Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 6 Nov 2005 to 7 Nov 2005 (#2005-205) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 08/11/2005, 19:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 9 messages totalling 904 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Air fleets in Mystara (3) 2. Mystara Ponderings IMC (3) 3. Vedr. Re: [MYSTARA] Mystara Ponderings IMC 4. Vedr. [MYSTARA] Air fleets in Mystara (2) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 03:27:37 EST From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Air fleets in Mystara Nice List. One must remember that alot of the Air Material is based off the works of Aaron Allston. I point this out as he focused upon creating a Cold War situation between Thyatis and Alphatia, with both sides countering each other. For Example, Alphatia's Air Fleet is vague in terms of numbers, though a variety of vessel types, both military and private, are given in CoM. To counter this aerial threat, Thyatis has the Retebius Air Fleet and the militia Knights of the Air. In addition, air defense batteries are also detailed in DotE. Given what Thyatis is stated as having in terms of air forces, I would surmise that Alphatia had a fairly large air fleet. I don't have DotE handy but I believe that some numbers are given in it for the RAF. A shame that the Air Fleet is so vague and was so casually destroyed in Wrath. It would have been nice to have some canon writeups of the fleets to give numbers and organization details. Maybe some tactics too. >> City of Serraine My biggest problem with Serraine is that it is such a nonfactor. This is a flying fortified city with air wings of fighters and bombers. The military implications shoudl draw a near constant attention from nations trying to gain the gnomish air technics either by force, allegiance, financial, or covert means. To be honest, I would expect that at least one power would intervene to keep another from havign even the possibility to benefit from even cordial relations with the gnomes. >> Alphatia I would also include other skyship types into the fleets. Sloops, frigates, etc. are mentioned in CoM along with basic stats. These other types could serve a variety of roles, similar to a real world naval fleet with aircraft carriers, destroyers, cruisers, etc. Also, remember that an aircraft carrier type skyship is mentioned in DotE as the focal point for a joint Alphatian/Thyatian adventure. I would assume that Alphatia had one or more of these since it would take too long to create one for that adventure's needs. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 12:02:43 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Air fleets in Mystara Alex Benson ha scritto: > >>> City of Serraine > > My biggest problem with Serraine is that it is such a nonfactor. This is a flying fortified city with air wings of fighters and bombers. The military implications shoudl draw a near constant attention from nations trying to gain the gnomish air technics either by force, allegiance, financial, or covert means. To be honest, I would expect that at least one power would intervene to keep another from havign even the possibility to benefit from even cordial relations with the gnomes. Thyatis /is/ trying to capture Serraine (with no success at PC time). The Flying City doesn't seem to fly over Alphatia, so probably the Alphatians aren't aware of it. >>> Alphatia > > I would also include other skyship types into the fleets. Sloops, frigates, etc. are mentioned in CoM along with basic stats. These other types could serve a variety of roles, similar to a real world naval fleet with aircraft carriers, destroyers, cruisers, etc. Of course. > Also, remember that an aircraft carrier type skyship is mentioned in DotE as the focal point for a joint Alphatian/Thyatian adventure. I would assume that Alphatia had one or more of these since it would take too long to create one for that adventure's needs. I'll have to check this one. Thanks for the pointer. Bye, GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 13:42:24 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Air fleets in Mystara Alex Benson ha scritto: > > For Example, Alphatia's Air Fleet is vague in terms of numbers, though a variety of vessel types, both military and private, are given in CoM. To counter this aerial threat, Thyatis has the Retebius Air Fleet and the militia Knights of the Air. In addition, air defense batteries are also detailed in DotE. Given what Thyatis is stated as having in terms of air forces, I would surmise that Alphatia had a fairly large air fleet. I don't have DotE handy but I believe that some numbers are given in it for the RAF. Not that many, unfortunately. There's the base in Thyatis, which houses 125 RAF "pilots", but the main base at Retebius is said to be as large as 1/2 of the city itself (15.000 people). However, this doesn't help much -- large monsters (dragons, rocs), certainly require much space. The RAF is said to be as important as the navy, army, and cavalry, but given that the size of the three are quite different, this doesn't help much. Certainly the 1000 estimate seems too low, if the 125 RAF airmen in Thyatis are considered a small detachment. Regarding Alphatia, the sources (PWA, CoM, and DotE) seem to disagree. PWA says that the Alphatian (Floating Ar-an, actually) skyships are basically longships and galleys; CoM gives an "Age of Sail" version, with men-of-war, brigantines, schooners and sloops. DotE gives a WWII version, with aircraft carriers -- indeed, there's even a picture of the Alphatian aircraft carrier! IMO, CoM is the best source, while PWA can be safely ignored. OTOH, it would be useful to keep at least the aircraft carrier from DotE. One idea could go as follows: Alphatians are known to have perfected the art of building wind-powered skyships. However, during the wars with the Thyatians, their ships suffered from a sort of "Death Star effect" -- they're big and powerful, but a one-man fighter can easily penetrate their defences and strike them down with a well-placed dragon breath or meteor storm or whatever the Thyatians have to hurl at the Alphatian Men-of-War and brigantines. No matter how advanced these skyships are, any dragon/griffon/pegasus will easily outmanoevre them. So the Alphatians need some kind of smaller, non-wind-powered flying craft to use as interceptor. So, they've built a few (2-5) carriers, which they are equipping with various more-or-less experimental troops -- from pegasus-riders and pegataurs from Floating Ar to "Dragonfly of Doom"-like flying golems. They send one of these carriers to the SpillWorld only because that's the only way to carry the Thyatian RAF pilots and Knights of the Air. Bye, GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 14:38:05 +0100 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: Mystara Ponderings IMC --- Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > Weapon-wise, the nature of the terrains and > economies found in the Known World make plate armored knights less useful: Some good points here. These also explain why the armored knight is quite common in Karameikos, but less so in the other countries. I am mainly looking for arguments explaining why Mystara has a generally medieval feel, even with the existance of magic. > Atruaghin has an Spell of Preservation-like nature, > so its technology is locked at whatever age they currently are. They do? > On the other hand, dwarven technology is somewhat > more advanced than the average, even though this has little impact on the > KW at large. They do have several such devices IMC aswell, but they are still on the experimental stage. > > Magic > > Although powerful magic exists in the Known World, > it > > is not something possessed by everyone. Magic is > > gathered in the hands of small groups of society, > Not certain on this one. Glantri sees widespread use > of magic, which makes life more XX century-like than in other > regions (with magic lamps, magic-powered gondolas and the like widely > available, at least to the rich). I'm trying to avoid these things IMC. Like Steven, I try to keep such magical extravaganca limited to a smaller group. Also, even though the Noble Wizards of Glantri have access to a large number of magical devices even IMC, I try to describe them in such a way that they do not give the impression of a 20th C lifestyle. > Even Ierendi features a magic-powered restaurant, > and magic-steampowered ironclads! These have all been removed IMC. Restaurants might have a reputation for being enchanted but in fact just make really good food. Ironclads aren't around yet IMC, but will probably appear in a century or so. > This may not be apparent in the common folk's life, > but it becomes a significant factor in courts, in warfare, and in > politics. Again, this is something I want to avoid IMC. Alternately I could go all the way like Eberron does, turning the KW into a 20th C type society based on magic rather than technology, but to me Mystara has always been more medieval, and the changes I've made are there to enforce that style. > > Air Travel > Of course, downtoning it is an option, though that > would make some official events much less likely -- e.g., a minor > (and low-level) prince such as Haldemar would not own a skyship, if there > were only a dozen or so skyships in Alphatia, as they would be strategic > national assets, and Eriadna would never let Haldemar go into exile with > the ship -- the few ships would be personal possession of the Kings or > the members of the Grand Council, and they wouldn't give them up more > than they would give up ring of wishes or other powerful and rare magic > items. Interesting points to consider. I still think Sky ships could easily be in the hands of private individuals (Nobles) since these would be the only ones able to make them. Eriadna could still allow Haldemars expedition if she was really interested in learning more about the world. Haldemar obviously didnt make the Princess Ark himself as you point out, but he did inherit it, and it was most likely crafted by one of his ancestors. > On the same line, the HK would not risk several of > their few warbirds in battle with Haldemar, since warbirds would be more > useful as scouting/fast transport crafts than as warships. Yep, some of the events of the Princess Ark series would also have to be toned down. That is doable though, some encounters would more likely have occurred with Griffon Riders and one or two ships, and as you say, more likely scouting/transports than warships. > Anyway, as usual, both extremes are easily obtained > from canon sources, so it's up to the individual DM to find his own > Mystara -- be it a WWI world with storms of biplanes and zeppelins bombing > the Master's panzer divisions (the Juggernauts) and Heldannic Warbirds > engaging Alphatian Man-o-wars over the Sea of Dawn, or a 1500-like > world where biplanes are just odd plans in the mind of some gnomish Leonardo > da Vinci. Yep. This is also a good thing with Mystara, you can go either way. If going the High Magic road, Eberron is an excellent source of inspiration. It really follows in the lines of the Princess Ark and Glantri/Dawn of the Emperors when it comes to magical availability. I think it is useful for GMs to think about this though, whether they want to have that type of campaign, or tone it down a bit like im doing. Or maybe somewhere in between. It might be a good thing to clarify these things with your players though so they wont have the wrong expectations. Håvard ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 14:46:31 +0100 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Vedr. Re: [MYSTARA] Mystara Ponderings IMC --- Steven Carter skrev: > I always kept magic as an awesome force that > frightens everyone. IMC > mages did not have schools that people who were > smart could go to. The exception being Glantri. Magic is kept secret > in small cabals, > cults and circles. Wizards police society ensuring > that noone is > teaching the high art and science to everyone. Wizards, by mutual > agreement, don't take on large numbers of > apprentices. I like this. I still keep the School of Magic and the School of Magecraft, but they are elitist institutions like Aristoteles' Academy in ancient Greece. The number of students will be limited, and Glantrian society is dependent upon only a small group posessing magic so they can control the remaining populace. > When wizards took to the battlefield though their > primary worry wasn't > other wizards or magic users - it was assassins. Or > even before they > entered a battlefield. A prince or king's court > could be full of > would-be assassins. Interesting.... > Mine was a Mystara campaign so firearms were > appropriately restricted. Firearms do not exist IMC in AC 1000 either, though prototypes might be around. This is the case even on the Savage Coast. I have trouble taking hand crossbows seriously (at least for non-assasins), so most will be using regular crossbows instead. Firearms will probably appear around AC 1100, or at least in time for the Great War of AC 1130. > The crossbow and longbow were deadly to most types > of plate armour but > there was always someone who had a stronger or > enchanted suit that > made normal weapons ineffective. Nice. > Knights, mounted or not, were an elite force. Most > armies were peasant > with minimal light arms and armour because it was > cheap and kept them > mobile. Peasant armies are excellent, though they are much less mobile than knights. They are mostly useful for defense, since they will be more loyal and not to far away from home when harvest is due. > This made most PCs have the appearance of being an > elite force to all peasants. Also a cool thing for the players :) > I have given a few Glantrian, Alphatian and Dwarven > cities gaslight > and gas-fired cooking, heating, hotwater and forced > hot-air. But only > the richest get these luxuries. Not all of Glantri > City would be so > finely appointed. Sounds appropriate. > Alchemy does not replace pharmacy for the common > populace. A king or > prince might have an alchemical pharmacist and their > family and > trusted advisors may benefit from it. There might > be one or two in > large cities for the rich to benefit from but it > would be by > invitation or reference only. The common people are > lucky to live to > 50 years. This fits well with my vision of Mystara as well... > I've never, ever used skyships or winged-beast > riders although the PCs > knew they existed. I never had to define how many > or how common it > was. Karameikos might have had ten winged beasts. Alphatia might > have had 48 skyships of various sizes. Its not so much about defining it to the exact number, but getting an idea of how common such things are. Your numbers would work well for my purposes though. Håvard > > On 11/4/05, Giampaolo Agosta > wrote: > > Havard Faanes ha scritto: > > > > > > Technology > > > IMC the technological level of Mystara's Known > World > > > countries AC 1000 is defined mostly by the D&D > 3.5 > > > Equipment List. This is equivalent of most > European > > > Countries around 1500 AD. Firearms have not yet > been > > > invented, though the extensive use of crossbows > and > > > longbows have been reducing the role of the > Heavily > > > Plated Knight as the ultimate battle field > weapon. > > > > Weapon-wise, the nature of the terrains and > economies found in the Known > > World make plate armored knights less useful: > > 1) Armies tend to be large -- Thyatis and Darokin > can probably field > > armies in the range of 50.000 or more men, making > plate armor too > > expensive -- it must be custom-built for each > wearer, while lighter > > armors can be "mass-produced" for such large > armies (reducing the > > potential size of your army to 1/10, maybe); > > 2) The Kw is crossed by a long mountain chain (the > Altan > > Tepes/Cruth/Makkres group), and features large > patches of other terrain > > types that are not suited for knights -- forests, > deserts and > > marshlands. The only region where knights would > work at their best are > > the Thyatian mainland and the Darokin heartland, > and even there the > > presence of large walled cities reduced the > usefulness of cavalry. > > > > Add magic (Glantri, Alphatia, Ylaruam) and > longbow/crossbow use (elves, > > dwarves), and you get really little benefit from > fielding an army of > > knights. > > The HK are a different issue -- they have large > resources, but cannot > > form large armies, because their home nation is > largely populated by > > people that, if armed and trained, would turn on > them. So their best > > option is to concentrate money on armoring the > comparatively fewer > > Heldannic Knights as much as they can rather than > training large numbers > > of infantrymen/archers. > > > > > Athruagin is an exception here, since those > peoples > > > have limited knowledge of metal working and have > to a > > > great extent isolated themselves from the > surrounding > > > lands. > > > > Atruaghin has an Spell of Preservation-like > nature, so its technology is > > locked at whatever age they currently are. > > > > On the other hand, dwarven technology is somewhat > more advanced than the > > average, even though this has little impact on the > KW at large. > > > > > Magic > > > Although powerful magic exists in the Known > World, it > > > is not something possessed by everyone. Magic is > > > gathered in the hands of small groups of > society, > > > > Not certain on this one. Glantri sees widespread > use of magic, which > > makes life more XX century-like than in other > regions (with magic lamps, > > magic-powered gondolas and the like widely > available, at least to the rich). > > > > Even Ierendi features a magic-powered restaurant, > and magic-steampowered > > ironclads! > > > > This may not be apparent in the common folk's > life, but it becomes a > > significant factor in courts, in warfare, and in > politics. > > > > Some nations are clearly more magic-reliant than > others, even in warfare > > -- Glantri's army includes many mages. Of course, > that's nothing > > compared to Alphatia's Imperial Boltmen (W1 and E1 > with standard-issued > > wands of lightning!) > > > > Of course this means that also traditionally > non-magical nations will > > come up with some countermeasures, e.g. Ylaruam > focused on mounted > > archers and mounted mages as a way to counteract > the mage-troops of > > Alphatia. > > > > Also, aerial warfare is quite popular -- from > Serraine's WWI fighters to > > Thyatis' RAF & Knights of the Air to Volospin's > "dragonflies" to the > > HK's Luftflotte to the Alphatian yachts and > man-o-wars. > > Many other nations also have the magic/technology > for flight, they just > > haven't had reason for widespread/military > adoption -- e.g., Sind/Hule > > (flying barges -- and on another line they've got > tanks!), Rockhome > > (there is some dwarven flying contraption > somewhere in the GAZ, even if > > it's not supposed to work properly). > > > > With WotI or X10, or with other scenarios (e.g., > Myoshiman invasion), > > it's quite likely that Mystaran powers would start > military buildups, > > including skyships. > > > > > Air Travel > > > Air Travel is significantly less common than > some > > > official sources would suggest. > > > > Of course, downtoning it is an option, though that > would make some > > official events much less likely -- e.g., a minor > (and low-level) prince > > such as Haldemar would not own a skyship, if there > were only a dozen or > > so skyships in Alphatia, as they would be > strategic national assets, and > > Eriadna would never let Haldemar go into exile > with the ship -- the few > > ships would be personal possession of the Kings or > the members of the > > Grand Council, and they wouldn't give them up more > than they would give > > up ring of wishes or other powerful and rare magic > items. > > On the same line, the HK would not risk several of > their few warbirds in > > battle with Haldemar, since warbirds would be more > useful as > > scouting/fast transport crafts than as warships. > > > > Anyway, as usual, both extremes are easily > obtained from canon sources, > > so it's up to the individual DM to find his own > Mystara -- be it a WWI > > world with storms of biplanes and zeppelins > bombing the Master's panzer > > divisions (the Juggernauts) and Heldannic Warbirds > engaging Alphatian > > Man-o-wars over the Sea of Dawn, or a 1500-like > world where biplanes are > > just odd plans in the mind of some gnomish > Leonardo da Vinci. > > > > Bye, > > GP > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 14:59:10 +0100 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Vedr. [MYSTARA] Air fleets in Mystara --- Giampaolo Agosta wrote: A very useful list Giampaolo! A few comments however: > Air Fleets of Mystara > Empire of Thyatis > Thyatis relies on the Retebius Air Fleet and the > Knights of the Air for aerial support. We have no hard numbers, but the > Retebius Air Fleet assumed this name when the Retebius Aerial Corps > grew to "several hundred warriors". So I'd put a lower bound at 500 > units for the R.A.F., while the total air forces of Thyatis would have to > be limited so that they cannot overpower the Alphatian aerial defences. > Anyway, since the Alphatians were never able to get > great advantages from their own aerial forces (including the massive > Men-of-War), I'd say that the combined might of the R.A.F. and the > Knights of the Air would easily exceed 1000 units in modern times. > These are divided between air cavalry, mounted on > hippogriffs, pegasi and griffons (85%), and large flying creatures, > including sphinxes, rocs and dragons (15%). > Thyatis also has the magic necessary to produce > "bumber-chutes", so it could potentially create a corps of paratroopers > (carried by rocs and large dragons). However, this would be quite costly > (more or less, a paratrooper equipment would be as costly as a > knight). > Thyatis doesn't have skyship technology before WotI, > but could acquire it from captured Alphatian dominions after the War. In Bruce Heard's World in Flames scenario, he suggested a revision of the Thyatian Air force from having dragons/rocs etc to relying mostly on Wyvern Riders. Although that wasnt canon (posted on the MML), it made alot of sense to me. The same scenario also revealed that Ethengar has a unit of Pegasus Riders.... Håvard ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:21:38 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Vedr. [MYSTARA] Air fleets in Mystara Havard Faanes ha scritto: > > In Bruce Heard's World in Flames scenario, he > suggested a revision of the Thyatian Air force from > having dragons/rocs etc to relying mostly on Wyvern > Riders. Although that wasnt canon (posted on the MML), > it made alot of sense to me. It does make sense, at least in a post-WotI scenario. Without the Alphatian skyships to act as a balance, a force with some 50-100 dragons (easily equivalent to the same number of skyships) would allow Thyatis to overrun any threat. Replacing them with wyverns (not a threat to the average skyship) would put the Thyatian air forces on par with those of the HK or other powers of the post-WotI scenario. Pre-WotI, OTOH, is a completely different matter. To counter a fleet with, say, two or three aircraft carriers and some twenty man-of-war, not to count the brigantines and schooners, Thyatis definitely needs those 50-100 dragons (and if most Imperial Boltmen are armed with wands of lightning, then even 100 dragons would have their claws full dealing with a fleet of men-of-war, each carrying /400/ marines). > The same scenario also revealed that Ethengar has a > unit of Pegasus Riders.... Ah, yes, I remember reading something on those Ethengarian pegasus riders. I'll look into it. Bye, GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 16:17:29 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Mystara Ponderings IMC Havard Faanes ha scritto: > > Some good points here. These also explain why the > armored knight is quite common in Karameikos, but less > so in the other countries. Yes. Even in Karameikos, though, the _army_ doesn't have knight units -- it's mostly light infantry, archers and light cavalry, except for the guard of the Black Eagle, and perhaps the army of Kelvin (and they're likely to be medium cavalry rather than heavy cavalry). Knights mostly act as leaders or agents -- travelling judges, army and reserve generals and so on. > I am mainly looking for arguments explaining why > Mystara has a generally medieval feel, even with the > existance of magic. Well, one reason is: because one usually thinks of Karameikos, which indeed is /almost/ medieval. >> Atruaghin has an Spell of Preservation-like nature, >> so its technology is locked at whatever age they currently are. > > They do? IIRC. I'll check on the GAZ. > Again, this is something I want to avoid IMC. > Alternately I could go all the way like Eberron does, > turning the KW into a 20th C type society based on > magic rather than technology, but to me Mystara has > always been more medieval, and the changes I've made > are there to enforce that style. To me, Mystara is somewhere in the middle -- not a 20th century society, but not medieval either, and certainly highly variable depending on the region. Even within Glantri, Boldavia might feel medieval -- mostly because the people there is too poor to afford magic, while Glantri City (especially the nobles' wards) will be definitely full of odd magics, not necessarily very powerful, but often find to spot (e.g., magic lamps and gondolas, magic servants, etc.) > Interesting points to consider. I still think Sky > ships could easily be in the hands of private > individuals (Nobles) since these would be the only > ones able to make them. Yes, but certainly not warships. Those are too costly for the average Alphatian noble. You may reduce the size of the Alphatian skynavy (maybe they have just a couple of men-of-wars), but only kings would have the massive resources needed to build and maintain ships requiring a crew of 200 airmen (plus marines). Of course, like Haldemar, some nobles might just inherit their skyships, but even then they would have to pay maintainance/repair costs. And if in the "high-magic" variant Haldemar's family was able to afford just a large yacht, I doubt that in a "low-magic" variant they would be able to afford more than a sloop. While in the VotPA-Mystara the Princess Ark is just another privateer ship, in a down-toned version it would be a major battleship. One probably would have to downsize the Princess Ark to a smaller ship (with crew + passengers in the 10-20 range). > Eriadna could still allow > Haldemars expedition if she was really interested in > learning more about the world. I meant later, when he's exiled after discovering Myoshima. Bye, GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:41:07 -0800 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Mystara Ponderings IMC One other thing to ponder on is this... In the RW, it was not after the Black Death did we need to invent machines to do all the labor. With 3/4's of the population exterminated, we had a very little labor pool to farm with. This increased the status of farmers to more than mere serfs and began many revolutions that changed Europe forever. This makes Mystara a place with a large population to do things that do not need magic or machines to do things for them. Why have a printing press when you can just have 20 or so acolytes do the work for you. Why build a ship that magically propels itself when you can just buy 80 slaves, or hire 80 laborers that cost you 1gp a month if you are really generous. They have the smarts to do these fantastical things, but there just is no real need. If Stefan built a wind mill like the ones in the Shire, he will need to figure out what to do with the 45 families he just took work from. Two notable exceptions are Glantri with many "mundane" uses of magic being generated by students, and the Shires for using machines being powered by wind and water, possibly from having their populations decimated several times from their tragic past. In Irendi, the iron clads are another exception, but again, they were built out of neccesity as they were an introverted people that did not have a large population to do things for them, like rowing. For this reason, adventurers are out of the ordinary, but also generated out of the need of having such a large population doing all the labor that many people must either adventure or beg. Which that is what most adventurers do, beg for work. Depending on how you play out WotI or Red Arrow, one of these or both would be the catalyst to bring "modernization" to Mystara. Karameikos would be ripe for taking on that roll as well as the Dwarves with the after effects of their civil war could put a lot of their experiments to practical use as a neccesity. _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 6 Nov 2005 to 7 Nov 2005 (#2005-205) **************************************************************