Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 18 Dec 2005 to 19 Dec 2005 (#2005-237) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 20/12/2005, 19:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 9 messages totalling 576 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Alphatia: The bad guys ? (3) 2. New Immortals Book? 3. The Church of Thyatis 4. Spheres and Immortals (4) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 08:21:12 -0400 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: Alphatia: The bad guys ? With another federal election looming in Canada that description sounds remarkably similar to reality. Exchange theocracy for entrenched oligarchy. ;) But I'm a cynic. (Makes me wonder if there is a school of cynicism in Mystara and what form would it take?) On 17/12/05, Gilles Leblanc wrote: > I personally presented that nation as corrupted with a twisted sense of > politics, laws and customs. While most peasants were not evil, the ruling > theocracy were truly represented as devious and deceitful. They are after > all followers of the Immortal of deceit. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 16:14:35 +0100 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: New Immortals Book? >> From what I understand, the "Book of the Immortals" makes a very different assumption of what an immortal is that Mystara does. My impression was that they have a more Highlander-esque approach to that term, though I may be wrong... Håvard --- Steve Carter skrev: > Appears that Mongoose has a 256 page supplement > called "Book of Immortals". I've read some reviews. Anyone here > put down the coin and try it yet? > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 16:16:58 +0100 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: Alphatia: The bad guys ? --- Gilles Leblanc wrote: > I personally presented that nation as corrupted with > a twisted sense of > politics, laws and customs. While most peasants were > not evil, the ruling > theocracy were truly represented as devious and > deceitful. They are after > all followers of the Immortal of deceit. Alphatia and Koryis are quite central Immortals in Alphatia, representing Magic and Peace. Alphaks OTOH has sworn to destroy Alphatia, thus there must be something good in there that he wishes to destroy, right? Håvard > On 12/17/05, Joe Mason wrote: > > > > Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > > > Not necessarily, but the average citizen (and > lower-rank > > > bureacrat/noble/whatever) of Hule or Denagoth > doesn't need to be any > > > more evil than anyone else (Black Eagle is too > small, so the Baron's > > > evil directly affects everything in the Barony). > > > So, natives of Hule could perceive themselves as > protecting their > > > nation, and the soldiers of Denagoth would not > consider their attempts > > > to conquer Wendar as different from the HK > invasion of the Heldann > > > Freeholds. > > > > I always thought that the actual nation of Hule > presented in X5, with > > wandering Holy Men and semi-civilized humanoids, > seemed like just any > > other country. It was only the Master himself who > was unequivocally evil. > > > > Joe > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 16:21:39 +0100 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: Alphatia: The bad guys ? --- Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > Indeed, your Star Wars example fits perfectly -- the > Emperor is certainly highly evil, but could well be perceived > as the saviour of the galaxy, with an appropriate amount of > misinformation. > On the same line, in Mystara it would be possible > for freedom fighters to be labeled as terrorists, and for tyrannical > rulers to pose as saviours of the civilization, or, though not as > commonly, for evil bandits to pass themselves off as freedom fighters > and for just rulers to appear as tyrants. I always thought that was a funny presentation ever since I saw the first Tie Fighter game, and the word Rebel Terrorist was used in the scrolling text as the imperial march was playing in the background. OTOH, having clear cut forces of good and evil can have some benefits if you want to create a traditional fantasy atmosphere. The advantage of having each country presented as potentially good or evil as the Gaz series do simply allows the DM to make up his own mind and go from there. Had Hule or Denagoth gotten their own gazetteers, I wouldnt have been surprised if they hadnt been presented in a better light as well, as the treatment given to th Broken Lands and the Shadow elves... Håvard ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 16:35:24 +0100 From: Havard Faanes Subject: The Church of Thyatis Here are some thoughts on the Church of Thyatis IMC: The Church of Thyatis Organization: Lose organization comprised of cults to the individual immortals of the Thyatian Pantheon. Recognizes the Emperor as a spritual head of the Faith. Faith: The Thyatian Faith (see http://pandius.com/knwnfath.html) Pantheon: The Thyatian Pantheon. Also, worship of forreign immortals, integrated into the Thyatian Faith is tolerated. Immortals from the Antalian, Traladaran and Ochaelan pantheons are especially popular. Ethos: The Faith defines certain actions as sins, which unless repented for hinders the souls passing into Paradise. Such souls are trapped on Limbo, or worse, captured by the Demons of Hell. View of Deities: Deities are known as Immortals. The Faith contains myths about mortals joining the ranks of the immortals. The Immortals are divided into Immortals of Life and Immortals of Death (Demons). Forreign immortals are not believed to be false, and many are integrated into the Thyatian Faith. Social Role: Membership in a cult provides a social network for the members, and the cult aids its members performining rites of passage, marriage and burials. Also, acts of charity is encouraged towards cult members, but not particularly so towards members of other cults or religions. Relation with other Churches: Friendly attitude towards the Churches of Karameikos and Darokin. The Church of Thyatis has a sense of superiority towards these, and even more so towards other Churches/Faiths which it sees as misunderstood worship, whereas the Church of Thyatis can provide the correct/civilized way of worship. Håvard --- Havard Faanes skrev: > I love this topic! > > This is something I have been thinking alot about > when > doing my writeup of the Faiths of Mystara > (http://pandius.com/knwnfath.html). I suppose a > better > entry than Churches would have been organizations, > but > I felt the need to distinguish between cults or > associated cults and say religious orders. > > For the Church of Thyatis, I have always been of the > opinion that there is a bit more to it than just a > wide bunch of cults devoted to individual immortals. > There is for instance an overarching Faith > connecting > these cults, even though the organization connecting > them is very lose at best. > Syncretism exists within the Church of Thyatis, but > much less so with the Churches of Karameikos and > Traladara. (Darokin is open to speculation). > > The Antalian Faith, if we go with the RW Aasatru > paralell, accepts the existance of other Immortals, > and acceptance of healing/aid and even usage of > relics > from other immortals, but joining a forreign cult is > absolutely banned. In Antalian society, religion is > firmly connected with the clan structure, and > abandoning one's religion means turning your back on > your family and clan. > The Ethengar would probably simply assume that > others > worship various hero spirits (true, in fact), but > probably feel little reason to involve these in > their > daily lives since they are not connected to their > lands or their people. > The Eternal Truth is even more absolutist than the > Church of Karameikos, and would not allow worship of > any immortal other than Al-Kalim. > > The fact that Mystara has clerical magic does indeed > change things from the R/W situation. Few people > doubt > that the Immortals exist, even immortals outside > their > own Faith. However, the nature of those immortals > will > be disputed. Most forreign Immortals will be > suspected > to be untrustworthy at best, demonic at worst. R/W > comparisons may be something like Faeries and > Demons. > Okay, so Faeries arent exactly evil, but they are > likely to get you in trouble no matter how many > presents they offer you. > > This is not so different from the R/W medieval > situation actually. Unlike the situation these days, > medieval man rarely disbelieved the existance of > magic > and supernatural beings, both of benign and malign > existance, though he was likely to rely on the local > priest to tell him which was which. > > The closest to Atheists in the Known World are the > people of Glantri. They also do not deny the > existance > of Immortals, but frown upon Clerics which they see > as > people who have sold their souls to more powerful > beings rather than persuing the power of magic on > their own. > Whew. :) > > Håvard > > > --- Daniel Gioffre skrev: > > > > And that's why I didn't buy it. I like your > > > explanation better if one > > > supposes the "church of Thyatis" isn't a > singular > > > organization but a > > > collection of cults. > > > Yes, that's always how I read the source material. > > There are only a few references to a "Church of > > Thyatis" and I always interpreted that as meaning > > "the > > cults in Thyatis which, although acting > > independently > > of each other, are all recognized by Thyatian law > > and > > therefore somewhat 'official', as opposed to the > > cults > > of Alphaks and Thanatos". > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: > > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > > To unsubscribe, send email to > > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 18:38:08 +0100 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Spheres and Immortals I am sort of unhappy with the following Immortals and their assigned Spheres: Thor: I think he should be in the sphere of Thought. He is much more associated with Air than he is with Lightning(Energy). Also, his mental attributes (Courage) suggests Thought. If anyone, Odin should belong to the Sphere of Energy, being the God of magic. But I understand his placement within the Sphere of Thought as his Wisdom aspect has been emphasized. The Dragon Rulers: Any reason why the most magical beings in the multiverse don't belong to the Sphere of Energy? Håvard ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:23:12 -0600 From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Spheres and Immortals In my game dragons have an intrinsic connection to the world; thus they are within the sphere of matter. George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Havard Faanes" To: Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 11:38 AM Subject: [MYSTARA] Spheres and Immortals > I am sort of unhappy with the following Immortals and > their assigned Spheres: > > Thor: I think he should be in the sphere of Thought. > He is much more associated with Air than he is with > Lightning(Energy). Also, his mental attributes > (Courage) suggests Thought. If anyone, Odin should > belong to the Sphere of Energy, being the God of > magic. But I understand his placement within the > Sphere of Thought as his Wisdom aspect has been > emphasized. > > The Dragon Rulers: Any reason why the most magical > beings in the multiverse don't belong to the Sphere of > Energy? > > Håvard > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.1/206 - Release Date: 12/16/2005 > > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 16:05:08 -0500 From: Angelo Bertolli Subject: Re: Spheres and Immortals Havard Faanes wrote: > I am sort of unhappy with the following Immortals and > their assigned Spheres: > > Thor: I think he should be in the sphere of Thought. > He is much more associated with Air than he is with > Lightning(Energy). Also, his mental attributes > (Courage) suggests Thought. If anyone, Odin should > belong to the Sphere of Energy, being the God of > magic. But I understand his placement within the > Sphere of Thought as his Wisdom aspect has been > emphasized. > > I thought the most important thing about the Sphere of Thought was that it compassed all three alignments--it's sort of an all-knowing or creative sphere. Thor's purpose/personality doesn't really seem to match the philosophies of the Sphere of Thought, even though he does command air. > The Dragon Rulers: Any reason why the most magical > beings in the multiverse don't belong to the Sphere of > Energy? > > Remind me of the details of the dragon rulers? You think they should all be in energy? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 17:49:52 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Spheres and Immortals Havard Faanes wrote:Thor: I think he should be in the sphere of Thought. He is much more associated with Air than he is with Lightning(Energy). Also, his mental attributes (Courage) suggests Thought. If anyone, Odin should belong to the Sphere of Energy, being the God of magic. But I understand his placement within the Sphere of Thought as his Wisdom aspect has been emphasized. The Dragon Rulers: Any reason why the most magical beings in the multiverse don't belong to the Sphere of Energy? Thor is the Thunder god, right? I assume that's why they made him an Energy Immortal- or at least redefined him that way. IIRC, he was originally presented as an Immortal of Matter (which I for some reason thought suited him better). Thought is an interesting choice, though. As for the Dragon Rulers, I prefer the old Gold Box interpretation wherein they weren't affiliated with any of the Spheres, but had a hierarchy of their own outside the "standard" Immortal system. (Of course, by that token, I *disliked* the Draedens' stated affiliation with the Sphere of Thought, since their description seems to clearly place them outside the Immortal hierarchy as well.) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 18 Dec 2005 to 19 Dec 2005 (#2005-237) ****************************************************************