Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 5 Jan 2004 to 6 Jan 2004 (#2004-7) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 07/01/2004, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 20 messages totalling 1507 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Question about Darokin (3) 2. Other Naval Titles 3. establishing a port facilities in Atruagin (2) 4. Atruaghin Languages? 5. Where in the world is Rahasia? (4) 6. Mystara in Dragon (2) 7. establishing a port facilities in Atruagin and the HK 8. Extended Northmen Pantheon ver. 1.5 9. Mystara and Spelljammer 10. establishing a port facilities in Atruagin and the HK (4) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 00:35:43 -0800 From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: Re: Question about Darokin Thanks Collin but given the fact that atruagin is not a big power compared to darokin, it's very surprising that they haven't even considered buying or renting a strech of coastal land to make a port there. This would avoid the dangerous swampy area and could also if the port is far enough in the west avoid many pirates from Ierendi and the five shires. In a way, what i don't understand is why such an "imperialistic" and rich nation is not naturally inclined to conquer some lands after it conquered markets. The real world republic of Gena in italy has made this and i think it was taken as an exemple for the creation of Darokin. It is as if Darokin had been put under some powerful geas not to expend its borders. Most nations of the KW always try to extend their borders with the exception of few reclusive ones or at lest they would not lose an opportunity to do so. and there, what have we: a powerful nation, with a powerful and unoccupied army, (most part of the year). They always had problems with the tiger or viper clans. these lands are wild, probably full of untapped ressources. strategically, it is also another path for a potential invasion from the west (Hule), especially once the sind/amsorak region has been secured. and they they do nothing.It surprises me that's all. despite our simpathy for atruaghin clans, we all noticed that this was not the most obvious nation in the region. the plateau itself is a god place to have such cultures, but the bottom of the plateau could easily have been conquered by most armies of the KW. it's giving me an idea. i'll share that one later with you, once i've worked it up. thib ===== Thibault SARLAT a.k.a Clenarius www.mystara.fr.st ICQ 16622177 MSN Messenger: clenarius@hotmail.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:01:25 -0000 From: Colin Davidson Subject: Re: Other Naval Titles > Gaz 2 mentions that the Ylari have merchant ships in every port of call across the Known World. That is not to say they should have a Naval force, but they are very able bodied seamen. IMC, they have trouble going north with Ostland's Sea Reavers, but every port south to Ochalea and between the Isle of Dawn and Alphatia is full of Ylari merchants. Remember Al Kalim's sponsor is the Old Man of the Sea, and that part of his pilgrimage includes seafarers from Ylari to Minrothad. > True enough; in my campaign Ylari Xebecs can be found across much of the known world, but they're somewhat different to a naval force. They're well manned, and well armed, and rely on strength of numbers of merchant vessels to repel pirate invasions. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:13:43 -0000 From: Colin Davidson Subject: Re: Question about Darokin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thibault Sarlat" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 8:35 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Question about Darokin > Thanks Collin > > but given the fact that atruagin is not a big power > compared to darokin, it's very surprising that they > haven't even considered buying or renting a strech of > coastal land to make a port there. This would avoid > the dangerous swampy area and could also if the port > is far enough in the west avoid many pirates from > Ierendi and the five shires. But then they need to construct and maintain supply lines and trade routes either through the Streel delta and along the coast (a route that would be painfully vulnerable to Minrothaddan, Ierendian and Hin privateers, all with an interest in preventing the rise of another sea power) or they'd need to maintain a costly overland route. Do-able, but not profitable any time soon. > In a way, what i don't understand is why such an > "imperialistic" and rich nation is not naturally > inclined to conquer some lands after it conquered > markets. The real world republic of Gena in italy has > made this and i think it was taken as an exemple for > the creation of Darokin. Darokin could indeed be far more imperialistic, but where should it conquer? It expends so much of its military in securing the borders with the Broken Lands (how many lives has Corunglain cost them?), the Shires would be a tough nut to crack, Ethengarian horsemen would have a huge advantage in their own terrain (as would the Elves/Shadow Elves and the Dwarves), and Glantri would seem to be a foolish place to invade. Karameikos might be an appropriate target, but Thyatis couldn't sit back while that happened. Ylarum is a possibility, but I can't imagine the Darokinian army wanting to march across the desert on that kind of campaign, and I can't imagine them wanting to hold a hostile Ylari population subservient. That leaves Atraughin (possible, but probably only the lowlands) and Sind (the Master would counter-strike fast and hard if Darokin were to invade). > It is as if Darokin had been put under some powerful > geas not to expend its borders. Most nations of the KW > always try to extend their borders with the exception > of few reclusive ones or at lest they would not lose > an opportunity to do so. It would be tactically difficult for them to hold much foreign territory, but you are right that border disputes could be a lot more common than they are. > and there, what have we: > a powerful nation, with a powerful and unoccupied > army, (most part of the year). They always had > problems with the tiger or viper clans. > these lands are wild, probably full of untapped > ressources. > strategically, it is also another path for a potential > invasion from the west (Hule), especially once the > sind/amsorak region has been secured. It might be appropriate for the Western Defense league to look at this; their Southern flank is horribly exposed, and were the Master to find powerful allies in Atraughin they would be horribly vulnerable. Having a strong naval base on the Atraughin coast would benefit Ierendi, Darokin, Minrothad, Karameikos, the Shires and even far away Glantri, Alfheim/Shadow Elf lands and the Dwarves; anyone wanting to oppose the Master. And were Darokin to fund the building of the port, sponsor and lead the negotiations with Atraughin clan leaders and open the port for Known World vessels, they might find that they would gain military support from the other sea powers. That's all supposing that Hule is viewed as a greater threat than Darokinian expansion, which it would be. > and they they do nothing.It surprises me that's all. > despite our simpathy for atruaghin clans, we all > noticed that this was not the most obvious nation in > the region. the plateau itself is a god place to have > such cultures, but the bottom of the plateau could > easily have been conquered by most armies of the KW. > > it's giving me an idea. i'll share that one later with > you, once i've worked it up. In my own campaign, the lowlands became occupied by elves following the shadow elf invasion; they would certainly support such a plan, as they need all of the allies they can get. Hmmm... Intriguing indeed! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 03:14:07 -0800 From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: establishing a port facilities in Atruagin i do support the idea of having a clan or two from former alfheim in those forests. establishing a shield state would benefit them all. this could also be encouraged by the atruagin themselves (those from upper plateau) as this would provide them with more markets for their productions. I remember that alphatian invaded this region following the WotI events. and they were not even a great number of soldiers. I could see the Heldannic Order providing help and establishing an abbey or a commandery or two in the region to provide food and to secure the surrounding lands (around the port). They have had relations with the master but i don't think that the new Heldannic Order would pursue this relation much longer. they want to secure a direct route to northern davania where they have great expectations for the future. plus joining the western defense league (which they might already have done) would certainly make them more civilized than they were. --- Colin Davidson wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Thibault Sarlat" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 8:35 AM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Question about Darokin > > > > Thanks Collin > > > > but given the fact that atruagin is not a big > power > > compared to darokin, it's very surprising that > they > > haven't even considered buying or renting a strech > of > > coastal land to make a port there. This would > avoid > > the dangerous swampy area and could also if the > port > > is far enough in the west avoid many pirates from > > Ierendi and the five shires. > > But then they need to construct and maintain supply > lines and trade routes > either through the Streel delta and along the coast > (a route that would be > painfully vulnerable to Minrothaddan, Ierendian and > Hin privateers, all with > an interest in preventing the rise of another sea > power) or they'd need to > maintain a costly overland route. Do-able, but not > profitable any time soon. > > > In a way, what i don't understand is why such an > > "imperialistic" and rich nation is not naturally > > inclined to conquer some lands after it conquered > > markets. The real world republic of Gena in italy > has > > made this and i think it was taken as an exemple > for > > the creation of Darokin. > > Darokin could indeed be far more imperialistic, but > where should it conquer? > It expends so much of its military in securing the > borders with the Broken > Lands (how many lives has Corunglain cost them?), > the Shires would be a > tough nut to crack, Ethengarian horsemen would have > a huge advantage in > their own terrain (as would the Elves/Shadow Elves > and the Dwarves), and > Glantri would seem to be a foolish place to invade. > Karameikos might be an > appropriate target, but Thyatis couldn't sit back > while that happened. > Ylarum is a possibility, but I can't imagine the > Darokinian army wanting to > march across the desert on that kind of campaign, > and I can't imagine them > wanting to hold a hostile Ylari population > subservient. That leaves > Atraughin (possible, but probably only the lowlands) > and Sind (the Master > would counter-strike fast and hard if Darokin were > to invade). > > > It is as if Darokin had been put under some > powerful > > geas not to expend its borders. Most nations of > the KW > > always try to extend their borders with the > exception > > of few reclusive ones or at lest they would not > lose > > an opportunity to do so. > > It would be tactically difficult for them to hold > much foreign territory, > but you are right that border disputes could be a > lot more common than they > are. > > > and there, what have we: > > a powerful nation, with a powerful and unoccupied > > army, (most part of the year). They always had > > problems with the tiger or viper clans. > > these lands are wild, probably full of untapped > > ressources. > > strategically, it is also another path for a > potential > > invasion from the west (Hule), especially once the > > sind/amsorak region has been secured. > > It might be appropriate for the Western Defense > league to look at this; > their Southern flank is horribly exposed, and were > the Master to find > powerful allies in Atraughin they would be horribly > vulnerable. Having a > strong naval base on the Atraughin coast would > benefit Ierendi, Darokin, > Minrothad, Karameikos, the Shires and even far away > Glantri, Alfheim/Shadow > Elf lands and the Dwarves; anyone wanting to oppose > the Master. And were > Darokin to fund the building of the port, sponsor > and lead the negotiations > with Atraughin clan leaders and open the port for > Known World vessels, they > might find that they would gain military support > from the other sea powers. > That's all supposing that Hule is viewed as a > greater threat than Darokinian > expansion, which it would be. > > > and they they do nothing.It surprises me that's > all. > > despite our simpathy for atruaghin clans, we all > > noticed that this was not the most obvious nation > in > > the region. the plateau itself is a god place to > have > > such cultures, but the bottom of the plateau could > > easily have been conquered by most armies of the > KW. > > > > it's giving me an idea. i'll share that one later > with > > you, once i've worked it up. > > In my own campaign, the lowlands became occupied by > elves following the > shadow elf invasion; they would certainly support > such a plan, as they need > all of the allies they can get. Hmmm... Intriguing > indeed! > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ===== Thibault SARLAT a.k.a Clenarius www.mystara.fr.st ICQ 16622177 MSN Messenger: clenarius@hotmail.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:39:54 +0100 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Atruaghin Languages? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Theisen" To: > My first thought was that he might have used Nahuatl (Aztec) for the Tiger Clan, but the vocabularies don't match up. I've tried looking at a ton of Uto-Aztecan languages, but can't seem to find anything that matches exactly. Does anyone else have any ideas, or should I just assume he made up the words, and move on from there? I think the words for the Tiger clan are invented, but they seem to me a lot more Mayan than Nahuatl. For the Bear clan, I think they are inspired by the Hopi tribe, but I don't know from where the few words of the gazeteer come from.... bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:19:29 -0000 From: Colin Davidson Subject: Re: establishing a port facilities in Atruagin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thibault Sarlat" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 11:14 AM Subject: [MYSTARA] establishing a port facilities in Atruagin > i do support the idea of having a clan or two from > former alfheim in those forests. > establishing a shield state would benefit them all. > this could also be encouraged by the atruagin > themselves (those from upper plateau) as this would > provide them with more markets for their productions. But that might throw a spanner in the works, mightn't it? Haven't the shadow elves already made some moves towards conciliation and trade with their neighbours? How would their involvement in the Western Defense league (and remember, they can muster a LOT of elfpower should they be asked) be affected by asking them to be involved with belligerent ex-Alfheim residents? This is a difficult choice for the rest of the League. Do they appease the Shadow Elved by excluding the Alfheim elves (and thus risk the support of the new local inhabitants where the port/base/city is to be built) or do they risk the support of the Shadow Elves by siding with a smaller faction of elves for a strategic goal (thus potentially losing the greatest ally the defense leage could have?). I suspect the latter would be the case (assuming support for the Alfheim elves from some of the involved partners, namely Glantri, Mirothad and Rockhome). > I remember that alphatian invaded this region > following the WotI events. and they were not even a > great number of soldiers. > > I could see the Heldannic Order providing help and > establishing an abbey or a commandery or two in the > region to provide food and to secure the surrounding > lands (around the port). They have had relations with > the master but i don't think that the new Heldannic > Order would pursue this relation much longer. > they want to secure a direct route to northern davania > where they have great expectations for the future. > plus joining the western defense league (which they > might already have done) would certainly make them > more civilized than they were. I've held back from having the Knights of Vanya joining the league. The idea of a free thinking, chaotic, glorious band of warriors who must wage war to please their patron (the goddess of warfare herself) joining such a coalition is quite unthinkable to me. They seem more likely to try to infiltrate and sabotage such an organisation, and then throw their weight heartily behind one side or another in any resulting conflict. Of course, in my campaign, in which Alphatia was saved from going under the waves, the politics becomes even more complex! :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:27:56 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Where in the world is Rahasia? The "official" location of Rahasia places it in the Radlebb woods in Karameikos. It doesn't really fit there either though, especially with the eastern feel to it. I wrote an article on it linking the Opal Eye with the Eye of Traldar, which can be found at starflung once. Some suggested at that time that it would be better to place it near Sindh as the Eastern Feel of Rahasia is more Indian than Arab. Placing it in Minrothad as you suggest would work too though. In any case I like the Sinbad=Minroth theory. This would explain why Minroth is such a hands off Immortal aswell since he is probably off on one of his travels in the far reaches of the multiverse, possibly in the service of the Old Ones. This helps flesh out Minroth and allows us to leave the Sinbad name behind. I'll send my PCs off looking for the Rainbow Scarf of Minroth next.... Håvard --- Chris Cherrington skrev: > Where in the world is Rahasia? This is one of my > favorite modules. I first played this module at a > convention in Hartford many years ago (got to play > another adventure DM’ed by Gygax the same weekend). > These Arabic flavored Siswa elves are nowhere to be > found near a Dwarven built temple (the showing of > friendship between elves and dwarves). Could these > Siswa be woodelves from Minrothad living near the > Dwarven island? Here are some theories to suggest > such an item… > 3 immortal candidates adventured in Minrothad to > achieve immortality, Sinbad, Minroth and Al Kalim. > We know Sinbad’s and Al Kalim’s sponsor was the Old > Man of the Sea, but we don’t know Minroth’s. Was it > not a clever dwarf that invented the whole story > anyways about Minroth, to increase tourism and/or > create a national character? Could not Minroth be > none other than Sinbad? Making Minroth a > proto-Ylari and not Nithian? I mean nobody is > supposed to know about Nithians, but Ylari people > live where once Nithians did, so why not invent an > Ylari native as a Nithian when you want to sound > very mysterious and powerful to other bigger and > badder nations? (Read my previous posts that the > whole nation of humans and elves on Minrothad > created a fantastic lie to promote their wares and > build their mercantile kingdom). > Anyway, woodelves from Minrothad would be more > inclined to turn to a foreign religion than any > other elven clan living near Ylari, and worshipers > of Al Kalim regularly follow his path to Minrothad > as a pilgrimage. Al Kalim followed the same route > as fables mentioned his previous candidate, Sinbad. > Dwarves also were invited to build in the Guilds. > Could not part of the agreement made, to include > building a temple near Al Kalim’s or Minroth’s or > Sinbad’s Pilgrimage route, or near its zenith? ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:00:33 +0100 From: Bertrand Lhoyez Subject: Re: Mystara in Dragon Hi all ! what is this unofficial Cynidicea Gaz you're talking of ? Where can i find it ? -------------------- while this is not incompatible with B4, it differs from Zargon's origins (and knowledge of it) in the unofficial Cynidicea Gaz. -------------- -----Original Message----- From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Herve Musseau Sent: mardi 23 decembre 2003 21:19 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Mystara in Dragon Alright, so which article did I not review as yet? Ah yes, the Mystaran article :) Mystara: Return to the Lost City, by Michael Mearls, 5-page article starting on page 88. article contents: The article recounts the history of the Cynidiceans, describes the main elements of the lost city (including a map), describes the four cults and their goals, gives statistics for the infamous Zargon, and describes (with rules) the drug that makes the Cynidiceans fall into their eerie dream-state. my opinion: The article repeats elements of B4, but with a twist: it is set in the close future of the module, as NPCs (maybe from the author's campaign) have "played" the adventure from B4. However, they failed to completely defeat Zargon, so there are some changes to the setting as a result, even though things are mostly unchanged. The article gives 3E stats for Zargon, and, well, he's a tough bastard -- not at all like the Zargon of B4. The article says he does not remember his origins, and only suggestions are given; while this is not incompatible with B4, it differs from Zargon's origins (and knowledge of it) in the unofficial Cynidicea Gaz. Likewise, the Elixir of Fantasy and its use differ from those in the gaz (and, I believe, is also not exactly like B4). Note that the (unnamed in B4) underground lake is here called Lake Moldvay (after the author of B4). ===== ___________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 08:18:52 -0500 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Where in the world is Rahasia? Okay, I reread the Ylari and Minrothad Gazetteers. That punched more holes in my theories than the holes in Minrothad’s timeline. There are some interesting considerations to contend with. Minroth did achieve immortality, but through the sphere of Matter, since Al Kalim followed Sinbad’s tales, through the sphere of Time, that would not be a possibility. Unless, Minroth and Sinbad are the one and the same, and Minroth is actually trying the path of polymath within the spheres. This just means there really must be a real powerful artifact hidden somewhere in Minrothad, maybe something that caused the cataclysms, or even causes the mysterious fogs and water sprouts. Other things to consider, Meditor elves are a subrace of elves. Hard to imagine considering the short time span, plus the resemblance to Shadow Elves. The Siswa have an Arabic or middle eastern feel to them, and 2 Meditor clans seem to stand out by name, Kasan and Elsan. Another factor is the Alphatian Mon astery on one of the islands, inhabited by humans, but the Master there did travel abroad to learn more of the Alphatian branch of mysticism, which is a different branch than the Sindhi side (a more animistic approach to mysticism). Half the human population was Alphatian before the lycanthrope purge by elves (only a few red heads remain). Ylari was mixed with some Alphatian and Thyatian bloodlines (probably the more coastal Nicosteans, who are the sea merchants of Ylaruam). If the Ylari were originally from the Isle of Dawn (non-cannon), could that culture have some influence on elven refugees from Glantri’s second explosion? These elves further split, half becoming the Meditor (or 3 clans that meet the Meditor), the other half remaining near the Shadow Coast to latter be influenced by the Espa from Mishler’s story line of the Belcadiz. This would give the Belcadiz a commonality to the Espa’s influence from the Ylari culture. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 08:20:30 -0500 From: Mischa Gelman Subject: Re: Mystara in Dragon On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Bertrand Lhoyez wrote: > what is this unofficial Cynidicea Gaz you're talking of ? Where can i find > it ? http://dnd.starflung.com/cynidgaz.html - Mischa [The Scopes Trial] was, in many respects, a nontrial over a nonlaw, with a nondefendant backed by nonsupporters. Its most famous moment involved nontestimony by a nonexpert. - Garry Wills ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:45:30 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Where in the world is Rahasia? Note that at least according to the original Immortal set, immortals could switch Sphere after achieving immortality. OTOH, Im getting more and more inclined to having Sinbad=Minroth. When did he achieve immortality anyways? On the Meditor issue, the split may have occurred at an earlier point in history, and not _only_ caused by Minrothad becoming Islands. Also, magic is always a possibility when it copmes to elves adapting to their environment. Shadowelves developed pretty quickly too... Havard --- Chris Cherrington skrev: > Okay, I reread the Ylari and Minrothad Gazetteers. > That punched more holes in my theories than the > holes in Minrothad’s timeline. There are some > interesting considerations to contend with. Minroth > did achieve immortality, but through the sphere of > Matter, since Al Kalim followed Sinbad’s tales, > through the sphere of Time, that would not be a > possibility. Unless, Minroth and Sinbad are the one > and the same, and Minroth is actually trying the > path of polymath within the spheres. This just > means there really must be a real powerful artifact > hidden somewhere in Minrothad, maybe something that > caused the cataclysms, or even causes the mysterious > fogs and water sprouts. Other things to consider, > Meditor elves are a subrace of elves. Hard to > imagine considering the short time span, plus the > resemblance to Shadow Elves. The Siswa have an > Arabic or middle eastern feel to them, and 2 Meditor > clans seem to stand out by name, Kasan and Elsan. > Another factor is the Alphatian Monastery on one of > the islands, inhabited by humans, but the Master > there did travel abroad to learn more of the > Alphatian branch of mysticism, which is a different > branch than the Sindhi side (a more animistic > approach to mysticism). Half the human population > was Alphatian before the lycanthrope purge by elves > (only a few red heads remain). Ylari was mixed with > some Alphatian and Thyatian bloodlines (probably the > more coastal Nicosteans, who are the sea merchants > of Ylaruam). If the Ylari were originally from the > Isle of Dawn (non-cannon), could that culture have > some influence on elven refugees from Glantri’s > second explosion? These elves further split, half > becoming the Meditor (or 3 clans that meet the > Meditor), the other half remaining near the Shadow > Coast to latter be influenced by the Espa from > Mishler’s story line of the Belcadiz. This would > give the Belcadiz a commonality to the Espa’s > influence from the Ylari culture. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 07:01:08 -0800 From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: Re: establishing a port facilities in Atruagin and the HK i agree with you about the old HK. But since i am writing a lot for the almanach events for 1019, i had the opportunity to work with Geoff the great (and Terrible Hervé) . my writings mainly concern polakatsikes (more than 100 events) But since i am also making the Gaz 15: The Heldannic Empire, i think i might consider polishing the order a little bit. they won't be so chaotic (not chaotic at all), they wont be so warlike (though they still like a good old battle to prove their might). Instead they would try to spread the faith of Vanya using all the kind of conquests (war, conversion, exemple, economy, magic demonstrations, culture) Of course this would not be made in a blink of an eye, but the Bruce heard idea of making them much like the Templar or the Hospitalier Order appeal to me. They would still be a standard in the KW for warfare, but they would rather intervene warlikely only out of the KW region (so kicking some Hulean ass is more than likely, or battling over in the Savage coast for a preferencial agreement on trade is also possible. what they want to offer to the world is a rather secure place to raise children (they shall found commanderies and abbeys almost everywhere on Mystara and i pity those who would try to stop them...) so in a way, once the order has fulfilled its mutation, joining the WDL is not unthinkable... nor is founding fortified abbeys in southern atruagin... behind the scene, vanya is trying to convert as much people to her faith since she wants to play a bigger role in the hierarchy of her sphere..anyway, that's my guess. --- Colin Davidson wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Thibault Sarlat" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 11:14 AM > Subject: [MYSTARA] establishing a port facilities in > Atruagin > > > > i do support the idea of having a clan or two from > > former alfheim in those forests. > > establishing a shield state would benefit them > all. > > this could also be encouraged by the atruagin > > themselves (those from upper plateau) as this > would > > provide them with more markets for their > productions. > > But that might throw a spanner in the works, > mightn't it? Haven't the shadow > elves already made some moves towards conciliation > and trade with their > neighbours? How would their involvement in the > Western Defense league (and > remember, they can muster a LOT of elfpower should > they be asked) be > affected by asking them to be involved with > belligerent ex-Alfheim > residents? > > This is a difficult choice for the rest of the > League. Do they appease the > Shadow Elved by excluding the Alfheim elves (and > thus risk the support of > the new local inhabitants where the port/base/city > is to be built) or do > they risk the support of the Shadow Elves by siding > with a smaller faction > of elves for a strategic goal (thus potentially > losing the greatest ally the > defense leage could have?). I suspect the latter > would be the case (assuming > support for the Alfheim elves from some of the > involved partners, namely > Glantri, Mirothad and Rockhome). > > > I remember that alphatian invaded this region > > following the WotI events. and they were not even > a > > great number of soldiers. > > > > I could see the Heldannic Order providing help and > > establishing an abbey or a commandery or two in > the > > region to provide food and to secure the > surrounding > > lands (around the port). They have had relations > with > > the master but i don't think that the new > Heldannic > > Order would pursue this relation much longer. > > they want to secure a direct route to northern > davania > > where they have great expectations for the future. > > plus joining the western defense league (which > they > > might already have done) would certainly make them > > more civilized than they were. > > I've held back from having the Knights of Vanya > joining the league. The idea > of a free thinking, chaotic, glorious band of > warriors who must wage war to > please their patron (the goddess of warfare herself) > joining such a > coalition is quite unthinkable to me. They seem more > likely to try to > infiltrate and sabotage such an organisation, and > then throw their weight > heartily behind one side or another in any resulting > conflict. > > Of course, in my campaign, in which Alphatia was > saved from going under the > waves, the politics becomes even more complex! :) > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ===== Thibault SARLAT a.k.a Clenarius www.mystara.fr.st ICQ 16622177 MSN Messenger: clenarius@hotmail.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:38:09 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Extended Northmen Pantheon ver. 1.5 Francisco! I was actually thinking about doing this myself, but you beat me to it! Actually, I really like many of your decisions. My variant had: 1) HW names for the most common immortals. To make things a litle more different from the real world, yet save the Viking flair.. Odin=Wotan Thor=Donar Freyj=Fredar Freyja=Fredara Loki=Lokar Hel=Idris 2)Bragi (Faunus). This would be the patron of Bards and not Tyr. Tyr is a patron of warfare. 3)Sol (Ixion), patron of the Sun 4)Mane (Asterius), patron of the moon. 5)I'd have Gorzziok as Aegir. Protius as Njord and the Spooming Nooga 6)I like your version of Baldur/Balder. In my original version, I had him and Forsetti be the same guy, since Forsetti doesnt have much of a portfolio anyways... 7)Elde (Khoronus) Patron of Age and aging. Not so much a goddess as a force fo nature which even the Immortals were powerless against. 8)Idunn (Ordana) Goddess of rebirth, keeper of the appletree 9) Skadi (Diulanna) Patroness of Skiing 10) As Andrew pointed out, Wayland should be in there. Hmmm...can't think of anyone else right now. There is probably no point in getting out of hand with this. My main idea was that I wanted to include the major immortals into the Northman pantheon aswell, as a large portion of Mystaras population seem to follow this faith. At least IMC this is the main religion in all of northeastern Brun. Håvard --- "Francisco V. Navarro V" skrev: > Hail Mystarans! > > > > Thank you for your generous comments on my > mythological treatise! > > > > I've edited my work and incorporated the comments in > the changes. So not so > very long after the original version 1.0, here's a > version 1.5! (Hmmm... > Seems like a familiar pattern in RPGs games, isn't > it?) > > > > Kit Navarro > > Mystaran Mythologer > > > > > > ========== > > > > The Extended Northmen Pantheon > > By Kit Navarro > > > > The Immortals of the Northmen are known for their > common interest in the > realms of Ostland, Vestlands and Soderfjord. Among > them, Odin, Hel, Thor, > Frey and Freya, Loki, and lastly Forsetta are the > seven most worshipped > patrons of the Northmen. But in recent years, other > Immortals have played > more active roles in the roles of mortal men and > their cults are rising into > prominence in the Northern Reaches. > > > > Njord, Patron of the Sea. (Protius) All seafaring > cultures worship the Old > Man of the Sea in one form or another, and the > Northmen are no exception. > This ancient yet temperamental Immortal rules over > the seas and oceans, > sometimes placid and generous of its bounties, often > times tempestuous and > dangerous. He is also the bringer of storms, and > Northmen sailors offer to > him to placate his wrath. > > > > The Norns are three eldritch and fearful Immortal > crones that mysteriously > appear to a mortal at the time of birth and death, > though Northmen myths > tell of heroes and even Immortals, who seek out the > Norns in the remotest > mountain crags for their wisdom, their power, and > their prophecies. By > tradition, the Norns are known as Skuld (Khoronus), > Keeper of the Unchanging > History, Patroness of the Past; Urd (Ordana), > Mistress of the Manifold > Paths, Patroness of the Present; and Verthandi, She > Who Sees the > Unforeseeable, Patroness of the Future. Modern > legends say that in a dark > cave atop a high and rocky peak in Norwold sit the > Norns (or at least their > mortal avatars), where the locals known them as the > Crones of Crystykk. > > > > Odur Sun-Lord. (Ixion) Though far less exalted than > Odin All-Father, the > Patron of the Sun has a following in the Northern > Reaches, as he does > elsewhere throughout Mystara. The Sun-Lord brings > warmth, light, and life to > the otherwise dark and bleak existence of the > Northmen, and the passage of > his sun-chariot across the skies mark the time for > planting, growth, and > harvest. > > > > Frigga (Valerias) may actually have been an earlier > more primitive Immortal > of fertility and nature of the ancient Neathar, > whose worship was later > subsumed by the more civilized cult of Freyja. But > in recent years, Frigga > has regained her popularity, in no small part due to > the identification with > the highly popular Thyatian Immortal Valerias. > Nowadays, she is also > worshipped as the Patroness of Romance, Marriage, > and Womanhood, > particularly by women who do not fight with the > sword-but use other means to > express their passions and fury. Some cultists of > Frigga have scandalously > suggested that she is the mate of Odin, a grave > heresy in the nation of > Ostland where the worship of Frigga has been > outlawed! > > > > Asgrod, Patron of Travelers and Merchants. > (Asterius) Only one myth ever > mentions the nimble Immortal Asgrod, who served as a > messenger of Odin from > Asgard. So quick in wit and feet was Asgrod that he > could journey to the > darkest depths of Hel unscathed. He was never truly > worshipped, until recent > cults imported by traders from Thyatis, Minrothad, > and even far-off Darokin. > Asgrod ensures safe, swift travel, and fair trades, > but unlike his foreign > counterpart, he wards against theft and > trickery-misdeeds inspired by Loki! > > > > Baldur, Patron of Rebirth and Renewal. (Razud) > Baldur is portrayed as an > eternally young, handsome man with bright green > eyes, and he rewards those > who are self-sufficient, self-reliant, and enduring > through hardships. His > worship began in the Alphatian colonists of > Norworld, but was eventually > introduced to the Northern Realms. His curious myth > revolves around his > Immortal death, which will herald the end of the > world or Ragnarok. But > disaster is averted as Baldur always returns, reborn > and renewed! Many > Northmen elders discount this myth as mere allegory: > the eternal cycles of > nature, the resilience of life, such as evergreen > through the harsh winters > (Baldur's holy symbol is the mistletoe.), while the > more politically-minded > interpret Ragnarok as the invasion of the > Alphatians. But the godi of Baldur > have demonstrated their Patron's will with > miraculous powers of restoration, > renewal, and even resurrection-a feat which has > elicited mixed and powerful > reactions. (Northmen consider returning from the > dead as cowardly and even > morally wrong, preferring to die courageously and > enter Valhalla. Raising > the dead and reincarnation are also the domains of > the sinister Immortal > Hel.) > > > > Tyras, the Immortal Bard. (Tiresias) Compared to > most of the grim and gloomy > Immortals of the Northern Reaches, Tyras is > relatively cheerful and > carefree. His role is to bring song, poetry, music, > and dance to the world, > but he also composes epics tales of legendary > deeds-or grand eulogies for > heroes in Valhalla. On occasion, Tyras is known to > let slip divine secrets > or knowledge of the future. > > > > Vuller (Zirchev) is the patron of hunters and > archers, and also protector of > wild beasts and game. He was never recognized as a > full Immortal (He was > merely known as the huntsman of Frey), until the > influence of the Alphatians > and other worshippers of Zirchev from Norworld and > Thyatis. Sentient forest > creatures, as well as werewolves, werebears, > wereboars, and other > === message truncated === ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 10:58:37 -0500 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Where in the world is Rahasia? > > From: Havard Faanes > > Note that at least according to the original Immortal > set, immortals could switch Sphere after achieving > immortality. OTOH, Im getting more and more inclined > to having Sinbad=Minroth. When did he achieve > immortality anyways? > Minroth achieved immortality rather quickly after settling on Colony Isles, around 1100BC. Sinbad, I don’t know, but if Al Kalim followed his path and ended in the same place as Minroth, Sinbad could be one of Minroth’s polymathed forms. So it would have to be pre-Nithia, possibly when the proto-Ylari where living on the Isle of Dawn? > On the Meditor issue, the split may have occurred at > an earlier point in history, and not _only_ caused by > Minrothad becoming Islands. Also, magic is always a > possibility when it copmes to elves adapting to their > environment. Shadowelves developed pretty quickly > too... > What I am suggesting is the Meditor clan mixed homogenously with ship building clans that were heavily influenced by proto-Ylari culture from the Isle of Dawn. These clans were affected by the Second Great Rain of Fire, and found they would die out if they did not mix their gene pool. Pre-Belcadiz elves learned a different way to survive. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 08:23:50 -0800 From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Mystara and Spelljammer >> > As for integrating Mystara into the larger SJ universe, I do so > "loosely". I don't tie in the MystaraSpace crystal sphere with the > other "Big Three". I've developed a Mystaraspace SJ campaign of > sorts built around the idea of Immortals expelling various cultures > from Mystara throughout time. First the Carnifex, then the > Blackmoorians, and finally the Nithians. I don't know if I've ever > posted it here, but if anyone is interested I can send some info to > the list. > > -John I'm interested:) << Sorry for the late response. The holidays and work have kept me away from the list for a while. I'll gather my notes together tonight and start posting them. -John Rule #85. I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button." from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:57:46 -0000 From: Colin Davidson Subject: Re: establishing a port facilities in Atruagin and the HK ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thibault Sarlat" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] establishing a port facilities in Atruagin and the HK > i agree with you about the old HK. > But since i am writing a lot for the almanach events > for 1019, i had the opportunity to work with Geoff the > great (and Terrible Hervé) . > my writings mainly concern polakatsikes (more than 100 > events) > But since i am also making the Gaz 15: The Heldannic > Empire, i think i might consider polishing the order a > little bit. > they won't be so chaotic (not chaotic at all), they > wont be so warlike (though they still like a good old > battle to prove their might). Instead they would try > to spread the faith of Vanya using all the kind of > conquests (war, conversion, exemple, economy, magic > demonstrations, culture) Of course this would not be > made in a blink of an eye, but the Bruce heard idea of > making them much like the Templar or the Hospitalier > Order appeal to me. They would still be a standard in > the KW for warfare, but they would rather intervene > warlikely only out of the KW region (so kicking some > Hulean ass is more than likely, or battling over in > the Savage coast for a preferencial agreement on trade > is also possible. Interesting; not the view I've taken of the Knights of Vanya in my campaign at all. They're interested in war for wars sake in my Mystara; they're the ones who knock over the ants nest to see whether it gets rebuilt better and stronger. They've picked the wrong fight on occasion, but their superb mobility means that they can change their base of operations without a hickup, and they're therefore ineradicable. > what they want to offer to the world is a rather > secure place to raise children (they shall found > commanderies and abbeys almost everywhere on Mystara > and i pity those who would try to stop them...) > so in a way, once the order has fulfilled its > mutation, joining the WDL is not unthinkable... > nor is founding fortified abbeys in southern > atruagin... No, from that perspective that's fine. It's not Knights of Vanya that I saw evolving, but there you go. > behind the scene, vanya is trying to convert as much > people to her faith since she wants to play a bigger > role in the hierarchy of her sphere..anyway, that's my > guess. That's internally consistent. For my own campaign, this is how I might handle this. Darokin will approach the rest of the league, which includes the Shadow Elf territories, with its plan. Darokin will fund the establishment of the port, and make it open to all other league members. They will already have an outline agreement with some Atraughin chieftains, and the Elves now in the area, so all they need is the military muscle at sea to make this work. That will be provided primarily by Ierendi, with Minrothad, Karameikos and the Shires also contributing. Engineering skill for the project could readily be sourced in Minrothad, Rockhome and Ierendi, manpower in would be sourced locally also. The Shadow Elves might hear of this in advance; the Knights of Vanya would have spies that telling them of this well in advance, and would certainly ensure that the Shadow Elves found out in time to try to scupper things. The PC's will be involved here at some point, probably as envoys from the far away Alphatian Empire, sent as representatives to the League. They will either get wind that the Shadow Elves know what's going on, or they may uncover the Vanyan spy ring before this happens, I haven't decided which. Then they can either try to appease the Shadow Elves, defeat the spy ring to stop any further leaks ruining the plan, or they can even ensure that the plan falls down by investigating Darokins plans and ensuring that this nation doesn't rise to prominence as a major sea power. This could potentially lead to a major war in the area; the Shadow Elves really would like an easy life, but they'll be damned if they see refugees from Alfehim become major military partners with Darokin and the rest of the league; the Knights of Vanya will be trying to stir things up before choosing which side to come to the aid of (possibly even ending up as the new power down in Coastal Atraughin...) Most likely, what will happen is that Darokin will get its port, supported mainly by the Ierendian navy, and will have an outlet for sea trade. Atraughin and the Elves in the area also have access to the port, which will remain freely open to League nations. The lowlands of Atraughin will effectively be patrolled, and a keen eye will face West towards the Master, and any danger from the Sea. But what about this for a potential plot twist: might not the Sea Elves of Minrothad, in my campaign still an independent nation, or even the Empire of Thyatis see an advantage in allying with the Shadow Elves, preventing Darokin from becoming a major competitor? Might they not throw the weight of Minrothad into preventing the league succeeding here? Suppose the Shadow Elves offer an alliance whereby they invade of lowland Atraughin, seeking to wipe out the remaining Alfheim elves there, to prevent them from becoming a threat, giving rights for the construction of the new port solely to Minrothad? If they launch an attack quickly enough, and Minrothad and the Shadow Elves subsequently offer the League rights to use the port and surrounding land to seal up their Southern flank against the Master, could Minrothad effectively deprive Darokin of the sea and the Shadow Elves deprive their enemies of allies? The Shadow Elves even gain some natural woodlands that aren't twisted and dying, and they've been wanting somewhere like that to study for years. The success of the Shadow Elf invasion will depend solely on how early the Knights of Vanya or Minrothad find out about Darokins plans; if they find out very late in the game, then the Shadow Elves wouldn't be able to muster an invasion force before the League commits itself. If they find out early on, they could invade and present the new status quo to the league as a fait accompli. Much opportunity for adventure here... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:20:06 -0500 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: establishing a port facilities in Atruagin and the HK Just to throw in another twist. What if the Alfheim elves that settle in the lowland wooded area begin to distrust Ilsundal and Mealiden? I mean they have been through a lot, and don't seem to get much sympathy. Atzanteotl could easily influence these or some of these elves by giving them Tiger Clan allies to clean house in the area. Eventually the two would fight eachother, but not before the elves trade many modern advances to the Tiger Clan, making them a more powerful influence next to the swamp. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:37:45 -0500 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: establishing a port facilities in Atruagin and the HK If Atzanteotl began planning ahead of time, he would have influenced lesser clans from Alfhiem to begin distrusting the Forest Ways of Ilsundal and Mealiden. If so, the Shadow Elf invasion proved it, so these lesser clans escape the other clans by the Sump, end up in Malpheggi, and begin their education with the Tiger Clan and settle and grow in the lowland wooded area of Autrughin. Entrepreneurial Darokins seeking out a port in this largely unclaimed area will be in for a huge surprise to find another clan of strange new elves (that would also be more in tune with real world politics than their Shadow Elf neighbors). These elves would be the new wild card, allied with the Tiger Clan, they may want to influence others in not supporting the rest of Autrughin’s plateau people and the Shadow Elves as well. They would want to ally themselves with Darokin, as they may need the protection if Loki wants to get a little revenge for Atzanteotl meddling in his Hulean affairs. Thi s may work, as previous posts for the Almanacs did not place any elven clans in this area, they were will hidden until now. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:50:45 +0100 From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: Re: establishing a port facilities in Atruagin and the HK i really like the way this soup is stirred now.. as long as i can put my little Knights in the fray..; i am happy. Thibault Sarlat. ICQ 16622177. Personal homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st thibault-sarlat@wanadoo.fr clenariusfr@yahoo.fr ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Cherrington" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 6:37 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] establishing a port facilities in Atruagin and the HK > If Atzanteotl began planning ahead of time, he would have influenced lesser clans from Alfhiem to begin distrusting the Forest Ways of Ilsundal and Mealiden. If so, the Shadow Elf invasion proved it, so these lesser clans escape the other clans by the Sump, end up in Malpheggi, and begin their education with the Tiger Clan and settle and grow in the lowland wooded area of Autrughin. Entrepreneurial Darokins seeking out a port in this largely unclaimed area will be in for a huge surprise to find another clan of strange new elves (that would also be more in tune with real world politics than their Shadow Elf neighbors). These elves would be the new wild card, allied with the Tiger Clan, they may want to influence others in not supporting the rest of Autrughin's plateau people and the Shadow Elves as well. They would want to ally themselves with Darokin, as they may need the protection if Loki wants to get a little revenge for Atzanteotl meddling in his Hulean affairs. This may work, as previous posts for the Almanacs did not place any elven clans in this area, they were will hidden until now. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 08:40:37 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Question about Darokin Thibault Sarlat wrote: > i know that Darokin has very few coasts, but it seems strange to me > that they have never tried to make attempts at building a big > merchant fleet. they do have the ressources, the need (to gain more markets > and new products) and they effectively would not rely on Minrothad > for ever (even less once Thyatis get his hold on it). IMO the problem is that they do not have the strength. They could certainly build a large fleet, and perhaps even train the sailors and marines, but then they would have a hard time defending from Ierendi, Minrothaddan and Hin privateers. In the event of a war, their naval bases (the two towns in the Streel delta) can be easily cut off from reinforcements, since the swamp is hard to cross, and their western flank is exposed to attacks from the Tiger Clan. > of ressources... I know that some savage coast nations have built > trade port on many continents (well, other continent than their), > why not the darokinian??? Simply because they're not a naval power, and Minrothad, Ierendi and Thyatis can be very aggressive in defending their monopoly of the Sea of Dread. A move in that sense from Darokin would probably trigger a response from one or all of these three powers, something that Darokin, with its limited military ability, cannot afford. Of course, with a massive effort they could, as I said before, build a sizeable fleet, but the current naval powers would react before Darokin could close the gap they have in seamanship and experience. So yes, they could establish a port somewhere, but it is not in their best interest, since it would probably mean a war with the sea powers, something Darokin can hardly accept, if we consider that its borders require a lot of peacekeeping -- Tiger Clan, Orclands, Broken Lands can always take advantage of a lowered attention to launch dangerous attacks on the main cities, and there's always the Master ready to strike. That said, after WotI everything becomes worse for Darokin, since it shares a long border with the SE. In my outline for a "darker" Known World, the major victim was indeed Darokin, since it has three major regions (central Darokin, the two southern ports, and Selenica) divided by dangerous areas (the Malpheggi swamp and the SE-threatened caravan route to Selenica). These weak spots are bound to give the Darokinian leaders some serious problems, even in a not so dark future. And we did not even consider the internal politics -- which houses would benefit from a sea-based expansion? which would not benefit from it? -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 5 Jan 2004 to 6 Jan 2004 (#2004-7) ************************************************************