Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 11 Dec 2005 to 12 Dec 2005 (#2005-230) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 13/12/2005, 19:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 6 messages totalling 415 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Mystaran Churches (6) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 08:43:46 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Mystaran Churches Steven Carter ha scritto: > > Yeah. But again, does the common person know of anyone who became an > Immortal? And Immortalism is not exclusive. Well, some people do: e.g., Al Kalim is revered by some (on the SC) as an Immortal, and he is an historical figure. > It's little different from attaining Buddhist Nirvana, Daoist > Immortality, becoming a Christian Saint or being spotted driving your > pink Cadillac down a Montana freeway thirty years after your supposed > death by drug overdose. In fact it's so difficult the smart wizard's > money is on becoming a lich. ;) :) There's some difference, though -- Immortals do exist, and provide spells, omens and whatever else. While their identities might not be known to everyone and they might be removed from the day-to-day life, their existance per se cannot be doubted (you may doubt that they are divine beings, not that they exist). >> OTOH, a unified origin could be conceived for the churches in Thyatis >> (including the HK and the Thyatian dominions, with the exception of >> Ochalea), Darokin, Karameikos and maybe Ierendi and/or Minrothad. > > Ochalea's case shouldn't be too different from Minrothad's. Ochalea > might be a lot more mystical but that can fit in as well. I suppose this depends heavily on what you think Ochalea is like -- if it's strongly Asian, than an M-Christianity there is IMO not any more appropriate than in Ylaruam. Bye, GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 09:01:45 -0400 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: Mystaran Churches On 12/12/05, Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > Steven Carter ha scritto: > Well, some people do: e.g., Al Kalim is revered by some (on the SC) as > an Immortal, and he is an historical figure. Just as the prophet Mohammed (PBUH) is. And God is the god of history. Lots of people knew Mother Teresa . And there is a monk from Quebec that lots of people I've spoken to swear healed them. But still.... I'll catch up in my reading some day. > There's some difference, though -- Immortals do exist, and provide > spells, omens and whatever else. While their identities might not be > known to everyone and they might be removed from the day-to-day life, > their existance per se cannot be doubted (you may doubt that they are > divine beings, not that they exist). Lots of people still receive blessings from g/God/dess(es) today. All the "rational" people just discount it as delusions (Glantri) or say there is a rational (Glantri) explanation. Or maybe they're Buddhist and say that the existence of gods doesn't matter. (Again, Glantri). Or that people who rely on gods are weakling fools who are looking for a way to avoid being responsible for their own lives. (again, Glantri) (And when I say that, I mean IMC) > I suppose this depends heavily on what you think Ochalea is like -- if > it's strongly Asian, than an M-Christianity there is IMO not any more > appropriate than in Ylaruam. That's a whole separate debate. But being under the thumb of first Alphatia then Thyatis for 1500+ years would probably take a lot of the mediaeval Asian character away. At least in the major cities that sought to compete with the rest of the world. Unless both foreign empires kept closed door policies toward Ochalea. Otherwise you'd find the mystical, nature oriented spiritism only alive in the rural populations. I for one don't see this scheme as an M_Christianity - simply another organization system for a largely undefined Mystaran religiosity. I really would deplore the inclusion of a messiah sent by a totaliter aliter god. It would ruin the interesting diversity of Mystara's setting. (But that's me, and I've already run a monotheist campaign using a different system and setting.) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 14:11:08 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Mystaran Churches Steven Carter ha scritto: > >> There's some difference, though -- Immortals do exist, and provide >> spells, omens and whatever else. While their identities might not be >> known to everyone and they might be removed from the day-to-day life, >> their existance per se cannot be doubted (you may doubt that they are >> divine beings, not that they exist). > > Lots of people still receive blessings from g/God/dess(es) today. All > the "rational" people just discount it as delusions (Glantri) or say > there is a rational (Glantri) explanation. Well, IMO it's not that Glantrians don't think that Immortals exist -- it's just that they don't think of them as gods. That's different from RW atheists, IMO. >> I suppose this depends heavily on what you think Ochalea is like -- if >> it's strongly Asian, than an M-Christianity there is IMO not any more >> appropriate than in Ylaruam. > > That's a whole separate debate. But being under the thumb of first > Alphatia then Thyatis for 1500+ years would probably take a lot of the > mediaeval Asian character away. At least in the major cities that > sought to compete with the rest of the world. Unless both foreign > empires kept closed door policies toward Ochalea. Otherwise you'd > find the mystical, nature oriented spiritism only alive in the rural > populations. I'm not saying it would be unfeasible -- both options are acceptable (you might say, e.g., that Alphatia itself is not much european, and that the Ochalean have enjoyed significant autonomy from Thyatis), it simply makes for a different Ochalea. > I for one don't see this scheme as an M_Christianity - simply another > organization system for a largely undefined Mystaran religiosity. Of course not. Still, the idea of a single bureacratic church is naturally related to the christian churches of RW. Bye, GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 09:49:10 -0800 From: Daniel Gioffre Subject: Re: Mystaran Churches Why not understand the churches (e.g. Karameikos and Traladara definitely, Darokin and Thyatis maybe) as organized cults of a set number of Immortals? Those Immortals outside the church could be considered either: a) non-existent; b) existent but not concerned with the peoples of Karameikos, Traladara, etc; c) existent but demonic; or d) aspects of already recognized Immortals (i.e. syncretism) etc. I don't see why canon sources force us to unify all the churches into some gigantic overarching structure. Is it weird to use the word "church" which in the RW is generally only used in Christian settings? No weirder than having Venetian gondoliers in Glantri City or Slavic names in Traladara. I don't see that the use of this term implies some general agreement and common history like the terms "Roman Catholic Church" and "Orthodox Church" implies today. The canon writers did not, I believe, have this in mind when they wrote their sources. Of course, you can do anything you want in your campaign... However, I do agree with the initial poster (forgot your name--sorry!) that we have to make a distinction between what IS true theologically speaking and what the vast majority of people in Mystara BELIEVE to be true. Just because we, the omnipotent DMs, know the origin of the Immortals doesn't mean that the individual cults of the Immortals should teach (or even know) the true nature of the Immortals. In fact, if the path to Immortality is considered a great mystery, it would make sense that the OPPOSITE is believed to be the case (that is, that Immortality can not be obtained). Very rare would be the person who discovers the true nature of the Immortals, and the path to become one himself. -Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 14:58:05 -0400 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: Mystaran Churches There should be groups within each of the Mystaran cults that hold fast to their own version of illuminati - the mystery cults that either say "this is the path to immortality" or "this is how you attain transcendence" or "there are no immortals, it's all a hoax/pyramid scheme". I came to this by trying to figure out why a paladin or cleric from Darokin would be allowed to operate within Thyatis. The answer, I thought, was a commonality of beliefs and interfaith respect. This, so I've been told, was a LOT more prevalent in pagan times than during mediaeval Europe. However the Romans crucified, tortured to death and fed Christians to the lions so I guess it depends on perspective what is truth. Nevertheless there was a lot of commonality amongst the various mystery cults of the Mediterranean Sea and Middle East cultures prior to Christianity. Given the largely mediaeval nature of the Known World I tried to graft the two aspects together. On 12/12/05, Daniel Gioffre wrote: > In fact, if the path to Immortality is considered a > great mystery, it would make sense that the OPPOSITE > is believed to be the case (that is, that Immortality > can not be obtained). Very rare would be the person > who discovers the true nature of the Immortals, and > the path to become one himself. Sure, in theory anyone can become a saint, experience miracles, it all depends on how strong your faith is, how truly righteous you are and how immune from sin you are. But I've never heard a priest, minister or female cleric in a Christian church exhorting any path to sainthood, miracles, etc. I expect most clerics of Mystara don't spend any time on such things.=20 They are too busy healing, telling people to play nice, acting as a judge and smiting evil icky things. ;) Even the doctors of theology, might codify hundreds of paths, but never attain them and never exhort anyone to pursue them. It's like naming all the angels of Heaven --- what good does it do. You never actually get to pick up the phone and have a conversation with one. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 12:48:59 -0800 From: Daniel Gioffre Subject: Re: Mystaran Churches Oh, I think this would absolutely make sense. In a historical sense, there was no sense of exclusion in the mysteries. You could be inducted into the mysteries at Eleusis as well as the mysteries of Isis, etc. It's all a side-product of syncretic thought. (And, btw, there's no reason why this has to be limited to paganism. There have been plenty of Christian leaders who have espoused some degree of syncretism (a bad idea, IMHO).) As I read the sources, a philosophical syncretism is likely in Mystara. In fact, my understanding of the Church of the Karameikos is to take it as an attempt to unite the cults of Thyatis through a more "spiritual" interpretation of the teachings of the individual cults. Political/religious conflicts arise, hence its flourishing in Karameikos instead of the Empire. But I still don't understand why it would bother you that a cleric/paladin of Darokin would be allowed to function in Thyatis. General feelings of syncretism would explain this without recourse to some Masonic uber-cult that involves all the cults of the world. Do not multiply entity beyond necessity, as Wm. of Ockham said. :) -Dan --- Steven Carter wrote: > There should be groups within each of the Mystaran > cults that hold > fast to their own version of illuminati - the > mystery cults that > either say "this is the path to immortality" or > "this is how you > attain transcendence" or "there are no immortals, > it's all a > hoax/pyramid scheme". > > I came to this by trying to figure out why a paladin > or cleric from > Darokin would be allowed to operate within Thyatis. The answer, I > thought, was a commonality of beliefs and interfaith > respect. This, > so I've been told, was a LOT more prevalent in pagan > times than during > mediaeval Europe. However the Romans crucified, > tortured to death and > fed Christians to the lions so I guess it depends on > perspective what > is truth. Nevertheless there was a lot of > commonality amongst the > various mystery cults of the Mediterranean Sea and > Middle East > cultures prior to Christianity. > > Given the largely mediaeval nature of the Known > World I tried to graft > the two aspects together. > > On 12/12/05, Daniel Gioffre > wrote: > > In fact, if the path to Immortality is considered > a > > great mystery, it would make sense that the > OPPOSITE > > is believed to be the case (that is, that > Immortality > > can not be obtained). Very rare would be the > person > > who discovers the true nature of the Immortals, > and > > the path to become one himself. > > Sure, in theory anyone can become a saint, > experience miracles, it all > depends on how strong your faith is, how truly > righteous you are and > how immune from sin you are. But I've never heard a > priest, minister > or female cleric in a Christian church exhorting any > path to > sainthood, miracles, etc. > > I expect most clerics of Mystara don't spend any > time on such things. They are too busy healing, telling people to play > nice, acting as a > judge and smiting evil icky things. ;) Even the > doctors of theology, > might codify hundreds of paths, but never attain > them and never exhort > anyone to pursue them. It's like naming all the > angels of Heaven --- > what good does it do. You never actually get to > pick up the phone and > have a conversation with one. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 11 Dec 2005 to 12 Dec 2005 (#2005-230) ****************************************************************