Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 2 Jan 2004 to 3 Jan 2004 (#2004-4) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 04/01/2004, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 14 messages totalling 836 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Extended Northmen Pantheon ver. 1.5 (7) 2. History of the Dwarven Race - Dwarves of the Second Age 3. Ships of the Karameikan Navy (3) 4. Timeline of Dwarven Kings 5. Extended Northmen Pantheon (2) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 00:50:24 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Extended Northmen Pantheon ver. 1.5 Here are some more comments on your most recent post about the Northmen pantheon- > Are there other references to the Crones of Crystykk out there? > From memory, they show up (first) in CM1, but they also have a cameo in CM3: Sabre River, as well as M2: Vengeance of Alphaks. I think that's it. Good point about the re-emergence of "triads" and similar deities in different cultures (the Norns/Furies, the similarities between Greek and Roman myths) in explaining the Crones versus the Norns. Hadn't considered that, though I guess I was thinking that they'd be more closely tied, given the common origins of the northmen (Antalians). > I agree with you on the Gold Box/Wrath of the Immortals point; it could be > one of those "Alphatian legends" thing. (Can someone give the etymological > or cultural origins of the name 'Ortnit' ? My reply, "It's weird, therefore > it's Alphatian!") A quick Google search gives me this: ORTNIT, or OTNIT, German hero of romance, was originally Hertnit or Hartnit, the elder of two brothers known as the Hartungs, who correspond in German mythology to the Dioscuri. His seat was at Holmgard (Novgorod), according to the Thidreks-saga (chapter 45), and he was related to the Russian saga heroes. Later on his city of Holmgard became Garda, and in ordinary German legend he ruled in Lombardy. Hartnit won his bride, a Valkyrie, by hard fighting against the giant Isungs, but was killed in a later fight by a dragon. His younger brother, Hardheri (replaced in later German legend by Wolfdietrich), avenged Ortnit by killing the dragon, and then married his brother's widow. Ortnit's wooing was corrupted by the popular interest in the crusades to an Oriental Brautfahrtsaga, bearing a very close resemblance to the French romance of Huon of Bordeaux. Both heroes receive similar assistance from Alberich (Oberon), who supplanted the Russian Ilya as Ortnit's epic father in middle tyigh German romance. Neumann maintained that the Russian Ortnit and the Lombard king were originally two different persons, and that the incoherence of the tale is due to the welding of the two legends into one. So he's of Germanic origins, which could tie in with the Norse pantheon. Alternatively, maybe he's a transplant with Hattian ties? In any case, I don't know where/if Skuld is actually mentioned in any of Ortnit's legends, outside of the Master DM's entry on artifacts. Your idea of the identity having been "stolen" by another Immortal is very intriguing, though. If I can dig out my MDM's book, and read up on what it says about the artifact, maybe I can come up with a theory about who the entropic behind "Skuld" might be. The Gold Box lists him as a Celestial 3, so seemingly lower powered (though, again, certain aspects of the Gold Box have been invalidated before, so this isn't a hard and fast rule). Your points about Baldur are well taken- maybe he and Forsetta are often allies with common cause? > Ah! Here is something I missed, mainly because the Gazetteer didn't state it > explicitly! If Protius is worshipped as the Spuming Nooga, could/should he > still be worshipped as Njord? Or is Spooming Nooga is the Vestland > variation, the more animistic worship of Protius, while the more "civilized" > Heldanners and Ostlanders and Norworlders worship him under the more > personified Njord. This is a point I hadn't even thought about. Hmm. Again, I think tying this in with Vestland's more "progressive" outlook- their more open contact with the outside world, their more metropolitan ways- might be a good place to look to explain this. I don't know why they would change the name, except that they borrowed the concept from some other culture they were in contact with, not knowing that they were still paying homage to the same Immortal. Your animistic concept could work, though. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 10:28:06 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: Extended Northmen Pantheon ver. 1.5 Great article, Kit; I was working on the same thing and have my ideas too...I'll send soon some other comment (I have developed a story regarding Ortnit's Doom Lance too), but I'll start with this: > > 3. Spooming Nooga > The Norse Pantheon features two sea-gods: Aegir and Njord. Njord is a Vanir, a kind and generous god, while Aegir is more related to the giant world, is cruel and aloof and represents the harsh side of the sea. So Aegir is more akin to Protius (and could be the Spooming Nooga), while Njord, father of Frey and Frejya, is a more kind god of the sea...maybe another old god of the Sphere of Time (to keep in with the water element) or of Thought (to stay "tuned" to Odin's & co. sphere). Now we must come up with a possible choice for Njord... Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail: 6MB di spazio gratuito, 30MB per i tuoi allegati, l'antivirus, il filtro Anti-spam http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 11:26:11 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: History of the Dwarven Race - Dwarves of the Second Age HISTORY OF THE DWARVEN RACE 2. DWARVES OF THE SECOND AGE At the time of the Rain of Fire, all dwarven colonies near Blackmoor were immediately destroyed.(1) According to the few remained chronicles, for years the dust clouds that were raised shaded the sun and made the temperature drop. The dust brought skin-affecting diseases and cancer, that fell upon the Dwarves and their neighbours. In order to flee from sure death, Dwarves begun to build homes underground, and thus developed their first skills in mining and underground engineering too. In those years, Rockhome's climate was beginning to change toward ice-age: the mountains were always covered with ice and the dwarven agricoltural skills were failing. Dwarves lost gradually contact with their neighbours, human and humanoid races became extinct, disappeared or fled from the Known World. Little use to the Dwarves were the friendship they matured with another race, the Gnomes, around 2900 BC. Gnomes are believed to be related to Dwarves, and moreover both races revered the Immortals Kagyar (whom the Gnomes also call Karl) and Garalin (whom Gnomes call Garl or Garal). In the end, after wars for survival had wiped out all the last traces of culture, only Dwarves remained, in the regions near Rockhome, apart from the Gnomes, who were settled in the area now known as Northern Reaches. The diseases continued to harass the dwarven race: even if the climate, around 2500 BC, had slowly begun to revert to normal, most children were stillborn, or bore deformities, and many Dwarves were born sterile. Around 2000 BC, only some ten-thousand Dwarves were present, and the race was facing the risk of total annihilation, of extinction. Most knowledge of their past had disappeared with their past greatness; in a desperate move to avoid ultimate oblivion, clinching to their art and their existance as the testimony of a race condemned to death, the Dwarves begun to compile extremely precise and definite genealogies of their families and clans, descriptions of their activites and history, while living their desperate lives. However, one of the six surviving Dwarven Clans, the Hrukats, got in touch with the Dark Elves. The Dark Elves had been enemies of the Dwarves in the past. They were servitors of the Father of Demons, and lived north of Rockhome. The Hrukats Clan was in charge of the fortresses in the north that had been built to repel the Dark Elves in the past. The Hrukats were proud and noble, and had always defeated the enemies of the dwarven race, defending the other Clans from the threats in the north. After the defeat of the Dark Elves, the Hrukats had remained to guard the passes of the north, waiting for an enemy that for a long time didn't show again. Four centuries after the last battle, the Dark Elves returned. After long years of decadence and desolation, the Hrukats had mostly forgotten about them and their adoration of the Father of Demons. So the Dark Elves pretended to offer a truce and an aid to the Hrukats. Although the Hrukats King expelled the Dark Elves, he secretly arranged to have some meetings to discuss the matter. The Father of Demons was an obscure divinity. According to the ancient dwarven mythology, he had fathered some of the most foul of creatures: Garm, the Devourer of the Sun; the Midgardwurm, a monstrous demonic snake; and Fenris the Wolf. Later on, the Vikings would identify the Father of Demons with Loki, although currently the dwarven clerics suggest that the Father of Demons was none other than Orcus. The Dark Elves told their necromantic arts to the Hrukats, promising the King that these arts would slow and prevent the decline of his people. The King and his counselors and closer relatives became thus, secretly, powerful necromancers. In the beginning, they used their spells to halt and then erase the diseases from the population: but Evil always corrupts who uses its powers, and in the end the Hrukats leaders became tainted by Evil, isolating the Clan from their brethren in the south. The dark arts tainted the heart and sould of the dwarven necromancers, madness spread and the cult of the Father of Demons spread too, openly. Most of the population, having been denied any contact with the other Dwarves, forced to live always in the depths of the earth, ruled by necromancers, became apathetic and indifferent, while instigators at the service of the Dark Elves spoke against Kagyar and Garalin, and told the Dwarves that their patrons were to be blamed for their condition, as they had forgotten their race and left them to suffer in the claws of Evil. Around 1900 BC, the southern Dwarves begun to see clearly what was happening, and started to plan a way to expel all Hrukats from Rockhome (2). However, given the necromantic arts of their rulers, that had halted diseases and sterility, the Hrukats counted the same number as all the other clans together.(3) Called Morkwarf ("dark dwarves") by their own breathren, the most impious among the Hrukats rulers planned an attack against their own race, allied with the Dark Elves, with whom they forged five cursed weapons, each built appositely to be used against each remaining dwarven Clan. A group of dissident Hrukats were able to discover the plot and managed to convince the other Dwarves that something dangerous was happening and that they had to move before the Morkwarf did. The Dwarves held a Council (1812 BC). Here they decided to attack immediately, before the Hrukats were ready, hoping in a spontaneous revolt among the Hrukats population. However, the intransigent nature of the dwarven race, and the malice spread by the followers of the Dark Elves (whose purpose was to destroy the whole dwarven race, like the Father of Demons wanted), had caused most of the population to actually hate and despise their southern cousins because they believed that they had been indifferent to their fate before, and now only desired to conquer and destroy them, blaming the whole Hrukats Clan for what was just the responsability of their rulers (and of their gods, moreover). The dwarven attack was extremely hard. The five Clans strangled the Hrukats in a long siege, that went on for six years. The Hrukats were suddenly abandoned by their allies, the Dark Elves, and the Morkwarf had to crush internal revolts in blood-bathes. In the end, the Dark Elves had nearly obtained their goal, as the dwarven population had nearly halved itself with the long and bloody, cruel, war, and the race was near extinction. Desperate, the Necromancer-King of the Hrukats surrendered (1806 BC). (4) Hate between the two dwarven factions was at its peak. Both had suffered terrible hardships; the life of Dwarves in the last thousand years had just been suffering and desperation. Almost bursting in tears, the Morkwarf-King of the Hrukats, the son of the Dwarf who had allied himself with the Dark Elves, shouted his wrath against the southern Dwarves, that he considered simply put jealous of the achievements of his necromantic comrades: they had relieved the Hrukats from the curse and disease of Blackmoor, from sterility, and to do so they hadn't esitated to use any means. Crippled, suffering and debilitated because of the dwarven race disease, the general of the dwarven army, Commander Tor of the Torkrest Clan, showed his plagues and his sore body to the bounded Morkwarf and proclaimed: "In no way shall the Dwarven race be consumed and tormented by the Disease of the Soul, even when this shall mean be consumed and tormented by the Disease of the Body! So, all Dwarves who stipulated the insane alliance with the Forces of Evil and the Dark Elves and the Father of Demons will not be Dwarves anymore! And their name will be removed from the Clans Cronichles. The Hrukats Clan is dead, it doesn't exist anymore. Only five Clans are left: Everast, Hurwarf, Skarrad, Syrklist and Torkrest. But you surrendered, so we will leave your people to leave our land. However, you and your batmen are sentenced to death, in the name of Kagyar and Garalin." So the survivors of the Hrukats Clan left Rockhome and moved, in shame, east to the mountains at the border between Rockhome and the lands of the Gnomes. The pride of the Dwarves of the five Clans moved the heart of Kagyar the Artisan, the Immortal who had always loved the Dwarves. Kagyar has never wanted to interfer with the lives of mortals: he is a respectful divinity, who wants to leave mortals free to choose and live their lives, according to their laws, and not as pawns of the Immortals. But in that time, the only time in the history of Mystara, Kagyar stepped in and acted, saving the Dwarves. In 1800 BC he sent them Denwarf, a Dwarf with great powers, that would guide them and save them from death. Denwarf was the First Cleric of the Dwarves. (5) He cured the Dwarves of their diseases and brought to them the secrets of the earth and fire that Kagyar and Garalin themselves had taught him. (6) DM NOTES: (1) At this time there were approximately 2 millions of Dwarves. (2) This is, again, a false memory provided by Kagyar. The ancestral lands of the Dwarves were the Northern Reaches, and most Dwarves lived on the eastern side of the Rockhome/Vestland border mountains. (3) At this time, there were about 30'000 Dwarves, 13'000 of which belonged to the Hrukats Clan. (4) At this time, there were about 8'000 Dwarves, 3'000 of which belonged to the Hrukats Clan. In fact, not all Dwarves that "disappeared" had died in the war; a group of 4'000 southern Dwarves had been preserved in stasis by Kagyar and Garalin and put to sleep in the caves of Rockhome, while the two Immortals were discussing with Ka and the Hollow World Council how to move them to the Hollow World to become the Kogolor Dwarves. (5) This could be a "false memory" of the Dwarves. Anyway, being Kagyar and Garalin so aloof and silent for so many years before, this could be a possibility to explain it. Kagyar was so "uninterfering" (à la Benekander) that he didn't even provide spells to his worshippers! (6) At this point, there should be about 5'000 Dwarves. According to GAZ6, the original Dwarves were 500, but they are way too few, in my opinion, to rise in 400 years to the metheoritic number of 125'000 Dwarves... ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail: 6MB di spazio gratuito, 30MB per i tuoi allegati, l'antivirus, il filtro Anti-spam http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 11:27:36 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Extended Northmen Pantheon ver. 1.5 la Volpe wrote: > >> 3. Spooming Nooga > > The Norse Pantheon features two sea-gods: Aegir and > Njord. Njord is a Vanir, a kind and generous god, > while Aegir is more related to the giant world, is > cruel and aloof and represents the harsh side of the > sea. So Aegir is more akin to Protius (and could be > the Spooming Nooga), while Njord, father of Frey and > Frejya, is a more kind god of the sea...maybe another > old god of the Sphere of Time (to keep in with the > water element) or of Thought (to stay "tuned" to > Odin's & co. sphere). Now we must come up with a > possible choice for Njord... Or they might be two different identities for Protius, as he has both the harsh and bountiful aspects. Or one of the two could be Gorrziok (sp?), the Sea Giant Immortal, or one of the other, probably Aegir, since he seems to be related to distructive aspects of the sea. Note that basically Protius is a near-monopolist of the "Sea" portfolio, much like Ixion with the "Sun" or Odin with the "Sky" or Khoronus with the "Time" portfolio. In Protius case, the only other Sea power in the Sphere of Time is Calitha Starbrow, who focuses on sea travel and elves. This links to another hypothesis I'm playing with, that major Immortal are able to preserve their power base within their sphere by establishing a monopoly on an important domain. If you look at the portfolios of the Ruling Hierarchs, you will see that few or no other Immortals have those items in their portfolio, and the few who do often belong to other spheres -- e.g., the "Sky" portfolio is usually held by Odin, but when he is not present, it falls to Immortals of spheres other than the Sphere of Thought, such as Takhati, The Great One, or Gorm. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 02:33:47 -0800 From: Brendan Corliss Subject: Ships of the Karameikan Navy So here's a fun little diversion for anyone who's interested: According to GAZ1, the 3rd div. (aka Royal Navy) of the Karameikan Military consists of 8 ships under the command of Admiral Hyraksos. Recently, I've been going thru and hyper detailing as much of Karameikos as I can. So I figure I should probably have names for each of these ships. The problem is, I'm no good at it. I think way too linear to come up with any good names for them. Soooooo, anyone out there have any suggestions? I've included the names of the NPC's that I came up with for the different ships; maybe it will help spark some ideas... The Royal Navy: Admiral - Lucius Hyraksos Ship 1 Captain - Leonardo Dexius Lieutenant - Sebastian Numerius Ship 2 Captain - Sofia Karameikos (Cousin of Stefan Karameikos) Lieutenant - Maximillian Wagner Ship 3 Captain - Benedicta Oxinos Lieutenant - Hana Molodin Ship 4 Captain - Patrizio Rufius Lieutenant - Salvatore Octavius Ship 5 Captain - Gregorio Paladino Lieutenant - Makarios Lambrinos Ship 6 Captain - Andreas Bruttius Lieutenant - Maximus Clerides Ship 7 Captain - Klaus von Schroeder Lieutenant - Aleksei Rufius Ship 8 Captain - Corrado Galerius Lieutenant - Gerhard Cassius -Brendan Corliss Corliss Enterprises, Ltd. Darokin City AKA Damon Alexander Brown ===== May all your endeavors be Gold! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 12:25:46 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Timeline of Dwarven Kings KINGS OF THE DENWARF OF DENGAR 1. Denwarf I (1800-1400 BC) Everast (I) 2. Everast I (1400-1378 BC) 3. Everast II (1378-1346 BC) 4. Everast III (1346-1309 BC) 5. Everast IV (1309-1245 BC) 6. Everast V (1245-1206 BC) 7. Everast VI (1206-1161 BC) Torkrest (I) 8. Thoric I (1161-1119 BC) 9. Blystar I (1119-1062 BC) 10. Blystar II (1062-1004 BC) 11. Blystar III (1004-961 BC) 12. Blystar IV (961-920 BC) 13. Blystar V (920-881 BC) 14. Blystar VI (881-823 BC) 15. Blystar VII (823-811 BC) 16. Blystats I (811-730 BC) Buhrod-hrodar 17. Blystar VIII (730-707 BC) 18. Blystats II (697-661 BC) 19. Blystar IX (661-600 BC) Hurwarf 20. Thoric II (600-563 BC) 21. Thoric III (563-506 BC) Torkrest (II) 22. Blystats III Sardal (506-471 BC) 23. Blystar X (471-438 BC) Syrklist (I) 24. Daroban I (438-379 BC) 25. Daroban II (379-310 BC) 26. Daroban III (310-256 BC) Torkrest (II) 27. Sardal II (256-201 BC) 28. Sardal III (201-156 BC) 29. Blystar XI (156-123 BC) 30. Bollo (123-98 BC) Time of the Senate 31. Everast VII (98-54 BC) 32. Hurgon Skarrad (54-16 BC) 33. Everast VIII (16 BC- AC 36) 34. Denwarfin Buhrodar (AC 36-89) Everast (II) 35. Everast IX (89-128) 36. Everast X (128-162) 37. Everast XI (162-201) 38. Everast XII (201-276) Syrklist (II) 39. Daroban IV (Kuric son of Korinn) (276-326) 40. Daroban V (Doric son of Kuric) (316-370) 41. Styrklint I (Korinn son of Doric) (370-414) 42. Thrais I (Thrais daughter of Korinn) (414-479) 43. Daroban VI (Doric son of Thrais) (479-535) 44. Syrklis I (Nais daughter of Doric) (535-611) 45. Daroban VII (Doric son of Nais) (611-666) 46. Thrais II (Thrais daughter of Doric) (666-726) 47. Syrklis II (Nais daughter of Thrais)(726-797) 48. Styrklint II (Korinn son of Nais)(797-846) Everast (III) 49. Everast XIII (Barin son of Bofin)(846-904) 50. Everast XIV (Bofin son of Barin) (904-960) 51. Everast XV (Bifin son of Bofin) (960-1011) 52. Everast XVI (Bofin son of Bifin) (1011-) Everast = 16 kings Torkrest = 15 kings Syrklist = 13 kings Buhrodar = 4 kings Hurwarf = 2 kings Skarrad = 1 king Note: The Buhrod-hrodar family was a part of Clan Torkrest that later evolved into the Clan Buhrodar (see GAZ6 for more informations in this regard). The Buhrod-hrodar kings are considered Buhrodar Kings, and not Torkrest ones, by the Dwarven Chronicles and by all Clans, with the noteworthy exception of the Torkrest themselves. ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail: 6MB di spazio gratuito, 30MB per i tuoi allegati, l'antivirus, il filtro Anti-spam http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 12:33:00 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: Extended Northmen Pantheon ver. 1.5 Ok, I like the idea that Protius monopolizes everything, and the other big ones do too. I personally like also the idea that most of these Immortals are so ancient and powerful and so big guys etc. that they have multiple identities (and according to my Cosmology they easily have multiple Immortal identities). Anyway, even without pushing things so far, I like Protius being both Njord and Aegir, while Nooga could be Gorrziok (or the Spooming Nooga could be an attribute of Njord or Aegir, just like those Savage Coast identities like "the Judge", etc., so we could have "Njord, the Spooming Nooga", or something like that). Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail: 6MB di spazio gratuito, 30MB per i tuoi allegati, l'antivirus, il filtro Anti-spam http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 05:07:48 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Ships of the Karameikan Navy Brendan Corliss wrote: > According to GAZ1, the 3rd div. (aka Royal Navy) of > the Karameikan Military consists of 8 ships under the > command of Admiral Hyraksos. > > Soooooo, anyone out there have any suggestions? I've > included the names of the NPC's that I came up with > for the different ships; maybe it will help spark some > ideas... A possible starting point for you would be the ship tokens from the Gaz4: Kingdom of Ierendi gazetteer. The sheet of tokens has several Karameikan ships listed there. Here's what it has: Small Galleys Fyodorski Sergeiev Ilyana Ivanovitch Large Galleys Ecaterina Anyvitch War Galleys Dmitrov Small Sailing Ship Yakovski Stefanov Ierenescu Large Sailing Ship Tatiana Hmm... on second thought, maybe not too helpful. Those names all sound Traladaran, and while I could see a couple of Traladaran named vessels in the Karameikan navy, not that many. There are several Thyatian ship names given in the tokens as well, but they're all proper names as well (Stefan II, St. Valen, Nicomede, etc.). So you could always just grab Thyatian proper names and give them to the vessels if you want... maybe not quite as enjoyable, though. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 05:34:18 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Extended Northmen Pantheon The Vanir/Aesir explanation for a possible Njord/Spuming Nooga difference was a good idea, though I also like the suggestion that 'Spuming Nooga' is merely an epithet attached to Njord's name. In any case, I've been thinking that the whole Vanir/Aesir thing could be an angle to work with as well- there wasn't a huge difference made of the two sorts of gods in Norse myth (that I've seen, though I'm hardly an expert in the field), but it might be interesting to play it up more in the Mystaran version of the Nordic pantheon. Perhaps the Vanir Immortals represent a "newer" and less traditional (possibly foreign) influence, or else a second pantheon of Immortals trying to finesse their way into power among the northmen? Maybe that's where the Alphatian influence comes from? Anyway, just some more thoughts. Enjoying this thread. :) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 17:00:01 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Extended Northmen Pantheon Andrew Theisen wrote: > In any case, I've been thinking that the whole Vanir/Aesir thing > could be an angle to work with as well- there wasn't a huge > difference made of the two sorts of gods in Norse myth (that I've > seen, though I'm hardly an expert in the field), The Vanir were basically nature (fertility) gods, while the Aesir were not. Njordr, Frey and Freyja were Vani, IIRC, and were sent to Asgard as hostages after an Aesir-Vanir war. The Asi sent three of them to Vanaheim as well, though they were minor characters, IIRC. > but it might be > interesting to play it up more in the Mystaran version of the > Nordic pantheon. Perhaps the Vanir Immortals represent a "newer" > and less traditional (possibly foreign) influence, or else a second > pantheon of Immortals trying to finesse their way into power among > the northmen? Maybe that's where the Alphatian influence comes > from? Considering that Frey and Freyja should be Vanir, I wouldn't think so. Still, in Mystara Frey and Freyja are much different from the RW gods: in Mystara they're war gods, while in the RW they are fertility/wealth gods, so they don't really fit the Vanir prototype. Vanir should be Immortals of Matter or Time, probably, as they have an interest in earth and water. It is also possible that "Vanir" just means "Immortal from Matter or Time" and Aesir "Immortal from Energy and Thought"... -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 15:06:58 -0500 From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: Extended Northmen Pantheon ver. 1.5 Not sure which Immortal really fits best, but the Spuming Nooga was depicted in X3 as a spouting whale, if that's any help. ----- Original Message ----- From: "la Volpe" To: Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 6:33 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Extended Northmen Pantheon ver. 1.5 > Ok, I like the idea that Protius monopolizes > everything, and the other big ones do too. I > personally like also the idea that most of these > Immortals are so ancient and powerful and so big guys > etc. that they have multiple identities (and according > to my Cosmology they easily have multiple Immortal > identities). Anyway, even without pushing things so > far, I like Protius being both Njord and Aegir, while > Nooga could be Gorrziok (or the Spooming Nooga could > be an attribute of Njord or Aegir, just like those > Savage Coast identities like "the Judge", etc., so we > could have "Njord, the Spooming Nooga", or something > like that). > > Iulius Sergius Scaevola > Captain of the XXth Cohort > Port Lucinius, Thyatis > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail: 6MB di spazio gratuito, 30MB per i tuoi allegati, l'antivirus, il filtro Anti-spam > http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.mail.yahoo.com/ > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 15:28:50 -0500 From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: Extended Northmen Pantheon ver. 1.5 > 1. The Norns and the Crones of Crystykk (or as I call it, "Which is Which > Witch?") > > They are also listed as actually being Immortals in one of the modules > (M2: Vengeance of Alphaks, maybe? Can't find it at the moment). I prefer > your idea of them being avatars of a couple of other Immortals, though. > > Are there other references to the Crones of Crystykk out there? CM3 "Sabre River" The crones send the same dream to the PCs toward the start of the adventure with hints as to what lies ahead. They ride by on the back of a giant rabbit. They are described as "mysterious figures who send messages to others in the form of dreams." Later in the adventure, they physically appear to the PCs before they enter the Tower of Terror, Flamesmouth Mt. They provide more cryptic info to the PCs, with additional details in exchange for treasure or service. M2 "The Crones of Crystykk are a trio of immortals, one of each alignment, who watch the affairs of Norwold through a magical mirror. They often give advice and portents, for a price, to those who make the journey to their isolated cave." PCs are sent dreams hinting at the coming war. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 15:20:45 -0600 From: Eric Anondson Subject: Re: Extended Northmen Pantheon ver. 1.5 > Not sure which Immortal really fits best, but the Spuming Nooga was > depicted in X3 as a spouting whale, if that's any help. It certainly doesn't need an Immortal affiliated with it, does it? It sounds like a Midgard Serpent/Leviathan type entity. Regards, Eric Anondson ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 22:46:10 -0600 From: Pat Taylor Subject: Ships of the Karameikan Navy Some ideas: Maybe for the Smaller vessels the fiefs: Kelvin Halag Penhaligon Luln Threshold Maybe in honor of the church or traditional immortals Bronze Star The Gryphon Pride of Halav or the land regions Radlebb Cruth Achelos hope these help _________________________________________________________________ Take advantage of our limited-time introductory offer for dial-up Internet access. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 2 Jan 2004 to 3 Jan 2004 (#2004-4) ************************************************************