Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 20 Jul 2005 to 22 Jul 2005 (#2005-142) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 23/07/2005, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 8 messages totalling 477 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. RW Equivalents to Mystaran nations (was: point me to a site?) (LONG) (4) 2. Equivalents to Mystaran nations (3) 3. RW Equivalents to Mystaran nations (was: point me to a site?) (LONG) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:47:39 -0700 From: Geoff Gander Subject: RW Equivalents to Mystaran nations (was: point me to a site?) (LONG) Good question - I think the Newbie Guide should address this, but I always thought this would be a useful file to have, to point out to people who ask, as it comes up every so often. Here is something that might help, dredged up from the MML archives and pasted together by me (my comments are numbered): Known World: Thyatis Roman/Byzantine Empire (1) Ylaruam Arabia Northern Reaches Viking culture (Vestland seem more advanced to me) Ethengar Mongols Glantri European Microcosm (France, Netherlands, Germany, etc.) Darokin Renaissance mercantile land power Minrothad Renaissance mercentile sea power (Venetians?) Ierendi Tropical island paradise Five Shires None - basically modelled on J.R.R. Tolkien's "Shire" Karameikos Mixture of Roman colonisers and Romanian natives Sind India Heldann Teutonic Knights (native Heldanners are based on Iceland) Savage Baronies: (2) Vilaverde Portugal Texeiras Brazil Narvaez Inquisition Spain Torreon Spanish colonies Almarron Mexico Guadalante Argentina Cimarron "Wild West" Other Savage Coast: Hule Ottoman Empire Bellayne England (3) Renardie France Eusdria Saxons Robrenn Gaul Wallara (4) Herath (5) Nimmur Babylon Eshu Babylon Yavdlom (6) Davania: Garganin Turkish (was a Hulean colony at one time) Kastelios et al Greek (7) Far West (created by Christian Constantin): Monzag Hungary Antasyn Albania Bulzan Romania Olgar Bulgaria Dvinzina Armenia Grouzhina Georgia Azardjian Azerbaijian Chengoush Northern Caucasus Kyurdukstan Kurdistan Sardjikjian Tadjikistan Douzbakjian Uzbekistan Balitan Baluchistan (SE Iran and SW Pakistan] Kazmen Kazakhstan Ksars Berberic, Anatolian troglodyte communities Sendarians Siberian Natives Boreans Siberian Natives Hyboreans Siberian Natives Yezchamenid Empire (also created by Christian): Darsia and Uvaraz Persia Zrakan Afghanistan Hattas the Hittites Yivja Phoenicia Mebirush Babylon Chura Assyria Midan Medes Draya Yemen COMMENTS (1) The old Expert set described Thyatis as being based on the Byzantine Empire, but the Gaz series made it more Roman. (2) Gargona and Saragon were not included in the listing I found, but I always thought they were based on Moorish Spain. I had always thought Slagovich et al. were based on the Balkans (i.e., Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, etc.), which would be appropriate given the presence of Hule nearby. (3) I tend to ignore the RS boxed set, which gave Bellayne Japanese elements - the original VotPA series described Bellayne as being English - and likely Elizabethan English at that. Bruce Heard, in a post to this List years ago, said he didn't really agree with some of the editorial decisions that led to the RS boxed set (going as far as to describe it as "the Nipponisation of Bellayne"). (4) Places names are decidedly Australian, leading me to believe the Wallarans are supposed to be based on the Aborigines. (5) Places names look Hebrew to me, but there is very little written on Herathian culture. (6) Hard to tell what Yavdlom is supposed to be, besides being Moldvay spelled backwards. IIRC, it is described somewhere as being based on Old Zimbabwe and similar ancient, advanced African cultures. (7) I would say the Davanian city-states are medieval Greek (as opposed to ancient Greek, perhaps like the pockets of Byzantine culture that survived in Anatolia as the empire was falling - Trebizond, etc. James Mishler had similar ideas, as I recall) Hope this helps, Geoff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:33:45 +0000 From: Gary Davies Subject: Re: RW Equivalents to Mystaran nations (was: point me to a site?) (LONG)





>(4) Places names are decidedly Australian, leading me to believe the
>Wallarans are supposed to be based on the Aborigines.

Also, IIRC, the VotPA article in Dragon gave stats for the boomerang.

Regards,

Gary

------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:59:28 +0200 From: Altair IV Subject: Equivalents to Mystaran nations A good work, really, Geoff! Let me issue some spare comment, though! > Northern Reaches Viking culture (Vestland seem more advanced to me) Yessirs! I did spend a lot of (gaming) time in the NR, and I can confirm... Ostland is definitely Viking, while Vestland tends to be a bit more "post-Viking" as a culture... I mean a culture derived from Viking roots, but melted with a more civilized, and stantial, environment... let's say Norman Duky? But do not forget Norwold... it's quite difficult to describe Norwold culture, because it is, maybe, the most war loving country, but has barely a sea tradition at all... maybe some Barbaric tribe, such as Longobards, would do... > Thyatis Roman/Byzantine Empire (1) Well, the apparent contrast may be solved, I think, linking Thyatis to an older period, when Byzantine culture and politics was still very Roman-controlled (IV-V century) > Glantri European Microcosm (France, Netherlands, Germany, etc.) Your definition is correct, but a bit vague... I do prefer to recognize in glantrian culture a pre-Renaissance flavour, related to those countries, and cities, particoularly fond of arts and sciences... I mean Paris, for instance, Boulogne or Neaples in Italy, and the like. > Darokin Renaissance mercantile land power Yes! Darokin is the tipical "common" culture, with merchant guilds and the like... Florence (de Medici, or Machiavelli period) is a good example > Five Shires None - basically modelled on J.R.R. Tolkien's "Shire" So Ireland, perhaps, would do... > Karameikos Mixture of Roman colonisers and Romanian natives What do you mean? I haved always thought of Karameikos as the tipical feudal pattern that is normally associated to Middle Ages... Sacred Roman Empire, as a good reference... Altair IV - the darkstar ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:44:46 -0700 From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Equivalents to Mystaran nations On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:59:28 +0200, Altair IV wrote: > Yessirs! I did spend a lot of (gaming) time in the NR, and I can confirm... > Ostland is definitely Viking, while Vestland tends to be a bit more > "post-Viking" as a culture... I mean a culture derived from Viking roots, > but melted with a more civilized, and stantial, environment... let's say > Norman Duky? That's a distinct possibility. > But do not forget Norwold... it's quite difficult to describe Norwold > culture, because it is, maybe, the most war loving country, but has barely a sea tradition at all... maybe some Barbaric tribe, such as Longobards, would do... I never really considered Norwold, I sort of see it as a medival melting pot/traditional fantasy nation. > Your definition [of Glantri] is correct, but a bit vague... I do prefer to recognize in glantrian culture a pre-Renaissance flavour, related to those countries, and cities, particoularly fond of arts and sciences... I mean Paris, for instance, Boulogne or Neaples in Italy, and the like. Sure - I merely described it as such to save time, but yes, you are absolutely right. > What do you mean? I haved always thought of Karameikos as the tipical feudal pattern that is normally associated to Middle Ages... Sacred Roman Empire, as a good reference... A good point, but I was approaching it from the standpoint of what the cultures were. From my understanding, the Holy Roman Empire (which, according to a famous quote, wasn't holy, Roman, or really an empire) was basically an amalgam of German, northern Italian, and Bohemian petty dominions, presided over loosely by an emperor who didn't always have complete control. You're right that Karameikos is presented as a generic fantasy realm (i.e, the "default setting"), but Karameikos doesn't follow the trend in that its cultures are clearly defined (which isn't always the case in other RPG products). The Traladaran place and family names are clearly Romanian (not a typical choice for a fantasy setting, IMO), and the Thyatian element adds a Roman overlay to it all. I admit that I know little of Roman history, which is why I didn't try to draw a connection between Karameikos and the Roman province of Dacia, and instead opted for the Romanian-peasants-with- Roman-upper-classes analogy, but even then that isn't exact, because by AC 1000 integration was happening to some extent under Stefan's rule. All this to say that yes, I agree Karameikos was intended by TSR to be the typical feudal nation, but that culturally it is very distinct, and has definite RW analogies (even if a country like it did not necessarily exist in the RW, the individual cultures did). Hope that makes sense, Geoff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:26:41 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Equivalents to Mystaran nations Altair IV ha scritto: > >> Northern Reaches Viking culture (Vestland seem more advanced to me) > > Yessirs! I did spend a lot of (gaming) time in the NR, and I can confirm... > Ostland is definitely Viking, while Vestland tends to be a bit more > "post-Viking" as a culture... I mean a culture derived from Viking roots, > but melted with a more civilized, and stantial, environment... let's say > Norman Duky? Ostland, Vestland and Soderfjord are closely modeled on Scandinavia in three different times -- Soderfjord is more related to the early clanic society (preserved in Iceland as well), Ostland is perhaps more Cnute the Great age, while Vestland is definitely more modern. > But do not forget Norwold... it's quite difficult to describe Norwold > culture, because it is, maybe, the most war loving country, but has barely a > sea tradition at all... maybe some Barbaric tribe, such as Longobards, would > do... Norwold is somewhat underspecified, with generic Antalian barbarians. >> Thyatis Roman/Byzantine Empire (1) > > Well, the apparent contrast may be solved, I think, linking Thyatis to an > older period, when Byzantine culture and politics was still very > Roman-controlled (IV-V century) There are references to the British Empire as well (RAF). >> Glantri European Microcosm (France, Netherlands, Germany, etc.) > > Your definition is correct, but a bit vague... I do prefer to recognize in > glantrian culture a pre-Renaissance flavour, related to those countries, and > cities, particoularly fond of arts and sciences... I mean Paris, for > instance, Boulogne or Neaples in Italy, and the like. Glantri has very specific references: - Glantri City: Venice (the channels, Tower of Sighs vs. Ponte dei Sospiri) - Caurenze: Italian principalities (the Medici or Estensi family lands) - Linden: the Netherlands - Aalban: Germany - Boldavia: Romania - Belcadiz: Spain - Krondahar: Central Asia - Nouvelle Averoigne: France - Crownguard: Scotland >> Karameikos Mixture of Roman colonisers and Romanian natives > > What do you mean? I haved always thought of Karameikos as the tipical feudal > pattern that is normally associated to Middle Ages... Sacred Roman Empire, > as a good reference... Karameikos is somewhat more like England after the Norman conquest, replacing the Saxons with the Traladarans (based on eastern europe) and the Normans with the Thyatians. GP ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:46:41 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: RW Equivalents to Mystaran nations (was: point me to a site?) (LONG) Some more comments: Geoff Gander ha scritto: > > Ylaruam Arabia More generally, the lands conquered by the arabs in their first wave of expansion, with differences between the various regions (Dythestenia and Nicostenia being modeled on the conquered areas of the Persian and Roman empire, and Makistan taking after central asia). > Minrothad Renaissance mercentile sea power (Venetians?) Minrothad is an oddball. It doesn't seem Venice to me, and the patois seems a creole thing. > Ierendi Tropical island paradise The Hawaii, as seen through 70's tv shows ;) > Renardie France Four Musketteers age ;) > Eusdria Saxons Uhm, it's more imperial, sort of Holy Roman Empire-time Germany. > Robrenn Gaul Asterix-based Gaul! > Nimmur Babylon More specifically, I'd say Assyrians. > (1) The old Expert set described Thyatis as being based on the Byzantine > Empire, but the Gaz series made it more Roman. Definitely. > (2) Gargona and Saragon were not included in the listing I found, but I > always thought they were based on Moorish Spain. Specifically, Saragon is based on Moorish Spain, and there is a significant amount of immigration from Ylaruam. Gargona is more a sea-oriented version of Torreon and Narvaez, so Spanish colonies in central America or the Carribeans. > I had always thought > Slagovich et al. were based on the Balkans (i.e., Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, > etc.), which would be appropriate given the presence of Hule nearby. Yes, Bruce also gave a different correspondent for each nation, the post should be somewhere in the Vaults. > (3) I tend to ignore the RS boxed set, which gave Bellayne Japanese > elements - the original VotPA series described Bellayne as being English - > and likely Elizabethan English at that. Bruce Heard, in a post to this > List years ago, said he didn't really agree with some of the editorial > decisions that led to the RS boxed set (going as far as to describe it > as "the Nipponisation of Bellayne"). If one goes by the AD&D version, urban Bellayne is still Elizabethan England, while the nomads are Japanese-like. > (4) Places names are decidedly Australian, leading me to believe the > Wallarans are supposed to be based on the Aborigines. Yes, they definitely are, at least in the AD&D version (corroborees, kangaroos, kookaburra) > (5) Places names look Hebrew to me, but there is very little written on > Herathian culture. Same to me, though IIRC Ohad once told me the name didn't make sense. I'd say that the name still have an ancient middle east sound. > (6) Hard to tell what Yavdlom is supposed to be, besides being Moldvay > spelled backwards. IIRC, it is described somewhere as being based on Old > Zimbabwe and similar ancient, advanced African cultures. It's definitely African. The language should be modeled on Swahili, at least. > (7) I would say the Davanian city-states are medieval Greek (as opposed to > ancient Greek, perhaps like the pockets of Byzantine culture that survived > in Anatolia as the empire was falling - Trebizond, etc. James Mishler had > similar ideas, as I recall) Uhm, I've always thought of them as being more ancient then medieval, but the descriptions are really too limited. GP ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:12:29 -0700 From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: RW Equivalents to Mystaran nations (was: point me to a site?) (LONG) On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:46:41 +0200, Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > Uhm, I've always thought of them as being more ancient then medieval, > but the descriptions are really too limited. The reason for my thinking that the Davanian city-states are more medieval is that they have survived the fall of the Milenian Empire by roughly 1000 years - enough time for them to evolve in certain ways without being impeded by a Spell of Preservation. So, I would think the Milenian spoken there would have evolved (and more than likely split into several dialects), for a start. It all depends on how the people living there tried to cope with the empire's fall. Some probably clung to their institutions as best they could, while others couldn't due to war or general upheaval, and had to start over (while still remembering fundamental aspects of their culture that could not be erased - like language, religion, basic beliefs, and so on. Perhaps, then, it would be more appropriate to say that all the city-states are still essentially Milenian, but that the degree to which they resemble the old empire varies considerably....some would be more "ancient" than others. Geoff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:39:00 -0400 From: shawn stanley Subject: Re: RW Equivalents to Mystaran nations (was: point me to a site?) (LONG) At 09:47 AM 22/07/2005, you wrote: > Herath (5) > > (5) Places names look Hebrew to me, but there is very little written on > Herathian culture. If I remember correctly many years ago Bruce said that although the place names were definitely sourced from Hebrew origins that the culture wasn't. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 20 Jul 2005 to 22 Jul 2005 (#2005-142) ****************************************************************