaining more diversity of the city-states developing by themselves. No back to this Antalian stock coming in to give the Slavic root to our Traladara. Could we use an Avar group from Hule? They influence the city-states of the Savage Coast, they frequently raid Darokin, they briefly terrify Sind and the Shires; and when they overstretch themselves in the far eastern Traldar lands, they are assimilated by them. The contact with Sind can give us a direct link to the Darine, with some RW history. This group could also help with the creation of the Zuevo in the midlands. The Avar group would have started from Antalian/proto-Ethengarian stock, possibly the Antalians come from the same group that would one day form the Carnuilh. Once assimilated into the Hulean culture they become our Avari raiders. This make up may even give some cultural reasoning behind Hule raiding the eastern border. They could have always been doing so whenever the orcs were not doing it. They briefly stop for a time and lo and behold, cultures sprout up and we see the foundations of the Known World nations. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:03:55 -0500 From: James Mishler Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Traladaran_History_and_Heritage-One_Sage's_Viewpoint=2C_Pa?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?rt_1?= Ancient Origins of the Traldarans, Part 1 Excerpt from Chapter Three (2000 to 1000 BC) of the Book of Ages, by = Mystaros (Mortus Libris Publishing, Pandius, Matera) "During this period Orisis became acquainted with a traveler from the = far east, an elderly wizard who went by the name Thoth. Thoth and Orisis = became quick friends, despite the Undying nature of the OverKing. Thoth = revealed himself to be one of the legendary Stone Folk who was on a = great quest: he was searching for the reason behind the slow demise of = the Elder Dwarven race. Orisis was unable to help him directly, though = he was able to inform Thoth about Dwarven settlements to the north. = Thoth eventually continued on to the Dwarven lands in the north, = accompanied by his companion, the Dwarf known as Laughing Axe. After a = very nasty encounter with the minions of the Vampire-Queen = Nennaya-Sherat, the pair finally reached the lands of the Kogolor = Dwarves in 1900 BC [Ed.-modern Rockhome]. The elderly sage and his = companion were surprised to discover not only Dwarves, but also a race = of Humans living in the mountains. The Humans were a tribe of Neathar = that had been pushed out of the Northern Plains [Ed.-modern Ethengar] by = invading hordes of Oltecs around 2000 BC; they had long been the allies = of the Dwarves, and found refuge among them. But the Neathar were = nomads, and found the mountains and valleys to be extremely restrictive = [Ed.-the Neathar were a mix of several undifferentiated tribes, fused = into one macro tribe by the proto-Ethengar invasion. Needless to say, = due to early contacts with the invading proto-Ethengar, there was = already some Oltec blood in the line of several clans.] During his time in the Kogolor lands, when he was not investigating the = history of the Dwarves, Thoth regaled the Neathar with tales of the rich = plains to the south which were dominated by Tamyris, the realm ruled by = Nennaya-Sherat. Being a friend of Orisis, who was an enemy of = Nennaya-Sherat, and having his own vendetta against the Vampire-Queen, = Thoth convinced the Neathar clans to cleanse the plains of the realm of = Nennaya-Sherat. In doing so, they would win their own lands, lands that = were not unlike those they had left behind a hundred years before. Thoth = communicated with Orisis using magical means, and set up a series of = meetings whereby the Neathar clans would join with the forces of Orisis = in a concerted effort to destroy the realm of Tamyris. In return for his = assistance, the Neathar were able to acquaint Thoth with their Patron = Immortal, Kagyar, for the Neathar were known as the People of Kagyar. = [Ed.-Eventually, Thoth would convince Kagyar to assist the Dwarves, and = Thoth would go on to earn Immortality under the sponsorship of Kagyar]. Khypta was taken by the united forces of the People of Kagyar and the = forces of the city of Nithus in 1875 BC, and in 1850 BC the allies = destroyed Tamarnak itself. Her city razed and her forces shattered, = Nennaya-Sherat fled to the Isle of Serpents where abode her ally, = Setu-Kha. The People of Kagyar had settled in the plains around Khypta = in 1875 BC, and eventually they rebuilt the city, renaming it Khyptahr. = Over the years they would eventually adopt many Nithian customs, though = they always remained a people apart from other Nithians. They became = known to the Nithians as the "Ptahr Al-Dar" ("House of Ptahr" (Kagyar)). = During this period Orisis was able to bring Herunak and Djer-Amon into = his kingdom, as part of the alliance against Nennaya-Sherat and = Setu-Kha. Again, he allowed the people to keep their own faith, and = allowed them self-rule of their cities and lands. With the destruction = of Tamarnak, Orisis became the single ruler of the entire Eastern = Realm." The Traldar Migration-Some Minor Historical Comparisons and Notes from = Mystaros The "great Traldar migration," as it is known in history and song, was = not so great as it is made out to be. Liken it more unto the Norman = migration to Angle-Land in your own world of Earth. A fair number, but = not great number, of Normans, mostly nobles and younger sons of nobles, = migrated to the northern island after its conquest in the year 1066 CE. = Similarly, and perhaps more pointedly, in ancient Greece, the Heraclids, = proto-Hellenes of the Indo-European group, related to modern Greeks as = the Belgae were related perhaps to modern English, migrated south from = your Balkan territories into the territories of the Minoans (also known = as Pelasgians to your archaeologists, though the latter-day Greeks = mis-applied this to the pre-Dorian Greeks). Regardless of comparisons, the fact remains that of those peoples found = south of the Cruth-Altan Tepes range following 1500 BC, perhaps one in = 50 was of the vaunted Ptahr-Al-Dar, while the remainder were remnants of = the ancient Taymoran peoples, who had lived in relative savagery amidst = the ruins of their northernmost kingdoms for centuries. One can readily = compare the patriarchal Kagyar-worshiping Ptahr-Al-Dar to the ancient = Heraclids, and the matriarchal Nyx-worshiping Taymorans to the = Pelasgians. Note too, that while the Ptahr-Al-Dar were ostensibly = Nithian, the Nithian culture was merely a thin veneer over their ancient = Neathar ways-especially among those who chose to leave the ever more = restrictive Nithian society. The vast majority of the Ptahr-Al-Dar dwelt along the seacoast and along = the river banks, where they built trading posts and small citadels, as = the vast majority of the interior was still held by primitive tribes of = Taymorans and things less pleasant. Though the colonists themselves made = the long trek to their new land over the mountains and through the = forests (a great saga of the day itself), support for the colonists was = supposed to come by sea, the cheapest and quickest route. Unfortunately, = the various concerns of the growing empire turned elsewhere, as = politically the quasi-Neathar Ptahr-Al-Dar of Nithia lost support with = the Pharaoh, and the promised development of trade never appeared. The = colonists were on their own... ... to be continued ... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:46:57 -0400 From: Donald Eric Kesler Subject: Re: Blackmoor d20 http://www.geocities.com/heroclixleagueofathens/ Hello, I don't see this as a problem. One of the features of a typical Mystara campaign is that there is different Magic in every land. Consider how the Republic of Darokin has its Merchant Princes or how the Wizards of Glantri has secret crafts. I could cite other examples like the Clerics of the Northern Reaches or the Shaman of Ethengar, but I think you see where I am coming from. Basically, this is a style of Magic that was developed in the Northern most portion of the Thonian Empire. It was lost during the Great Rain of Fire. Regards and Best Wishes, Donald Eric Kesler > * Magic works differently > Magic works differently in Blackmoor. Spellbooks > aren't required to cast spells, there is a new arcane > class, and Sorcerers fill a unique role. These changes > could be explained in a number of ways too. Some of it > may be related to the creation of the Nucleus of the > Spheres. > > Comments? > > Håvard > > ===== > *** > Håvard R. Faanes > www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/default.aspx > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:51:06 -0400 From: Donald Eric Kesler Subject: Re: Blackmoor d20 Hello All, What about Gnomes and Dwarves. Why am I thinking that they were changed by the Great Rain of Fire? Did Gnomes exisit at all on Mystara prior to the Great Rain of Fire? Personally, in my campaign, I am inclined to introduce Garl Glitterlode as a mortal Dwarf living and working at the University of Blackmoor. Basically, his ability to crack the Beagle's technological code is what allows him to one day attain Immortality. Regards and Best Wishes, Donald Eric Kesler _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:17:35 +0200 From: la Volpe Subject: Re: Blackmoor d20 --- Donald Eric Kesler ha scritto: > Hello, > > Did you notice the change that was made to Marfeldt? > Personally, I'm going > to miss the last anarchist. > I haven't read the old Blackmoor adventures, though I have them in ESD format, and surely I didn't read them when they came out...so I don't know, how was Marfeldt the Barbarian in the old DA supplements described? Or was he a character of the oldest Blackmoor products? Giulio ___________________________________ Nuovo Yahoo! Messenger: E' molto più divertente: Audibles, Avatar, Webcam, Giochi, Rubrica… Scaricalo ora! http://it.messenger.yahoo.it ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:50:42 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: TRALDARS Francesco Defferrari ha scritto: > > Probably we should assign the different slavic nationalities to the various > Traladaran nations of Mystara, from Traladara to Boldavia, Savage coast city > states, Midlands and Zuyevo. That is quite easily done: according to Bruce Heard, the City-States are thought as corresponding to various Yugoslavian regions (somewhere in the Vaults you'll find the exact correspondences). Olgar (in the Hulean Empire) is M-Bulgaria, Boldavia is M-Rumenia or Moldova. Zuyevo is M-Russia, but it's not a Traladaran nation, IIRC. > M-hungarians in the midlands and Yes, this is Monzag. > And we have M-albanian, M-polish, M-slovakians, M-ukrainians, M-belarusians > still to place. Albanians are not Slavic, so they hardly fit in the Traldaran scheme. The rest may be used for different regions of Zuyevo, if needed. > Maybe somewhere in the Midlands of Brun? Depends on what you want to place in the Midlands. Myself, I go by Christian Constantin's version (I like it a lot, except for a couple points, like the M-Rumenian descendants of the Blackmoorians, which I would have replaced with Albanians or some other non-indoeuropeans, probably), which means that the Midlands are mostly inhabited by Mystaran versions of the people of central asia (from caucasus to Afghanistan). The ``Northern Barbarians'' may include some of these Slavic nations, of course. Bye, GP ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:57:21 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Blackmoor d20 Havard Faanes ha scritto: > > My only reason for considering going with the DAB > version is that it is really cool involving Thanatos > stealing the immortal power of Sollus' brother. But > like I said it could be dismissed as a legend among > mortals. Exactly, it could still be a legend (perhaps with some grain of truth). > Blackmoor does not predate the creation of Beastmen > however. It is simply the date when it is described > that from this point on, Beastmen breed true, that is > set after DAB.... Not only that: when the Beastmen start breeding true, they stop being Beastmen, and become goblinoids -- i.e., Beastmen and goblinoids should not exist at the same time (not for more than a few generations, anyway). > Besides, the DA-series, for Mystara, also included > Orcs.... Which means that whoever wrote the Beastman stuff was already rewriting history... >> 2) Blackmoorian ``Orcs'' are a different species, >> unrelated to Beastmen; they are the ancestors of the >> "Half-Ogres" of Davania and Skothar (which we find >> in canon sources for Gombar and the N'djatwa), and >> perhaps of the Ogre Magi of Ochalea. > > Possible, but not my favourite option. Still, it would solve another *big* problem: how comes that Ogres can be found in Davania right after GRoF if they did not even exist at the time? > Another possibility. Also, they could have simply been > killed during the GRoF, or before that by the > Blackmoorians themselves. Ah, of course. > Yes. I also see the possibility of having some of > these around on AC1000 Skothar, which would allow us > to use DAB to further develop the modern day version > of that continent. (This assumes Blackmoor is on > Skothar) Of course, or in the Hollow World/Moon, etc. > This could simply be a form of > Blackmoorian lore that could have been lost. AC1000 > magic is probably based on Nithian or Alphatian Taymoran, also. But Alphatians would not use spellbooks, IMO, in their highly magical native environment. GP ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 13:23:20 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Rakastas, Ochalea & Myoshima (...and Makai!) Francesco Defferrari ha scritto: > > I like to consider ochaleans not whole chinese > but southern chinese, who were originally austronesian AFAI remember. Or > they could have been austronesian and later chinese influenced by the > chinese empire devised by Hervè or by the rakasta as you and others > originally thought. I'd rather have the opposite, since Rakasta are not M-Chinese (except by later influence). > I know, but originally they have a lot less importance in the setting. Mind > that I don't want to marginalize lupins and rakastas in Mystara and I like > them as major races too, I just don't like to use them to explain human > cultures, particulary in the Known World and other nations, like Ochalea, > that were devised a lot before them. I understand this, but consider that there's really nothing written on Ochalea, which is but a small part of Thyatis (and was designed only in DotE). Also, I don't see why human cultures should be original, while non-humans should not. It seems to be a common issue, though -- I had a hard time bashing the idea that Ethengar culture was heavily influenced by the Goblinoids back on the Italian board ;) > Yes, that's another matter, I know I'll not ever have many archeological PCs And even if they were, there's no reason why their information should be correct :) GP ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:39:23 -0500 From: James Mishler Subject: Traladaran History, Part 2: Populations of the Dread Sea Coast cs. 2000 to 1500 BC At the end of the Age of Taymor, when the Sea of Dread swallowed the = Damned Empire, there survived but a small number of the original = inhabitants of the northern core kingdoms of the Taymoran Empire. No city survived as such, as the great earthquakes and tidal waves = devastated any major settlements. Of the teeming millions (yes - = millions - perhaps as many as five million at one time) that once lived = in the Empire, perhaps 1 in 100 survived - around 50,000. Even in the = days of the Empire at its height, these lands were lightly populated, = and regarded as a backwater. The northern plains of the Western and = Eastern Kingdoms (modern Darokin and Ylaruam, respectively) were more = heavily settled, as the southern face of the Kur'rutu Peaks (modern = Cruth to Altan Tepes), a region of densely forested hills, was home to = the darkest hidden towers guarded by the grimmest servants of the = Necromancer-Kings. Those that survived the destruction of the Empire, then, were mostly the = servants of the northern lords (and of some southern lords, as well, for = the many towers scattered among the hills were often the "summer homes" = of the various children of Nyx). These were among the least-educated, = most oppressed, and heavily superstitious of all the Taymorans - kept so = by their dark lords, for reasons of politics or pleasure. But now, most = of these peoples were freed from the service of their dread masters, = many being lost in the final battle before the gates of the capital = city, Colhador-on-Hadas. So they were, for the most part, left without = direction, leadership, or any sort of advanced cultural knowledge. Most, = that is... Some few Vampires and Nosferatu survived in the north, as did their = Werewolf, Werebat, and other dark servants. Many creations and monsters = also survived. The land from modern Athenos to Tel Akbir became a = patchwork of primitive tribes, microscopic dark kingdoms, and howling = wilderness. During this time of chaos, to the northeast in the Eastern Kingdom, a = new empire slowly arose: Nithia. To the northwest in the Western = Kingdom, the most recent addition to the Empire and still a borderland = colony by any definition, there, too, chaos reigned. Recently conquered = tribes of Oltec and Azcan savages rebelled against the few remaining = overlords, and slaughtered them mercilessly, with the assistance of = their clerics of Otzitiotl, the Sun-Prince. However, many of the dark = lords followers were converts from the native Oltecs and Azcan tribes. = These, ratehr than face extermination at the hands of their outraged = brethren, fled north and east, over the Highland glaciers and mountains, = and down into the Great Plains, then a rich and verdant field stretching = hundreds of miles. These plains were already occupied by disparate = tribes of Neathar peoples... primitive, by even the relatively barbaric = standards of the tattered remnants of the followers of the = Necromancer-Kings. The battles went against the Stone Age savages, = rapidly, and the Neathar tribes began migrating south and east, into the = mountains and hills controlled by their allies, the Kogolor Dwarves. = Within a hundred years the descendents of the Oltecs and Azcans = controlled the Great Plains, and the Neathar, reduced in number, licked = their wounds in the highlands to the south... where a stroke of luck = saved two races, and changed the face of the history of the Known World. But that is a story for elsewhen, for now we return to the coastlands of = the Sea of Dread, far to the south.By 1900 BC things had changed but = little for the descendants of the Taymoran survivors. Here a savage = village of fishermen survived, there a small tribe of Stone Age = primitive scrabbled a bare existence. In some places, darkness warped = the land, wolves howled, and pale figures stalked the night, men to then = little more than kine. Men worshipped Mother Night, and sacrificed their = kings to her, in propitiation. Some fell under the knife, others were = given to her sons and daughters. Further to the south, in the Sea of Dread, among the islands, something = stirred...=20 An excerpt from Chapter Three of the Book of Ages: "During the final weeks of the Taymoran Civil War the ruler of Nithus = [Ed.-the capital city of the Eastern Kingdom] had turned to the ways of = Thanatos; he had been opposed in this regard by several of his progeny, = which were led by the twin brothers Orisis and Setu-Kha. Shortly after = the Cataclysm, the brothers were able to depose and dispose of their = master. Orisis ascended to the throne of the OverKing, as he was the = popular leader and elder of the twins (though only by minutes). Many of = the cities did not recognize his rule, as they had rejected the old ways = or were still ruled by minions of Thanatos; thus, the title of OverKing = was effectively an empty one. Still, Orisis was the overlord of the = eastern third of the Eastern Realm, which included the only remaining = city of great note (Nithus) and the rich Delta Kingdom and fertile Lake = Kingdom (Payuum). However, Thanatos was still not satisfied with the = destruction of the majority of the Taymoran Empire, and he saw a unique = opportunity for destruction in the relationship between Orisis and = Setu-Kha. Thanatos was able to convince Setu-Kha that he should take the throne = from Orisis, and was able to turn Setu-Kha over to his side, to become a = Vampire. Setu-Kha rebelled against his brother in 1950 BC, and attacked = the city of Nithus with allies from Tamyris and Nubt. He was defeated = however, and he and his servants were forced to flee from the Eastern = Realm. He fled to an island in the newly formed northern Sea of Dread = [Ed.-the large island, which some call the "Kikianu Caldera"], the = legendary Isle of the Serpent where now lie the Isles of Ierendi. He = gathered his own allies from the darker realms, notably the Serpentines = of Davania, who sent him Lizard Men as shock troops. His servants also = brought Makai Slaves from the southern isles, to serve him and his = people. Orisis spent the next 50 years rebuilding his kingdom, purging = the land of Payuum of its corruption. He also conquered the city of = Nubt, and was able to make the rulers of the city of Munak recognize him = as their OverKing (though he left their faith untouched... Orisis had = become more tolerant in the years following the cataclysm)." Though he was very careful not to challenge the power of Orisis north of = the mountains, in the former Taymoran lands Setu-Kha began a reign of = terror. He built cities along the coast, upon the ruins of ancient = cities and towns, and gave these petty kingdoms into the hands of his = greater followers (leaving the Isle fo the Serpents for himself). He = attempted to take some of the eastern isles, but was held at bay by the = forces of the Meditor and Verdier of Alfisle. He experienced similar = difficulties in attempting to take the western forests of the mainland = from the Vyalia. But these wer eminor setbacks, as he was interested = only in regaining enough power to take back what he felt was rightfully = his... the Eastern Kingdom. Meanwile, the peoples of the mainland absorbed some Makai blood, as the = soldiers and servants of Setu-Kha ruled over their lands. Similarly, the = Makai of the Isle of the serpents absorbed Taymoran bloodlines, as well. = Over all, the clerics of Thanatos and the new faith of Setu-Kha (who = already considered himself on the level of the Immortals) ruled, adding = elements of serpent-worship to the faith of the native Taymorans. But = again, all was merely preparation for the grand even, the conquest of = Nithus. This was accomplished in 1800 BC, after Orisis had a falling out = with his then patron, Nyx, and Setu-Kha moved in quickly, had him = assassinated (and the parts of his body cast to the four corners of = Mystara). When Setu-Kha finally obtained that which he had so long = desired, he all but abandoned the other mainland territories, drawing = away all his soldiers and his lizard men stormtroopers, leaving only a = token force on the Isle of Serpents itself. The mainland fell into = chaos, as new petty kings (and queens) arose. His victory was = short-lived, however, as the Resurrected Orisis returned, and was able = (with the help of his old allies, the Ptahr-Al-Dar of Khyptahr) cast = Setu-Kha out from Nithus in 1750 BC. A long-drawn battle then occured, at sea, in the air, and over the lands = in between the Isle of the Serpent and Nithus. The Taymorans were not = unaffected by this, and most of the cultural gains they made were lost = in the chaos that followed. With the death of Setu-Kha (however = temporary it was) and the destruction of the Isle of the Serpent in 1700 = BC, the Taymorans were finally left to thjeir own devices, as the new = Nithian Empire turned inward, and began its first golden age. >> From 1700 to 1500, the Taymorans once again developed on their own. They = had adopted some of the ways of the followers of Setu-Kha, notably = ship-building, ceremony, and some religion (though most tribes and = villages remained staunch followers of Nyx, the serpent, as well as = other monstrous beasts that waxed great under Setu-Kha, became a fixed = part of Taymoran myth). They spread out to the newly-formed islands, = where once stood the Isle fo the Serpent, those settlers to further mix = their blood with the native Makai survivors. Physically, the Taymorans = ranged from swarthy to pale, generally with straight black or dark brown = hair and brown or hazel eyes. The northern hill tribes were duskier, = with slightly coppery skin tones, having absorbed some Azcan Savage = blood from minor incursions that followed the Highlands Disaster in 1700 = BC (which reduced the once fertile eastern plains of modern Darokin to a = scraggly brush). Slowly, ever so slowly, the Taymorans built up a new = civilization. A few towns even grew, along the coast, and a trickle of = trade began again. Some of the more peaceful, less Entropic-oriented = tribes (followers of Astertu, Lord of the Moon) even made friendly = contact with the Vyalia and Truedyl Elves. Civilization, of a sort, = began to bloom once again. Then, in 1500 BC, came the Ptahr-Al-Dar over the northern mountains, and = brought it all to ruin... ,,, to be continued... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 00:45:50 +0200 From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Blackmoor d20 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Havard Faanes" > Do you still have that list? I would be very > interested in seeing that. :) Uhm, I think it's on my old hard disk. While I still have that, it's a major hassle getting it into the new computer... Don't expect anything any time soon. ; ) Jacob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 00:48:14 +0200 From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Blackmoor d20 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Havard Faanes" > I was wondering when that topic was going to show up > on the list! :) > > Converting DAB to Mystara shouldn't be that hard IMO. I'm saving comments until I've read the entire book. I was just thinking out loud. ; ) Jacob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 19:26:52 -0700 From: Dave Keyser Subject: Re: Rakastas, Ochalea & Myoshima (...and Makai!) > > Well, they've been there since the beginning, actually. Rakasta appear > in Castle Amber as followers of Sire Richard and Sire Andre-David, and > in the Isle of Dread as nomadic tribes. The Lupins appear in Castle > Amber as followers of Sire Claude and Sire Andre-David. > So at least they existed in Glantri *before* the Gazetteer. Too bad > Bruce did not use them at the time, and only reintroduced the Lupins in > the later DM article. > While I have lupins in the Known World from Dragon Magazine #237, citing X2 is not strong evidence for the existence of lupins or rakasta in Glantri. In that module it mentions that one of the groups, not sure which, but I think it is the lupins, were originally human, but polymorphed into their current form as the curse. One can make an argument that all lupins and rakasta in that module are nothing but polymorphed humans. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 19:35:50 -0700 From: Dave Keyser Subject: Re: Blackmoor d20 Love this book, and if I run a 3.5 campaign some day, it will probably be in Blackmoor. But IMO, this book should serve as supplementation for Blackmoor Mystara campaigns, taking the parts you can use, rather than trying to merge it with what we have in Mystara products and the DA modules. The Wizards Cabal has changed. In the DA modules, it is composed of renegades trying to overthrow the King. Here is is the Wizard's Guild, outside of which are the renegades. The timeline has been shifted around a bit compared to the DA modules. Technology is a bit more advanced, plus 3.5E conventions don't fit well with DA D&D conventions. Plus a few other things. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 22:27:20 -0500 From: James Mishler Subject: Traladaran History, Part 3: A Symposium in Thyatis, Part 1 Antalians: The First People Excerpts from the transcript of "The First Valley: A Study of the = Antalian Peoples," by Philios Jandarsites-Schmidt of Thyatis, given on = Moldain, the 11th of Yarthmont, 872 Anno Coronare, at the Imperial = Academy of History, City of Thyatis. "Fellow Thyatians, distinguished scholars, welcome guests. Thank you = ever so much for coming to my little presentation... "As has been known for some time now, scholars have discovered a most = unusual tendency toward similarities in the various languages and = cultures of our Known World. From the Dunael and Aran peoples of the = northern Isle of Dawn, to the Sindhi peoples of the far southwest, in = our travels and Imperial conquests we have, again and again and again = discovered common words, grammar, myths, legends, and even phenotypes. = The list is endless. "Some, the clergy especially, would have that this is so simply because = of the will of the Immortals, and that those peoples who are most like = the Thyatians are, in fact, best suited to be a part of our Empire. = Especially among the followers of Vanya, this is taught, as part of = their 'Manifest Destiny,' calling for the conquest of all the Immortal's = Children, that they might be brought together, in one happy family, as = it were. "'Manifest Destiny'! Bah! Poppycock, say I!" "But politics and religion aside, as a scholar I must say this-these = peoples, these greatly disparate peoples, who still have yet so much in = common, linguistically, religiously, and culturally, are in fact, = descended all from the same, single tribe, of which at one time the = Thyatians, Kerendans, and Hattians... yes, even the Hattians, were but = singular clans, or even septs." "Yes, yes, this I can prove! I have, over the last thirty years, poured = not only over the great myth cycles and legends of these vastly = disparate peoples, but also traveled to many of these lands, even unto = the far distant barbarian lands beyond Ocean's End, in the lands beyond = the Northern Wolds, where great deer the size of dragons roam, bears = white as mother of pearl wander the mountains, and an arc of fire lights = the night skies. There, in the land which our forefathers claimed was = 'the land behind the winds,' I found the final pieces of the puzzle, = dredged up, as it were, from the barbaric past, where it has long been = hidden. "It shall be simplest, I think, to provide for you an historical outline = of these peoples, whom I name 'Antalians,' after the style of the = northern barbarians themselves. The word is a derivative of the northern = barbarians cognates for 'first' and 'valley.' These people, the 'People = of the First Valley,' the uttermost ancestors of the Thyatians, = Kerendans, Hattians, the various peoples of the Northern Reaches, the = Heldanners, the Daro, aye, even the Dunael and the Aran and the Caerda = in the east, the distant Alatians, the ancient Traldar of legendry and = their descendants, the Traladarans, and far to the west, the Sindhis and = Urduks and then back, back to the far northern lands, where the last, = savage remnants of the original first peoples survive in barbaric glory. "There it began, in a long-ago age. From my estimation, at least three = thousand years before the crowning of Zendrolion upon the bloody dias. = Far to the north, in 'the land behind the winds.' It is easy to = understand the name given to that place by the ancient bards, as it is, = indeed, a very windy land, from the cold wintery winds in which howl = wolves and giants, to the warm summer winds which might all-too-well be = whipped up by the wings of a dragon, that mountainous, forested realm, = of great grassy meadows and deep hidden bogs, is the original homeland = of the Thyatians and all their brother and cousin and kindred races. "Four thousand years ago, and for untold ages before that, there = wandered our primitive ancestors, clad in the furs of beasts, wielding = weapons of wood and stone, surviving in the harshest of conditions, the = likes of which we, in our sun-dappled lands, can barely imagine, though = I myself have braved them. It was then, four long millennia ago, that = something happened. These primitive, pristine, barbaric peoples began a = long, great march. Why, even the ancient myths do not say. Was it = wanderlust? A shift in the climate? Perhaps a population explosion = required a movement of nations. Though they were not nations at this = time, no, merely simple clans and tribes, who moved with all they owned = upon their backs. For even at that time, they had not the use of horse = or even ass." "So then, through judicious research, and application of magics arcane = and divine, I was able to discover through first-person questioning the = nature and spread of these earliest Antalians. They spread out in a = great, wide fan, radiating out from a central point somewhere in the = Icereach Range, a great glacier-capped mountain range far beyond the = Northern Wolds. There, perhaps buried under tons of ice, lies the = original home of all our ancestors." "Try as I might, I was unable to find this original, 'an-tal,' or 'first = valley,' wherein our ancestors arose. The summers are very short in that = land, and even then, in the Icereach, the summers are deadly. And by the = time I discovered this, our most ancient homeland, I was well past my = physical prime. "But that is neither here nor there. From this one, single spot, our = ancestors migrated outward, and southward. Ever southward. An early = branch, several tribes at least, passed over a long-lost land bridge to = the Isle of Dawn. From these tribes are descended the Dunael, Aran, and = Caerda peoples of that island." "Thank you, thank you all for returning. And thank those who did not for = not returning. As I mentioned prior to our break, the easternmost branch = of what I call the 'Antalian' peoples, the Dunael and their cousins, the = Aran and the Caerda, drifted off to the Isle of Dawn, and there = developed apart from their cousins on the mainland. Of those that = remained, three major branches developed. I shall deal with the far = western group first, as I am as yet uncertain of the complete lineage = thereof, and it concerns us the least at this juncture. These peoples, = the proto-Urduks, the ancestors of the modern Urduks and Sindhi, broke = off again relatively early from the main trunk of tribes, and migrated = far to the west, across the great plateau and through the strange lands = thereabouts. Of these peoples I have no personal, direct knowledge, I = have merely studied the tomes and scrolls that have come to us through = trade with the Far West, of which the language has certain elements that = are distinctly Antalian, as well as elements which most certainly are = not. Certain myths and legends show Antalian influence, as well. Thus, = an Antalian ancestry among the Urduks and the Sindhis cannot be doubted, = but in all honesty, I have no way at this time to determine the breadth = and depth of that ancestry. "One of my younger compatriots, a student of mine, is of the belief that = the ancestors of the Urduks and Sindhi were a people related to, but = distinctly not Antalian. I myself am not ready to accept this theory, = but I feel it may have some merit in investigating, thus I mention it = here. The other two macro-branches of the Antalian peoples are those that = concern us the most, for it is from these two branches that the three = tribes of Thyatis descend. These two groups I name the Western Antalians = and the Eastern Antalians. The Western Antalians settled the broad = plains that today are the domain of the Ethengar nomads." "No, no, the proof I have for my assertion is incontrovertible! Again, = though at great danger to myself and my assistants, and with no small = assistance from various tribes (most graciously, the Tokraits) I made a = study of the most ancient dolmens and tombs found on the plains and in = the hills thereabout. The grave goods we found therein, and the = inhabitants we consulted through magical means, were most distinctly = Antalian in nature and origins, not Ethengar. In fact, after gaining = entry into Rockhome-at first accidently, not realizing we had crossed = some ill-defined 'border', and thereafter legally, after much haggling-I = discovered that these ancient structures continued into Rockhome! In = fact, many sections of hill and meadow, avoided by the native dwarves, I = discovered to be ancient settlements of Antalian make, complete with = barrows. And there I discovered the first evidence of bronze working! "And so it was that from the furthest reaches of the western plains and = hills of Ethengar, to the very seacoast of the petty earldoms south and = east of Vestland, I discovered a new evolution in the Antalian = culture-bronze, and the use of distinctive bronze axes." "Yes, indeed, sir? Ah, yes, Sir Klagen? Theoderic von Klagendorf? = Student of Professor Tatziakanites? How good to have you here, sir! = Thank you, yes, your question was most welcome, and pre-empted my very = own discussion, as that was, in fact, where I was heading. Indeed, I did = discover quite a bit of variation overall, however, as I mentioned, the = Antalians at this point were divided into at least two different groups, = the Western and the Eastern. The Western Antalian groups were, indeed as = you suspect, shorter, broader, and tended toward a more mixed range of = linguistic variation-as you surmised, from mixing with other local = races, of lesser physical stature. Though of course, short and broad is = relative, as even the shortest of the modern northerners pales in = comparison to our ancestors. But in some cases, exclusively among the = Western Antalians, those found in Rockhome, we discovered remnants of a = sub-branch, perhaps a clan or tribe, that was almost dwarven in stature, = though distinctly not related to modern dwarves, I assure you. "They were neither as short nor as broad as modern dwarves, nor did they = have the extreme bone structure of that race. The divine origins of the = dwarves, too, is beyond doubt, even in my most skeptical eyes. I should = note, however, that when forced through magical means, the decedents of = these barrows were most reticent to impart any information of their own. = Perhaps they were a tribe cursed by the Immortals? Fuel for further = research, I am sure. "But yes, to answer your question, already by this point, from the = tattered remnants of the remains of the decedents, and the tales from = the decedents themselves, it was obvious that local bloodlines were = mingling with the Antalian bloodlines in the western group. "What's that? Yes, the Eastern group did exhibit the maintenance of more = traditional goods, linguistic structures, and phenotype. From what I = have been able to gather, up until about thirty centuries ago, the = Eastern Antalians had little in the way of local competition from other = humans, though definitely from non-human races. From paintings on the = walls of the barrows it was obvious that they faced giants, trolls, and = even dragons during their long march south and east. In fact, it was = difficult to keep many of the decedents from bragging about their = battles, and keep them on tract with the questions at hand." "This is the point, however, between thirty and twenty-six centuries = ago, where the histories of the Antalians, Eastern and Western, take an = abrupt turn. In the west, a horse-born culture, obviously from the = descriptions I received from the decedents, as well as from barrow = goods, the ancestors of the Ethengar, arrived in the great western = plains, and in a matter of three or four generations pushed the = remaining plains-dwelling Western Antalians into the mountains where now = can be found Rockhome; the few Eastern Antalian tribes of the plains = (and there were a few) were also forced east, to join their brethren. At = the same time, or shortly thereafter, in the time-frame of nations, two = other movements impacted upon our ancestors. "From the north came a great horde of humanoids. Yes, I know, many of = you will mock me, but I maintain that the ancient fairy-tales of 'King = Loricus and Prince Achileus' the 'demons from the land beyond the winds' = are no simple tales, but are in fact based upon historical events!" "Whatever their origin, this great horde and its leaders pushed the = Antalians, Eastern and Western, further south-and decimated, by the by, = the recently settled Ethengars. But at the same time, a far more = important development occurred in the east, as the Eastern Antalians = along the seacoast were also invaded-by the equally mythical race known = as the Thonians!" ... to be continued ... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 01:49:25 -0400 From: Donald Eric Kesler Subject: Re: Blackmoor d20 Hello, Basically, Marfeldt is described as "The Last Anarchist". He honestly despises all forms of government. He only supports Blackmoor because they oppose the Thonia Empire that is even more restrictive. He is also described as a very difficult person to be around. If he has an enemy; he will kill them. If he has an ally; he will offend him. He demands a fortune for his skills as a a warrior. He is worth it. He will take this great wealth and spend it on revels for himself and his friends. A party is not complete if the tavern is still standing when the party is over. Marfeldt also has a sixth sense about where great battles or events will transpire. Generally, he is drawn to such locations. Veteran warriors who see Marfeldt approaching will begin to ready their armor and check their weapons, for surely a great battle will follow in his wake. It is never made clear if he merely is able to foresee these conflicts, or if he somehow creates this chaos. Another odd trait. Everyone likes Marfeldt. If a character spends at least a day in Marfeldt's company, that character must make a saving throw vs. spells or act as if he or she was under a charm spell. Regards and Best Wishes, Donald Eric Kesler http://www.geocities.com/heroclixleagueofathens/ > From: la Volpe > Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Blackmoor d20 > Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:17:35 +0200 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Received: from mc4-f41.hotmail.com ([65.54.190.177]) by mc4-s17.hotmail.com > with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6824); Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:20:19 -0700 > Received: from oracle.wizards.com ([209.221.142.150]) by > mc4-f41.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6824); Fri, 29 Oct 2004 > 12:20:19 -0700 > Received: from lotus (10.12.8.13) by oracle.wizards.com (LSMTP for Windows > NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.01388D9C@oracle.wizards.com>; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 > 12:19:15 -0700 > Received: from ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM by ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM (LISTSERV-TCP/IP > release 1.8d) with spool id 40243990 for > MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:17:35 -0700 > Received: from web41002.mail.yahoo.com (66.218.93.1) by oracle.wizards.com > (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id > <0.01388D40@oracle.wizards.com>; Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:17:35 -0700 > Received: from [82.105.207.211] by web41002.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, > 29 Oct 2004 21:17:35 CEST > X-Message-Info: LGjzam7y+LussTGU4c459Py4rZ4Edg3azYl5UCKacuc= > Message-ID: <20041029191735.1473.qmail@web41002.mail.yahoo.com> > In-Reply-To: > Return-Path: owner-mystara-l@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Oct 2004 19:20:19.0741 (UTC) > FILETIME=[544BECD0:01C4BDEC] > > --- Donald Eric Kesler > ha scritto: > > Hello, > > > > Did you notice the change that was made to Marfeldt? > > Personally, I'm going > > to miss the last anarchist. > > > I haven't read the old Blackmoor adventures, though I > have them in ESD format, and surely I didn't read them > when they came out...so I don't know, how was Marfeldt > the Barbarian in the old DA supplements described? Or > was he a character of the oldest Blackmoor products? > > Giulio > > > > ___________________________________ > Nuovo Yahoo! Messenger: E' molto più divertente: Audibles, Avatar, Webcam, > Giochi, Rubrica… Scaricalo ora! > http://it.messenger.yahoo.it > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/default.aspx > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 28 Oct 2004 to 29 Oct 2004 (#2004-234) ****************************************************************