Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 16 Feb 2004 to 17 Feb 2004 (#2004-44) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 18/02/2004, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 21 messages totalling 920 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Ancient religions of Mystara (10) 2. reaching beyond immortality 3. History of the Neathar pantheon 4. Unsubscribe (2) 5. demogorgon 6. Conventions (funny... I hope) 7. "Slumber" Jacks and physicists (WAS: "WE can make a difference") 8. New Campaign 9. Elves, elves, everywhere elves! 10. WotI "intermission", levels, Benekander... (2) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:22:03 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Ancient religions of Mystara la Volpe wrote: >> Currently, the Littonians worship elements of the >> Norse pantheon, as well >> as Ordana, Protius, and others. The Norse influence >> derives from their long >> association with the Antalians, and possibly dates >> back to the Skandaharians, too > > The Valemen are the original > population of northern Norwold; the Antalians that > conquered the southern Valemen took those physical > traits and moved a lot of time later south, to occupy > Heldann and the Northern Reaches. Ok, then we have: Proto-Oltecs/Skotharians: Ixion, Ka. +--->Afridi: Zugzul +--->Peshwah: Ixion, ? +--->Valoin: Ixion, Ka, Protius +--->Oltecs: Ixion, Ka The Valoin evolve into the Valemen, who migrate through Skhotar first and then to Norwold. At this point, the influence of Ixion and Ka is greatly reduced, Protius is the most important patron. Probably, Odin and Ordana are added to the pantheon during these migrations (contacts with woodland creatures or elves and Skandaharians). Valemen: Protius, Ordana, Odin (Ixion? Ka?) Later, due to the association with the Antalian, we have: Littonians: Odin, Thor, Protius, Ordana, Frey, Freyja. They may have known several entropics during their history, beginning with Thanatos, and then Hel and/or Loki. Bye, GP -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:31:28 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Ancient religions of Mystara Havard Faanes wrote: > > I also like the idea of Demogorgon having been > sponsored as a last act by the fading Frog. This > explaining why Demogorgon has been bringing back many > of the Frog's creatures in the post-Blackmoor ages... Yes. I can't remember when this was discussed, but I too found it a good idea. Anyway, I don't think there's a set date for Demogorgon's ascension. BTW, if one uses AD&D cosmology, then having Demogorgon (and others who appear as both Immortals and gods) appear during/immediately after the GRoF makes it much easier to explain how these powers could infiltrate the Immortals, by pretending to have been just recently sponsored by some dead Immortal. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:13:42 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Ancient religions of Mystara Havard Faanes wrote: > Good stuff Giampaolo! > > I'm looking forward to seeing more of this stuff. Thanks. I'll have a couple more ideas on the history of the immortals, which I'll be posting soon. > IMO I don't think we should be too afraid of changing > dates for the creation of various immortals, Not that we have too many dates of creation anyway. > Im not arguiung that we should toss everything aside, > but like someone else suggested, having Demogorgon > drop by at an earlier stage sounds good. Also, Orcus > should be around. I'm not so sure about Orcus: apparently, on Mystara, he's only involved with Devil Swine cults. He might have existed on other worlds, of course, even before lycanthropy was created on Mystara. > I also agree with Andrew that Thanatos should be > noted. Of course. As I said, I didn't mention many of the entropics, because they're more feared/reviled than worshipped (there are exceptions, like Nyx or Atzanteotl). > IMO he, Ixion and Odin, aswell as Khoronus > would be present in most religions at any time of > history... Khoronus only appears later, during Blackmoor. IMO, he was chosen by Verthandi to replace him (her?), but his cult is not as popular, at least among the Antalians. AFAIK, he isn't especially popular anywhere, though he does have some following in the more advanced civilizations (Thyatis, Darokin, Alphatia, Ochalea) and in Sind: "Time" isn't per se a great concern to many people, unless it is linked to something more practical -- e.g., weather, and of course there are other Immortals more focused on those items. In the past, he's been very active in Taymora (my version, at least) and Milenia (if we make him the M-Chronos). Other cults of Khoronus of note? -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:28:27 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Harri_M=E4ki?= Subject: Re: Ancient religions of Mystara Giampaolo Agosta kirjoitti 17.02.2004 kello 10:31: > Havard Faanes wrote: > =20 > > > > I also like the idea of Demogorgon having been > > sponsored as a last act by the fading Frog. This > > explaining why Demogorgon has been bringing back many > > of the Frog's creatures in the post-Blackmoor ages... > Yes. I can't remember when this was discussed, but I too found it a > good > idea. Anyway, I don't think there's a set date for Demogorgon's > ascension. > =20 I think there was something about Demogorgon in Sharon's Hollow Moon files. Harri .............................................................. MTV3 Laajakaista - Hauskemman el=E4m=E4n puolesta. http://www.mtv3.fi/liittyma/hankinta/laajakaista/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 12:17:49 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: Ancient religions of Mystara > BTW, if one uses AD&D cosmology, then having > Demogorgon (and others who > appear as both Immortals and gods) appear > during/immediately after the > GRoF makes it much easier to explain how these > powers could infiltrate > the Immortals, by pretending to have been just > recently sponsored by > some dead Immortal. > -- Well, it could also be that those demon-gods have been forced, by the Nature of the Mystaraverse, to send some mortal avatars to Mystara and then have them to be sponsored by some Entropic Immortals to gain a foothold in theis Multiverse too. So those Demon-Immortals are in fact the identity, in this Multiverse, of some AD&D Gods. This could be possible also for other AD&D Gods (and vice-versa, why not?), like the Northern Reaches Pantheon, maybe brought in by Odin to counter the influence of Demons. Odin, instead, could be SO old, that he predates the division of the "Cosmos" (intended as the ensemble of all universes and multiverses and dimensions) into various Multiverses (and this explains why he is present both in Mystara Multiverse and AD&D Multiverse). The same could apply to Thanatos, Ixion, Hel and Protius (any AD&D equivalents that come to mind?). If this is true, then Demogorgon and Orcus were sponsored by Thanatos, and maybe those two super-demons thought they were smart to "cheat" an Immortal to sponsor them...while in truth, Thanatos is the name used by a major evil god of AD&D cosmology on Mystara (maybe an enemy of those two...anybody has any idea?). Ok, it's a little complicated, but it fits with MY cosmology...he he he he he he he...8-) Giulio ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail: 6MB di spazio gratuito, 30MB per i tuoi allegati, l'antivirus, il filtro Anti-spam http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 03:18:52 -0800 From: Herve Musseau Subject: reaching beyond immortality The Immortals, once they have achieved a high level of power within their spheres (generally Hierarch), often wonder whether there is something beyond Immortality, and like a mortal questing to join the ranks of the Immortals they may quest to join the ranks of yet superior beings that they call the Old Ones. Where the mortals know that the Immortals exist, and can discover clues at higher levels as to how to become one themselves, the Immortals are not even certain that the Old Ones exist, or that it is possible for them to become an Old One, and the paths to be followed are only guesswork on their part. Some Hierarchs follow those tentative paths; some dismiss the Old Ones as a myth; some believe that the process of becoming an Old One is not one of paths but something else as alien to them as the paths of Immortality are to mortals. Matter (Path of the Polymath): The Immortal must reincarnate as a mortal and gain Immortality again in the other Spheres. It is unclear whether this would also include the Sphere of Entropy. The Immortal must become Reigning Hierach in each sphere thus reached. Time (Path of the Dynast): The Immortal must create His or Her dynasty of Immortals, help it survive major crises, and maybe end it when completing the path. It is believed that Khoronus is following this path (in which case the rumor that he sponsored himself might be true). Energy (Path of the Parangon): The Immortal must be acknowledged by His or Her peers as their undisputed superior. It is unclear whether that would include only Immortals of the same sphere, or all Immortals. The Immortal must also sponsor a certain number of Immortals. Ixion is probably pursuing that path, which would explain his conflict with Rad. Thought (Path of the Epic Hero): The Immortal must successfully undertake an epic quest (it is unclear whether it must have to do with the Vortex Dimension or might be more generic) for which the Immortal will be reknowned. It is guessed that the Immortal may also have to destroy an Entropic Immortal. Entropy (Path of the Fiend): The Immortal must separately betray (supposed to be at least a Major Stroke) an Immortal of each other sphere (or maybe of each sphere). The Immortal must also gain Immortality in the Sphere of Entropy using the three other paths. Entropy (Path of the Conqueror): The Immortal must destroy or subvert the following of a higher-level Immortal of another sphere, then renounce Immortality and abandon all of His or Her followers. The former Immortal must then regain Immortality (it is uncertain whether the path or even the sphere matters) and regain the worship of the most or all the followers (may possibly include their descendants, or their cultural descendants) abandoned earlier. Entropy (Path of the Dungeon Keeper): The Immortal must create a plane that stands up to the attacks of other Immortals for at least a millenium and destroy a certain number of Immortals sent to destroy the plane, but each Immortal must be of higher level than the last to count. Entropy (Path of the Archvillain): It is unknown what the Immortal must do in that path. -- ideas and comments welcome ===== ___________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:13:03 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: History of the Neathar pantheon Hi all, here is my version of the history of the Neathar/Antalian pantheon. I'm basing this discussion on a parallel with RW studies that compare the religions of different Indo-Europeans cultures, and especially on the works of G. Dumezil (http://www.academie-francaise.fr/immortels/base/academiciens/fiche.asp?param=658 for those who read French). The basic hypothesis is that the Neathar pantheons closely matches the common features of the RW Indo-European religions, described according to the trifunctional model by Dumezil. In this model, there are three main divine "functions", corresponding to the three social classes (warriors, priests/magicians/rulers, producers of wealth). Table 1 here shows a grouping of portfolios along these lines (there are simplifications with respect to the RW, of course). Table 1: The Three Functions 1. Knowledge, Rulership (a) Kingship, Wisdom, Wizardry (and Trickery) (b) Law, Order, Justice, Kin/Race 2. Fighters, War (a) Strategy, Battles, Lightning (b) Combat, Duelling, Thunder 3. Protection, Service (a) Healing, Growth, Birth, Protection (b) Wealth, Crafts, Trade In RW, figures like Odin, Tyr, Zeus, Varuna and Mithra fall in the first function (and, BTW, Odin would be in 1a while Tyr would cover function 1b). Thor and Indra would cover the second function, and Frey, Njordr and the Dioskouroi would fall in the third. I've divided each function in two subfunctions. The main, better known people of True Neathar origin are: the Ranax of Robrenn, the Eusdrians, the Heldanners, the Thyatians/Espa and the Traladarans/Milenians. However, the Traladaran pantheon is too recent, and gives little insight on the Neathar religion, so I'm not considering it now. Tables 2 and 3 show the main Immortals in those pantheons, by function. Table 2: Pantheons: Eusdrian, Antalian and Robrenn Function Eusdrian Antalian Robrenn 1a Viuden, Eirys Odin Leug 1b Tiuz Forsetta Breig 2a Fredar, Fredara Odin Taranos 2b Donar Thor, Skuld Tuatis, Arduinna 3a Eirys, Fredar, Fredara Frey, Freyja Belnos, Cernuinn, Breig 3b Kagyar Volund Belsamas, Belnos We can try to remove external influencs (e.g., the elven Immortals in Eusdria), to obtain what would have been the Antalian and Dunharian pantheon): Odin for the first function (notice the lack of 1b, it is IMO quite relevant), Thor (with Odin) for the second, and Frey and Freyja for the third. Note that all but Odin where not in the Skandaharian pantheon, since they did not exist at the time! Table 3: Pantheons: Espa and Thyatian Function Espa Thyatian 1a Ixion Ixion, Odin (and maybe Khoronus) 1b Inquisitor, Judge Tarastia 2a Inquisitor, General Vanya, (Halav, Korotiku) 2b General, Milan Thor, (Diulanna) 3a Valerias, Milan Valerias, (Koryis) 3b Ambassador, Ixion Asterius, (Kagyar, Protius) If we consider that many Thyatian Immortals are due to recent influences (those in parentheses), we may use the Espa pantheon to get an idea of the "native" Thyatian pantheon -- probably Ixion, Tarastia, Vanya, Thor, Valerias and perhaps Asterius or Protius. However, Vanya and Tarastia are certainly "recent" additions, probably both where added to the pantheon after the proto-Thyatians were moved to Davania. Also, Ixion is not a native Neathar Immortal -- he's not in the Dunharian nor Antalian pantheons. These Immortals replaced others, IMO, who either died or moved elsewhere. Tarastia: this Immortal fill a 1b slot, and the best candidate here as an Immortal who left is certainly Verthandi. It can be supposed that Verthandi was the actual 1b Immortal in the Skandaharian pantheon, and when he left Khoronus was not strong enough to take over all of his portfolio -- he limited himself to the "Time" aspect, and his place was taken by others. Vanya: note that in many Antalian pantheons, Odin covers both the 1a and 2a roles. I think he originally covered 2a in proto-Thyatian pantheons as well. Then Vanya took over, as she was very active -- she still seems intent on a campaign against the Norse pantheon, actually). Ixion: Ixion has a Milenian name, and Milenians could certainly have inherited his worship from Traldar, who got it from the Nithians, who in turn where half-Oltec. I think Milenians then trasmitted Ixion's cult to the Thyatians. Ixion already had powerful allies in the pantheon (Valerias, perhaps Asterius), so it wasn't too difficult for him to take over, in time, 1a function from Odin (also, Odin was probably more interested in other nations). I think Asterius was worshipped in Taymora, and the Neathar in modern Thyatis where contacted by Taymoran priest-merchants of Asterius. Then, Asterius took over part of the 3b portfolio, and helped pave the way for Ixion. Valerias, on the other hand, might have been a very ancient member of the pantheon -- she isn't a patron of the Oltecs or Tanagoro, and she's an ancient Hierarch. She also has a good reason for not appearing in the modern Antalian/Dunharian pantheons -- Odin probably tossed her out when she helped Ixion's takeover in Thyatis. Thor, Frey, Freyja: these Antalian Immortals where probably allied with Odin, who brought them in the Antalian pantheon to strengthen his position when he saw that Verthandi's heir, Khoronus, was not yet strong enough to defend his portfolio. Probably, in the old pantheon, only Valerias, Odin and Verthandi were present, each covering one entire function. It was Odin's idea to create subfunctions for less powerful Immortals to hold, thus strengthening his overall control over the pantheon. Since Odin also covers part of the second function, Valerias only appears as a third function Immortal, and Verthandi was certainly a first function Immortal, I'd say that the original pantheon had Odin covering the role of war-leader. He then took over Verthandi's function, by adding to his portfolio the areas of knowledge, rulership and wisdom (this might be described in some myth, like the RW Odin's acquisition of wisdom and knowledge by self-hanging and by trading one eye in exchange for wisdom). Protius: I think this one is another relatively recent addition: Protius is not very interested in land-dwellers, so it is likely that he only recently (but still before 1AC) took interest in the Thyatians and/or the Antalians. I'd say he appeared in the times immediately after the fall of Taymora, perhaps in the Nithian pantheon, and then in the Antalian and Traldar pantheons. The Thyatians received him from their contacts with Nithians and Milenians. Conclusion: I think the original Neathar pantheon included: 1) Verthandi, patron of time, law, rulership, perhaps also magic (especially divination) 2) Odin, patron of war, strategy and lightning 3) Valerias (Frigga?), patroness of fertility and defender of the common people (she has this kind of portfolio as well in Thyatis!) -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:39:12 +0800 From: Matthew Pittard Subject: Unsubscribe --=======3A5C32DB======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-730878C8; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Unsubscribe --=======3A5C32DB======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-730878C8 Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.588 / Virus Database: 372 - Release Date: 13/02/2004 --=======3A5C32DB=======-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:30:56 -0500 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Ancient religions of Mystara > > From: Giampaolo Agosta > 2) Expansion: Protius is added due to interaction with the Sea People, > Korotiku is added from contacts with the Tanagoro. Protius has been very hands off as an immortal. He originally was a whale that achieved immortality. A seafaring culture of Neathar would have been practicing whaling, so to them Protius might have personified a negative impact to their culture, and maybe even forced them back away from the water's edge. Then again, Protius has always been very hands off. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:48:33 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Harri_M=E4ki?= Subject: demogorgon Yep, I remembered correctly. Sharon presents demogorgon in her Hollow Moon files= originally as a pteryx during the Carnifex time. Here is the adress for th= e file: http://dnd.starflung.com/moonfire.html Harri .............................................................. MTV3 Laajakaista - Hauskemman el=E4m=E4n puolesta. http://www.mtv3.fi/liittyma/hankinta/laajakaista/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:05:57 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Ancient religions of Mystara Chris Cherrington wrote: > > Protius has been very hands off as an immortal. He originally was a > whale that achieved immortality. A seafaring culture of Neathar > would have been practicing whaling, so to them Protius might have > personified a negative impact to their culture, and maybe even > forced them back away from the water's edge. Then again, Protius > has always been very hands off. Perhaps the Lhomarr, who were quite different from the Antalian/Skandaharian type, did not practice whaling -- at least those in the southern regions: the pre-Yanifey people, or northern Lhomarr tribes, could have practiced whaling and got forced back to the central regions of Alphatia, while the southern Lhomarr (Lhomarrian) could have been more traders/fishermen, and got more support from Protius. Bye, GP -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:26:20 -0500 From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Ancient religions of Mystara Agathokles wrote: > Perhaps the Lhomarr, who were quite different from the > Antalian/Skandaharian type, did not practice whaling -- at least those > in the southern regions: the pre-Yanifey people, or northern Lhomarr > tribes, could have practiced whaling and got forced back to the central > regions of Alphatia, while the southern Lhomarr (Lhomarrian) could have > been more traders/fishermen, and got more support from Protius. This sounds perfectly reasonable to me. This is a very interesting project you've undertaken, by the way! Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 17:19:29 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Ancient religions of Mystara --- Chris Cherrington wrote: > Protius has been very hands off as an immortal. He > originally was a whale that achieved immortality. A > seafaring culture of Neathar would have been > practicing whaling, so to them Protius might have > personified a negative impact to their culture, and > maybe even forced them back away from the water's > edge. Then again, Protius has always been very > hands off. Whalers might not neccesarily see Protius as an enemy. Rather as other hunters they would worship the patron of the creature who allows them to live. Hunters often have the greatest respect and awe of the creature they hunt, especially in historical times. Not saying Llomarians would have to be whales though. Just a perspective that might be considered. :) Havard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes havardfaa@yahoo.no www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 17:27:05 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Ancient religions of Mystara Geoff Gander wrote: > >> regions of Alphatia, while the southern Lhomarr (Lhomarrian) could have >> been more traders/fishermen, and got more support from Protius. > > This sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Then I suppose I'll keep it this way. > This is a very interesting > project you've undertaken, by the way! Thank you, Geoff. I hope this small project will help us give some more coherence to the ancient history of Mystara. Bye, GP -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 14:07:10 -0300 From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Subject: Re: Unsubscribe Let me guess: he casted a "Power Word Unsubscribe" and we managed to save? Do we roll vs willpower? :-P vini At 09:39 17/02/2004, you wrote: > Unsubscribe ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 16:02:32 -0300 From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Subject: Conventions (funny... I hope) (I had written this in my other msg replying to Andr=E9, but it went too=20 off-topic, so I opened this thread.) "Andr=E9 Martins" said, about the conventions that used to happen at our=20 University: "...but I'd have liked to know about it and even showed up." Well, Andr=E9, at USPCon 1993 I was playing a 6th-level White Robe and some= =20 of the old, experienced guys started yelling from a table far away: "Yes!=20 Yes! Sleep! Yes!!!". Everyone rushed to see what was going on. A 5m-wide=20 drawing of a Tarrasque had been quickly drawn on a blackboard. The beast=20 was pictured dead, laying belly up and holding a flower in his hands, which= =20 were tied on his chest (like in a Woddy Woodpecker cartoon). Guys had a=20 hard time stopping laughing to tell me what happened: the Tarrasque was=20 slain by a low-level wizard that put him asleep (?????????) with the famous= =20 1st-level spell. Not enough, though: the same wizard cut his throat=20 (?????????) with his dagger. Still sad you did not show up? Conventions... vini ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 16:05:07 -0300 From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Subject: "Slumber" Jacks and physicists (WAS: "WE can make a difference") At 04:58 07/02/2004, you wrote: > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] WE can make a difference > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > > We have an yearly convention called USPCon (USP =3D University of S=E3o= Paulo) (snip) > Ok, this did wake me from my long sleep in the list. Every month or so you don't write to us, I'll wake you up, right? ;) > I was in USP back in 1995, finishing my PhD in Physics (is it me or are=20 > there more physicists > around here than one would expect?) It seems that there are more Physicists per capita than allowed by Surgeon= =20 General: you, Giulio and SteelAngel and only 233 non-physicists. :-P But yes, I remember you, physicists: always distributing those awful grades= =20 to us, poor Engineering students. :-PPP > and I never knew of that convention. Of > course, at that time, I only played with a small group of close friends and > I didn't interact much with the people at the few gaming shops (not to > mention I also got a lot of my game material in the net) and wasn't looking > for those events > Anyway, back to my slumber until someone else disturbs me (or until I > finally find the time to get back to my RPG projects). > > Andr=E9 That's the main reason why I decided to write this msg: as we are=20 getting... uh... experienced, higher level (not old, of course), we have=20 new things to be worried about: Uni, work, girlfriend/fiancee/wife (and the= =20 opposite, for the girls), family, filling our friends' mailboxes with long= =20 e-mail msgs etc :-( However, we MUST keep on playing! Actually, it's the happy moments that=20 keeps us from "going postal". Don't give up, make your stand! Be happy=20 (while not hurting other people, of course). Casual, imparcial offer: I need one more player to my WotI campaign (BTW=20 thanks to you guys for the nice input!). :-DDD vini ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:34:30 -0500 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: New Campaign Okay, it has been a while, but my garage has been cleaned out and my wife is allowing me to play again! At least for late nights, I will just be downstairs in the garage, so I can't forget to check in (I swear she treats me like our 14 year old son). Are there any players interested in joining my group in the Greenacres/West Palm Beach, Florida area listed here? Maybe we can do a "GarageCon" for you Orlando/Oviedo guys once a month? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 16:15:34 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Elves, elves, everywhere elves! Just an observation I made the other night (not sure why it took me so long to notice), but has anyone else realized that there must have been an *awful* lot of elves living in the Broken Lands region pre-1700 explosion? I mean, there were enough elves to form at least 6 different clans, four of which (the Porador, Felistyr, Gelbalf, and umm... the other one) produced the entirety of the Shadowelves population (which is what, 550,000? In 1700 years. The elves that make up Alfheim didn't reach nearly that number in only 900 years less time). One of which produced the entire population of the Icevale elves (again, a sizable population), and the other is responsible, ultimately, for the entire population of the Gentle Folk (which is pretty large, too, but not nearly as large as the other two). IIRC, the Sheyallia also came from this group of Known World elves. Just how many elves were living in that region before they blew it up? And what kind of an impact would they have had on surrounding cultures (and vice versa). The Ethengars were living around there, Antalians further north and east (and Gaz7 does mention that the people of one particular Vestlandish territory are rumored to be half-elven. That plus the NR runes are identical to the Sylvan runes from module CM7: Tree of Life). You had the Nithians, pre-empire; the Taymorans; the proto-Atruaghin people; the Urduk... that elven population before 1700 must have been a major, major force in the area... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 23:49:36 -0300 From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Subject: WotI "intermission", levels, Benekander... First of all, I'd like to thank you guys on the marvelous input on WotI: all my questions have been answered, and with a quality only found in this list. :) I took too long to reply but I was reading everything - and used your advice in the 1st session (char creation and mood explanation). I'm about to answer to your replies (Chris, Francisco, Havard and Andrew). --------------------------------- Random question: is the new ogre Geoff? --------------------------------- About WotI "intermission", levels, Benekander etc; well, the adventure is divided in 3 parts: - 1st, low-level: 1st to 5th-level chars recommended; I'll used 3rd ones (engineers and physicists in this lists, rejoy, for I'm using an average... darned mathematical brain! No, serious, Mr. Arneson advises us to do that, so who am I to say something else?); 4 years should pass from the Gazeteers time (1000 A.C.) to the beginning of the 1st part (1004 A.C.); - 2nd, low-level: medium-level (????) chars recommended; half an year to one year should pass from the end of the 1st part to the beginning of the 2nd one; HERE BE QUESTION!!!!!! - 3rd, low-level: high-level chars (????) recommended. Questions (in chronological time): - what should the characters do between parts 1 and 2? Where? - do you think having a Benekander's cleric spices up the adventure? - one of the PCs is a cleric, and the player is inclined to have no specific Immortal, believing in "something higher" instead; he doesn't know how much that HELPS me if I really plan to make him a Benekander's cleric; nice! But then a question comes: "How does a cleric start believing in an Immortal who has JUST got there - like Benekander?" - what does "medium level" mean? Or a more objective question: what level shoudl the PCs enter the 2nd part? - what does "high level" mean? Or a more objective question: what level shoudl the PCs enter the 3rd part? - what level shoudl the PCs EXIT the 3rd part? - do you guys think that the transition from the end of WotI to the beginning of "Mark of Amber" is smooth? I mean, you-know-who's fate. TIA, folks. vini, the magus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 19:58:36 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: WotI "intermission", levels, Benekander... "Vinicius R. de Moraes" wrote: --------------------------------- Random question: is the new ogre Geoff? --------------------------------- Wow- you have been gone a while. :) Yeah, Geoff's been the List Ogre since Leroy stepped down some years back. (What was our new nickname for him?) > What should the characters do between parts 1 and 2? Where? I think it depends on the campaign you're running. (Helpful, huh?) What I mean is, if there's something more or less going on. Example, in the WotI campaign I ran, the PCs were going to be fully enmeshed in the changes being wrought by WotI- ie, all the chaos that was going on, and building up, they would experience peripherally, only learning that there was a connection between it as they got more involved. I never got very far with the campaign, but the plan was to have them (after the first part, which I altered somewhat- instead of being in Corran Keep, it was actually an estate near Darokin City owned by one Clifton Caldwell...)- afterwards, they were going to follow up on leads of a rare Traladaran tapestry, during which I was going to run a modified B10: Night's Dark Terror (one of the PCs was a halfling merchant). The events with the hutaakans in the Lost Valley would have been tied in with rising tensions amongst the Immortals (Kartoeba was awakened from his slumber by Ranivorus, who was seeking to place agents across the land). Ha dn't really decided what I'd do after that, but probably have the PCs follow up leads from the whole Ranivorus/Kartoeba thing and move on... The other option is to have a "secondary" mission of the campaign. In the above scenario, the hafling merchant's treasure seeking could be seen as a secondary goal, along the lines of which I'd develop plots. Another option from a different campaign- mostly centered around the activities of the Rahib, agent of Thanatos- was that the PCs in that scenario were (unbeknownst to them, at first) working for the Darokin Diplomatic Corps as field agents. The two members of their party who were in the know (NPCs) were secretly directing their activities. So while some missions played around tracking down the Rahib, others involved seemingly innocuous "jobs" brought up by the NPCs. And of course, there were some unrelated missions too. The main point here is that you have two "major" storylines going, which may or may not be related, so that you can switch back and forth. If possible, tailor them to the backgrounds and histories of the PCs- makes it that much easier for you, as a DM, to come up with adventures (IMO). > do you think having a Benekander's cleric spices up the adventure? I don't know. I could see where it would, although, naturally you couldn't have a cleric of Benekander until *after* part one, which means that (depending on the system you're using) it might have to be a new player. If you're playing AD&D or D&D 3.x, I think having a current PC multiclass or dual-class into a cleric of Benekander would make for some interesting options (even an adventure in itself, as the PC gets visions, directing him and his companions on a quest, the end of which has him being "selected" by Benekander and receiving the option of becoming a cleric). For my part, I was going to use Benekander as an actual NPC in the party, for much of the time. (He initially appeared in his Incorporeal form during their first encounter, and everyone just assumed he was a ghost- including himself. He was later going to find a body for himself, and join with the PCs off and on, establishing his merchant identity and learning more about his nature along the way). > one of the PCs is a cleric, and the player is inclined to have no specific Immortal, believing in "something higher" instead; he doesn't know how much that HELPS me if I really plan to make him a Benekander's cleric; nice! But then a question comes: "How does a cleric start believing in an Immortal who has JUST got there - like Benekander?" The scenario I mention above comes to mind. He could begin receiving visions. Depending on how skeptical the PC is, you could have Benekander start speaking to him directly, or else just sending him anomalous visions, and a quest, during the course of which the PC comes to a gradual understanding that there is a Higher Power directing all of this, and that it is this Benekander person. He might even be convinced that his idea of a "higher power" has been inspired all along- he knew there was something besides just the known Immortals out there, and was unconsciously seeking it, only to find that it was a specific Immortal all the time, just one unfamiliar. > what does "medium level" mean? Or a more objective question: what level shoudl the PCs enter the 2nd part? I think the book gives a pretty good idea of the levels they should be, unless I'm totally misremembering. IIRC, they're supposed to be around 6th-8th level or so. I'd have to check for sure. It might not be listed in... lemme grab it real quick. Yeah- page 28: "...from 6th to 15th experience levels, averaging around 11th level..." That's a pretty broad range. Huh. Never really noticed that. > what does "high level" mean? Or a more objective question: what level shoudl the PCs enter the 3rd part? It says 16th level on up, but again, that's pretty broad, considering. I don't really know- I don't think 16th level characters could take on the Screaming Demons from the near-finale, but then, that's really the only tough encounter there. They should be able to cope with the DBots near the Beagle, and the climax pretty much doesn't rely on their actions at all (which is kind of disappointing, and something I was planning on changing if I'd ever gotten my campaign to this point- I was actually planning on having one of the PCs be near to Immortality by now, if things had gone well. He'd have been sponsored without his knowledge on the Path of the Dynast- the halfling merchant. His "kingdom" would have been his merchant business, which he'd have gone on several quests through time to perpetuate... anyway, long story short, I envisioned him attaining Immortality during the climax, and having to use his fledgling Immortal powers to help Rad combat Ixion while his companions tr ied to fix the Nucleus of the Spheres. Probably wouldn't have worked out as well as it sounds, but I liked the imagery. :) > what level shoudl the PCs EXIT the 3rd part? Again, not certain. The climax doesn't seem as deadly as the Screaming Demon/Calor fight, but by the finish it mentions that the PCs should get a benefit on attempts to gain sponsorship to Immortality. Also, note my choice in my campaign above. I'd say they should be around levels 30-33 or thereabouts. > do you guys think that the transition from the end of WotI to the beginning of "Mark of Amber" is smooth? I mean, you-know-who's fate. Not sure exactly what you mean. If you mean as far as running Mark of Amber as a followup adventure? I'd say no, from a mechanical standpoint. MoA is for levels of characters that would be much lower than any PCs who made it through part III of WotI. Unless you substantially ratchet up the challenges in MoA, it wouldn't really work too well (then again, I always felt that, for as old as they were supposed to be, the levels of the d'Ambrevilles was waaay too low, and have a tendency to crank them puppies up in my games with them). If you mean from a chronological standpoint, Mystara wise, then bear in mind that MoA is supposed to take place several years after the end of part III of Wrath. It's technically supposed to take place in 1012, I think, while Wrath ends in 1009 (following the timeline later established, though the actual adventure gives you leeway). There's a whole series of almanacs that take place between times. :) ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 16 Feb 2004 to 17 Feb 2004 (#2004-44) ***************************************************************