Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 23 Jun 2005 to 24 Jun 2005 (#2005-131) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 25/06/2005, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 9 messages totalling 562 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. My language is the hardest !! 2. My language is the hardest!!! (Was: New Heraldry Style) (4) 3. "Shadow Elves" in Dragon Mag 330 (2) 4. Replica Map - The Sea of Dread Submerged Lands from PC3 (2) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:39:47 +0300 From: Ville Lähde Subject: Re: My language is the hardest !! A few years ago during a "solo phase" in our main campaign, when PCs adventured alone and/or with their followers for two years in game-time and RW time, the group mage traveled through the Serpent peninsula. I hadn't read any canon stuff on that area then (Princess Ark or CoM), I devised the societies myself. As an experiment I created a simplistic language for an isolated tribe. It had some special features that I had picked up from my linguistics classes: "click" consonants, click-like sounds that one makes with tongue or throat (glottis); and plural as repetition of the word, like in some Hawaijian languages. And so on. The player actually learned the basics of the language during the sessions, when the PC tried to converse with the village elders. Language that include such original basic elements are often harder to master, especially if these elements carry significant meaning. That is because those dimensions of language-use are usually learned during childhood and later on they are very hard to appropriate in other languages. My language Finnish is a good example. Finnish isn't exceptionally hard to learn for "kitchen use". Chris is right in that most languages can be learned thus through praxis. But it is exeptionally hard to learn complicated Finnish, because many of the important meaning-transferring elements are in the "fundamental" level (duration of consonants and vowels etc.) One good example is a partitive form which has a host of meanings in Finnish, but it is very hard to learn for most foreginers - and the mistakes are significant. But of course this difficulty is lower if one's own language has similar features. Not only family languages, but languages that offer a model of sorts to grasp central features of a new language are very helpful. Thus if one's language distinquishes meanigns with the difference between "kk" and "k" for example, Finnish is easier. Back to Mystara: I have always considered some languages like Rockhome Dwarven to be so "alien" in their basic features that they are very hard to learn, especially to become fluent at. Orkish on the other hand I consider a Pigdin ("trade" language") due to the long history of migrations, and it would be much easier to learn due to the shared features with other languaged. Well, I'm off for my holidays. So for the next 3-4 weeks I won't read my mails often. Yours, Ville ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:15:25 -0700 From: "Ohad Shaham (Morphail)" Subject: Re: My language is the hardest!!! (Was: New Heraldry Style) Here's my two Shekels... I speak Hebrew and English, and currently study Spanish. I taught english and hebrew grammer to kids of varying ages and came to some conclusions (which might be wrong, but heck, I won't let THAT stop me). Spanish grammer is by far more easy for me to grasp than both other languages in spite of the age I chose to start with it. It's not that it simpler than English or Hebrew. It has dozens of tenses (or "times") for verbs (hebrew has three times, although lots of different ways to subjegate a verb). What makes Spanish simple is that it makes sense! It is as if someone sat down and wrote the rules for everything. There are lots of irregularities and exceptions to rules but they all have understandable logic. Learning Spanish also helpes me understand which english words have their origin in Latin or French. Hebrew is a hard language to learn if you try to learn the rules. They simply don't make sense! Most are not used correctly by most Israelies, others have no verbal relevence and are just for writing. The source of this mess are the ancient origins of the language and the fact that unlike spanish or english, it wasn't used for millenia for day to day needs. As for English, my favorite thing about English its vast vocabulary, which helps select the right word for an exact description or feeling. Think about the "sizes" in the new D&D rules- large, huge, collosal, gargantuan and so on, for basically saying "big"... Ohad Shaham (Morphail) --- Steven Carter wrote: > I'm a Canadian Anglophone. French wasn't difficult > and I can still > read a good deal and remember a smattering. > Comparatively I found > German horrendously difficult and forgot all of it. > I'm learning > Cantonese now. Not an enormous challenge. > > Interest and motivation are part of it. I think part > of the difficulty > with German was the number of _similarities_ with > English. Another is > maturity. > > On 6/23/05, Angelo Bertolli > wrote: > > Thorfinn Tait wrote: > > > > >For example, many people will tell you that > Japanese is "one of the hardest > > >languages to learn", and it's a stereotype among > learners of Japanese. But > > >I haven't found any such thing in the six years > I've been learning. Yes, > > >some areas require more practice and studying > than others, but I don't see > > >that it's difficult - it just takes time. Put in > the time, and you will get > > >the results. Then again, I was highly motivated > for the first 4 years of my > > >study... > > > > > > > > > > > I took Japanese, and I definitely thought that > learning how to speak > > Japanese was difficult, but I never had the > opinion that it was > > inherently harder than another language. In fact, > I sort of got the > > impression that it was easier because there is no > work in learning new > > sounds. I still can't hear some chinese or arabic > sounds. > > > > But then again, I also pretty much decided that I > wasn't going to care > > very much about reading/writing japanese. > > > > > Anyway this is an interesting topic to > discuss, especially given the > > >multinational makeup of this list. Does anyone > disagree with my ideas? :-) > > > > > > > > I just wanted to add that it also depends on a > couple of other things: > > 1) The level at which you can make mistakes in a > language and still be > > considered acceptable (and understandable) > > 2) The level at which you think in terms of the > language. > > > > #2 is really important because in the case of > Japanese, I think it's > > much harder to think in English "translate on the > fly" than to just > > think in Japanese when you want to speak in > Japanese. That's because of > > the different structure. It's much easier to > "translate on the fly" > > another European language because many of the > structures are similar. > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:18:53 -0700 From: "Ohad Shaham (Morphail)" Subject: "Shadow Elves" in Dragon Mag 330 Did anyone notice the article about Eberron drow that call themselves "shadow elves"? How rude! and no reference to Mystara either. Shame Ohad (Morphail) ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 01:05:33 +0900 From: Thorfinn Tait Subject: Replica Map - The Sea of Dread Submerged Lands from PC3 The Mystara Message Board seems to be down, as I haven't been able to get to it all day. So, I'm posting the link to today's map here for a change. :-) http://www.maeshowe.co.uk/thorf/pc3-submerged-lands-8.png While I'm here, I'd also like to point out that I recently posted an index to all of my maps so far, in the first post of my mapping thread at the MMB. Just head over there and look for my "Thorf's Secret Project: Stage One" thread. (When the board is back up, that is...) If you haven't seen any of my maps yet, please go and have a look. I'd love to hear your comments. ^^ Thorfinn ============================================ Thorfinn Tait --------- thorf @ chokai.ne.jp Land of the Rising Sun, 5 years and counting ============================================ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:11:15 -0400 From: John Hofmann Subject: Re: My language is the hardest!!! (Was: New Heraldry Style) >> From my friends (both students and teachers) at the DLI (Defense Language Institute, the organization that teaches languages to US military linguists), Korean is, by far, the hardest language for native speakers of English to learn. Chinese has the longest "ramp up" time because of the tones. People who have a natural ability to mimic sounds will pick Chinese tones up quickly, but those who don't will probably never get it. Japanese is also in the "group 4" languages (hardest languages to learn for native speakers of English). Japanese grammar comes from Korean grammar but is actually significantly simpler. Korean syllables are just as likely to end in a consonant as a vowel, so every grammatical patterns has two ways to do it whereas in Japanese there tends to only be one (I only studied japanese for a few months, so I can't say for sure but never learned a grammar pattern that had two "shapes"). Also Korean uses a ton of vocabulary from both Mandarin and Cantonese, but doesn't have the tones to differentiate the words which makes it tough to know the meaning of about 60% of Korean words when they're taken out of context along with the added difficulty of usually having 2 ways to say something. (ie, there are two different verbs for "to go out drinking" in Korean ... one from Chinese and one that's pure Korean. In addition, the Korean verb "ssu-da" means 4 different things because it comes from 4 different Chinese words that differ only in tone). I don't know how much of Japanese spoken vocabulary comes from Chinese. Korean also has about 15 different levels of politeness. Not sure how many Japanese has. In my time of learning and speaking Japanese, I never used any forms other than the polite form, but as Korea is a less formal society and Koreans tend to be a more passionate people, you have to know at least 4 forms of politeness when you first meet someone and you should know at least 1 or 2 more for when you start making friends or when you get mad at people and need to yell at them. When it comes to writing, the Koreans developed their own alphabet about 500 years ago that has 24 letters and takes about 4 hours to learn, whereas you need to knew a few thousand characters to be really literate in Japanese. Writing is one area where Japanese is significantly harder than Korean, although Chinese is going to blow them both away in terms of difficulty in learning to write. Most non-Chinese people I know who speak any Chinese at all (including myself) don't know how to read and write and only know the characters we learned from daily life in whatever part of asia we lived in. When you get to "Level 2" Korean (as defined by the South Korean government and Yonsei University -- there are 6 levels, I think), you should know in the neighborhood of 100 ways to conjugate verbs, all of which have 2 ways of doing it. I only really know about Asian and Germanic languages, so I'd happily defer to other people's knowledge when it comes to other languages. Hopefully this is contributing to the discussion. Heh. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:15:53 -0700 From: "Ohad Shaham (Morphail)" Subject: Re: My language is the hardest!!! (Was: New Heraldry Style) Wow, we have a winner! (I hope). Remind me not to try an east-asian language for my next evening course... Morphail --- John Hofmann wrote: > From my friends (both students and teachers) at the > DLI (Defense Language > Institute, the organization that teaches languages > to US military > linguists), Korean is, by far, the hardest language > for native speakers of > English to learn. Chinese has the longest "ramp up" > time because of the > tones. People who have a natural ability to mimic > sounds will pick Chinese > tones up quickly, but those who don't will probably > never get it. > > Japanese is also in the "group 4" languages (hardest > languages to learn for > native speakers of English). Japanese grammar comes > from Korean grammar but > is actually significantly simpler. Korean syllables > are just as likely to > end in a consonant as a vowel, so every grammatical > patterns has two ways to > do it whereas in Japanese there tends to only be one > (I only studied > japanese for a few months, so I can't say for sure > but never learned a > grammar pattern that had two "shapes"). Also Korean > uses a ton of > vocabulary from both Mandarin and Cantonese, but > doesn't have the tones to > differentiate the words which makes it tough to know > the meaning of about > 60% of Korean words when they're taken out of > context along with the added > difficulty of usually having 2 ways to say > something. (ie, there are two > different verbs for "to go out drinking" in Korean > ... one from Chinese and > one that's pure Korean. In addition, the Korean > verb "ssu-da" means 4 > different things because it comes from 4 different > Chinese words that differ > only in tone). I don't know how much of Japanese > spoken vocabulary comes > from Chinese. > > Korean also has about 15 different levels of > politeness. Not sure how many > Japanese has. In my time of learning and speaking > Japanese, I never used > any forms other than the polite form, but as Korea > is a less formal society > and Koreans tend to be a more passionate people, you > have to know at least 4 > forms of politeness when you first meet someone and > you should know at least > 1 or 2 more for when you start making friends or > when you get mad at people > and need to yell at them. > > When it comes to writing, the Koreans developed > their own alphabet about 500 > years ago that has 24 letters and takes about 4 > hours to learn, whereas you > need to knew a few thousand characters to be really > literate in Japanese. > Writing is one area where Japanese is significantly > harder than Korean, > although Chinese is going to blow them both away in > terms of difficulty in > learning to write. Most non-Chinese people I know > who speak any Chinese at > all (including myself) don't know how to read and > write and only know the > characters we learned from daily life in whatever > part of asia we lived in. > > When you get to "Level 2" Korean (as defined by the > South Korean government > and Yonsei University -- there are 6 levels, I > think), you should know in > the neighborhood of 100 ways to conjugate verbs, all > of which have 2 ways of > doing it. > > I only really know about Asian and Germanic > languages, so I'd happily defer > to other people's knowledge when it comes to other > languages. > > Hopefully this is contributing to the discussion. > Heh. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:07:03 EDT From: Erol Bayburt Subject: Re: Replica Map - The Sea of Dread Submerged Lands from PC3 (delurking) Applause! *Very* nice job, on all your maps. And in the sincerest form of flattery, I intend to imitate & steal :-) I noticed that you use Adobe Illustrator, and so I've downloaded a trial version of that software simply to convert the mapping files on your site. I don't know if I'll keep & buy it though, since my own preference is for Coreldraw. So I'm dotting .ai files with your symbols, and saving them using the "include pdf info" option, which allows Coreldraw 12 to open them. I would simply use your maps as-is, but I'm setting up to run a slightly modified Mystara. I've dubbed it "The Broken World" - Mystara some mumble thousand years in the future, after having been blown into fragments. There are now hundreds of worldlets, each enclosed in an unbreakable crystal sphere like a giant terrarium, with land & water on the bottom and air on the top. So I have the worldlet of Karamakos, the worldlet of Alfheim, the worldlet of Darokin, etc. This (and the fact that I'm using 3.5e D&D) means that a few changes need to be made, including to the maps. But your maps look like a real good starting point. ("Steal from the best," they say.) And that shattered-sphere design you use as a compass rose is perfect for my needs. Erol K. Bayburt ErolB1@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:28:03 -0500 From: Eric Anondson Subject: Re: "Shadow Elves" in Dragon Mag 330 On Jun 24, 2005, at 10:18 AM, Ohad Shaham (Morphail) wrote: > Did anyone notice the article about Eberron drow that > call themselves "shadow elves"? > How rude! > and no reference to Mystara either. > Shame The name is all they share in common. Period. And it isn't all Eberron drow who refer to themselves as "Shadow Elves", just one particular group of them isolated on the "Lost Continent" of Eberron. Personally, because Eberron has just two types of elves, statistic wise. Elves and drow, all other variations are cultural. Therefor, IMO, they should have called these guys "Shadow Drow". ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 23:07:47 -0400 From: John Hofmann Subject: Re: My language is the hardest!!! (Was: New Heraldry Style) > Wow, we have a winner! (I hope). > Remind me not to try an east-asian language for my > next evening course... > > Morphail It can be fun! I live in New York City where there are a ton of people from around the world, so I get a chance to speak Korean and Chinese to people all the time (my girlfriend is Korean and I live in Chinatown). There are few things in life as satisfying as speaking a deli store owner's native language to him when he least expects it. It's a lot of hard work, but how many things that are worth doing AREN'T hard work? Also, learning languages that are completely unrelated to your own give you a good insight into the way different people think., which helps as a DM. For example, all of the oriental adventures projects and DnD reference books completely miss the way different asian cultures think and do things, and it's a shame. If I ever get a chance to DM again, I want to include some asian-style cultures since I've had a chance to live there (in Asia) and see how things are different. Also, culture shock is a huge part of living in a truly foreign land, and it's something that is never ever addressed in a role playing game (that I've seen). To translate that into a game, imagine your PCs in a land that they've never been in. They go looking for a tavern, since that's what PCs do. They can't speak to anyone, so they can't get anything done. They've got a "tongues" spell of some sort? Great. That's not really going to help them, since they're going to make a social mistake of some sort that a native wouldn't. They probably look different, and that kind of thing weighs on the mind. Remind them that people are staring at them everywhere they go. They've never met people like this before, so they have no idea if the people are curious, hostile, friendly and interested, or what. They don't know the laws, they don't understand what's going on around them, and they don't know why things happen the way they do. It's a truly under represented, yet important, fact of life when living (even briefly) in a culture that's very different than your own. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 23 Jun 2005 to 24 Jun 2005 (#2005-131) ****************************************************************