Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 18 Feb 2004 to 19 Feb 2004 (#2004-46) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 20/02/2004, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 20 messages totalling 779 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Filling in the Blanks: The Brute-Men (15) 2. Orders of the Calarii 3. Handling Gambling (2) 4. WE can make a difference 5. All-Father (Was) Adventure Scenario: War of the Druids ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 08:38:44 -0500 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Filling in the Blanks: The Brute-Men > > From: Andrew Theisen > > From PWA 1012, we are told that the Brute-Men were already on the decline in the Outer World- around 10,000 BC. So, again, based on this and the above, presumably by 6,000 BC they are effectively gone. > In the RW, we are only just discovering the Neanderthals living next to and interbreeding with Cro-Magnon man. I am guessing Neathar is Mystara’s Cro-Magnon, as these people enter the Dawn of the Sentient Races; they are evolved into Neathar of today’s Hollow World. They are 2 essentially different races; several myths revolve on these ideas: Big Foot & Yeti as modern day Brute-men, evolved very little over the millennia. Another look at the older descriptions of the Traladara of the Huutacka Valley, could Nithians have bred Traladaran Doulaki with remnants of some Brute-men they found in their travels to breed a worker? Could Duskers of Thothia been a later experiment of breeding goblins and Brute-men? Then also there is that lost valley in the frozen wastes where the fire mages eat the local populace. Could also the Tribes of Den be rumored to have bred with orcs, only to discover now that they are remnants of Brute-men and Neathar? > What I'm hoping to fill in, is where might they have lived in the Outer World? Lets take a look at maps depicting earlier supper continents, of course what did Mystara look like during the Blackmoor civilization? > Finally, where might Kagyar as a mortal brute-man, fit into this timeline? His immortality has always puzzled me. Is the brute-man his final incarnation for the Polymath? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 15:10:51 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Filling in the Blanks: The Brute-Men --- Chris Cherrington wrote: > > Finally, where might Kagyar as a mortal brute-man, > fit into this timeline? > His immortality has always puzzled me. Is the > brute-man his final incarnation for the Polymath? Doesnt James Mishler's timeline suggest that Dwaves developed from Brute-men? This makes sense if the Dwarves see Kagyar as some sort of ancestor, perhaps the first true dwarf? If so, wouldnt it make sense that the Brute-men dominate on the northern continent, in the areas that now are The Known World and Norwold. These areas were dominated by Old Dwarves in past times, before being driven away by the Chromatic Dragons settling in the Wyrmsteeth range... Havard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes havardfaa@yahoo.no www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 15:32:01 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Filling in the Blanks: The Brute-Men Chris Cherrington wrote: > > Could > Duskers of Thothia been a later experiment of breeding goblins and > Brute-men? Uhm, what are the Duskers, BTW? > Then also there is that lost valley in the frozen > wastes where the fire mages eat the local populace. Ah, those people from Creature Catalog, the Qauriks or something like that... yes, they could be the result of some interbreeding, though they seem to be more human than the average Brute-Man. >> Finally, where might Kagyar as a mortal brute-man, fit into this >> timeline? > > His immortality has always puzzled me. Is the brute-man his final > incarnation for the Polymath? More likely, his first incarnation. As a polymath, he had to reach 12th level (IIRC) in three other classes/races. He could have started as a high-level Brute-Man (=Fighter), then reincarnating as Brute-Man Shaman (=Cleric) and/or Wicca (=Magic-User). We would need one more incarnation, the Thief-like, which could have been as a human Thief or some kind of monster. Bye, GP -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 07:02:34 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Filling in the Blanks: The Brute-Men Havard Faanes wrote: > Doesnt James Mishler's timeline suggest that Dwaves > developed from Brute-men? This makes sense if the > Dwarves see Kagyar as some sort of ancestor, perhaps > the first true dwarf? This was kind of my theory as well, and though I think I developed it independently of James, it's been so long now that I can't recall for certain. My theory was that the dwarves were actually sort of a pygmy version of the brute-men, but one that prospered when the main race did not, due to their having adapted to a particular niche (in this case, mountain living) that the parent race did not- ie, the brute-men were competing for the same environments as the neathar, and were less well able to adapt, and thus died out, while the pygmy brutes lived in areas where there was no competition from similar species/races and thus prospered, becoming the race we know as the Kogolor dwarves (and, from there, the Rockhome dwarves). Following from that, I figured that Kagyar became the sponsor of these pygmy brutes either because a) they were the largest remaining remnant of his mortal peoples still around, and he felt sympathetic towards them when they were in danger of dying from the radiation fallout from the GRoF, or b) he actually was one of these pygmy brutes himself, and was thus a sort of proto-dwarf (making his sympathies towards them even greater than it would be in situation a). > If so, wouldnt it make sense that the Brute-men > dominate on the northern continent, in the areas that > now are The Known World and Norwold. You know, after my post, I checked out the precataclysmic map of Mystara from the HW boxed set, and kind of came to similar conclusions. I had always sort of placed a couple of groups there anyway (to explain the neanderthals from X1: Isle of Dread, and also, IMC, the brutes are the ancestors of the Denagothans, not the beastmen/neathar mix that is in the current sketch of the Wendar/Denagoth timeline on the Mystara site). I figure this is probably correct- again, following from my above hypothesis, they were living in areas similar to those occupied by the neathar, and were driven to the extreme areas because they couldn't compete as well. Since Davania was pretty much reptilian dominated, the brutes couldn't retreat there, and the remaining northern continents were home to the burgeoning neathar, thus only those brutes that managed to find hidden/isolated places, or fit into other niches from the neathar (like the pygmy mountain dwellers) managed to survive. Thanks for the thoughts guys- I'm getting a better picture in my head as we speak. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 10:23:11 -0500 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Filling in the Blanks: The Brute-Men > > From: Giampaolo Agosta > Uhm, what are the Duskers, BTW? > Duskers are a interplanar slave race resembling goblins. Some are big for heavy tasks, others are medium to small sized for other tasks. I am not sure if it was Nithians that bred them first, or an outer-planar civilization that shared some with the Thothian Princes. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 10:33:51 -0500 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Filling in the Blanks: The Brute-Men Pygmy-Brutes? LOL I like the theory though. That would be a deep dark secret, then again it is also one way to explain our own evolution and animosity that we are hairless monkeys. What did Hin and Elves evolve from? Skinny-Brutes? Petite-Brutes? The offspring of Dryads and Brute-Men? :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 16:59:28 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Filling in the Blanks: The Brute-Men Chris Cherrington wrote: > >> Uhm, what are the Duskers, BTW? > > Duskers are a interplanar slave race resembling goblins. Some are > big for heavy tasks, others are medium to small sized for other > tasks. Ah, sound like the goblin slaves of the Honor Island wizards! > I am not sure if it was Nithians that bred them first, or > an outer-planar civilization that shared some with the Thothian > Princes. Nithians certainly had a penchant for "biothaumaturgy"... at least they created the Gnolls. The Duskers might have been a more successful experiment. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 17:02:02 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Filling in the Blanks: The Brute-Men --- Chris Cherrington skrev: > Pygmy-Brutes? LOL > I like the theory though. That would be a deep dark > secret, then again it is also one way to explain our > own evolution and animosity that we are hairless > monkeys. What did Hin and Elves evolve from? > Skinny-Brutes? Petite-Brutes? The offspring of > Dryads and Brute-Men? :) LOL! I wouldnt call a Dwarf a Pygmy-Brute to his face, in any case.... According to Mystaros again, Hin developed from humans also. Elves were Yuan-Ti purged of their serpent-blood by Ordana. Not sure if I like the latter theory, but Im kinda partial to all the races being related somehow. Havard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes havardfaa@yahoo.no www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 17:54:20 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Filling in the Blanks: The Brute-Men Chris Cherrington wrote: > > Pygmy-Brutes? LOL I like the theory though. That would be a deep > dark secret, then again it is also one way to explain our own > evolution and animosity that we are hairless monkeys. Mystaran dwarves and humans could be related -- if you take away the dwarven instincts and resistances added by Kagyar, the dwarves aren't especially different from humans, except physically. They don't look like Brute-Men, though, at least their skulls are definitely more Cro-Magnon-like. I'd say that Brute-Men, Kogolor Dwarves, and Humans are all "Homo Sapiens", though obviously different subspecies. Where and how they evolved from the M-hominids I wouldn't know. > What did Hin > and Elves evolve from? Skinny-Brutes? Petite-Brutes? The > offspring of Dryads and Brute-Men? :) The elves might indeed be the result of some interaction between Sidhe and early humans/hominid. There seems to be some affinity between elves and the Faerie Hin might have evolved naturally, from the same original stock as the elves or with some interbreeding with early elves. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 17:56:56 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Filling in the Blanks: The Brute-Men Havard Faanes wrote: > > According to Mystaros again, Hin developed from humans > also. Elves were Yuan-Ti purged of their serpent-blood > by Ordana. Not sure if I like the latter theory, but This would not explain why humans and elves can interbreed -- unless the Yuan-Ti originally were elves or humans. > Im kinda partial to all the races being related > somehow. I agree, at least for the races more closely related to humans. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 12:29:08 -0500 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Filling in the Blanks: The Brute-Men > > From: Giampaolo Agosta > > According to Mystaros again, Hin developed from humans > > also. Elves were Yuan-Ti purged of their serpent-blood > > by Ordana. Not sure if I like the latter theory, but > This would not explain why humans and elves can interbreed -- unless the > Yuan-Ti originally were elves or humans. > Well, in the Star Trek Universe, Klingons can breed with humans. ;) Seriously, without getting into another debate on genetics or digestive systems. In the original Immortal Rules, the creation theory presented Dragons creating Humans, and Draedens creating Diaboli. If Dragons also created Yuan-Ti, could the baseless creature purged be a "touched" human, later to be adopted by forest spirits and molded to the modern elf? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 12:37:32 -0500 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Filling in the Blanks: The Brute-Men > > From: Giampaolo Agosta > > Mystaran dwarves and humans could be related -- if you take away the > dwarven instincts and resistances added by Kagyar, the dwarves aren't > especially different from humans, except physically. They don't look > like Brute-Men, though, at least their skulls are definitely more > Cro-Magnon-like. > I think we would see more Half-Dwarves if this was so. I would have the Dwarves further removed from the human line, as we don't see this happening. There is one legend of a half-dwarf/elf in Mystaraverse, I forget where... > I'd say that Brute-Men, Kogolor Dwarves, and Humans are all "Homo > Sapiens", though obviously different subspecies. Where and how they > evolved from the M-hominids I wouldn't know. > Agreed in this sense, as the Neandertahl - Cro-Magnon relations. > > What did Hin > > and Elves evolve from? Skinny-Brutes? Petite-Brutes? The > > offspring of Dryads and Brute-Men? :) > > The elves might indeed be the result of some interaction between Sidhe > and early humans/hominid. There seems to be some affinity between elves > and the Faerie > I can see that more readily than Yuan-ti, I will just need to read Mishler's version. > Hin might have evolved naturally, from the same original stock as the > elves or with some interbreeding with early elves. > -- I don't know why just elves. But this race in Mystara is much like the hobbits of LOTR, flying in under the radar... No Immortal patron of sorts to lay claim to their relationship with the world cosmos. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 19:33:47 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: Filling in the Blanks: The Brute-Men --- Giampaolo Agosta ha scritto: > Chris Cherrington wrote: > > > > Pygmy-Brutes? LOL I like the theory though. > That would be a deep > > dark secret, then again it is also one way to > explain our own > > evolution and animosity that we are hairless > monkeys. > > Mystaran dwarves and humans could be related -- if > you take away the > dwarven instincts and resistances added by Kagyar, > the dwarves aren't > especially different from humans, except physically. > They don't look > like Brute-Men, though, at least their skulls are > definitely more > Cro-Magnon-like. > > I'd say that Brute-Men, Kogolor Dwarves, and Humans > are all "Homo > Sapiens", though obviously different subspecies. > Where and how they > evolved from the M-hominids I wouldn't know. I like this. I agree wholeheartedly. Probably dwarves and humans may also interbreed. The fact they don't depends wholly on cultural reasons. (although there could be rumours about the Filwarf... Naturally, every dwarf and human would refuse to accept even the possibility of this happening.) Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail: 6MB di spazio gratuito, 30MB per i tuoi allegati, l'antivirus, il filtro Anti-spam http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 12:14:20 -0800 From: Joaquin Menchaca Subject: Orders of the Calarii Hello all, I have been working on the development of the Calarii elves within Karameikos. This is an expansion on the earlier material that I submitted earlier. ORDERS OF THE CALARII --------------------- Within the Calarii there are small orders, which for all intents an purposes can be considered a clans by some cultures. Under D&D3e system, each race has a preferred class, which defers multi-class penalties. For the generic elf, this is wizard. However, by following a particular order, one can choose another "preferred" elf, or elect to play the generic elf presented in D&D3e and D&D3.5e systems. Fantaenis - This order believes in achieving purity and enlightenment of natural world through rigorous training in martial combat, a practice known as Kibol (see below). This is the most common order within the Calarii and comprises of over 75% of the Calarii. The preferred class of the fantaenis is the fighter. The fanteanis do not suffer multi-class penalties when taking levels in the fighter class. The fantaenis are open to interacting with other races as long as they express honor to one's heart and sincerity, as well as a respect for nature. Baelen - The order has a deep value and appreciate for life and creation and believe in replenishing life through the power of nature. These are the healers of the clan and as such the preferred class of the baelen is the cleric. Baelen do not suffer penalties for multi-classing when taking levels in the cleric class. Fetelis - The fetelis share a belief in empowering the mind through the study of riddles and puzzles. This order often serves the role of strategists and tacticians. This group also studies the social aspect of warfare. They emphasize alternative means to defeat an opponent rather than direct physical combat. At one time, they formed a pacifist movement through the study of logic called Linara, which ultimately formed the befallen Linarii clan. Though the pacifist aspect of the fetelis has all but disappeared after the Linarii's fate, it still shapes some of the founding principals. The preferred class of the fetelis is the wizard and they do not suffer multi-class penalties when taking levels as a wizard. Legas - this order devotedly follows strict and rigid code. They give their life completely to perfecting themselves and revere the hero Siras his philosophy Linara, order of logic. Thrugh Linara, one can achieve perfection of combat as one strives to achieve the true Qenta, or enlightenment. They feel that emotions are a distraction from the true path of the warrior. These devote legas preferred class is the paladin and as such do not suffer multi-class penalties when taking levels as a paladin. Vendia (Rangers) - this order believes in purging oneself and nature of impurities. The Vendia believe in the old ways and support isolation especially from corrupted societies. Once a calarii goes astray, it is the duty of the vendia to perform the vota, or cleansing ritual. The vendia are considered to be zealous at times, but never dismissed as irrelevant. It is suspected that the more fanatical of the vendia formed the mysterious rumored Dinarii clan. The preferred class of the vendia is the ranger, and they do not suffer any multi-class penalties when taking levels in the ranger class. PHILOSPHIES AND RITUALS ----------------------- Kibol is the rigorous study of martial combat. Upon achieving purity of the mind and body through this training, one can achieve some enlightenment as to the very secrets of nature itself. Kibol martial style reflects the natural circular patterns of life. It involves intricate movements and dancing. It also utilizes kinetic redirection. [Note: this would be a mixture of real-world arts of Tai-Chi, Aikido, and Brazillian Capoeira] Qenta is the pure moment of enlightenment when one can see all things, in all places, at all times. Vota is a ritual of cleansing in order to purge the mind, body, and spirit of impure thoughts that corrupt a calarii from the path to enlightenment. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 19:18:58 -0500 From: Keene Hammond Subject: Handling Gambling Hi all, I was wondering if anyone could point me to some resources for handling gambling. I use 2nd edition rules with all options for my Mystara campaign and I have a player who is a thief who likes to gamble and cheat and I am muddling though okay, but it could go better (other cheaters, competition, luck, Iron Ring ...) The topics that I am interested in are ones like; Preperation, Roleplaying, and Rules Thanks in advance, -Keene ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 23:41:46 -0300 From: Andre Martins Subject: Re: WE can make a difference From: "la Volpe" > I am not a physicist already, but I'm striving > hard...just five exams left...wait a year or so...8-) > > Well, there are me and you and SteelAngel, if I'm not > wrong... It seems we physicists are just more vocal about what we do, then. I should have known better than to trust such a sample. Anyway, good luck with your exams >> Anyway, back to my slumber until someone else >> disturbs me > > Sounds a lot like an Outer Being...[cold shivers down > my spine]... That was my intention, of course. And, as you can see I am back from my slumber, at least for today, I'll get a few things done here: answers and who know what else... From: "Ricardo Matheus" > I don't know how many physicists are in lthis list. But we have two > brazilian physiscists, who made their PhD in USP (in fact I'm still doing > mine) and love Mystara. WHAT ARE THE ODDS OF THAT?? I wouldn't have guessed it. Anyway, the people I used to play with, in the beginning, were all graduate students in Physics, in USP, plus my wife. It seems this list have very apparently unlikely characteristics of its members... From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" > But yes, I remember you, physicists: always distributing those awful grades > to us, poor Engineering students. :-PPP Hmmm, I must say in my defense that I have never given classes or grades to engineering students. On awful grades in general ... what would you expect from an Outer Being? > Casual, imparcial offer: I need one more player to my WotI campaign (BTW > thanks to you guys for the nice input!). :-DDD I assume you will be playing live, right? I'd love to get back to a live campaign, my current group plays once a year, literally, (I will get an email campaign going in a few months, hopefully), but I will be moving to a small city 400 kms from São Paulo in a month or two, as soon as all the paperwork in the university is finished. Still, let me know how it goes. And, of course, I am not sure you'd want a player who knows exactly how WotI goes. Where will the game be happening? > Well, André, at USPCon 1993 I was playing a 6th-level White Robe and some > of the old, experienced guys started yelling from a table far away: "Yes! > Yes! Sleep! Yes!!!". > > Still sad you did not show up? > Conventions... If this happened in a serious game, I am more than happy I didn't show up. If it was not supposed to be serious, I can't really know, as I wasn't there. Anyway, the fact remains that I have never attended a gaming convention. Only serious stuff, so far, unless someone wants to count Game Theory as gaming. On that note, I will be going to France and Spain in July, for those conferences, I am not sure I'll have time to meet, much less play with any of you guys there, but, if any of you live near Paris, Marseille or Elche, and will be at home by then, let me know. It'd be nice to finally meet someone from the list. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 22:05:26 -0500 From: Christopher M Cherrington Subject: Re: Handling Gambling There was a very good article in Dungeon about playing "quital?" A dice game involving a frog, the setting was in Glantri... I'll have to go through my closet. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 00:03:59 -0300 From: Andre Martins Subject: Re: All-Father (Was) Adventure Scenario: War of the Druids From: "Chris Cherrington" > This original thread got me thinking of a new story line. Comments are more than welcome! I will break this up since it is so long.... > > The Carnuilh All-Father > The Druidic circle of the Carnuilh relies heavily on the belief of the All-Father, a near immortal > being that transcends time by reincarnating himself as the Grand Druid of Brun. This circle of > purists does not believe in immortal sponsorship, and that the world itself with all its life is the > magic or the ley that they transcend from. At times the All-Father does not remember his > previous life, so the purists must take charge and remind the Grand Druid of his past. At some > intervals, the All-Father hibernates for a season, and so a female or sponsored Grand Druid will > hold the title for Brun. It is said that when the All-Father awakens and challenges the current > Grand Druid, that he is so in-tuned to the world ley, that he can deny all other druids of their > power, and thus easily wins the challenge and thus continues his cycle of power. I really like the ideas you sent about the All-Father, it really fits in my campaign ideas. I have already proposed some time ago that Thanatos was questing for OldOnehood by creating avatars and making them gain status in other spheres, you can check it at http://dnd.starflung.com/facade.html After that, my ideas on Thanatos evolved further and I sent the Tome of Mystara an article about it, but it seems the Tome is no longer available on line. I wonder if someone saved all the material there and if it would be ok to repost those here, so that those articles won't get lost. Briefly, Thanatos was, before the creation of the multiverse, a king and the elder immortals were princes under him. After some battles against an evil, the princes created the multiverse for their protection, when Thanatos was about to leave them, but he returned to help in the battle and was trapped inside their creation and away from his love. He has gone mad since and looks for a way to kill everything in the Multiverse and end its existence. Perhaps the All-Father is actually his sanity and conscience and there might be some prophecies that even the Immortals don't understand about the time when the Father and Death will get reunited. I still have the whole file and, since the Tome is gone, I was wondering if I should repost it here, or maybe send it directly to Shawn. Let me know if someone is interested, I will send it to anyone who wants to read it or post it if enough people want it. André ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:40:56 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Filling in the Blanks: The Brute-Men la Volpe wrote: > > I like this. I agree wholeheartedly. > Probably dwarves and humans may also interbreed. The > fact they don't depends wholly on cultural reasons. There might also be some reasons based in physiology, but certainly the cultural reasons would be very strong on both sides. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:57:12 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Filling in the Blanks: The Brute-Men Chris Cherrington wrote: > > I think we would see more Half-Dwarves if this was so. I would have > the Dwarves further removed from the human line, as we don't see > this happening. There is one legend of a half-dwarf/elf in > Mystaraverse, I forget where... Not necessarily: as Giulio said, cultural reasons can be enough -- e.g., humans probably don't find dwarves to be especially attractive (while they may well find elves to be very attractive, yet there aren't that many half-elves/demi-elves outside of Eusdria). Also, dwarves are psychologically very different from humans -- for a dwarf, the average human would look as an individual affected by pathological laziness! >> Hin might have evolved naturally, from the same original stock as >> the elves or with some interbreeding with early elves. > > I don't know why just elves. But this race in Mystara is much like > the hobbits of LOTR, flying in under the radar... No Immortal > patron of sorts to lay claim to their relationship with the world > cosmos. Well, we know that elves and hin lived in the same continent (Davania) at a time when humans where not there (humans arrived in Davania only later, they started out in Skothar). We also know there was some interaction between elves and hin: "Halflings live in the rolling hills and forests of the southern continent, some distance from the elves, whom they respect greatly". And since the hin seem to have slightly elvish features, I'd guess there was some interbreeding. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 18 Feb 2004 to 19 Feb 2004 (#2004-46) ***************************************************************