Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 26 Dec 2005 to 3 Jan 2006 (#2006-1) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 04/01/2006, 19:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 14 messages totalling 1298 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. The Nature of Magic (12) 2. The Church of Thyatis 3. Mystaran Churches ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 17:31:56 +0100 From: Havard Faanes Subject: The Nature of Magic I have been thinking recently about the nature of magic on Mystara. We know that: 1) The Nucleus of the Spheres is the Source of All Magic on Mystara. 2) Magic also existed before the creation of the NoS. 3) Magic is associated with the Sphere of Energy. 4) The Sphere of energy is associated with the element of Fire. 5) Fire Magic is not stronger than other elemental magic. For the record, I am talking about arcane (magic-user) magic here, not Clerical/Divine magic. What bothers me the most is the idea of magic being connected with the Sphere of Energy. Sure, we talk about magical energy, but the main problem becomes the confict between the points 4 and 5 which leads me to believe that magic is connected with all of the Spheres. This also fits well with the Radience being its source and being named the Nucleus of the Spheres, Ie a link to all Spheres, not just that of Energy. Also, I am wondering if the NoS truly is the source of magic on Mystara. Since magic also existed on Mystara before the creation of the NoS, perhaps it is more of a conduit of magic allowing wizards to draw on the true source of magic, being the Spheres of Power themselves? If the Immortals draw their powers from the Spheres and are able to channel this to their Clerics, perhaps the NoS functions in a similar manner to wizards? This still raises the question of how Wizards were able to tap directly onto the Spheres in the Age of Blackmoor.... Håvard ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 12:44:09 -0400 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: The Nature of Magic Perhaps the NoS only helps modern wizards. Pre-GRoF magic being more primitive, primal. The NoS is a tool of sorts. Makes arcane magic easier. Does a sorceror need the NoS or only wizards? Do pre-GRoF wizards need to be re-defined as sorcerors? Assuming of course one redefines everything in 3e terms. Which I don't suggest. (FWIW, for my part I've just taken Mystara's magic as it is and ignored their justifications / explanations since most of it is counter to what real people have believed in real societies about how arcane magic and divine gifts worked.) On 03/01/06, Havard Faanes wrote: > I have been thinking recently about the nature of > magic on Mystara. We know that: > > 1) The Nucleus of the Spheres is the Source of All > Magic on Mystara. > 2) Magic also existed before the creation of the NoS. > 3) Magic is associated with the Sphere of Energy. > 4) The Sphere of energy is associated with the element > of Fire. > 5) Fire Magic is not stronger than other elemental > magic. > > For the record, I am talking about arcane (magic-user) > magic here, not Clerical/Divine magic. > > What bothers me the most is the idea of magic being > connected with the Sphere of Energy. Sure, we talk > about magical energy, but the main problem becomes the > confict between the points 4 and 5 which leads me to > believe that magic is connected with all of the > Spheres. This also fits well with the Radience being > its source and being named the Nucleus of the Spheres, > Ie a link to all Spheres, not just that of Energy. > > Also, I am wondering if the NoS truly is the source of > magic on Mystara. Since magic also existed on Mystara > before the creation of the NoS, perhaps it is more of > a conduit of magic allowing wizards to draw on the > true source of magic, being the Spheres of Power > themselves? If the Immortals draw their powers from > the Spheres and are able to channel this to their > Clerics, perhaps the NoS functions in a similar manner > to wizards? > > This still raises the question of how Wizards were > able to tap directly onto the Spheres in the Age of > Blackmoor.... > > H=E5vard > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 10:52:51 -0600 From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: The Nature of Magic In my campaign I have different styles of magic attached to different spheres and combinations of spheres. The NoS is the source of Radiance, and Radiance can greatly improve the power of other styles of magic. George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Havard Faanes" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 10:31 AM Subject: [MYSTARA] The Nature of Magic > I have been thinking recently about the nature of > magic on Mystara. We know that: > > 1) The Nucleus of the Spheres is the Source of All > Magic on Mystara. > 2) Magic also existed before the creation of the NoS. > 3) Magic is associated with the Sphere of Energy. > 4) The Sphere of energy is associated with the element > of Fire. > 5) Fire Magic is not stronger than other elemental > magic. > > For the record, I am talking about arcane (magic-user) > magic here, not Clerical/Divine magic. > > What bothers me the most is the idea of magic being > connected with the Sphere of Energy. Sure, we talk > about magical energy, but the main problem becomes the > confict between the points 4 and 5 which leads me to > believe that magic is connected with all of the > Spheres. This also fits well with the Radience being > its source and being named the Nucleus of the Spheres, > Ie a link to all Spheres, not just that of Energy. > > Also, I am wondering if the NoS truly is the source of > magic on Mystara. Since magic also existed on Mystara > before the creation of the NoS, perhaps it is more of > a conduit of magic allowing wizards to draw on the > true source of magic, being the Spheres of Power > themselves? If the Immortals draw their powers from > the Spheres and are able to channel this to their > Clerics, perhaps the NoS functions in a similar manner > to wizards? > > This still raises the question of how Wizards were > able to tap directly onto the Spheres in the Age of > Blackmoor.... > > Håvard > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.11/219 - Release Date: 1/2/2006 > > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 18:16:53 +0100 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: The Nature of Magic --- Steven Carter : > Perhaps the NoS only helps modern wizards. Pre-GRoF > magic being more > primitive, primal. The NoS is a tool of sorts. Makes arcane magic > easier. Does a sorceror need the NoS or only > wizards? Do pre-GRoF > wizards need to be re-defined as sorcerors? Assuming of course one > redefines everything in 3e terms. Which I don't > suggest. This is certainly a possibility. Whether Sorcerors need to draw on the Radiance is hard to say. Perhaps the magic in the age of Blackmoor allowed both wizards and sorcerors to draw on it directly, but after the GRoF, magic became less accessible, making wizards depend on the NoS while Sorcerors would retain their independence? All of this suggests a major change in the nature of magic on Mystara changing during the GroF. Also, how does all of this affect worlds outside Mystara? > (FWIW, for my part I've just taken Mystara's magic > as it is and > ignored their justifications / explanations since > most of it is > counter to what real people have believed in real > societies about how > arcane magic and divine gifts worked.) Yes, that is a bit of a problem isnt it? :( Håvard > > > On 03/01/06, Havard Faanes > wrote: > > I have been thinking recently about the nature of > > magic on Mystara. We know that: > > > > 1) The Nucleus of the Spheres is the Source of All > > Magic on Mystara. > > 2) Magic also existed before the creation of the > NoS. > > 3) Magic is associated with the Sphere of Energy. > > 4) The Sphere of energy is associated with the > element > > of Fire. > > 5) Fire Magic is not stronger than other elemental > > magic. > > > > For the record, I am talking about arcane > (magic-user) > > magic here, not Clerical/Divine magic. > > > > What bothers me the most is the idea of magic > being > > connected with the Sphere of Energy. Sure, we talk > > about magical energy, but the main problem becomes > the > > confict between the points 4 and 5 which leads me > to > > believe that magic is connected with all of the > > Spheres. This also fits well with the Radience > being > > its source and being named the Nucleus of the > Spheres, > > Ie a link to all Spheres, not just that of Energy. > > > > Also, I am wondering if the NoS truly is the > source of > > magic on Mystara. Since magic also existed on > Mystara > > before the creation of the NoS, perhaps it is more > of > > a conduit of magic allowing wizards to draw on the > > true source of magic, being the Spheres of Power > > themselves? If the Immortals draw their powers > from > > the Spheres and are able to channel this to their > > Clerics, perhaps the NoS functions in a similar > manner > > to wizards? > > > > This still raises the question of how Wizards were > > able to tap directly onto the Spheres in the Age > of > > Blackmoor.... > > > > Håvard > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 18:18:42 +0100 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: The Nature of Magic --- George Hrabovsky skrev: > In my campaign I have different styles of magic > attached to different spheres and combinations of spheres. The NoS is the > source of Radiance, and Radiance can greatly improve the power of other > styles of magic. That is actually a pretty good idea (Though slightly heretical)! It still raises a question of the connection between the Sphere of Energy and the NoS though, since the NoS doesnt favor Energy related magic at least AFAIK... Håvard > George > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Havard Faanes" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 10:31 AM > Subject: [MYSTARA] The Nature of Magic > > > >I have been thinking recently about the nature of > > magic on Mystara. We know that: > > > > 1) The Nucleus of the Spheres is the Source of All > > Magic on Mystara. > > 2) Magic also existed before the creation of the > NoS. > > 3) Magic is associated with the Sphere of Energy. > > 4) The Sphere of energy is associated with the > element > > of Fire. > > 5) Fire Magic is not stronger than other elemental > > magic. > > > > For the record, I am talking about arcane > (magic-user) > > magic here, not Clerical/Divine magic. > > > > What bothers me the most is the idea of magic > being > > connected with the Sphere of Energy. Sure, we talk > > about magical energy, but the main problem becomes > the > > confict between the points 4 and 5 which leads me > to > > believe that magic is connected with all of the > > Spheres. This also fits well with the Radience > being > > its source and being named the Nucleus of the > Spheres, > > Ie a link to all Spheres, not just that of Energy. > > > > Also, I am wondering if the NoS truly is the > source of > > magic on Mystara. Since magic also existed on > Mystara > > before the creation of the NoS, perhaps it is more > of > > a conduit of magic allowing wizards to draw on the > > true source of magic, being the Spheres of Power > > themselves? If the Immortals draw their powers > from > > the Spheres and are able to channel this to their > > Clerics, perhaps the NoS functions in a similar > manner > > to wizards? > > > > This still raises the question of how Wizards were > > able to tap directly onto the Spheres in the Age > of > > Blackmoor.... > > > > Håvard > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.11/219 - > Release Date: 1/2/2006 > > > > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 11:26:00 -0600 From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: The Nature of Magic Nor does it in my campaign. The Immortals of Energy favor wizards because that is their domain of influence. A mage gains a spell of nature by appealing to an Immortal of Matter, and so on. Radiance stems from the Sphere of Energy through the NoS and is able to enhance anything a wizard can do, once they are initiated. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Havard Faanes" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] The Nature of Magic > --- George Hrabovsky skrev: > >> In my campaign I have different styles of magic >> attached to different >> spheres and combinations of spheres. The NoS is the >> source of Radiance, and >> Radiance can greatly improve the power of other >> styles of magic. > > That is actually a pretty good idea (Though slightly > heretical)! It still raises a question of the > connection between the Sphere of Energy and the NoS > though, since the NoS doesnt favor Energy related > magic at least AFAIK... > > Håvard > > >> George >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Havard Faanes" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 10:31 AM >> Subject: [MYSTARA] The Nature of Magic >> >> >> >I have been thinking recently about the nature of >> > magic on Mystara. We know that: >> > >> > 1) The Nucleus of the Spheres is the Source of All >> > Magic on Mystara. >> > 2) Magic also existed before the creation of the >> NoS. >> > 3) Magic is associated with the Sphere of Energy. >> > 4) The Sphere of energy is associated with the >> element >> > of Fire. >> > 5) Fire Magic is not stronger than other elemental >> > magic. >> > >> > For the record, I am talking about arcane >> (magic-user) >> > magic here, not Clerical/Divine magic. >> > >> > What bothers me the most is the idea of magic >> being >> > connected with the Sphere of Energy. Sure, we talk >> > about magical energy, but the main problem becomes >> the >> > confict between the points 4 and 5 which leads me >> to >> > believe that magic is connected with all of the >> > Spheres. This also fits well with the Radience >> being >> > its source and being named the Nucleus of the >> Spheres, >> > Ie a link to all Spheres, not just that of Energy. >> > >> > Also, I am wondering if the NoS truly is the >> source of >> > magic on Mystara. Since magic also existed on >> Mystara >> > before the creation of the NoS, perhaps it is more >> of >> > a conduit of magic allowing wizards to draw on the >> > true source of magic, being the Spheres of Power >> > themselves? If the Immortals draw their powers >> from >> > the Spheres and are able to channel this to their >> > Clerics, perhaps the NoS functions in a similar >> manner >> > to wizards? >> > >> > This still raises the question of how Wizards were >> > able to tap directly onto the Spheres in the Age >> of >> > Blackmoor.... >> > >> > Håvard >> > >> > >> > ******************************************************************** >> > The Other Worlds Homepage: >> http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >> > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com >> > To unsubscribe, send email to >> LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >> > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. >> > >> > >> > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. >> > Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.11/219 - >> Release Date: 1/2/2006 >> > >> > >> >> > ******************************************************************** >> The Other Worlds Homepage: >> http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >> The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com >> To unsubscribe, send email to >> LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >> with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. >> > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.11/219 - Release Date: 1/2/2006 > > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 19:34:09 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: The Nature of Magic Havard Faanes ha scritto: > I have been thinking recently about the nature of > magic on Mystara. We know that: I don't really agree with assumption 1. Actually the NoS is the source of Radiance magic, not all magic: only wizards who use the Radiance affect the Rad level of Mystara, and they use it to power effects not normally available to other wizards. GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 11:56:04 -0800 From: Daniel Gioffre Subject: Re: The Church of Thyatis This is actually fairly similar to how I view the Church of Karameikos. I saw the Thyatian cults as being more like the Roman state religion..."official" in a sense but also not teaching a coherent set of doctrine. The Immortals are worshipped for more "practical" reasons, like Roman religion: because the gods could help them (in wars, growing of crops, etc.). I see the CoK as being more "spiritual" and reforming. --- Havard Faanes wrote: > Here are some thoughts on the Church of Thyatis IMC: > > > The Church of Thyatis > > Organization: Lose organization comprised of cults > to > the individual immortals of the Thyatian Pantheon. > Recognizes the Emperor as a spritual head of the > Faith. > > Faith: The Thyatian Faith (see > http://pandius.com/knwnfath.html) > > Pantheon: The Thyatian Pantheon. Also, worship of > forreign immortals, integrated into the Thyatian > Faith > is tolerated. Immortals from the Antalian, > Traladaran > and Ochaelan pantheons are especially popular. > > Ethos: The Faith defines certain actions as sins, > which unless repented for hinders the souls passing > into Paradise. Such souls are trapped on Limbo, or > worse, captured by the Demons of Hell. > > View of Deities: Deities are known as Immortals. The > Faith contains myths about mortals joining the ranks > of the immortals. The Immortals are divided into > Immortals of Life and Immortals of Death (Demons). > Forreign immortals are not believed to be false, and > many are integrated into the Thyatian Faith. > > Social Role: Membership in a cult provides a social > network for the members, and the cult aids its > members > performining rites of passage, marriage and burials. > Also, acts of charity is encouraged towards cult > members, but not particularly so towards members of > other cults or religions. > Relation with other Churches: Friendly attitude > towards the Churches of Karameikos and Darokin. The > Church of Thyatis has a sense of superiority towards > these, and even more so towards other > Churches/Faiths > which it sees as misunderstood worship, whereas the > Church of Thyatis can provide the correct/civilized > way of worship. > Håvard > > > > --- Havard Faanes skrev: > > > I love this topic! > > > This is something I have been thinking alot about > > when > > doing my writeup of the Faiths of Mystara > > (http://pandius.com/knwnfath.html). I suppose a > > better > > entry than Churches would have been organizations, > > but > > I felt the need to distinguish between cults or > > associated cults and say religious orders. > > > For the Church of Thyatis, I have always been of > the > > opinion that there is a bit more to it than just a > > wide bunch of cults devoted to individual > immortals. > > There is for instance an overarching Faith > > connecting > > these cults, even though the organization > connecting > > them is very lose at best. > > Syncretism exists within the Church of Thyatis, > but > > much less so with the Churches of Karameikos and > > Traladara. (Darokin is open to speculation). > > > The Antalian Faith, if we go with the RW Aasatru > > paralell, accepts the existance of other > Immortals, > > and acceptance of healing/aid and even usage of > > relics > > from other immortals, but joining a forreign cult > is > > absolutely banned. In Antalian society, religion > is > > firmly connected with the clan structure, and > > abandoning one's religion means turning your back > on > > your family and clan. > > The Ethengar would probably simply assume that > > others > > worship various hero spirits (true, in fact), but > > probably feel little reason to involve these in > > their > > daily lives since they are not connected to their > > lands or their people. > > The Eternal Truth is even more absolutist than the > > Church of Karameikos, and would not allow worship > of > > any immortal other than Al-Kalim. > > > The fact that Mystara has clerical magic does > indeed > > change things from the R/W situation. Few people > > doubt > > that the Immortals exist, even immortals outside > > their > > own Faith. However, the nature of those immortals > > will > > be disputed. Most forreign Immortals will be > > suspected > > to be untrustworthy at best, demonic at worst. R/W > > comparisons may be something like Faeries and > > Demons. > > Okay, so Faeries arent exactly evil, but they are > > likely to get you in trouble no matter how many > > presents they offer you. > > > This is not so different from the R/W medieval > > situation actually. Unlike the situation these > days, > > medieval man rarely disbelieved the existance of > > magic > > and supernatural beings, both of benign and malign > > existance, though he was likely to rely on the > local > > priest to tell him which was which. > > > The closest to Atheists in the Known World are the > > people of Glantri. They also do not deny the > > existance > > of Immortals, but frown upon Clerics which they > see > > as > > people who have sold their souls to more powerful > > beings rather than persuing the power of magic on > > their own. > > Whew. :) > > > Håvard > > > > --- Daniel Gioffre > skrev: > > > > > And that's why I didn't buy it. I like your > > > > explanation better if one > > > > supposes the "church of Thyatis" isn't a > > singular > > > > organization but a > > > > collection of cults. > > > > > Yes, that's always how I read the source > material. > > > There are only a few references to a "Church of > > > Thyatis" and I always interpreted that as > meaning > > > "the > > > cults in Thyatis which, although acting > > > independently > > > of each other, are all recognized by Thyatian > law > > > and > > > therefore somewhat 'official', as opposed to the > > > cults > > > of Alphaks and Thanatos". > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > > > protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > > The Other Worlds Homepage: > > > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > > > To unsubscribe, send email to > > > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: > > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > === message truncated === __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 12:03:24 -0800 From: Daniel Gioffre Subject: Re: Mystaran Churches Just reading this now for the first time... Yes, I pretty much read things the same way as you, Havard! (with the exception of the CoT vis a vis the CoK) -Dan --- Havard Faanes wrote: > I love this topic! > > This is something I have been thinking alot about > when > doing my writeup of the Faiths of Mystara > (http://pandius.com/knwnfath.html). I suppose a > better > entry than Churches would have been organizations, > but > I felt the need to distinguish between cults or > associated cults and say religious orders. > > For the Church of Thyatis, I have always been of the > opinion that there is a bit more to it than just a > wide bunch of cults devoted to individual immortals. > There is for instance an overarching Faith > connecting > these cults, even though the organization connecting > them is very lose at best. > Syncretism exists within the Church of Thyatis, but > much less so with the Churches of Karameikos and > Traladara. (Darokin is open to speculation). > > The Antalian Faith, if we go with the RW Aasatru > paralell, accepts the existance of other Immortals, > and acceptance of healing/aid and even usage of > relics > from other immortals, but joining a forreign cult is > absolutely banned. In Antalian society, religion is > firmly connected with the clan structure, and > abandoning one's religion means turning your back on > your family and clan. > The Ethengar would probably simply assume that > others > worship various hero spirits (true, in fact), but > probably feel little reason to involve these in > their > daily lives since they are not connected to their > lands or their people. > The Eternal Truth is even more absolutist than the > Church of Karameikos, and would not allow worship of > any immortal other than Al-Kalim. > > The fact that Mystara has clerical magic does indeed > change things from the R/W situation. Few people > doubt > that the Immortals exist, even immortals outside > their > own Faith. However, the nature of those immortals > will > be disputed. Most forreign Immortals will be > suspected > to be untrustworthy at best, demonic at worst. R/W > comparisons may be something like Faeries and > Demons. > Okay, so Faeries arent exactly evil, but they are > likely to get you in trouble no matter how many > presents they offer you. > > This is not so different from the R/W medieval > situation actually. Unlike the situation these days, > medieval man rarely disbelieved the existance of > magic > and supernatural beings, both of benign and malign > existance, though he was likely to rely on the local > priest to tell him which was which. > > The closest to Atheists in the Known World are the > people of Glantri. They also do not deny the > existance > of Immortals, but frown upon Clerics which they see > as > people who have sold their souls to more powerful > beings rather than persuing the power of magic on > their own. > Whew. :) > > Håvard > > > --- Daniel Gioffre skrev: > > > > And that's why I didn't buy it. I like your > > > explanation better if one > > > supposes the "church of Thyatis" isn't a > singular > > > organization but a > > > collection of cults. > > > Yes, that's always how I read the source material. > > There are only a few references to a "Church of > > Thyatis" and I always interpreted that as meaning > > "the > > cults in Thyatis which, although acting > > independently > > of each other, are all recognized by Thyatian law > > and > > therefore somewhat 'official', as opposed to the > > cults > > of Alphaks and Thanatos". > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: > > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > > To unsubscribe, send email to > > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 15:19:07 +0000 From: wombat Subject: Re: The Nature of Magic --- Havard Faanes wrote: > I have been thinking recently about the nature of > magic on Mystara. We know that: > > 1) The Nucleus of the Spheres is the Source of All > Magic on Mystara. Where is this stated? At least from the Glantri supplement, it seems to just be an artifact connected to magic and the Sphere of Energy, but not the source of it. > > For the record, I am talking about arcane (magic-user) > magic here, not Clerical/Divine magic. > What bothers me the most is the idea of magic being > connected with the Sphere of Energy. Sure, we talk > about magical energy, but the main problem becomes the > confict between the points 4 and 5 which leads me to > believe that magic is connected with all of the > Spheres. This also fits well with the Radience being > its source and being named the Nucleus of the Spheres, > Ie a link to all Spheres, not just that of Energy. The connection between elements and the spheres has always been pretty weak; immortals of matter don't have any more power over elemental earth in and of themselves than any other immortals, for example. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 15:24:27 -0500 From: John Hofmann Subject: Re: The Nature of Magic >> 1) The Nucleus of the Spheres is the Source of All >> Magic on Mystara. > > Where is this stated? At least from the Glantri supplement, it seems to just > be an artifact connected to magic and the Sphere of Energy, but not the > source of it. It's been a while, but I believe that in the Glantri gazetteer it talks about the effects of draining the Radiance. As it loses its "juice", magic on Mystara (including magical races, which kind of points out something about the fabric of the world and the connection between Mystara and elves, dragons, pixies, etc) starts to "go away." This implies a relatively direct connection between the Radiance and magic. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 22:26:13 +0000 From: wombat Subject: Re: The Nature of Magic --- John Hofmann wrote: > >> 1) The Nucleus of the Spheres is the Source of All > >> Magic on Mystara. > > > > Where is this stated? At least from the Glantri supplement, it seems to > just > > be an artifact connected to magic and the Sphere of Energy, but not the > > source of it. > > It's been a while, but I believe that in the Glantri gazetteer it talks about the effects of draining the Radiance. As it loses its "juice", magic > on Mystara (including magical races, which kind of points out something about the fabric of the world and the connection between Mystara and elves, > dragons, pixies, etc) starts to "go away." This implies a relatively > direct connection between the Radiance and magic. Yes, it also says in the Glantri gazeteer that the connection was imposed later in its history by the Immortals; it's not something which was inherent to the device. It seems to me to be more like the drain at the bottom of the tub than the spigot that fills it. So to speak. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 23:19:39 -0500 From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: The Nature of Magic > I don't really agree with assumption 1. Actually the NoS is the source > of Radiance magic, not all magic: only wizards who use the Radiance > affect the Rad level of Mystara, and they use it to power effects not > normally available to other wizards. The NoS is NOT the source of all magic. As already pointed out, magic existed before the NoS did. What the NoS does do is enhance the magical ability of those who can tap ito it (and many of the radiance spells are Energy-related). But, the more the NoS is tapped into, the more overall magic that is drained from all of Mystara. This was the effect of a "curse" put on the NoS by Immortals of the other spheres to help maintain the overall balance of power, since ultimate mastery of the NoS leads to Immortality in the sphere of Energy w/o requiring an Immortal sponsor. This is what WotI was all about. Rad would not stop his experiments w. the NoS despite the risk of draining all magic, and Ixion would not allow that to happen. That being said, certainly a case can be made for the NoS and the nature of magic being tied to all of the Spheres. There are clearly spells that are primarily based on each one of the Spheres. My take is that magic would indeed contain elements of all of the spheres, but that Energy would be the primary means of access, with some level of domiance over the other spheres, when taking magic as a whole. > The connection between elements and the spheres has always been pretty weak; > immortals of matter don't have any more power over elemental earth in and of > themselves than any other immortals, for example. In the original gold box Immortals set, every spell was designated to a specific sphere, and there was a fairly involved system where Immortals were stronger in their own Sphere's magic. I'd need to dig deep to find the details on that, though. Dan ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:37:03 +0800 From: Jason Murphy Subject: Re: The Nature of Magic Just Musing here. But has anyone toyed with a campaign where a serious drai= n of magic occurred in the distant past making Mages, magical races extremely rare. Then perhaps running the campaign during a period where magic is gradually returning to Mystara. ie NOS drains magic.....but the source of magic can gradually replenish. On 1/4/06, Dan Eustace wrote: > > > I don't really agree with assumption 1. Actually the NoS is the source > > of Radiance magic, not all magic: only wizards who use the Radiance > > affect the Rad level of Mystara, and they use it to power effects not > > normally available to other wizards. > > The NoS is NOT the source of all magic. As already pointed out, magic > existed before the NoS did. What the NoS does do is enhance the magical > ability of those who can tap ito it (and many of the radiance spells are > Energy-related). But, the more the NoS is tapped into, the more overall > magic that is drained from all of Mystara. This was the effect of a > "curse" > put on the NoS by Immortals of the other spheres to help maintain the > overall balance of power, since ultimate mastery of the NoS leads to > Immortality in the sphere of Energy w/o requiring an Immortal > sponsor. This > is what WotI was all about. Rad would not stop his experiments w. the No= S > despite the risk of draining all magic, and Ixion would not allow that to > happen. > > That being said, certainly a case can be made for the NoS and the nature > of > magic being tied to all of the Spheres. There are clearly spells that ar= e > primarily based on each one of the Spheres. My take is that magic would > indeed contain elements of all of the spheres, but that Energy would be > the > primary means of access, with some level of domiance over the other > spheres, > when taking magic as a whole. > > >The connection between elements and the spheres has always been pretty > weak; > >immortals of matter don't have any more power over elemental earth in an= d > of > >themselves than any other immortals, for example. > > In the original gold box Immortals set, every spell was designated to a > specific sphere, and there was a fairly involved system where Immortals > were > stronger in their own Sphere's magic. I'd need to dig deep to find the > details on that, though. > > Dan > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 26 Dec 2005 to 3 Jan 2006 (#2006-1) *************************************************************