Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 17 Feb 2004 to 18 Feb 2004 (#2004-45) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 19/02/2004, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 10 messages totalling 364 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Ancient religions of Mystara (7) 2. Elves, elves, everywhere elves! (2) 3. Filling in the Blanks: The Brute-Men ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:52:45 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Ancient religions of Mystara --- Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > I'm not so sure about Orcus: apparently, on Mystara, > he's only involved with Devil Swine cults. > He might have existed on other worlds, of course, > even before lycanthropy was created on Mystara. Orcus at least IMO is a patron of Beastmen and other mamal-like monsters. Demogorgon takes care of the lizardlike monsters. In a previous discussion, it was suggested that he should be around at the time of the Gnoll invasions of Traladara, but youre right, he probably should not be around at the time we are discussing here. Havard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes havardfaa@yahoo.no www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:14:09 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Ancient religions of Mystara Havard Faanes wrote: > >> I'm not so sure about Orcus: apparently, on Mystara, >> he's only involved with Devil Swine cults. >> He might have existed on other worlds, of course, >> even before lycanthropy was created on Mystara. > > Orcus at least IMO is a patron of Beastmen and other > mamal-like monsters. Uhm... I'd think Hel was the original patron of Beastmen. Later, when the Beastmen proved to be not so evil as Hel hoped, other, non-entropic immortals took them over. > In a previous discussion, it was suggested that he > should be around at the time of the Gnoll invasions of > Traladara, but youre right, he probably should not be > around at the time we are discussing here. Yes. Going with John Calvin's Treatise on Lycanthropy, I'd say the lower bound for Orcus can be moved down to 2000 BC, which is early enough for him to have been involved in the Gnoll invasion of Traladara, if needed. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:51:41 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Ancient religions of Mystara --- Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > > Orcus at least IMO is a patron of Beastmen and > other > > mamal-like monsters. > > Uhm... I'd think Hel was the original patron of > Beastmen. Later, when the Beastmen proved to be not > so evil as Hel hoped, other, non-entropic immortals > took them over. Yup. Hel was the creator of the Beastmen and is still the highest patron of the Humanoids into which the Beastmen developed. Orcus can in many ways be seen as one of Hel's lieutenants with specific charge of these creatures, since Hel, high Ranking as she is withing Entropy has many other concerns aswell. Thats the way it works IMC anyways. > > In a previous discussion, it was suggested that he > > should be around at the time of the Gnoll > invasions of > > Traladara, but youre right, he probably should not > be > > around at the time we are discussing here. > Yes. Going with John Calvin's Treatise on > Lycanthropy, I'd say the lower > bound for Orcus can be moved down to 2000 BC, which > is early enough for > him to have been involved in the Gnoll invasion of > Traladara, if needed. Okay. :) Havard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes havardfaa@yahoo.no www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:52:05 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: Ancient religions of Mystara > Protius has been very hands off as an immortal. He > originally was a whale that achieved immortality. Where is the reference to this??? I always thought he was one of those Immortals too ancient to remember their origin... Giulio ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail: 6MB di spazio gratuito, 30MB per i tuoi allegati, l'antivirus, il filtro Anti-spam http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:06:20 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Ancient religions of Mystara --- la Volpe skrev: > > Protius has been very hands off as an immortal. > He > > originally was a whale that achieved immortality. > > Where is the reference to this??? > I always thought he was one of those Immortals too > ancient to remember their origin... IIRC this is from WotI. It says he was a dolphin-like creature or something from Mystaras ancient past who travelled into the future and met with Khonornus who deceided to sponsor him to Immortality. I think his Hands-off-ishness can be debated though... Havard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes havardfaa@yahoo.no www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 08:08:13 -0500 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Ancient religions of Mystara > > From: la Volpe > Date: 2004/02/18 Wed AM 06:52:05 EST > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Ancient religions of Mystara > > > Protius has been very hands off as an immortal. He > > originally was a whale that achieved immortality. > > Where is the reference to this??? > I always thought he was one of those Immortals too > ancient to remember their origin... > I thought I read it in the WotI Immortal list. He is also known as the Spooming Nooga, because of his whale background. Of course he could very well be very ancient, as he most likely achieved immortality soon after Ka. Anyone use the mythology that whales were once a race of titans from Matter; they abandoned their immortal patron to help an immortal in Time? After being caught, they were punished to live in the waters of Mystara. The immortal of Time took pity with this great race and gave them their sleeker, more ocean ready profile. The leader was then recognized for keeping them together in their new forms, and ascended to immortality through the sphere of Time, as Protius. Today his descendants rule the oceans, and are always eager to search for more mystical knowledge of Mystara, and to keep that knowledge from beings of Matter, whom they view as creatures that live on land. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:07:15 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Ancient religions of Mystara --- Chris Cherrington wrote: > I thought I read it in the WotI Immortal list. He > is also known as the Spooming Nooga, because of his > whale background. Of course he could very well be > very ancient, as he most likely achieved immortality > soon after Ka. Yep its from WotI. It says he travelled far into his future, which was Mystaras ancient past, which means he must be very ancient indeed, although not as old as Odin, Ixion, Thanatos, Hel and (probably) Faunus. > Anyone use the mythology that whales were once a > race of titans from Matter; they abandoned their > immortal patron to help an immortal in Time? After > being caught, they were punished to live in the > waters of Mystara. The immortal of Time took pity > with this great race and gave them their sleeker, > more ocean ready profile. The leader was then > recognized for keeping them together in their new > forms, and ascended to immortality through the > sphere of Time, as Protius. Today his descendants > rule the oceans, and are always eager to search for > more mystical knowledge of Mystara, and to keep that > knowledge from beings of Matter, whom they view as > creatures that live on land. Cool idea. I'm sure many whales believe that. PC2 had a whale cleric, the Eternal Voyager. He may or may not be a mortal identity of Protius Havard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes havardfaa@yahoo.no www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:13:29 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Elves, elves, everywhere elves! --- Andrew Theisen skrev: > Just an observation I made the other night (not sure > why it took me so long to notice), but has anyone > else realized that there must have been an *awful* > lot of elves living in the Broken Lands region > pre-1700 explosion? Interesting tidbits snipped. I haven't really thought about this, but yeah you are right, there seems to have been quite alot of them. Confused as I am about elven history, Im not even sure where they all came from. On Shadowelf population growing to such numbers compared to Alfheimers, it might be that the shadowelves, at least in the past reproduced much quicker, possibly due to the terrors they went through. Compare to the baby boom after WWII, the SE might have had multiple booms...? > Just how many elves were living in that region > before they blew it up? And what kind of an impact > would they have had on surrounding cultures (and > vice versa). The Ethengars were living around there, > Antalians further north and east (and Gaz7 does > mention that the people of one particular > Vestlandish territory are rumored to be half-elven. > That plus the NR runes are identical to the Sylvan > runes from module CM7: Tree of Life). You had the > Nithians, pre-empire; the Taymorans; the > proto-Atruaghin people; the Urduk... that elven > population before 1700 must have been a major, major > force in the area... Perhaps this helps explain Mealidens exodus. It was an attempt to reinstate an elven presence in the area? Havard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes havardfaa@yahoo.no www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:06:29 -0500 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Elves, elves, everywhere elves! The elves were not much of an influence to their neighboring countries, as many of those countries did not know they existed. Only one race remembered them, the Hin, and only one clan at that; and even now that story is shrouded in myth. If Mealiden knew of their existence at one time, and wanted to re-assert elven dominance in the area, the elves might have been more receptive to the Shadow Elves many years later. Nobody can trust an elf; their history is too fanciful and not adherent to actual fact. They tend to glorify their preeminence and re-write history. They are always trying to hide their dark side, and even blame others on their mistakes. The only proof they have to offer is that they lived it, and that is how they remember it. :-P Now, another theory can attest to the Shadow Elves disposition to birth defects, and even Rafael’s laws on marriages. Elves cannot breed too quickly with the small numbers they started out with; the genetics will kill them off. Surface races of elves bred more slowly, and never encountered the problems of the speedy elves down below. In order to survive the harsh environment of the caverns, the Shadow Elves would have to breed like rabbits to fight off the attrition rate, especially after seeing what it did to that fourth clan that did not breed readily. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:23:19 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Filling in the Blanks: The Brute-Men The recent discussion about Ancient Mystara Religions, as well as some other work I've been doing has led me to a dilemma that I hope you all can help me with. Specifically, three are some major gaps (well, just lack of info) about Mystara's lost proto-humans, the Brute-Men. Aside from their entries in the Hollow World sets, there really isn't much info about them at all. Here's where I'm hoping you guys can help me. I'm trying to place them chronologically. If we assume (as they are described) that they are a neanderthal-like near relative, and that (like RW neanderthals) they were simply replaced somehow by the early homo sapiens, then they should be somewhat parallel with the other races. > From the timelines in the Hollow World boxed set, the early homo sapiens (the neathar) were prospering around 6,000 BC. No mention of the Brute-Men save that they exist in the Hollow World at this time. Presumably by 6,000 they are already gone in the Outer World (except for "lost world" locations, such as the Isle of Dread). > From PWA 1012, we are told that the Brute-Men were already on the decline in the Outer World- around 10,000 BC. So, again, based on this and the above, presumably by 6,000 BC they are effectively gone. What I'm hoping to fill in, is where might they have lived in the Outer World? What were their primary locations, what niches were filled by neathar that rendered brute-men obsolete (or, if something else happened, what?). Also, where were the Carnifex and their minions located at the time (pre-Y'hog, I'm not too clear on, and can't seem to find much information about, even though I'm pretty sure we've discussed it before). Finally, where might Kagyar as a mortal brute-man, fit into this timeline? Any thoughts would be most helpful. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 17 Feb 2004 to 18 Feb 2004 (#2004-45) ***************************************************************