Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 1 Jan 2004 to 2 Jan 2004 (#2004-3) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 03/01/2004, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 3 messages totalling 207 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Extended Northmen Pantheon ver. 1.5 (3) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 20:12:47 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Extended Northmen Pantheon ver. 1.5 > "Francisco V. Navarro V" wrote: I like this a lot. Really fleshes out the Northmen pantheon. Just a few comments/suggestions: > Modern legends say that in a dark cave atop a high and rocky peak in Norwold sit the >Norns (or at least their mortal avatars), where the locals known them as the Crones of >Crystykk. The Crones names are given as Mequisa (Lawful), Bethidia (Neutral), and Chasandri (Chaotic), in CM1. They are also listed as actually being Immortals in one of the modules (M2: Vengeance of Alphaks, maybe? Can't find it at the moment). I prefer your idea of them being avatars of a couple of other Immortals, though. > By tradition, the Norns are known as Skuld (Khoronus), Keeper of the Unchanging >History, Patroness of the Past In the Master DM's book, and later in the (gold box) Immortals' set, Skuld is given as the Creator of Ortnit's Lance of Doom, and is an Entropic Immortal. Not a big deal (since the gold box has been ignored in a lot of ways post-Wrath; and the artifacts from the MDM's book aren't strictly Mystara-canon), but I just thought I'd point that out. > Baldur, Patron of Rebirth and Renewal. (Razud) In Norse mythology, IIRC, Baldur is Forseti's father. Perhaps Razud was Forsetta's patron, in Mystaran Mythology? > 1.. The first seven Immortals are canon, thus not discussed further. > (Forsetta is mentioned in Wrath of the Immortals with a reference to X3 > Curse of Xanathon. The other Immortals were inspired by Deities & Demigods, > both the 1st edition and the 3rd edition. Forsetta is first mentioned in X3: Curse of Xanathon. A priest of his (Eric of Forsett) is a major player in the module (providing hints to the PCs), and a temple of his stands in the town of Rhoona. He is also mentioned in X13: Crown of Ancient Glory, and it is "revealed" there that the High Kings of Vestland are crowned at Ruthin Abbey, a Forsettan church (and crowned by the high priest of Forsetta). An ancient stonehenge structure in the north of Vestland is also said to have been a gift of Forsetta, IIRC. Similarly, there is a temple to the "Spuming Nooga" (Protius) located in the town of Rhoona. The Spuming Nooga should be added to your list, probably as a recent (outsider?) immortal. Both are listed as two of the major gods of Vestland (but both temples were erected only 'decades' ago- so probably c. 950 AC or so, depending on the date which X13 is set). Here's what X3 says about them: "The temple of the Lawful order of Forsetta is the oldest, and most citizens are members of this faith. The basic tenets include a belief in the authority of the Duke and the conviction that good deeds done throughout a person's life will result in great rewards after death. "The Temple of the Spuming Nooga is the home of a neutral order, comprised mostly of fishermen and sailors. This faith is a less restrictive one, believing that a person must strive against the circumstances of his life to make the best of a short existence." The Spuming Nooga (I'd say) is probably a local Vestlander faith, and may or may not be shared by Ostlanders, Heldanners, Norsemen (from Norwold) or Soderfjorders. Another thought- have you considered adding Wayland (in any of his various guises- Wayland Smith/Volund Tolundmeier/Weiland) into the Northmen pantheon, as a patron of blacksmiths and builders? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 23:29:22 -0600 From: Eric Anondson Subject: Re: Extended Northmen Pantheon ver. 1.5 > I've edited my work and incorporated the comments in the changes. So > not so very long after the original version 1.0, here's a version 1.5! > (Hmmm... Seems like a familiar pattern in RPGs games, isn't it?) I've enjoyed this. It seems like a great deal of pseudo-verisimilitude could be had with trying to plot out the growth and development of such a Northman Pantheon in Mystara's history by trying to get it to "rhyme" with what is thought to be understood about the real Norse Pantheon. Such as, what did the Pantheon look like for the Skandaharians? Which deities are, and are not, recognized by the Hollow World Antalians? Which historical M-culture was the source for the M-Vanir deities, and when did that happen? Maybe during the Skandaharian people's post-Blackmoor migrations? There could be a Mystara Timeline of the Northman Pantheon! If done right, the Poetic Edda and Prose Edda would potentialy be retconned as Mystaran documents! ;) Regards, Eric Anondson ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 15:26:09 +0800 From: "Francisco V. Navarro V" Subject: Re: Extended Northmen Pantheon ver. 1.5 Hail Mystarans! Thanks for the further comments, Andrew and Eric. My own comments on the comments: 1. The Norns and the Crones of Crystykk (or as I call it, "Which is Which Witch?") After finding the referrences in CM1 (Don't ask me how I got a copy of the module!), the idea came to me that the Northmen would know these terrible witches three by the Norns names (Skuld, Urd, and Verthandi) while the Norworlders would know them by the Alphatian names (Mequisa, Bethidia, and Chasandri). Whether the Crones are mortal identities, avatars, or just powerful clerics of these Immortals of Time would be up to the DM. As with RW myths featuring triple-goddesses, sometimes there are many versions of the same trinity that it is unclear (to the point that it becomes moot), who is who and which is which. (RW example, the Greek triple-goddesses of the moon-earth-underworld, which could be any combination of Selene-Artemis-Hecate, Artemis-Demeter-Hecate, Artemis-Demeter-Persephone, Persephone-Demeter-Hecate. Choose your pick of the combination!) What's more important is that there are three of them, and they all work together. Whichever one is Lawful, Chaotic, or Neutral, or whichever one rules the Past, Present, or Future, is only secondary in importance. By exetnsion, it would also not be so important to know which Norn identity corresponds to which Alphatian name. This triad confusion would also work well for the three Immortals of Time involved, since Verthandi has been missing in action. The Immortals know this but mortals don't, so perhaps Khoronus and Ordana have intentionally confused the issue of "Which is which witch?" with the two interchangably playing the roles of the three. > They are also listed as actually being Immortals in one of the modules (M2: Vengeance of Alphaks, maybe? Can't find it at the moment). I prefer your idea of them being avatars of a couple of other Immortals, though. Are there other references to the Crones of Crystykk out there? In any case, what I do in my campaign, if there's something that doesn't "rhyme" with the Known World culture (such as a character name or a weird legend), I always blame it on or discount it as "some Alphatian invention" or "the Alphatian version of things"--giving the impression that since the Alphatians came to this world, they decided to rewrite history in their eyes or make things the run the way they want it. (This is a good device to introduce rumors to PCs. And with Alphatia gone and no way to confirm it, there is a more mysterious "lost continent" feel to things.) > In the Master DM's book, and later in the (gold box) Immortals' set, Skuld is given as the Creator of Ortnit's Lance of Doom, and is an Entropic Immortal. Not a big deal (since the gold box has been ignored in a lot of ways post-Wrath; and the artifacts from the MDM's book aren't strictly Mystara-canon), but I just thought I'd point that out. I agree with you on the Gold Box/Wrath of the Immortals point; it could be one of those "Alphatian legends" thing. (Can someone give the etymological or cultural origins of the name 'Ortnit' ? My reply, "It's weird, therefore it's Alphatian!") Then again, with Verthandi gone, and Khoronus and Ordana switching roles and filling in the gaps, (And it would be possible that at some point, just one of the two Immortals are playing the roles of all three avatars. Ixion does it in his triple-identity Sindhi avatars, so why not Khoronus? And then Ordana subs for him on his days off.) perhaps an Entropic Immortal did sneak in one of *her* avatars to play the Norn Skuld, and create this whole Lance of Doom artifact, with Ortnit (or as I call him, "The Alphatian with the weird name!") as some pawn in the creation. My choice of Entropic Immortal? If not Hel (who already has her finger well into the Northmen pie), then Nyx (who, like Ixion, believes her worship should be universal, but has not yet played a large hand in the Northern Realms). Thanatos could also be a candidate, since he has been known to 'pass' as an Immortal of Time (in his "Grim Reaper" persona) at least to the mortal knowledge of men. 2. Baldur and Forsetta. With the "resurrection" controversy surrounding Baldur/Razud, my idea is that Baldur is an Alphatian import from Norworld, a Northmen-ized Razud, so to speak. This would explain the controversy. This would also mean that he would arrive into the pantheon later than the "original" seven. Based on the canon sources, Forsetta has been firmly established, but Baldur is hardly mentioned. My suggestion would be that the character Baldur does indeed appear in Northmen mythology, perhaps as the father of Forsetta or just a mentor and patron, but otherwise he is not an important character, and not counted as a true Immortal--or at least one, not to be worshipped on his own. (For example, the Greeks did not really worship Deimos and Phobos, the gods of terror and horror, in their own right, but they were worshipped together with/by extension of their father Ares, the god of war.) With the influence of the Alphatians, the Norworlders are pushing the worship of Razud under the identity of Baldur, to be worshipped separately from Forsetta. 3. Spooming Nooga Ah! Here is something I missed, mainly because the Gazetteer didn't state it explicitly! If Protius is worshipped as the Spuming Nooga, could/should he still be worshipped as Njord? Or is Spooming Nooga is the Vestland variation, the more animistic worship of Protius, while the more "civilized" Heldanners and Ostlanders and Norworlders worship him under the more personified Njord. Perhaps I should come up with a version 2.0 soon... 4. Wayland I missed this one > Another thought- have you considered adding Wayland (in any of his various guises- Wayland Smith/Volund Tolundmeier/Weiland) into the Northmen pantheon, as a patron of blacksmiths and builders? Definitely a vesion 2.0 ... Kit Navarro Mystaran Mythologer ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 1 Jan 2004 to 2 Jan 2004 (#2004-3) ************************************************************