Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 12 Jun 2006 to 13 Jun 2006 (#2006-118) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 14/06/2006, 17:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 29 messages totalling 2370 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. New to list / hunting for B1 (11) 2. Next Edition of D&D (OT) (9) 3. RC Skill system (8) 4. The Princess Ark ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 01:41:35 -0500 From: Jeff Heikkinen Subject: Re: New to list / hunting for B1 Daniel wrote: > They had the location in B1-9 (the combined modules) but darned if I can find it right now. As far as a quick check can determine, B1-9 has almost nothing on B1. It is mentioned in passing as an optional side trek just after "Journey to the Rock"; an NPC, who tries to convince the party that he is working for Duke Stephen but is really working for Baron von Hendriks, *might* have a map to Quasqueton on him if killed, *if* the DM has stocked it. The sidebar in question (on page 23) says nothing about where to actually put Quasqueton. -- "The vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Oct. 27, 2003 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 01:47:03 -0500 From: Daniel Subject: Re: New to list / hunting for B1 IIRC there's a map somewhere at the start of the book that suggests where to put things. Jeff Heikkinen wrote: The sidebar in question (on page 23) says nothing about where to actually put Quasqueton. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 08:55:33 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: New to list / hunting for B1 How about having it located in Darokin, with agressive Athruaginers or even the Desert Nomads of Hule being the agressors? If you set it in Karameikos, using the Goblins of Dymrak or the Orcs of Wufwolde is probably the best replacement of the "barbarians". Or even the Death's Head Gnolls(detailed in B10) if you use Threshold as a starting point... Håvard --- Todd Myers skrev: > Yes that was also my thinking I have the Karameikos > box set so that is where I will prob start > The area described implies that it is close to > barbarian tribes (Rogahn and Zelligar having helped stop a invasion) I was > wondering where this might fit. > I suppose I could change the story to a Orc, Kobold, > Hobgoblin, invasion. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:02:57 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Next Edition of D&D (OT) Erol Bayburt ha scritto: > > Now setting is good too, and I think the Gazetteers were wonderful. Especially the Karameikos, Alfheim, and Rockholm ones. But the skill rules introduced in them were painfully inadequate - I think 3.x was worth adopting for the sake of its actually-decent skill system alone. I think that's mostly matter of personal tastes -- I find the skill system of OD&D quite good: easy to use (just choose 4 skills), flexible (need a skill? write the description, and there it is), and realistic (it's easy to get a "working knowledge" of any skill, at least if you're talented enough, but then it becomes hard to improve beyond your limits) -- at least more than the 3e system. GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:22:51 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: RC Skill system --- Giampaolo Agosta skrev: > I think that's mostly matter of personal tastes -- I > find the skill system of OD&D quite good: easy to use (just choose > 4 skills), flexible (need a skill? write the description, and there it > is), and realistic (it's easy to get a "working knowledge" of any > skill, at least if you're talented enough, but then it becomes hard to improve > beyond your limits) -- at least more than the 3e system. The flaws with the RC/Gaz skill system as I see it: 1. There are no hard set rules on how they work unskilled. Some skills are probably impossible to use if you dont have them, but others not. 2. Poorly integrated with the Thief Ability rules. 3. Hard to improve once you have them. Although as you say this could be seen as realistic. OTOH, what does that say about the progression of other abilities (combat, magic etc?). There are ways of fixing all of these, but I have yet to see fixes that I am 100% happy with... Håvard ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 02:52:44 -0500 From: Jeff Heikkinen Subject: Re: New to list / hunting for B1 Daniel wrote: > IIRC there's a map somewhere at the start of the book that suggests where to put things. Not that I can see. There's a flowchart giving three possible mini-campaigns using subsets of the adventures in the book, but no map that fits that description. > Jeff Heikkinen wrote: > The sidebar in question (on page 23) says nothing about where to actually put Quasqueton. > >> > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > -- "The vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Oct. 27, 2003 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 10:00:11 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: RC Skill system Havard Faanes ha scritto: > > The flaws with the RC/Gaz skill system as I see it: > 1. There are no hard set rules on how they work > unskilled. Some skills are probably impossible to use > if you dont have them, but others not. I don't think it would be so difficult to come up with rules for unskilled actions. Given the flexibility of the skill set, it's obviously impossible to give hard rules -- every skill needs to be evaluated by the DM, who may allow a roll on 1/2 or 1/3 of the ability score. I feel this is best left to the DM's judgement anyway. > 2. Poorly integrated with the Thief Ability rules. The OD&D Thief Skills rules are poor by themselves, though they are integrated in the skills system to some extent (it's possible to use a skill slot to buy a Thief skill). Also, the OD&D skill system is /optional/, so it must be loosely coupled with the rest of the game. > 3. Hard to improve once you have them. Although as you > say this could be seen as realistic. OTOH, what does > that say about the progression of other abilities > (combat, magic etc?). The characters are supposed to be incredibly powerful in some areas -- a 36th level Fighter is definitely superhuman in combat, but this does not mean they need to be superhuman in every respect: what's the point, in the D&D game, to have superhuman bakery skills? IMO, this is part of the D&D game: combat, magic, and thievery are more important than other skills, and can be raised to superhuman levels. Therefore, they are the province of character classes, not of general skills. It's not that other options are not available, it's just that they do not fit with the class-based structure of the game. If I had to give the same model (either realistic or high-powered) to all skills I'd probably go for a non-class-based game (e.g., GURPS, Fuzion or Unisystem). GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 03:02:56 -0500 From: Daniel Subject: Re: New to list / hunting for B1 Could swear I've seen one somewhere...Dragon maybe? They suggested B1 take place on the left side of the map near Darokin, north of Black Eagle Barony. Of course I went out to the shed (shudder, bugs, yech) and couldn't find it. ON the other hand I found Mekton II, Cyberpunk 2020 (the original 3 black books), Traveller Alien modules, Star Trek books from FASA and LUG, the hardbacks for D&D1 (including the Deities & Demigods with Chthulu & Elric), and the Simon Hawke time-wars books I thought I had sold by mistake. In 3 months when all of this is passed, of course I'll find it. Jeff Heikkinen wrote: > Daniel wrote: >> IIRC there's a map somewhere at the start of the book that suggests where to put things. > > Not that I can see. There's a flowchart giving three possible mini-campaigns using subsets of the adventures in the book, but no map that fits that description. > >> Jeff Heikkinen wrote: >> The sidebar in question (on page 23) says nothing about where to actually put Quasqueton. >> >>> >> >> ******************************************************************** >> The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >> The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com >> To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >> with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. >> > > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 03:12:16 -0500 From: Jeff Heikkinen Subject: Re: Next Edition of D&D (OT) Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > I think that's mostly matter of personal tastes -- I find the skill system of OD&D quite good: easy to use (just choose 4 skills), flexible (need a skill? write the description, and there it is), and realistic (it's easy to get a "working knowledge" of any skill, at least if you're talented enough, but then it becomes hard to improve beyond your limits) -- at least more than the 3e system. Improving them, at least, isn't particularly easy in 3E and is *too* hard in the RC system. It's just not as difficult IRL to steadily improve in most skills as you or the RC make it out to be. They're also far too tightly bound to ability scores; while those obviously influence things to an extent, I don't know *anyone* whose profile of abilities *exactly* tracks their overall strength, agility and such in that way. You have a point when it comes to ease of use, but appealing to realism is *not* the way to defend the RC system. -- "The vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Oct. 27, 2003 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 10:31:03 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Next Edition of D&D (OT) Jeff Heikkinen ha scritto: > > Improving them, at least, isn't particularly easy in 3E Why not? Improving a skill with a very high level in 3E is exactly as difficult as improving a skill with a very low level (and difficulty grows linearly as well). In a sense, you could say that 3e promotes specialization, where RC promotes diversification of skills. > It's just not as difficult IRL to steadily improve in most skills as you or the RC make it out to be. I know, RC is obviously an oversimplification, but still more realistic than 3e. Better systems (from the realism point of view) do exist, obviously (GURPS or even AD&D, especially the Player's Option skill system), it's just that (1) 3e is not one of them and (2) they're too complex for my tastes (I don't even use the PO skills system in AD&D...) Bye, GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 04:12:50 -0500 From: Jeff Heikkinen Subject: Re: Next Edition of D&D (OT) Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > Jeff Heikkinen ha scritto: > >> >> Improving them, at least, isn't particularly easy in 3E > > > Why not? Improving a skill with a very high level in 3E is exactly as difficult as improving a skill with a very low level (and difficulty grows linearly as well). To do either one, in 3E, requires you to go out and get a fairly broad range of experiences in the world, some of which seemingly have nothing to do with the skill you're improving. That's not altogether realistic but it's closer than I suspect you're giving it credit for, but it's ANYTHING but easy! -- "The vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Oct. 27, 2003 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 11:44:22 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Next Edition of D&D (OT) Jeff Heikkinen ha scritto: > > To do either one, in 3E, requires you to go out and get a fairly broad range of experiences in the world, some of which seemingly have nothing to do with the skill you're improving. That's not altogether realistic but it's closer than I suspect you're giving it credit for, but it's ANYTHING but easy! No, that's not the issue I'm raising -- it's simply the standard D&D behaviour: you get experience for killing monsters, and you improve your skills. It's the same in OD&D as well. It's more that it has the same experience cost (number of levels) to raise from "average competence" to "good competence" as from "extreme competence" to "superhuman compentence" in a given skill, which is IMO the major problem with 3e skills (and in general with skill systems where the cost for improving is linear). GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 11:12:45 +0100 From: CAB Davidson Subject: Re: RC Skill system --- Havard Faanes wrote: > The flaws with the RC/Gaz skill system as I see it: > 1. There are no hard set rules on how they work > unskilled. Some skills are probably impossible to > use > if you dont have them, but others not. Thats where the DM comes into the equation. Want to swim? Has your character got the skill? Has your Ylari character ever been near a body of water? No? Then you splash about a bit and stay afloat, but you're not making much progress. Want to start a fire? Got a flint and tinder? No? Well, you faff around with the sood for a long time, eventually you get something going, if only it wasn't so wet you'd have had a good nights sleep, shame you didn't have the firebuilding skill... > 2. Poorly integrated with the Thief Ability rules. Ahh, yes. Still looking for the 'single integrated skill mechanic', the ever elusive way of making thieves, skills and weapon mastery work on the same system for advancement. Thieves are the single element that has improved with every edition of D&D. > 3. Hard to improve once you have them. Although as > you > say this could be seen as realistic. OTOH, what does > that say about the progression of other abilities > (combat, magic etc?). That depends on how you view it. Remember that the Minrothaddan gazetteer allows a tradesman to improve his skill by a point per five years of practice, and remember that therefore improving a skill doesn't just make you one blip better in it. When you put it into the context of what we get in the Minrothad gaz, its the difference between an apprentice and a journeyman or a journeyman and a craftsman. > There are ways of fixing all of these, but I have > yet > to see fixes that I am 100% happy with... Me neither. Especially the 'single integrated mechanic'. Classic didn't manage it, 3e doesn't manage it, AD&D never managed it. I'd been thinking about a sytem whereby skills could be percentile, based on 5x the stat minus a skill number, based on how difficult the skill is. Most character classes would get extra points per level, getting to add a quarter of the appropriate skill stat to any one skill, with thieves getting to add the entire stat. That works out very like normal skill progression for most characters (a wee bit faster) but its just too complex for my tastes. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 07:41:57 EDT From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: New to list / hunting for B1 In a message dated 6/13/2006 4:02:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, drake01@HOT.RR.COM writes: Could swear I've seen one somewhere...Dragon maybe? They suggested B1 take place on the left side of the map near Darokin, north of Black Eagle Barony. I believe the map you're referring to is in the D&D Expert rulebook somewhere (blue Elmore cover)...a map of the Known World with suggested placement of various published modules. I don't have it handy, unfortunately, so I can't say where they placed B1... ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 14:27:26 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: New to list / hunting for B1 Who needs books when you have Thorf? http://mystara.thorf.co.uk/replica/_24_/expert-set-known-world-24.png Using this location for B1, I would suggest the Barbarians were Gnolls of the Death's Head Tribe. Håvard --- Wizards Shopper skrev: > > In a message dated 6/13/2006 4:02:02 A.M. Eastern > Standard Time, drake01@HOT.RR.COM writes: > > Could swear I've seen one somewhere...Dragon maybe? > They suggested B1 take place on the left side of the map near > Darokin, north of Black Eagle Barony. > > > > > > I believe the map you're referring to is in the D&D > Expert rulebook somewhere (blue Elmore cover)...a map of the Known > World with suggested placement of various published modules. > > I don't have it handy, unfortunately, so I can't say > where they placed B1... > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 14:36:32 +0200 From: Peter Balazs Subject: Re: New to list / hunting for B1 Hi! > Not that I can see. There's a flowchart giving three possible mini-campaigns using subsets of the adventures in the book, but no map that fits that description. But wasn't there a map in the 'blue' book, putting the published adventures in the known world? (Currently I am not in my home country, so I can't check.) XXL ------ Peter 'XXL' Balazs ------ - http://unet.univie.ac.at/~a8927259 - ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 15:39:57 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: RC Skill system --- CAB Davidson skrev: > > The flaws with the RC/Gaz skill system as I see > it: > > 1. There are no hard set rules on how they work > > unskilled. Some skills are probably impossible to > > use > > if you dont have them, but others not. > > Thats where the DM comes into the equation. Yeah, this very rules light approach probably works well. The rules lawyer in me doesnt like it too much though. I would have liked to see something like a standard -4 penalty for instance to any attempts at non skilled skill use. Or even a Roll below attribute on a D% rather than a D20... > > 2. Poorly integrated with the Thief Ability rules. > Ahh, yes. Still looking for the 'single integrated > skill mechanic', the ever elusive way of making > thieves, skills and weapon mastery work on the same > system for advancement. Yes and no. Although I like 3E's way of handling things, the Gaz Skill system made things even worse by allowing Thief Abilities to be selected as Skills. Most seem to have handled this as allowing selected skills to be used as Thief Level 1 rather than D20 below Attribute, but this wasnt stated clearly anywhere AFAIK. Again, perhaps a D% below attribute could also have worked... > > 3. Hard to improve once you have them. Although as > > you > > say this could be seen as realistic. OTOH, what > does > > that say about the progression of other abilities > > (combat, magic etc?). > > That depends on how you view it. Remember that the > Minrothaddan gazetteer allows a tradesman to improve > his skill by a point per five years of practice, and > remember that therefore improving a skill doesn't > just > make you one blip better in it. When you put it into > the context of what we get in the Minrothad gaz, its > the difference between an apprentice and a > journeyman > or a journeyman and a craftsman. Good points. Also, if the penalty for non skilled use isnt too steep, then a +1 is a better investment than if buying a new skill means you're able to do something you wouldnt normally be able to do at all... > > There are ways of fixing all of these, but I have > > yet > > to see fixes that I am 100% happy with... > > Me neither. Especially the 'single integrated > mechanic'. Classic didn't manage it, 3e doesn't > manage > it, AD&D never managed it. These days, if I was looking for a single mechanic it would have to be the D20 core mechanic. It is annoying that 3e doesnt manage to use it all the way though. I should probably just go and buy True20 and shut up, shouldnt I? ;) > I'd been thinking about a sytem whereby skills could > be percentile, based on 5x the stat minus a skill > number, based on how difficult the skill is. Most > character classes would get extra points per level, > getting to add a quarter of the appropriate skill > stat > to any one skill, with thieves getting to add the > entire stat. That works out very like normal skill > progression for most characters (a wee bit faster) > but > its just too complex for my tastes. How about D% below Attribute for all skill checks, with a bonus for easier than Very Difficult checks rather than penalties. Non skilled use would be the same as skilled, but you would never get a bonus even if conditions were better than really bad. Spending skill points would add +5 per add. Normally one would get 1 skill point per level beyond the 4 at first level. Some more ideas with this system: * The higher number rolled the better. * Pairs; 11, 22, 33 etc would be considered critical successes as long as they were within the characters skill range. This would indicate a better success than usual. * Thief skills can only be taken by thieves. In a contest between a Thief and a non thief, you need a critical success to beat a Thief's normal success. Only a Thief can beat another Thief's critical success. Håvard ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 15:44:35 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: Next Edition of D&D (OT) --- Giampaolo Agosta skrev: > No, that's not the issue I'm raising -- it's simply > the standard D&D behaviour: you get experience for killing monsters, > and you improve your skills. It's the same in OD&D as well. A side note: This is the first rule anyone should change IMO. I advise strongly against giving XP for killing monsters at all. It has very strange effects on how characters are being roleplayed. :( > It's more that it has the same experience cost > (number of levels) to raise from "average competence" to "good competence" > as from "extreme competence" to "superhuman compentence" in a given > skill, which is IMO the major problem with 3e skills (and in general > with skill systems where the cost for improving is linear). But this is solved by the increasing number of XPs required for each level, which limits your skill ranks... Håvard ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 08:55:41 -0500 From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: RC Skill system When I was running D&D here is how I did it: Everything was skill based except fighting (that used the THAC0 system). I introduced Spell Casting as an INT-based skill, Prayer as a WIS-based skill, etc. Thief Skills were ususally based on either INT, DEX, or CHA. Thieves gained skill points to apply to their special skills as they increased in level. If you attempted to use a skill you didn't have you needed to make a half stat roll; so if you tried to ride a horse without the skill you needed to make a half DEX roll; thus a DEX of 12 would require a 6 or less on a d20. There were also restricted skills (like Thief skills, languages, or those controlled by guilds and societies), if you didn't have these skills not only where they half-stat rolls, they also had a -5 to the roll over that. Move Silently with a DEX of 16 would then require 8 (half DEX) - 5 = 3 on a d20. I also applied the Weapon Mastery System of skill increases to Skills. I had an extensive list of what each level of Mastery allowed you to do with a skill. George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Havard Faanes" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 8:39 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] RC Skill system > --- CAB Davidson skrev: > >> > The flaws with the RC/Gaz skill system as I see >> it: >> > 1. There are no hard set rules on how they work >> > unskilled. Some skills are probably impossible to >> > use >> > if you dont have them, but others not. >> >> Thats where the DM comes into the equation. > > Yeah, this very rules light approach probably works > well. The rules lawyer in me doesnt like it too much > though. I would have liked to see something like a > standard -4 penalty for instance to any attempts at > non skilled skill use. Or even a Roll below attribute > on a D% rather than a D20... > >> > 2. Poorly integrated with the Thief Ability rules. > >> Ahh, yes. Still looking for the 'single integrated >> skill mechanic', the ever elusive way of making >> thieves, skills and weapon mastery work on the same >> system for advancement. > > Yes and no. Although I like 3E's way of handling > things, the Gaz Skill system made things even worse by > allowing Thief Abilities to be selected as Skills. > Most seem to have handled this as allowing selected > skills to be used as Thief Level 1 rather than D20 > below Attribute, but this wasnt stated clearly > anywhere AFAIK. Again, perhaps a D% below attribute > could also have worked... > >> > 3. Hard to improve once you have them. Although as >> > you >> > say this could be seen as realistic. OTOH, what >> does >> > that say about the progression of other abilities >> > (combat, magic etc?). >> >> That depends on how you view it. Remember that the >> Minrothaddan gazetteer allows a tradesman to improve >> his skill by a point per five years of practice, and >> remember that therefore improving a skill doesn't >> just >> make you one blip better in it. When you put it into >> the context of what we get in the Minrothad gaz, its >> the difference between an apprentice and a >> journeyman >> or a journeyman and a craftsman. > > Good points. Also, if the penalty for non skilled use > isnt too steep, then a +1 is a better investment than > if buying a new skill means you're able to do > something you wouldnt normally be able to do at all... > >> > There are ways of fixing all of these, but I have >> > yet >> > to see fixes that I am 100% happy with... >> >> Me neither. Especially the 'single integrated >> mechanic'. Classic didn't manage it, 3e doesn't >> manage >> it, AD&D never managed it. > > These days, if I was looking for a single mechanic it > would have to be the D20 core mechanic. It is annoying > that 3e doesnt manage to use it all the way though. I > should probably just go and buy True20 and shut up, > shouldnt I? ;) > >> I'd been thinking about a sytem whereby skills could >> be percentile, based on 5x the stat minus a skill >> number, based on how difficult the skill is. Most >> character classes would get extra points per level, >> getting to add a quarter of the appropriate skill >> stat >> to any one skill, with thieves getting to add the >> entire stat. That works out very like normal skill >> progression for most characters (a wee bit faster) >> but >> its just too complex for my tastes. > > How about D% below Attribute for all skill checks, > with a bonus for easier than Very Difficult checks > rather than penalties. Non skilled use would be the > same as skilled, but you would never get a bonus even > if conditions were better than really bad. Spending > skill points would add +5 per add. Normally one would > get 1 skill point per level beyond the 4 at first > level. > > Some more ideas with this system: > * The higher number rolled the better. > * Pairs; 11, 22, 33 etc would be considered critical > successes as long as they were within the characters > skill range. This would indicate a better success than > usual. > * Thief skills can only be taken by thieves. In a > contest between a Thief and a non thief, you need a > critical success to beat a Thief's normal success. > Only a Thief can beat another Thief's critical > success. > > > Håvard > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 15:59:24 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: The Princess Ark Just thought I'd mention that Bruce Heard has returned to the WotC boards commenting on the recent Princess Ark episode. http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=291 Håvard ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:27:47 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: RC Skill system --- George Hrabovsky skrev: > When I was running D&D here is how I did it: snip Sounds like a decent way of handling it! In particular I liked this part: > I also applied the Weapon Mastery System of skill > increases to Skills. I had an extensive list of what each level of Mastery > allowed you to do with a skill. Feel like sharing any of this? :) Håvard ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:38:58 -0500 From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: RC Skill system Assuming that I can find it. :-) That was ten years ago... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Havard Faanes" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 9:27 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] RC Skill system > --- George Hrabovsky skrev: > >> When I was running D&D here is how I did it: > > snip > > Sounds like a decent way of handling it! > > In particular I liked this part: > >> I also applied the Weapon Mastery System of skill >> increases to Skills. I had >> an extensive list of what each level of Mastery >> allowed you to do with a >> skill. > > Feel like sharing any of this? :) > > Håvard > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 10:36:56 -0500 From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: RC Skill system Here are fragmentary Notes that I Wrote: Skill Mastery System: Skills taught by an instructor = weapon skills based upon the skill of the teacher. Time to learn a skill in this way takes: Basic = ½ time ± 5% per attribute bonus, 10 gp per week Skilled = full time ± 5% per attribute bonus, 25 gp per week Expert = double time ± 5% per attribute bonus, 50 gp per week Master = quadruple time ± 5% per attribute bonus, 75 gp per week Grand Master = Eight times normal time ± 5% per attribute bonus, 100 gp per week. Learning on your own: Similar to spell research, this allows people to gain skills without needing skill or weapon slots. The formula is as follows, Chance of Success = (Stat + Lvl) x 2 - (Skill Level x 3) Melee weapons are strength based, missile weapons are dexterity based . Skill levels are: Basic = 1, Skilled = 3, Expert = 5, Master = 7, Grand Master = 9. Learning a skill on your own takes twice as long as normal. Using a weapon or skill slot gives you a free chance at success. Failure gives you a +10% chance for the next attempt. Some Specific Skills: Acrobatics (Dex based) Base Time: 1 month Basic: The character can perform impressive feats of acrobatics. Success allows the character to reduce the effective height of a fall by 10'. Skilled: Choose one specialty from the list below: Manual Dexterity: +1 to any dex-based skill other than acrobatics. Moving Skill: +25% movement rate. Steadiness: +1 to hit with any weapon, or perform any precision work. Agility: +1 to any movement related skill other than acrobatics, -1 to AC. Expert: Choose one specialty from skilled, if a specialty is taken a second time see below: Manual Dexterity: as above. Moving Skill: the character can leap their level in feet up, and twice that across (beyond what is normal for the race). Steadiness: +1 to surprise or stealth type skills. Agility: +1 to hit with melee and thrown weapons. Master: Choose another specialty, none can be taken more than twice. Grand Master: As Master. Acting (Cha based) Base Time: 2 weeks Basic: The character can make a living as an actor. The ability to assume a different personality or show false emotions convincingly. Allows the character to lie convincingly over a period of hours. Skilled: The actor can keep up the fiction for up to a week. Expert: The actor can keep the finction going for up to a month. Master: The actor can keep up the fiction for an indefinite period of time. Alchemy (Int based)$ Base Time: 3 months Basic: The character can identify common alchemical substances, potions, and poisons. The character can also make antidotes for the substances, potions, and poisons. Alchemists start with this level of skill. Such antidotes should have a price of 10 gp per PP of the effect they will counteract (with 50% of the cost going for ingredients). A day can substitute for the cost on a successful Alchemy roll. Skilled: The character can make common alchemical substances, potions, and poisons. The character can also identify uncommon and researched substances, poisons, and potions after 1d6 hours per power level of the substance being identified in a laboratory. If identified, the character can research an antidote. Begin gaining 1 Power per level from this level on. Alchemists gain this mastery at 3rd level. Such potions should have a cost of 10 gp per Power of the effect they duplicate (with 50% of the cost being for ingredients). A day can substitute for every 10 gp of cost on a successful alchemy roll. Expert: The character can research new alchemical substances, potions, and poisons. The character can identify common alchemical devices and constructs. Alchemists gain this mastery at 5th level. Research of new potions and the like requires 100 gp per day. The length of time to perform such research is 7 days + 1 day per PP of the substance. Ten days per Power can substitute for the cost of research on a successful Alchemy roll. Master: The character can make common alchemical devices and constructs. The character can recognize true alchemy. Begin gaining 2 Power per level from this level on, this supersedes the 1 Power gained from Skilled level. Alchemists gain this mastery at 7th level. Alchemical devices are identical to magic items except that they can only be dispelled by gods or named spirits. Alchemical constructs are magical machines which likewise are immune to the dispelling of all but gods and named spirits. The base cost for creating such things are equal to their initial value x 5. The actual cost will be their initial cost x the total Power for each operation they perform. Divide this cost by 100 to determine the number of days required. On a successful Alchemy roll this cost can be converted into time on a ten days = 100 gp ratio. Grand Master: The character can begin the Great Work. Alertness (Dex based) Base Time: 1 week. Basic: Draw a weapon without losing an action. Negate the effects of surprise. Wake-up at the slightest out-of-place sound. Skilled: Ability to negate surprise the round prior to its need. Expert: Ability to negate the effects of a sprung trap. Master: Ability to detect and fight invisible beings with only a -2 detriment, rather than the normal -4. Grand Master: Ability to fight invisible beings at no detriment. Alternate Magics (Int based)$ Base Time: 3 Months Basic: Familiarity with spell casting not of your style. Knowledge of the magical powers of common beings. Skilled: Extend familiarity to uncommon beings. Expert: Extend familiarity to rare beings. Master: Extend familiarity to very rare beings. Grand Master: The character can use magic items which would not otherwise be possible due to class restrictions. Animal Empathy (for a spcific animal type) (Wis based) Base Time: 2 Months Basic: The character can communicate intuitively with the type of animal specified. Expert: The character can form a telepathic link with their type of animal. Grand Master: The character can call 1 HD/level of the specified animal type. Animal Training (for a specific type of animal) (Wis based)$ Base Time: 1 Month Basic: The character can raise, train, and care for their type of animal. Skilled: The character can train one animal per level at once. Expert: The character can communicate intuitively with the animal type. Master: The character can train an animal in skills not normally associated with that animal. Grand Master: The character can awaken mystical/magical/psychic skills within the animal. Art (choose type)$ Base Time: 1 Month. Basic: The artist can make a living at making art. +2 to NPC reactions. Skilled: The artist can make a good living. +3 to NPC reactions. Expert: The artist can trade artwork for specific goods and services. +4 NPC reactions. Master: The artist can make a lavish living with their art. +5 NPC reactions. Grand Master: The artist is wealthy and has political power. +6 NPC reactions. Artillery (Int based)* Base Time: 1 Month. These are large weapons, specified under the weapon system for each land. Assassin (Str, Int, or Dex for learning only)* Base Time: 3 months Basic: If striking from surprise there is a chance 50% ± 5% per level difference between the assassin and the target (+ if the difference is in favor of the assassin, - if in the favor of the target). Additionally, the assassin has learned the capabilities of hiding, moving silently, concealment of weapons, setting/locating/removing traps, evading capture, Skilled: +5% Expert: +10% Master: + 15% Grand Master: +20% Banditry (Dex based)* Base Time: 2 Months. Basic: The bandit has the ability to set ambushes and traps in the wild, detect and remove traps in the wild, hide and move silently in the wild, orienteering, and survive in the wild. Expert: The bandit gains the ability to disguise his/her trail, or the trail of others. Grand Master: The bandit can sense the presence of unnatural creatures in the wild. Bargaining (Cha based)$ Base Time: 2 Weeks. Basic: Allows the character to get the best deal possible. Skilled: 5% Bonus in favor of the character. Expert: 10% Bonus. Master: 15% bonus. Grand Master: 20% bonus. Blind Shooting (Dex based) Base Time: 1 Month. Basic: The ability to shoot at a target only heard. Master: The ability to shoot at a target unseen or unheard. Bravery (Wis based) Base Time: 2 Weeks Basic: Ability to resist fear. Expert: Raise morale of those with the character by 1. Grand Master: +1 Bonus to Save vs Fear of all who can see the character. Brawling (Str based) Base Time: 2 Weeks (50% chance of losing 1 hp each day) Basic: The ability to fight crowds (only). Allows double damage for each point of strength bonus. Only ¼ of the damage is real. Expert: Triple damage per bonus. Grand Master: Quadruple damage per bonus. Burglary (Dex based)* Base Time: 2 Months Basic: Allows the burglar to pick locks (with suitable tools), climb walls and similar objects, find and remove traps, spot hidden hiding places where treasure might be found, evade capture by pursuers, hide, move silently, appraise goods, and gain local criminal connections. Skilled: Can sense danger. Expert: Can open locks with common items. Grand Master: Can become invisible while standing perfectly still. Caving (Wis based) Base Time: 2 Weeks. Basic: The character has underground orienteering. Expert: Can sense danger underground. Ceremony (Wis based)* Base Time: 1 Month. Basic: Allows the cleric to perform ceremonies of worship, adulthood, marriage, and death. Skilled: Allows the cleric to perform initiation ceremonies. If the cleric is 2nd level or higher they can perform consecrations of places, people, or things. Expert: If the cleric is 4th level or higher they can ordain other clerics. May prepare holy manuscripts. Master: If the cleric is 4th level or higher they can perform an excommunication. Grand Master: The cleric may call upon direct divine aid: miracles, spiritual servants, or the appearance of an avatar. Cheating (Dex based)$ Base Time: 2 Weeks. Basic: Winning games of chance by cheating. At the beginning of the game make the Cheating roll. Each oponent gets a cheating roll, a Gambling roll at -1, or an Int roll at -4 to detect the cheating. Clericism (Wis based)* Base Time: 2 Months Basic: The cleric understands the religious doctrine and theology of the religion. The cleric also understands the administrative concerns of the religion. Expert: The cleric can become inspired to produce new revelations and new doctrine. This includes personal prayers. Master: The cleric can produce special prayers for use only by selected members of the religion. Grand Master: The cleric can create new general purpose prayers for the whole religion. Climbing (Dex based) Base Time: 1 Week Basic: The ability to climb normal (climbable) objects. Craft (Dex based) (Choose a craft)$ Base Time: 1 Month Basic: The character knows one craft. The character can make a living with this craft. Skilled: The character can make a decent living at the craft. Expert: The character is in high demand and is recognized for his/her work. Master: Make a good living off the goods produced. Grand Master: On a Master work, the character creates a +1 magical item. Cut Purse (Dex based)* Base Time: 2 Months Basic: The cut-purse has the ability to pick pockets, perform sleight of hand, spot guards and the police, spot tails, evade pursuit, hide, and move silently. Skilled: The character can strike a target while in a crowd and not be seen. Expert: Ability to disappear completely into a crowd, or to follow someone who can. Master: The ability to "sense" surveillance. Dancing (Dex based) Base Time: 1 Week Basic: The character can dance at social events and make a good impression. The character has some grace. Skilled: The character can make a living as an personal escort. Expert: +1 to all movement related Dex skills (other than dancing). Danger Sense (Wis based) Base Time: 2 Weeks. Basic: The DM makes a roll against your skill, if successful the character knows there is imminent danger. Negates surprise. Skilled: As above, but up to a minute in advance. Expert: As above, there is some information about the nature of the danger, not usually complete though (based upon the level of success; master-work: complete knowledge, journeyman level: a good idea of the type of danger, skilled level: some idea). Deception (Cha based) Base Time: 1 Week Basic: The ability to lie convincingly. Skilled: The character can tell extraordinary tales convincingly. Expert: Empathic powers will not detect the lie. The character can pull off small con jobs. Master: Can fool interrogators. Can pull off big cons. Grand Master: Cannot be detected as lying even by ESP or similar powers. Detect Deception (Wis based) Base Time: 2 Weeks. Basic: Ability to detect lies. Grand Master: The character can detect grand master deceptions. Disguise (Cha based)$ Base Time: 1 Month. Basic: The character can look like someone else. The target gets an Int roll to see through the disguise (less the level of success). Drinking (Con based)$ Base Time: 2 Weeks. Basic: The character can drink without getting drunk. First failure, the character is drunk. Second failure, the character is out cold. Endurance (Con based) Base Time: 2 Weeks. Basic: The character can perform an arduous task for an hour. Check each hour with a -1 penalty (cumulative after the first hour). Engineering (Int based)$ Base Time: 1 Month. Basic: Planning, designing, building, and evaluating major constructions. Equestrian (Dex based)$ Base Time: 3 Months. Basic: The ability to perform amazing feats of riding. Escape (Dex based) Base Time: 1 Month. Basic: Ability to get free from imprisonment (this can take a LONG time depedning on the imprisonment). Grand Master: Can escape from magical imprisonment. Evade (Int based) Base Time: 1 Week. Basic: Ability to elude pursuers. Fighter (Str based)* Base Time: 1 Month. Basic: The character has the requisite training for being a soldier in an army. Specifics: basic tactics for the type of unit they specialize in, knowledge of encampment, rudiments of fortification, understanding of battle signals, understanding of the battlefield itself, and battlefield leadership ability. Expert: The character can organize and run an army. Master: The character has a knack for understanding the enemy and identifying weaknesses once an enemy force has been spotted. Grand Master: The fighter can inspire followers to fight without morale checks. Fighting Frenzy (Con based) Base Time: 1 Month. Basic: The ability to fight on after reaching 0 hp or below. Collapse at the end of the battle, or when a check is failed. Find Traps (Int based) Base Time: 2 Months. Basic: The ability to locate hidden traps. Food Tasting (Con based)$ Base Time: 1 Week. Basic: Ability to sense food spoilage, avoiding food poisoning. Skilled: Ability to sense poisons. Gambling (Wis based)$ Base Time: 1 Month. Basic: Ability to win money at games of chance by skill rather than cheating. Healing (Int based)$ Base Time: 1 Month. Basic: Ability to treat one set of wounds and diagnose illness. A successful roll allows the healer to cure 1d3 of damage. A success of greater than 3 allows the healer to know if a disease is magical or natural. Skilled: The damage healed is now 1d6. Natural illnesses can be cured with an herbal concoction requiring d10 g.p. or on a successful Nature Lore roll following an entire day. Expert: The damage healed is 1d10. Poisons may be treated now, as illnesses were for skilled. Master: The damage healed is now 1d20. Magical illnesses may now be treated as natural illnesses at skilled, though substitute an Alchemy roll for the Nature Lore. Grand Master: The damage healed is now 3d12. Hear Noise (Int based) Base Time: 1 Week. Basic: The ability to hear faint noises of importance. Hiding (Int based) Base Time: 2 Weeks Basic: The ability to remain unseen while motionless. Hunting (Int based) Base Time: 2 Months Basic: The ability to locate, stalk, and hunt game. This confers the ability to move quietly and to hide. +1 to hit with their primary hunting weapon vs. an unsuspecting target. The level of success determines how many people you can supply food for each day. Skilled: +2 vs unsuspecting targets. Expert: +3 vs. unsuspecting targets, +1 vs all other targets. Interrogation (Wis based) Base Time: 2 Months. Basic: The character can cause their target to reveal facts by just talking with them for a couple of hours. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Havard Faanes" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 9:27 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] RC Skill system > --- George Hrabovsky skrev: > >> When I was running D&D here is how I did it: > > snip > > Sounds like a decent way of handling it! > > In particular I liked this part: > >> I also applied the Weapon Mastery System of skill >> increases to Skills. I had >> an extensive list of what each level of Mastery >> allowed you to do with a >> skill. > > Feel like sharing any of this? :) > > Håvard > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:51:50 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Next Edition of D&D (OT) Havard Faanes ha scritto: > >> It's more that it has the same experience cost >> (number of levels) to raise from "average competence" to "good competence" >> as from "extreme competence" to "superhuman compentence" in a given >> skill, which is IMO the major problem with 3e skills (and in general >> with skill systems where the cost for improving is linear). > > But this is solved by the increasing number of XPs > required for each level, which limits your skill > ranks... Then you could say that the opposite problem in OD&D could be fixed by requiring less XPs per level. But still, it's not the problem I'm pointing at: my issue is that, regardless of XPs/level, the number of skill points required to increase (at any given character level) by one rank a skill maxed out in the previous character level is exactly the same as the number of skill points needed to raise a skill from zero to one (e.g., one point), which seems to me very unrealistic, as it means that (1) cost for learning the basics of one skill is exactly the same as perfecting a skill to high degree and, if you want to take into account your XP cost consideration (2) learning the basics of any skill becomes more difficult as you make more experience... GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:11:28 -0700 From: Jenni Merrifield Subject: Re: New to list / hunting for B1 Todd Myers wrote: > Hello everyone I have just recently started subscribing to this list. > after years of my old D&D modules being stored away I have brought them=20 > out to entertain a new Generation we are suppose to start in a week or so=20 > we will see how that goes. > > What I wanted was to start with the very first B1 In Search of the=20 > Unknown, I have the module but none of the maps of Quasqueton. (I could=20 > try to produce something based on the room descriptions) it would be nice=20 > to have the original of something close to use. > =20 > Also where in Mystara might this be taking place > =20 > Suggestions of the Barony of Ratik, the Duchy of Tenh or the Theocracy of=20 > the Pale from GREYHAWK are given what are the Mystara equivalents. =20 Todd: The last time I ran B1 I placed it in Darokin in the mountains to the north between Lake Amsorak and the border to the Broken Lands. Traditionally, it is placed somewhere in Karameikos, although I'm not sure exactly where. I also adapted it by adding some additional back story and modifying a few elements to make things mesh together. If you're interested, you can read up on my adaptations at the Vaults of Pandius: http://pandius.com/b1_intro.html=20 -J -- Jenni A.M. Merrifield | walking on water and | designing to requirements are easy | so long as both are frozen design - development - usability user experience specialist software engineer -- ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:17:58 -0700 From: Anthony Edwards Subject: Re: Next Edition of D&D (OT) I know many people who have the chief complaint about 3e that they lost alot of character power when this new version came out and they converted their character. An example from my game: Malik "the Freed" was a former slave within the Empire of Thyatis using the 1st Ed. AD&D and later the 2nd Ed. AD&D. By the time 2nd Ed. came out he was a: Human Male Neutral Ftr9/Thief10/Cleric5 By the time 3e came out he was a: Human Male Neutral Ftr9/Thief10/Cleric12/Wiz9 (and would have stayed with wizard he claimed until the character came to his end or died of old age). Now, such a character had VERY broad scope and very varied abilities and he was very happy with his character. When 3e came out it went thus: Human Male Neutral Ftr4/Thief6/Cleric10/Wiz9 (epic character) who was adventuring with not-so-epic characters. Needless to say, Malik "the Freed" took a major hit on his power and range of ability. My player decided to no longer play Malik in fact and shortly after that decided he wanted to play 2nd Ed. again so he could have his character back. I came up with a solution: Characters can still multi-class in my game in a manner similar to 1st Ed. and 2nd Ed.! You can play your character to 9th level as a Fighter. Then you can play your character to 10th level as a Rogue too! Then you can play your character to 12th level as a Cleric...and still only be a 12th level character! It tends to make powerful characters...yes indeed (in certain aspects); but it allows my players to feel better after 20+ years of playing it one way only to have everything they are used to taken out from under them. The mechanic is simple: We don't use prestige classes (only because I didn't want to take the time to figure out a way to integrate them into my system). You have to use the Base Attack of your new class until your level exceeds your former class at which time you can choose which you want (but do not add them together). Your saving throws are those of your new class until you exceed your old class and can choose which is higher of each of the three (but do not add them together). You recieve no new HP until your new class exceeds the level of your old class; at which time you get a new Hit Die equal to your new class (just like the old system). Although, in my system we also don't get Hit Dice after level 9; but instead only get bonus Hit Points based on class (exactly the same as 2nd Edition bonus HP) Extra points for stat progression is based on your highest level; so if you were a 9th level fighter and had recieved 2 points to place in your stats, your new character class would have to reach level 12 before you got another point. Extra skill points are gained for each level of your new class; but there is a penalty of -1 per level and no INT bonus (but INT penalties do apply, which CAN result in zero points for a level) until your new class exceeds the level of your old class. FIRST LEVEL skill points are spent as normal (with the multiplier); but again with no INT bonus, only penalties. Your maximum ranks in a skill are based on your OLD level until such time as your new class level exceeds your old class level; but new points may not be spent so that a skill progresses beyond your current level +3. This is the most difficult part of the setup for my game; very difficult to track unless the DM works with the players at every new level when spending points. It also somewhat handicaps classes that really count on that first cluster of points to spend on lots of different skills. (still not happy with the arrangement I've come up with) New Feats could be gained based on your new level; but only feats gained from the class level itself. Bonus feats due to cumulative level can only be gained just as bonus Stat points (i.e. a 9th level fighter that changed to a rogue wouldn't gain another bonus feat until his rogue level reaches 12, but would gain all feats from the rogue class itself). Class special abilites were not stackable until your new level exceeds your old level (a Rogue's abilities would not stack with his old barbarian levels for example until his rogue levels exceed his barbarian levels). Players CAN use their other class abilites if they choose while their new level is lower than their old level; but they can gain no experience for doing so and ALSO have a 50% penalty on their next two encounters because it takes time to slide back into their new habits and let go of old patterns. The primary thing is how xp works! I settled on an idea that still uses the XP chart from 3e/3.5 that places a bit of a restriction on players abusing the system of rapid xp progression when they are grouped with their friends who are still using their old character levels (i.e. Ftr9/Rogue1 grouped with Pal9, Wiz9, Rgr9 and he gets xp as a level 1 Rogue grouped with 3 9th level characters): A character gains experience at a -50% rate when grouped with any character more than two levels higher than their current character level. Also the character gains xp as if his character level were an average of all his character levels (the player still has the benefit of previous Hit Points, magic items gained, and etc...) AND I do NOT award xp to characters that just try to soak xp (meaning they have to contribute SOMEHOW to every experience the party has and can't just sit around getting xp so that they are safe or what have you). I've found that this still allows the character to gain experience fast enough to stay with his fellow adventurers; but not so fast that he ends up being a Ftr9/Rogue10 by the time his fellows are just a level or so above his Rogue level! (still not happy with this either honestly) All this is a little bulky; but then so were previous versions of Dungeons and Dragons. Personally I like simplicity; but I've found most of my players just "Want it the way it was before" and I had to do something. So for those of you that "Want it the way it was before" and haven't been satisfied with 3e; hope this helps a little. Anthony Edwards President, Black Magi Press Inc. (yeah...you haven't heard of us...YET!) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:06:32 -0500 From: Jeff Heikkinen Subject: Re: Next Edition of D&D (OT) Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > Jeff Heikkinen ha scritto: > >> >> To do either one, in 3E, requires you to go out and get a fairly broad range of experiences in the world, some of which seemingly have nothing to do with the skill you're improving. That's not altogether realistic but it's closer than I suspect you're giving it credit for, but it's ANYTHING but easy! > > > No, that's not the issue I'm raising -- it's simply the standard D&D behaviour: you get experience for killing monsters, and you improve your skills. It's the same in OD&D as well. > > It's more that it has the same experience cost (number of levels) to raise from "average competence" to "good competence" as from "extreme competence" to "superhuman compentence" in a given skill, which is IMO the major problem with 3e skills (and in general with skill systems where the cost for improving is linear). And the major problem with systems where it *isn't* is that it encourages characters to all end up looking the same, because you're better off opening a new skill than improving an existing one and there are (usually) only so many useful ones. -- "The vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Oct. 27, 2003 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:09:58 -0500 From: Jeff Heikkinen Subject: Re: New to list / hunting for B1 Peter Balazs wrote: > Hi! > >> Not that I can see. There's a flowchart giving three possible mini-campaigns using subsets of the adventures in the book, but no map that fits that description. > > > But wasn't there a map in the 'blue' book, putting the published adventures in the known world? (Currently I am not in my home country, so I can't check.) Possible. I only ever owned the Expert set with the Erol Otis cover. How well-integrated that is with B1-9 is also something I couldn't tell you, but I would hope reasonably well. -- "The vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Oct. 27, 2003 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 02:42:14 -0400 From: chatdemon Subject: Re: New to list / hunting for B1 Todd wrote: > I have the module but none of the maps of Quasqueton. (I could try to > produce something based on the room descriptions) it would be nice to have the > original of something close to use. If all you need is the maps, I can possibly help. Some time ago I scanned the maps from a few of my often used modules so I could print out "play copies" that I can mark on, spill sodas on, etc. I uploaded the maps from B1 to my website if you want to grab them. 346kb zip file (of 356kb pdf) http://keepontheinternet.com/files/b1maps.zip Hope that helps, chatdemon ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 12 Jun 2006 to 13 Jun 2006 (#2006-118) ****************************************************************