Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 22 May 2006 to 23 May 2006 (#2006-103) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 24/05/2006, 17:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 12 messages totalling 562 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Quests for Immortality: Alternatives? (7) 2. Diaboli (2) 3. What's your Thyatis like? (2) 4. MYSTARA-L Digest - 21 May 2006 to 22 May 2006 (#2006-102) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 17:16:52 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: Quests for Immortality: Alternatives? The problem is not IMO that the PC doesn't need a party to survive. The problem is exactly the opposite, if the party is disbanded, then the other players wont have anything to do and the campaign will die. This is to my experience exactly what happens when people start questing for Immortality. Håvard --- Dan Eustace skrev: > Once a PC starts to Quest, they are so powerful that > really don't need a > full adventuring party to support them. They prob. > have significant > personal and political power, along with many > followers. Of course, the DM > can always come up w. things to challenge any group > of PCs, and if you > wanted to have an Immortal or a group of Immortals > sponsor a group of PCs, > go for it! There are other cliques of Immortals > that were companions in > mortal life - notably the Traldaran 3, and the > Cynidiceans come to mind. I > know they supposedly did not achieve Immortality as > a group quest, but why > not? > > IMC, one PC is currently questing. He has hired a > lower level party > (another group IMC) that is gathering components for > him to make a magic > item that is part of the quest, and also grooming > one of them as his > eventual successor (Epic Hero path). The lower > level PCs have no idea of > this, they are simply doing the bidding of a > powerful noble/famous hero. > The action centers around this group, while the > questing PC is more like a > high level NPC, guiding the younger group - kind of > how an Immortal would > use his mortal followers to conduct his plots... > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Havard Faanes" > To: > Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 9:35 AM > Subject: [MYSTARA] Quests for Immortality: > Alternatives? > > > > I've never been perfectly happy with the current > > guidelines for quests for Immortality. > > > > My main issue with the rules is that they > encourage > > individual gaming, which really break with the > > traditional D&D gaming. Furthermore, if a party > quests > > for immortality together, some classes will likely > be > > favored over others since each type of quest > favors > > one class or race. > > > > Does anyone have thoughts on how to fix this? > > > > Håvard > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 17:20:44 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: Quests for Immortality: Alternatives? --- CAB Davidson skrev: > I think that the answer resides in your question. > Talking to Frank Mentzer about this over on the > Dragonsfoot forums (sorry to name drop like that), > its > clear that he didn't intend them to be 'rules', > merely > guidelines. And he hasn't used them anything like > that > way himself; you CAN run them as strict ways of > attaining immortality, or you can view them as > guidance of the kind of scale of quest and energy > required to attain immortality. Hi Cab, good to see you on this list! :) Similar quests, though modified to fit my needs is definately the way to go. Looking at the existing Mystaran Immortals it is clear that they too did not usually follow the paths suggested in BECMI. To me it would probably be most useful if the sponsors of the PCs got together and designed a series of quests that the PCs could accomplish together. This would fit both In Game and Out of Game needs and be rather enjoyable. Hmmm...I might even let the players roll up a group of high level PCs and get on with the Questing right away... :) Håvard ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 17:25:38 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: Diaboli --- CAB Davidson wrote: > Have them appear as almost ghostly creatures, they > should be almost invisible on the Astral and rather > frightening on the prime. Because they're kind of > obscure, they're handy to bring into a campaign to > surprise mid to high level characters with. They > look > downright nasty, but they're not. They're merely > very, > very 'different'. I like this idea of making them mysterious like that. I dont think the various illustrations of them does the race justice. Especially this whole purple skin thing just came out wrong. As chaotic by nature, what would their agenda be on the Prime Plane? Håvard ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 17:38:20 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Quests for Immortality: Alternatives? Havard Faanes ha scritto: > The problem is not IMO that the PC doesn't need a > party to survive. Uhm, a lone PC may always need some help -- the only time when I DMed a PC on his way to Immortality (an high-level wizard), he was nearly lost, had not his former comrades mounted a rescue mission to the Negative Plane. GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 17:51:18 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: What's your Thyatis like? --- la Volpe skrev: > In my campaign no dragon-riders, thanks. I don't get > it that any dragon would serve (or be bound) in the > ranks of human troops... I like Dragon-riders, but I agree that finding a dragon who is bound to a human master is something that happens very rarely. PC's occationally manage to defeat a dragon binding it to servitude, but this would not be something to make an army from. Dragons forming an alliance with humans and allowing some to ride them I dont have a problem with, though it moves things in a somewhat Dragonlance-ish direction. From previous discussions, I have decided, like Giampaolo that this alliance between Thyatis and the Dragons of either Ochaela or Wyrmsteeth (or both) was a temporary agreement since both were interested in balancing off the power of Alphatia. With Alphatia gone, the alliances were abandoned and Thyatian airborne riders now use Wyverns. Part of this is also that I like identifying types of flyers with nations: Thyatis: Wyverns, Air Ships Elves: Griffons, Lightships Ethengar: Pegasi Ylaruam: Flying Carpets Glantri: Flying Brooms Heldann: Warhawks Hule: Flying Barges Håvard ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 20:49:58 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Quests for Immortality: Alternatives? On 23/05/06, Havard Faanes wrote: > > The problem is exactly the opposite, if the party is > disbanded, then the other players wont have anything > to do and the campaign will die. This is to my > experience exactly what happens when people start > questing for Immortality. And we are back to the basic problem -- would the players play a support character in a party? If not, then there isn't much to do anyway. Skipping the quest for Immortality part and let the PCs regroup as novice Immortals after some "down time" would be the best choice. GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 20:53:15 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: What's your Thyatis like? > From previous discussions, I have decided, > like Giampaolo that this alliance between Thyatis and > the Dragons of either Ochaela or Wyrmsteeth (or both) > was a temporary agreement since both were interested > in balancing off the power of Alphatia. > > With Alphatia gone, the alliances were abandoned and > Thyatian airborne riders now use Wyverns. OTOH, there might be other threats -- the Myoshimans and/or the Heldannic Knights. Also, most dragons in the Knights of Air serve because they like the company of humans, not because they are there on some official agreement (that idea works best for the R.A.F.). GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 17:17:49 -0300 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: Quests for Immortality: Alternatives? Why do the comrades of the questing hero have to be "support" characters? In battles can't the villains be a few heavy-hitters for the questing hero to take care of plus a number of minions? Is the questing hero's cause his own or does he share it with the other player characters? This is a problem with any group regardless of level-of-play. How does the paladin co-operate with the thief? Well, what if the questing hero is a thief and he has a lower-level paladin in his party? Is the thief good and following a non-entropic path that supports an Immortal the paladin thinks is kosher? If so, then it shouldn't be a problem. The paladin will become a hero for playing a part in the quest, right? Well, she should. If the quest and patron Immortal aren't kosher to the paladin then how did the campaign progress this far? There may be social, role-playing situations that require the questing hero's friends take the lead. This is especially true if, say, your hero is an elf and part of the quest requires interacting with dwarves. You have a dwarf, halfling or human party member interact with the dwarves directly. The biggest problem I had in any game was making the whole campaign fit the entire group of players. One thing you need are cooperative players. Another is you need them all to have PC goals that are sympatico with one another. With that the first PC's campaign to Immortality should be able to springboard the other PCs, one after another. On 23/05/06, Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > On 23/05/06, Havard Faanes wrote: > > > > The problem is exactly the opposite, if the party is > > disbanded, then the other players wont have anything > > to do and the campaign will die. This is to my > > experience exactly what happens when people start > > questing for Immortality. > > And we are back to the basic problem -- would the players play a > support character in a party? If not, then there isn't much to do > anyway. Skipping the quest for Immortality part and let the PCs > regroup as novice Immortals after some "down time" would be the best > choice. > > GP > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 22:33:04 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Quests for Immortality: Alternatives? On 23/05/06, Steven Carter wrote: > Why do the comrades of the questing hero have to be "support" > characters? Two main reasons: 1) The questing character is the focus of the campaign -- his quest is the most important event, and this character receives the greatest advancement. 2) The other characters, being his apprentices, are usually of lower level -- most testimony characters are only required to raise up to 12th level or so. Other high level characters (the old party members) could not be part of the quest, because the immortal candidate is supposed to be the main hero there -- what's so heroic in vanquishing all wizards in the area if you do so thanks to your friends? Also, they would most likely be on their own quest for immortality by now. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 21:37:29 +0100 From: CAB Davidson Subject: Re: Quests for Immortality: Alternatives? --- Havard Faanes wrote: > Hi Cab, good to see you on this list! :) I used to use it a couple of years back, but it stopped working, seemed to have died. Clearly not :) > Similar quests, though modified to fit my needs is > definately the way to go. Looking at the existing > Mystaran Immortals it is clear that they too did not > usually follow the paths suggested in BECMI. Some did, some didn't. There are enough exceptions that its worth thinking about the quests as 'guidelines'. WotI formulated those quests a little too strictly for my tastes. > To me it would probably be most useful if the > sponsors > of the PCs got together and designed a series of > quests that the PCs could accomplish together. This > would fit both In Game and Out of Game needs and be > rather enjoyable. Hmmm...I might even let the > players > roll up a group of high level PCs and get on with > the > Questing right away... :) More satisfying if they play up through the levels, IMHO. The high level party in my game are now aware of the possibility. ___________________________________________________________ All New Yahoo! Mail – Tired of Vi@gr@! come-ons? Let our SpamGuard protect you. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 21:41:43 +0100 From: CAB Davidson Subject: Re: Diaboli --- Havard Faanes wrote: > I like this idea of making them mysterious like > that. > I dont think the various illustrations of them does > the race justice. Especially this whole purple skin > thing just came out wrong. As chaotic by nature, > what > would their agenda be on the Prime Plane? Exploration, searching out rare materials, adventuring, etc. They're intelligent, so there's no reason why they shouldn't be found out doing this kind of thing. Bear in mind that depending on your take on Diaboli and the dimension of nightmares, they're not necessarily other planar creatures. Following the Mentzer view of Nightmare dimensions, they're merely creatures native to a different set of slightly overlapping dimensions in the prime (although without checking, I could have that wrong). ___________________________________________________________ Now you can scan emails quickly with a reading pane. Get the new Yahoo! Mail. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 18:34:08 -0700 From: John Arendt Subject: Re: MYSTARA-L Digest - 21 May 2006 to 22 May 2006 (#2006-102) <> IMMORTALS QUEST: I completely agree with Havard that the individual quests for Immortality are problematic for a group. Right now it's only a hypothetical question for me, since my PC's are only about 6th level and we have years to go, but thinking ahead, I know I really don't have endless time to run multiple individual gaming sessions (and all of the hard work building individual quests for each of them), when/if they become 36th level. The questing rules as written are not set up practically for good group play. It just means when we get there, I'll need to contort the quest rules as much as possible to allow group-legal quests or perhaps allow multiple PC's to be sponsored at one time by a group of like-minded Immortals (like a 'Clique' or 'Group'). DRAGONS: Since I'm on the digest, I don't know if someone else mentioned this one for the Dragon reference - Dragon Mag had an article in Dragon 171 called 'Who's Who Among Dragons'. I've found it very useful for placing legendary & named dragons in my game. John --------------------------------- Ring'em or ping'em. Make PC-to-phone calls as low as 1¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 22 May 2006 to 23 May 2006 (#2006-103) ****************************************************************