Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 9 Mar 2004 to 10 Mar 2004 (#2004-61) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 11/03/2004, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 13 messages totalling 716 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. MYSTARA-L Digest - 8 Mar 2004 to 9 Mar 2004 (#2004-60) (2) 2. WotI campaign, at last! (WotI's and MoA's spoilers) (9) 3. Mystara Electronic Games 4. MYSTARA-L Digest - 8 Mar 2004 to 9 Mar 2004 (#2004-60) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 03:20:57 -0600 From: Devon Griffiths Subject: Re: MYSTARA-L Digest - 8 Mar 2004 to 9 Mar 2004 (#2004-60) Subject: Re: WotI campaign, at last! (WotI's and MoA's spoilers) wrote: > Sad can be good though. > However, WotI seemed more inclined to take away stuff > from the setting than to bring new and more > interesting stuff into it. Which is why I still feel > that AC1000 is more interesting than AC1010. > > IMC I solved the Alfheim issue by having all the elves > from Alfheim migrate into the Athruagin area and found > a new Alfheim there. That sort of messes with the > Athruagins, but If I have to chose, ill rather let > them go than the Alfheimers. The Athruaginians are > still around though, working for the elves, although > heavy humanoid raids have reduced them in numbers so > as to make room for the elves. Well, imho, this is only partially true, at least in the case of Alfheim. Aengmor was never developed in any publication to the depths that Alfheim was, but the potential is all there for it to be equally interesting. Certainly there are alot more adventuring possibilities in Aengmor than there were in Alfheim. If Aengmor had been published as a Gazeteer, I'm sure there would be many who would feel differently. As far as sad, it is a bit, but it isn't the "end" of the story anyway ... and of course, sad things happen along the way in any good story. Plus there are alot of places for the elves of Alfheim to go, if you really want to recreate Alfheim but keep the events of WoTI largely intact. Northwest Brun is a good spot, sort of a return to their roots, or they might begin to settle in parts of Norwold not already claimed by elves there. Or they might scatter in different directions and give you the opportunity to create new (but smaller) elven kingdoms in Norwold, Karameikos, parts of the Northern Reaches, and so on. I for one feel that Aengmor could be fully as interesting as Alfheim, and one need not lose the Alfheim elves altogether. > Because it is one of the things that made Glantri > different. Why take that unique feature away? IMC that > was only a temporary thing to help deal with the > plague. Now things are back to normal, although > underground sympathy for Clerics has been > strengthened. I always liked the idea of clerics being illegal in Glantri, its a unique feature, and I don't like it being taken away either. > Not sure. Perhaps some major setback, without taking > away the entire continent? Alphatia had to be removed. It was too disbalancing. People forgot how disorganized and disunited Alphatia was, how uninterested the wizards were in imperial pursuits (how much more focussed they were on their personal endeavours). These were things that moderated Alphatia, that made it balanced. People seemed to latch on to Alphatia and assign it the qualities which were really the territory of Thyatis - incredibly fast expansionism, loyal citizens, united imperial ambitions with citizens from all classes and walks of life feeling a sense of duty to the empire. Alphatia was no "super empire" just because it had many wizards, it was powerful but chaotic and fragmented and had difficulty enlisting cooperation from either its elite - who were too busy with their own interests such as magical research or warring with one another - or from the oppressed masses of non-spellcasters. Thyatis didn't have the magical power of Alphatia, but it did have lots of its own wizards, and it was a very strongly united society, an empire reaching for its peak, able to get cooperation and loyalty from its citizens and not tolerating internal rivalries (let alone wars, as in Alphatia). This balanced the power between the two, but the balance was forgotten, and Alphatia became, in most people's minds, a "power empire" which it really wasn't supposed to be. So I can see the rationale behind eliminating it. Nonetheless, I have to agree that AC 1000 is easier on the DM than AC 1010. I never introduced WoTI, I didn't like many of the changes, particularly the Day of Dread, and IMC not very much ever changed from AC 1000, except what was wrought by the players' actions themselves. There were only two major events of note, the invasion of the Master's forces, and a short scuffle over Norwold. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:07:50 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ville_V_L=E4hde?= Subject: Re: WotI campaign, at last! (WotI's and MoA's spoilers) > > IIRC, the pop. was only ~75,000. > Way too low, IMO. But I substantially increased the populations of all the > countries. > IMC I have said to the players that the population of Alfheim is 100 000 - 200 000. But I haven't decided anything myself. In playing X10 I used the army statistics of the module, and that would demand quite high population. Ville ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:17:02 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Mystara Electronic Games >> Questions: >> - The console for Warriors of the Eternal Sun is listed as "Sega Genesis". >> Is there any other? > > Not that I am aware of. No, it's only for Genesis, though Genesis also went under the name of "Megadrive" in some countries (Europe, IIRC). BTW, I see there is a missing game in the list: "Order of the Griffon". It is set in Karameikos, and the characters, IIRC, are sent by Lord Korrigan to find some holy relic to heal the Duke, who has been poisoned by someone (linked with the Iron Ring, IIRC). The game runs on a rather obscure console, PC Engine (a.k.a. Turbografx). Bye, GP -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:05:40 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: WotI campaign, at last! (WotI's and MoA's spoilers) --- Dan Eustace wrote: > Of course, w. a time travelling artifact, it is > possible that he could > return to 1009 and stop the sinking entirely. He > could even reverse the > Doomsday Device and turn Glantri into radioactive > slag! Time Travel is annoying though. True, a dynast usually travels in time to prevent the various disasters connected to his dynasty, but travelling back in time and fixing things tends to mess with everyone's heads, including the players, who are bound to hate it. No, what has happened in WotI has happened. But things may change after that. If Terari can find some way to convince the Immortals that keeping Alphatia inside the HW was a bad idea and that bringing it back would be a good idea... Havard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes havardfaa@yahoo.no www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:21:43 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: MYSTARA-L Digest - 8 Mar 2004 to 9 Mar 2004 (#2004-60) --- Devon Griffiths wrote: > Well, imho, this is only partially true, at least in > the case of Alfheim. > Aengmor was never developed in any publication to > the depths that Alfheim > was, but the potential is all there for it to be > equally interesting. > Certainly there are alot more adventuring > possibilities in Aengmor than > there were in Alfheim. If Aengmor had been published > as a Gazeteer, I'm sure > there would be many who would feel differently. As > far as sad, it is a bit, > but it isn't the "end" of the story anyway ... and > of course, sad things > happen along the way in any good story. Plus there > are alot of places for > the elves of Alfheim to go, if you really want to > recreate Alfheim but keep > the events of WoTI largely intact. Northwest Brun is > a good spot, sort of a > return to their roots, or they might begin to settle > in parts of Norwold not > already claimed by elves there. Or they might > scatter in different > directions and give you the opportunity to create > new (but smaller) elven > kingdoms in Norwold, Karameikos, parts of the > Northern Reaches, and so on. I > for one feel that Aengmor could be fully as > interesting as Alfheim, and one need not lose the > Alfheim elves altogether. I don't like Alfheim splitting up into different areas. I'd rather have them all go to one place alltogether. IMC i lean towards this being Athruagin, although as you point out, there are other possibilities. (Norwold, Adri Varna, Karameikos etc). Restoring the old forest will definately be a long term goal for surface elves all over the KW, but I dont want this to happen too soon, if ever. IMC, the Shadow Elves were disappointed with the forest. That and a heavy humanoid invasion led by Thar drove them back into their caves, and the dead forest is now known as the Orkenwoods, a dready Orc realm. > Alphatia had to be removed. It was too disbalancing. > People forgot how > disorganized and disunited Alphatia was, how > uninterested the wizards were > in imperial pursuits (how much more focussed they > were on their personal > endeavours). These were things that moderated > Alphatia, that made it > balanced. People seemed to latch on to Alphatia and > assign it the qualities > which were really the territory of Thyatis - > incredibly fast expansionism, > loyal citizens, united imperial ambitions with > citizens from all classes and > walks of life feeling a sense of duty to the empire. > Alphatia was no "super > empire" just because it had many wizards, it was > powerful but chaotic and > fragmented and had difficulty enlisting cooperation > from either its elite - > who were too busy with their own interests such as > magical research or > warring with one another - or from the oppressed > masses of non-spellcasters. > Thyatis didn't have the magical power of Alphatia, > but it did have lots of > its own wizards, and it was a very strongly united > society, an empire > reaching for its peak, able to get cooperation and > loyalty from its citizens > and not tolerating internal rivalries (let alone > wars, as in Alphatia). This > balanced the power between the two, but the balance > was forgotten, and > Alphatia became, in most people's minds, a "power > empire" which it really > wasn't supposed to be. So I can see the rationale > behind eliminating it. I understand the reason, but it was flawed, and again produced nothing interesting in return. Some other major setback could have been enough to return the Alphatians to rebuilding their empire, lose interest in conquest and return to their own internal rivalries. > Nonetheless, I have to agree that AC 1000 is easier > on the DM than AC 1010. Agreed. If Mystara ever was to return, id rather see it presented in AC1000 perspective, with the WotI timeline as one possible future. > I never introduced WoTI, I didn't like many of the > changes, particularly the > Day of Dread, and IMC not very much ever changed > from AC 1000, except what > was wrought by the players' actions themselves. > There were only two major > events of note, the invasion of the Master's forces, > and a short scuffle > over Norwold. The Day of Dread is also annoying. IMC it only lasted for a few years untill the magic level on Mystara again stabilized itself. Havard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes havardfaa@yahoo.no www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:42:58 EST From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: WotI campaign, at last! (WotI's and MoA's spoilers) <> That sounds about right. 25k went to Wendar. 30k went to Karameikos (along with a 1000 or so Erewan elves). That makes the Alfheim taking some serious casualties during the invasion, bordering on genocide. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:50:40 EST From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: WotI campaign, at last! (WotI's and MoA's spoilers) <> I am unsure of the stats in X10. However, remember that elves shouldn't follow the typical model for a population for armed mobilization. Typical populations use something along 25-33% of the populace as able bodied men and women fit for combat. The balance represents the young, the old, and those not up to the physical demands. Elves, with their lifespans and reproduction rates, would have fewer young and possibly fewer elderly. Hence, the troop pool would be larger as the population would be composed of mostly adult to mature elves. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:08:33 EST From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: WotI campaign, at last! (WotI's and MoA's spoilers) <> The obvious means is to renew Alphatian expansion within HW. Given the SoP, Alphatian expansionism and its tendency to subjugate would be preserved. Likewise, the SoP would give the Alphatians an advantage over the other cultures, even without the full inventary of magic, the more advanced alphatian warmachine should be able to wear down the canon HW cultures fairly quickly. The SoP is stated as being able to prevent one HW culture from eradicating another (Azca and Nithians) and the Immortals have intervened to preserve other dying races (Gentle Folk) living in HW. The seeds to this have already been planted in canon works. Alphatian subjugation of the Neathar is a start. Also remember that the Heldannic Knights were moving to assert influence in HW as well. Alphatia's role as the HW's UN peacekeepers was scripted, and might I add, is a bit contrary to the Alphatian national character. The trick is to use Terari/Tylion in this. I think that the Alphatians could initiate this alone, by just being alphatian. However, a Tylion that has achieved Immortality could act as a representative in Pandius and suggest such a return to the surface world. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:38:23 EST From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: MYSTARA-L Digest - 8 Mar 2004 to 9 Mar 2004 (#2004-60) I think one of the problems with Alphatia being used in a campaign is the misuse of it. Alphatians, both aristocrat and commoner, almost need to be played as a seperate race. For example, alot of people make the mistake of playing elves as "pointy eared humans" which isn't with the elven mindset. I think that the misconceptions concerning Alphatia are based more on potential fears than actual fears. There was alot of this inferred within the Almanac Teams, going as far as to have other regional teams monitoring Alphatian teams. I hate to keep bringing up the Almanac Teams, but alot of MML matters were discussed there and refering to those discussions is easy enough. In the past, posts on the MML have tried to dilude the power level of Alphatia. The Grand Council is a prime example of this. I really don't see a need in this as the balance is given within the Alphatian culture itself. Alphatia is, for intensive purposes, organized chaos. AC1000 was so much more easier to work with than post WotI. The Alphatia-Thyatis rivalry was kept in check by a psuedo east versus west type stalemate. Head on confrontation was doubtful, taking extreme scripting in WotI to make it actually happen. Wars between the two were border skirmishes. Work was plentiful for PCs on both sides, working behind the scenes to advance their empire's cause. Most Alphatian based adventure occurred within the Alphatian Empire. There certainly was ample material for adventure. Devon: <> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:13:29 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: WotI campaign, at last! (WotI's and MoA's spoilers) --- Alex Benson wrote: > The obvious means is to renew Alphatian expansion > within HW. > The seeds to this have already been planted in canon > works. Alphatian > subjugation of the Neathar is a start. Also remember > that the Heldannic Knights were > moving to assert influence in HW as well. Alphatia's > role as the HW's UN > peacekeepers was scripted, and might I add, is a bit > contrary to the Alphatian > national character. Good point. It would almost seem like the almanac designers were planning something similar. > The trick is to use Terari/Tylion in this. I think > that the Alphatians could > initiate this alone, by just being alphatian. > However, a Tylion that has > achieved Immortality could act as a representative > in Pandius and suggest such a > return to the surface world. What I have in mind is that this is Terari/Tylion's quest for Immortality. Even if he succeeds, it may not be enough for him to achieve it, unless he has already saved Alphatia from two other disasters (although they may have happened in the future aswell as the past). My idea is that the trouble stirred by Alphatia in the HW, combined with some emergency in the outer world will be the situation Terari needs. His role is to find a way into Pandius and convince the Immortals that Alphatia is needed back in the outer world. I sketched something similar in my "WotI II" scenario, available somwhere on Shawns site. It needs to be worked with, but an emergency of such proportions might allow Alphatia to be returned to the surface. A common enemy faced then by Alphatia and the KW nations will bring them together enough so that they will not resume the war between the empires. At least not for a while. This doesn't neccesarily end Alphatian presence in the HW. Nothing can stop that now that the HW is known. However, the expenses needed for both heldanners and alphatians (and others) to travel to the HW would realistically limit their profits from having much of a presence there. Colonizing Davania should be much more interesting. Havard ===== *** Håvard R. Faanes havardfaa@yahoo.no www.stud.ntnu.no/~havardfa ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:26:08 -0500 From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: WotI campaign, at last! (WotI's and MoA's spoilers) Haavard wrote: >> >I'm not sure how I feel about Alphatia >> disappearing. >> >> What else could have happened? > > Not sure. Perhaps some major setback, without taking > away the entire continent? One way of doing that would be to have the Doomsday Device work as planned - ie: blowing up Sundsvall - and leaving the rest of the continent intact. Then you just have to extrapolate what would happen next. That's what I planned to do IMC, with the result being a nasty civil war between the remaining factions of wizards. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 18:15:43 -0000 From: Colin Davidson Subject: Re: WotI campaign, at last! (WotI's and MoA's spoilers) > > One way of doing that would be to have the Doomsday Device work as planned > - ie: blowing up Sundsvall - and leaving the rest of the continent intact. > Then you just have to extrapolate what would happen next. That's what I > planned to do IMC, with the result being a nasty civil war between the > remaining factions of wizards. That's what I did in my campaign, the PC's managed to avert the destruction of Alphatia (a possoible ending in WotI). The repurcussions have been fascinating; here's a breif political summary of my Mystara, AC1037. Alphatia stumbled on, ultimately intact. Over the next several years she went through a terrible period under Zandor (Eriadnas son) until ultimately he was deposed, the Ruling Council placing a new imperial lineage on the throne. One Alphatian king who came through the Great War with a shining record was Haldebaran No-Mans Fool (forgive me if the spelling is wrong), a king from the Alatians, and he eventually became emperor. He strengthened Alphatian grip on Norwold (although he split that rebellious kingdom, which had declared independence during the war, into three; the Kingdom of Alpha, The Kingdom of Oceansend and the Grand Duchy of Maganshire), saw to it that Alphatia defended the nominal independence of some of the Isle of Dawn territories, and became somewhat more isolationist with regard to Thyatian interests, ignoring the rival empire while it re-took Ochalea and the Pearl Islands and extended its interests along the Jungle Coast (briefly coming into conflict with outlying colonies of Emerond, before coming to amicable terms). In truth, the continuing sporadic war with the Heldannic Knights made such conflicts on the other side of the empire a low priority for Alphatia! Glantri regained much of her former strength; having lost one principality, but gained two (with full integration of the werewolf and kobold principalities) she's got more potential than ever. However, with the recent murder of Prince Morphail, rumoured to have been dealt with by Alphatian necromancer hunters, there might well be more troubled times ahead! The Elven king Doriath established a new kingdom in his name in the woodlands of Atraughin; he's been trying to unify elves of the world against the Shadow Elves, with much success. Politics of the Known World being what they are, though, the Shadow Elves won't be without their alies; whether Doriath will gain enough support to launch his crusade, and whether that's a wise course of action anyway, is open to question. Unknown to Doriath, the Shadow Elves plan a surprise attack by land and sea on two locations on the Atraughin Coast; they plan, with the backing of some rich Darokinian Merchants, to build a major port on that location and offer it to League nations as a protected, safe anchorage for trading with the West. Thus the shadow elves aim to split Doriath from the league by promising a major boon for other league nations. Ultimately, who will prevail in this region is in the balance, with the key players being the distant elven communities in Wendar, Norwold, Minrothad and Thyatis and even further afield being increasingly likely to become involved. Karameikos has stumbled on; as the Kingdom of Traldara, as the ageing Stefan now likes to call it, it's now part of the Western Alliance with Darokin, the Shires, Rockhome and Doriath. Ylarum has fallen into the hands of more isolationist followers of Al Kalim, and is no longer part of the alliance. Ylari forces have recently attacked Tel Akbir and sortied as far as Kerrendas. Ierendi has fiercely maintained its independence in recent years, in response to aggression from Thyatis and the West. Minrothad is close to splitting along racial lines, with the Dwarves and Wood Elves of that nation increasingly suspicious of links between the Sea Elves and Shadow Elves. It has been rumoured that the recent, spectacular victory of the Sea Elves over a Thyatian fleet was only possible due to those ships carrying shadow elf wizards and marines, and it has been alledged by the Wood Elves that Shadow Elf units have been trained in naval warfare by the Sea Elves. The future of this nation is in the balance, with each island being contested by Thyatian, Minrothaddan and Sea Elf factions. One of the most important changes has been in Denagoth. A major artifact was stolen from Wendar by a mysterious figure, rumoured to have been Prince Morphail. As part of a deal to secure an end to hostilities between Alphatia and the Knights of Vanya, both nations agreed that Denagoth would be ceded to the Knights in return for the Heldannic Territories, and all hostilities would cease. In their place would be a non-aggression pact. The knights were happy with this, the long war against their enormous foe having been fought valiantly, but inevitably the might of Alphatia was too much for them; they had also taken enormous losses in a conflict with savages they had underestimated on the Southern continent, an expensive mistake to learn from. Alphatia (or rather, a group of Nobles in war torn frontier Norwold, the PC's) saw a chance to solve the problem with the Knights of Vanya and a huge opportunity for forge links with Wendar (if the Knights knew the extent of the involvement of said nobles in their defeat on the Southern continent, they might have been less willing to cooperate). After a long and arduous mission (which may or may not have something to do with the disappearance of Morphail and the Alphatian admiral, Gasan Otiluke) the artifact was recovered and the Knights moved from their seat of power in Heldann into distant Denagoth. A loss, for sure, but perhaps only a temporary setback for this truly global power. Whether this means that the Norwold/Heldann region will finally experience some stability remains to be seen; bitter rivalries already exist between the new King installed in Heldann by the Alphatians and the Southernmost Norwold Kingdom (the 'Arch Duchy' of Maganshire), and the native Heldann peoples of both kingdoms are restless for peace. Tensions between the two great empires are at a low now; Thyatis hasn't the economic might to take on Alphatia right now, and Alphatia has once again degenerated into a myriad of sects of disinterested mages. In truth, the Emperor knows that this is the only form in which Alphatia can survive, but also worries that inevitably this will lead to rival nations once again challenging Alphatia; he believes that one day this will bring about an end to the empire. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:15:35 -0600 From: Aaron Nowack Subject: Re: WotI campaign, at last! (WotI's and MoA's spoilers) Havard Faanes wrote: > This doesn't neccesarily end Alphatian presence in the > HW. Nothing can stop that now that the HW is known. > However, the expenses needed for both heldanners and > alphatians (and others) to travel to the HW would > realistically limit their profits from having much of > a presence there. Colonizing Davania should be much > more interesting. *nitpick* There is actually one thing that could do it, a Spell of Preservation/Oblivion style full-blown Immortal intervention, similar to what I used in the timeline for my Mystara 1600 AC campaign setting. [which I do intend to post more on at some point, but have been distracted by myriad other things.] I think such an intervention would be rather likely in the case of a surface-world Alphatia and Heldann dominating the Hollow World for long periods of time - after all, the whole purpose of the Hollow World is to protect its inhabitants from the more successful Outer Worlders. Once the Immortal war over the Radiance is finished, I'd imagine that surface world contamination of the Hollow World would be one of the main problems facing the reigning Hierarchs. Which might actually make for an interesting basis for an Immortal campaign. -- Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.mimiru.net/ ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 9 Mar 2004 to 10 Mar 2004 (#2004-61) **************************************************************