Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 22 Nov 2005 to 23 Nov 2005 (#2005-218) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 24/11/2005, 19:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 7 messages totalling 512 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Blood Brethren (4) 2. 'Honest' Life on Ne'er-Do-Well? (3) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 11:32:50 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Blood Brethren Hi all, just a quick question: is there a (canonical or simply likely) known position of the Blood Brethren trilogy (HWA1-3) in the timeline? I'd guess it happens between the GAZ time (1000 AC) and the beginning of the Wrath of the Immortals, but I'm not sure. Thanks in advance, GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 13:28:44 +0100 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: Blood Brethren Hello! The thing about the BB Trilogy is that it involves all of the immortals. Also, they are all for quite some time stuck in the past, which means they are indisposed during the events of the trilogy. This means placing it during WotI is impossible, and even during the build-up 1001-1005 also difficult. I think this would be the most likely time for it though, perhaps 1001-1003, when not too much is happening between the immortals. Besides, once Thanatos' plot has been foiled, the immortals can easily revert a few things in time again to fix things back to normal... Håvard --- Giampaolo Agosta skrev: > Hi all, > > just a quick question: is there a (canonical or > simply likely) known position of the Blood Brethren trilogy (HWA1-3) in > the timeline? > I'd guess it happens between the GAZ time (1000 AC) > and the beginning of the Wrath of the Immortals, but I'm not sure. > > Thanks in advance, > GP > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 11:28:41 -0800 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: 'Honest' Life on Ne'er-Do-Well? Wow, I really never thought of it. Can a thief really have a code of ethics? Being an Alphatian nation, the rulers would need to be some kind of spell casting creature. This would most likely be a cleric of Koritiku. With this in mind, the thieves guild could be operated under the auspices of clergy and a church. Having a society of thieves in this light may be the reason well meaning citizens can thrive, they have insurance from the church. So the regular non-thieving populace can share in the boasting of "Yes, I really tried to keep my stuff locked up; but he got in. Next time he won't be so lucky, and I can be the one that caught him." To the shopkeeper, it hurts, but they can go back to the church and be compensated. Now the theif only gets the glory, he still needs to give the item back to the guild. This opens several adventure hooks. Outside thieves may not know they can't keep the loot, and will be punished by the local clergy and thieves. Others may try to play the ultimate confidence game and claim more loot was stolen than what the thief took. Remember the society gloats about the thieves' explotations, it is very similar to "counting coup"; running up to an enemy and tapping him on the shoulder and run back to safety without ever being hurt or caught. This was a very popular game to some American Indian cultures. This society supports the antics of the thieves, I am sure there is an underbelly of non-thieves supporting the "catching" them, earning much fame (or would it be infammy?) in the process. _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:39:50 -0400 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: 'Honest' Life on Ne'er-Do-Well? I never really paid any attention to Ne'er-Do-Well but you really stirred my interest. Please forgive my ignorance as I babble in the next paragraph. Does a thief have to steal everything? Why not only take a few pieces? Take a piece that won't be missed. Or take a piece everyone knows belongs to a certain someone. Maybe thieves prefer to leave alone the peasants and shopkeepers who have nothing worth stealing or little ability to defend themselves. Perhaps the only good mark is a worthy mark. Similarly perhaps the ability to catch a thief by using thiefly daring is also admired. A common shop keeper who is able to snare a thief with an ingenious trap could gain fame in their neighbourhood.=20 Although that would mean more thieves would be drawn to that shop for the challenge. The ruler of Ne'er-Do-Well could just as easily be a wizard who is either so powerful and cunning they cannot be stolen from or so powerful and cunning they are themselves the best thief in the land. I don't picture one thieves guild being very useful in this situation. Probably lots and lots of gangs of various alignments. Some are Robin Hood rogues, some are Mafiosos and some are glory-hound opportunists and thrill junkies who don't really want to hurt anyone.=20 Each group controls and defends territories - protection rackets. So "legitimate" business survives. But, I haven't read the Ne'er-Do-Well material in ages. So what I just wrote could be garbage. On 11/23/05, Chris Cherrington wrote: > Wow, I really never thought of it. Can a thief really have a code of > ethics? > Being an Alphatian nation, the rulers would need to be some kind of spell > casting creature. This would most likely be a cleric of Koritiku. With > this in mind, the thieves guild could be operated under the auspices of > clergy and a church. Having a society of thieves in this light may be th= e > reason well meaning citizens can thrive, they have insurance from the > church. So the regular non-thieving populace can share in the boasting o= f > "Yes, I really tried to keep my stuff locked up; but he got in. Next tim= e > he won't be so lucky, and I can be the one that caught him." To the > shopkeeper, it hurts, but they can go back to the church and be compensat= ed. > Now the theif only gets the glory, he still needs to give the item back= to > the guild. This opens several adventure hooks. Outside thieves may not > know they can't keep the loot, and will be punished by the local clergy a= nd > thieves. Others may try to play the ultimate confidence game and claim m= ore > loot was stolen than what the thief took. Remember the society gloats ab= out > the thieves' explotations, it is very similar to "counting coup"; running= up > to an enemy and tapping him on the shoulder and run back to safety withou= t > ever being hurt or caught. This was a very popular game to some American > Indian cultures. This society supports the antics of the thieves, I am s= ure > there is an underbelly of non-thieves supporting the "catching" them, > earning much fame (or would it be infammy?) in the process. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE= ! > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 20:37:29 +0100 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: Blood Brethren Another thing: There seems to have been a general consensus that the Blood Brethren Trilogy is the reason why Thanatos is Supreme Hierarch of Entropy in the HW boxed set, while Hel is in WotI. Thanatos was likely demoted from this position after he screwed up during the Trilogy. Håvard --- Giampaolo Agosta skrev: > Hi all, > > just a quick question: is there a (canonical or > simply likely) known position of the Blood Brethren trilogy (HWA1-3) in > the timeline? > I'd guess it happens between the GAZ time (1000 AC) > and the beginning of the Wrath of the Immortals, but I'm not sure. > > Thanks in advance, > GP > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 19:26:50 -0600 From: James Mishler Subject: Re: 'Honest' Life on Ne'er-Do-Well? IMM, the islands of Ne'er-Do-Well are penal colonies, along the lines of Australia's Botany Bay during the Colonial era or Coventry in Heinlein's stories. Everyone sent there is a thief, rogue, or malcontent, but once they get there they may take up more "honest" living. It is the dumping ground for convicted petty-criminal or troublesome commoners with moderately powerful magic-using (i.e., noble) family or friends (those without are generally slain out of hand or enslaved). It began as a penal colony in the 1800's, after the failure of the "beautification" program. Convict colonists are magically branded, and geased to not leave the island for the period of their sentence (usually 20 years, sometimes life). These colonists often were there for the most petty crimes, such as insulting a noble by failing to bow, or stealing a scarve, or such; they had friends or family such that outright slaying them or enslaving them was politically or socially out of the question, so they were dumped on the island to make do as best as they could. Sometimes a wizard might feeblemind an enemy and dump him on the island, as well. An out-of-favor member of the Imperial Court was dropped on them as a king, and, save for dropping more convicts on the island, it was more or less abandoned and forgotten by the Empire, save on maps, so as to keep it out of the hands of the Thyatians. There is a small army and navy detachment posted to the island at Crossroads, usually at the disposal of the "king," there to keep a face to the magical interdiction of the waters (guarded by water and air elementals, who keep any ships from approaching or leaving the island save by Crossroads). Since then, the convicts and their descendants have built their own society. The "kingdom," as such, includes Crossroads and the farmlands south and west of the Grand Moat. The rest of the island is divided into more than two dozen individual holdings of self-styled robber barons and pocket princelings. Some are martial based, others religious based, and a couple even magical based, but all are ruled by thieves of one stripe or anther. There is trade, of sorts, though most baronies are self-sufficient in the basic needs. It is the luxuries that are stolen or taken by force, as each "baron" has an "honor guard" of brigands. The Royal Domain, as it is half-jokingly known as, is sacrosanct, because the King can bring down the force of the small, but potent local Alphatian military on the other barons (the current king's father did so more often, but he rarely dealt with the "barons" otherwise). The slave farms of the Royal Domain are worked by real slaves, imported through Crossroads, or taken in raids by the King's Privateers (who prey on Thyatian and other non-Minrothian merchants). Those convicted of crimes in the Royal Domain also join the slave farmers, who lead a fairly decent life as far as slavery goes in Alphatia. King Koryn the Harpist is believed to be the son of the former king, the magic-user appointed by the Empire to be the governor of the island, but in truth, he is an advanced simulacrum of the old king himself, who, when he was decanted, took on his own personality and decided to become a bard instead of a wizard (refer to Shimrod and Murgen in Vance's Lyonnesse trilogy). During his youth it was unknown to even the local guild that he was the "son" of the ruler, until the ruler was upon his deathbead, and summoned his wayward "son" home to fulfill his duty. That's when Crossroads became a home for thieves of all kinds in addition to the colonial rogues that were sent in the past. Such "colonists" continue to be sent, through one-way teleportals from mainland Alphatia. They arrive in a dungeon underneath the royal castle, and are there debriefed as to their new status. They are released on their own recognizance into the colony with whatever they possess - note that only petty thieves, brigands, and rogues are thusly exiled, never crazed murderers or such, so there's not much of an assassin's guild in the city (though there is one, founded by an escaped Amancerian slave). Thieves who are really thieves, as in catburglars, pickpockets, highwaymen, fences, prostitutes, and so forth, are invited to join the Guild (i.e., the "government" such as it is), while the other poor fools dropped down the memory hole are told to find an honest craft or profession. Dangerous, unsociable types that do make it to the isle for some reason are usually either recruited for the Guild's leg-breaking division or dumped unceremoniously alone and penniless over the Great Moat. The descendants of the original and later "colonists" take pride in their history, and took up "family" names based on their "First Convict's" crime (an idea stolen from a Battlestar Galactica episode). Thus, old and now respected families include the Brigandages, the Fencers, the Burglars, the Sharpers, the Spitters, the Doxies, the Cutpursers, the Harlots, and so forth. Foreigners are often confused to discover that a family with a name like "Brigandage" might now be honorable silversmiths, or that "Jhace Harlot III" is the mayor of Crossroads. Thievery actually occurs only moderately more often than in cities of similar size, and then only against those who do not pay the Guild for security (which in itself is a kind of extortion, even though the Guild is, as such, the government). The king keeps the worst of the brigands that come through the portals in line by getting them impressed into "tax gangs" that go and "collect tribute" from the "baronies." The common folk of the baronies lead a pretty miserable life, but as Crossroads benefits both from the "tribute collection," "privateering," and the surreptitious trade that occurs with Minrothad thereby, the people of the city are fairly well-off, and the petty theivery that the Guild allows is regarded merely as another tax. Tehre is no required income tax, but the fat merchants who refuse to pay "King Harper's Beneficence" on a timely basis often rue the day... James ----- Original Message ----- From: "Libramus" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 1:50 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] 'Honest' Life on Ne'er-Do-Well? > So I've been recently thinking about the Alphatian kingdom of Ne'er-Do-Well, and wondering exactly how the kingdom manages to remain stable on anything resembling a long-term basis. > > The place was conceived as a thieves' paradise, after all, where anything that doesn't directly harm someone is okay and certain kinds of crime are actually celebrated. Problem with this is, a thief doesn't really produce anything of value in the long term, and anyone engaging in honest trade in such a lawless kingdom would likely want to emigrate after the second or third season of nonstop theft, swindling, extortion, fraud and confidence games threatened to do the business in. So how _does_ Ne'er-Do-Well manage to avoid becoming a starving pit of vipers? > > A few possibilities I've thought of here, none of which really satisfy me: > > - Ne'er-Do-Well doesn't *have* any sort of honest trade. It steals whatever it can, and trades stolen luxuries for those things it can't steal (bulk foodstuffs, skilled labor, et cetera). Problem: There are just too many things that can't be stolen for this to really be feasible. The concept that a kingdom of 20,000 thieves can actually cooperate and coordinate well enough to keep the kingdom running, without anyone being stabbed in the back or ratted out on, is also a difficult stretch. > > - Ne'er-Do-Well has a solid proportion of honest citizens, who for some reason don't suffer from the depredations of the island's thieves. Maybe custom and tradition keep the locals off limits; maybe the locals are all just so incredibly cunning and paranoid that the island's thieves swear them off for easier marks. Problem: Ne'er-Do-Well presumably gets a lot of visiting thieves, many of whom won't know or care about a 'hands off the locals' custom. As for cunning and paranoia - even if you could find 20,000 people able to stare down Name-level or better thieves on a regular basis, could you convince them to live on some backwater island where they'd have to do so? > > - Ne'er-Do-Well is essentially communist. The government and the Thieves' Guild (essentially one and the same) use their cut of the loot to subsidize management of farms, craft shops, and everything else Ne'er-Do-Well needs. Problem: The Soviets had industrial automation, huge economies of scale, and a much smaller kleptocratic class when they tried this, and they lasted maybe seventy years. A communist Ne'er-Do-Well should have been on the rocks decades ago. > > - Ne'er-Do-Well practices extensive slavery. The 'honest' people of the island aren't there by choice and give new meaning to the term 'hand-to-mouth existence' on a daily basis. Problem: ICK. Not to mention that between lousy legal protections, nonexistent worker morale, and zero outside support, whoever owns these 'sweatshop' businesses has to be operating at a huge loss. > > Any ideas on other possibilities, or ways in which one of the above could be reconciled to something that makes sense? Because as it stands, I'm not sure why Ne'er-Do-Well didn't starve out years ago. > > - Rodger Burns > libramus@scn.org > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 17:57:18 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Blood Brethren --- Havard Faanes wrote: > The thing about the BB Trilogy is that it involves > all of the immortals. Also, they are all for quite some time stuck in the past, which means they are > indisposed during the events of the trilogy. This > means placing it during WotI is impossible, and even > during the build-up 1001-1005 also difficult. I > think this would be the most likely time for it though, perhaps 1001-1003, when not too much is happening between the immortals. PWA 1011 states that the Grand Mogul of Shahjapur, Koriktodeva Raya, was born in 977 AC. His age as listed in HWA3: Nightstorm is 28, which would seem to imply that the Blood Brethren trilogy takes place in 1005 AC. As Havard notes, this creates some difficulty in running both the HW series and WotI as written, so some modification would have to be made to either one. The alteration that would make the least impact, IMO, is to have only a select few Immortals be distracted by Thanatos' plot in the HW series, and not the entire Immortal hierarchy (which was always, IMO, stretching things). The only Immortals who really need to be thus involved are Atzanteotl (his Azcan priests losing magic is a plot point of HWA1), Asterius (who is a behind the scenes character in all three), and certain Nithian Immortals (Rathanos, Pflarr). Probably most of the other Azcan Immortals as well (Ixion, Ka). Most of the Immortals that would be affected would seem to be involved as the "movers and shakers" of WotI in some way, so Thanatos' ruse could be some concept he brings to them that will possibly allow them to settle things off the mortal plane, and they agree, believing they will be back quickly enough to not miss anything (except that Thanatos tricks them). I'd suggest it might fit in well around late 1004/early 1005. At that point, things are moving well enough on their own in the mortal realm that the Immortals need not be monitoring them constantly (and in any case, as noted, they don't think they will be gone more than a few moments in time, and wouldn't be except for Thanatos), and it would fit in with the burning of Asterius' temples in Alphatia- as his clerics would have no power to defend themselves at that stage. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 22 Nov 2005 to 23 Nov 2005 (#2005-218) ****************************************************************