Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 11 Nov 2004 to 12 Nov 2004 (#2004-246) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 13/11/2004, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 5 messages totalling 250 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Magical Evolution (2) 2. Desperate!! Need info from B10 3. Vanya (2) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/default.aspx To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:21:07 -0500 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Magical Evolution All this going back in time has given me some thought on another aspect of old history. What were spells like from ancient times till now? If Blackmoors had no spell books, when did this evolve? Who first scribed our modern spells down in text? Is this an Alphatian or elven invention? Nithians had their obelisks, Northland Priests have their Runes, could these two cultures given rise to magic user imitators for the Secret Craft? Was Magic Missile invented recently, or was it a second or third level spell in 400AC? Here is a thought, the Shadow Elf shamans use crystals, much like Blackmoorians, so would this mean that Alphatians were the first to use spell books? Are some spells more specific to cultures than others? Can we detail the green magic missile has a line of descent from Thyatian mages as compared to the sparkly blue from Minrothad Pirates? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:36:47 -0800 From: Brendan Corliss Subject: Desperate!! Need info from B10 Getting ready to run B10 tomorrow (woohoo!) - unfortunately, I am missing some pages from my .pdf and my physical copy of the module is MIA. If anyone could e-mail the stats from the 2nd page of the NPC list, I would deeply appreciate it. My .pdf drops off at in the middle of Kuzma's description and then the next page is something else entirely. Thnaks so much in advance, Damon ===== May all your endeavors be Gold! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 21:01:18 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Vanya Ville V Lähde ha scritto: > > As I mentioned, I got the notion that Vanya wasn't "The" Immortal in > Thyatis from Giulio's article "The Official Thyatian Religion" in the > Vaults. But of course that is just one more possible view on the Thyatian > "Church", albeit a very well written one. There was also the one about > Mithraite cult in Thyatis, but that is of course an even more intentional > rewrite of Thyatian culture. Of course. In Giulio's version, an greater importance is given to Ixion, that's why there Vanya does not appear as the major Thyatian Immortal. > But I got the notion of Vanya's dwindling influence from the 3E Immortal > Pantheon in the Vaults, which states: > "and at one time her cult was quite large throughout the massive Thyatian > Empire and especially amongst its militant Heldannic Knights. Of late, it > has lost significant influence and can only be considered as a minor > cult." > I guess there has been some significant rewriting in this case also? Indeed. That's why I was puzzled about that -- I did not know about this 3E version. I suppose whoever wrote it considered the HK migration and the losses of the WotI and Crown War enough to reduce Vanya's influence that much. > Yes, now that I think about it, Vanya was portrayed as the main figure in > Thyatian pantheon in the DotE boxed set. Things have changed a lot after > that, though. The Immortal scene has been developed a lot after that, and > for example the figure of Ixion has to be considered. If I remember > correctly, he wasn't yet in the DotE? No, he wasn't there. However, there no *need* to consider Ixion as a Thyatian Immortal, except that he was in the pantheon of the original Ispan people. > But I was talking about the official pantheons of other "national > Churches". So even though worship of Vanya is certainly tolerated in > Darokin, it would not be included in the official pantheon. Of course not. Vanya would not be especially popular outside Thyatis, except in Thyatian colonies (including former colonies such as Karameikos). > The idea that the whole Order of Griffon is built on the cult of Vanya is > intiguing: the politics of Karameikan church would revolve around > different interpretations of the deity, emphasis on different aspects of > her being. Halaran would emphasise "Law and Order", the attitude of the > invader who wants to stabilise the realm. His daughter, the Griffin Knight > Aleena, would emphasise Vanya's "chivalric" aspects of fighting the good > fight and standing firm in the face of adversity. Of course. They do not need to be specialist priests of Vanya (or in general, to be followers of Vanya alone), but they might well consider her foremost among the Immortals of the CoK pantheon. > Kelven has always sounded like an unreligious character. He is a follower > of the church, but in a politican kind of way. He'll follow the > interpretation that suits him. Of course, he does not seem very pious -- yet he is a powerful cleric, and quite strict in his militant attitude. In a sense, he's quite similar to the average HK, except that he is less fanatical. > Oops! A question before I forget it: I've been reading a lot about canon > Immortals in the last few weeks. I always thought that Cretia and Loki > were the same Immortal. I have a vague feeling that I even read such a > suggestion somewere. But now I couldn't find it anywhere, they are frimly > stated to be different deities in WotI Codex for example. Did I just dream > this up? I think it might have been WotI, since there the other Ethengar spirits were identified with Immortals (Ixion and Terra, specifically). GP ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 21:39:23 +0100 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: Vanya --- Giampaolo Agosta > Of course. In Giulio's version, an greater > importance is given to Ixion, > that's why there Vanya does not appear as the major > Thyatian Immortal. IMC, Ixion is considered an important immortal in the Thyatian pantheon, although Khoronus is the official leader. Vanya however, is the most popular immortal, and her cult is the dominant one, even if she is not considered the "official leader". > Of course not. Vanya would not be especially popular > outside Thyatis, > except in Thyatian colonies (including former > colonies such as Karameikos). To use another example from my campaign; The Thyatian religion, is very similar to the faiths found in Darokin, Karameikos and to some extent Heldann (The Order), Minrothad and Ierendi. So these countries follow more or less the same immortals, though they may put emphasis on different immortals. The Immortals reveered in all of these countries include all of the major immortals from WotI that are _not_ associated specifically with other cultures (Norse, Alphatian, Ylarii etc). Order of the Griffon: > Of course. They do not need to be specialist priests > of Vanya (or in > general, to be followers of Vanya alone), but they > might well consider > her foremost among the Immortals of the CoK > pantheon. I agree with this. In 3E terms IMO, Vanya should probably be considered LN. She should definately be the patron of the Order of the Griffon and the main patron of the ideal of Chivalry, as I don't see any other contenders for that position. > Of course, he does not seem very pious -- yet he is > a powerful cleric, > and quite strict in his militant attitude. In a > sense, he's quite > similar to the average HK, except that he is less > fanatical. I hadn't really thought about who Kelvin's patron would be, but I agree that it would make sense that he is a follower of Vanya. > > Oops! A question before I forget it: I've been > reading a lot about canon > > Immortals in the last few weeks. I always thought > that Cretia and Loki > > were the same Immortal. I have a vague feeling > that I even read such a > > suggestion somewere. But now I couldn't find it > anywhere, they are frimly > > stated to be different deities in WotI Codex for > example. Did I just dream > > this up? > I think it might have been WotI, since there the > other Ethengar spirits > were identified with Immortals (Ixion and Terra, > specifically). Tubak and Yamunga are speficially identified as Ixion and Terra as you point out, yet Cretia is listed separately from Loki. I think it would have made sense to have the two be the same immortal, though Cretia may be based on some Mongolian deity that I am not familiar with, that would make this connection unsuitable... Håvard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:45:34 -0500 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Magical Evolution Any suggestions for this early mechanic to start on? Early Magic Magic is largely in-efficient. Spells take greater concentration, longer casting times, and usually take more levels to cast (1st level spells might be 2nd or 3rd level with no bonuses from being higher level). 4th, 5th, and 6th level spells may need big components, alignments of the stars, spells bound to certain natural/created monoliths, et. 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells are not possible. Spells are memorized by rote, there is no text to read or memorize. Spell casters cannot learn more spells than they can cast. Many taboos bind magic to user. Shaman Magic Magic is still in-efficient. 4-6th level spells still need large components or enchanted into complicated crafts like gri-gri, cauldrons, spirit sticks, or prayer beads. 7th and higher are still non-existent or extremely rare and need several mages to cast. Spells are scribed on bone, animal skin, clay tablets or walls and tombs. Magical Awakening Magic starts to be learned and experimented, becoming more efficient, but not like modern day magic. Large components start to fade to smaller items or crafts. Writing experiments down in tomes begins advent of learning higher levels. 7th and higher are just beginning to take shape with very learned mages. Taboos begin to disappear as well. Crafting Magic Efficiency of magic level is just beginning. Spells books are becoming more common. Craft items begin to form into magical items like wands, rods and staves. Mages begin to learn incantations to imbue magic into other items as well. Magic schools start to have early beginnings. Modern Magic What we have in 1000AC, OD&D Magic 3.5 With the feats and schools of magic learned from universities, including Spell Points/Mana. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 11 Nov 2004 to 12 Nov 2004 (#2004-246) ****************************************************************