Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 3 Sep 2006 to 4 Sep 2006 (#2006-146) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 05/09/2006, 17:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 16 messages totalling 810 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Aaron Allston hates dwarves! (12) 2. Could Dwarves sell books? (4) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 16:50:12 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: Aaron Allston hates dwarves! The Morigswergs are very interesting, It is a shame that they didnt get more coverage in the official material. Heck, they should have gotten their own gaz! :) Håvard --- Jacob Skytte skrev: > Only if they're Modrigswerg. : P > > Jacob > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Havard Faanes" > To: > Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 10:46 AM > Subject: [MYSTARA] Aaron Allston hates dwarves! > > > > Okay, I dont know if that is a fact... > > > > But consider: > > > > DotE: a whole boxed set and Denwarf Hurgon gets > how > > little coverage? > > > > HW: One dwarven culture (of misfits nonetheless) > and > > how many elven cultures? > > > > WotI: What happens to Rockhome? > > > > Dwarves can have interesting cultures too cant > they? > > > > Håvard > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 16:54:20 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: Aaron Allston hates dwarves! --- Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > Aaron Allston wrote the Rockhome gazetteer, though! Hmmm...good point :) > Anyway, I think elves get a larger number of > cultures because: > 1) the Dwarven history is quite linear, and modern > dwarves are a recent creation Well, true, but if they really wanted to, they could easily have gotten around that one. a)There could have been descendants of the Elder Dwarven race who had found other ways to survive without the help of Kagyar. b)Kagyar could have created more cultures outside of Rockhome. c) More attention could be given to the existing non-dwarven cultures. > 2) Players seem (at least in my experience) to > prefer elves Yes, I am sure that is part of the reason. I imagine it was particularly true at the time when the gaz line was written, and the trend may indeed have come back now, possibly a side effect of the "Legolas factor" of the LotR trilogy. Håvard ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 17:19:12 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Aaron Allston hates dwarves! Havard Faanes ha scritto: > > a)There could have been descendants of the Elder > Dwarven race who had found other ways to survive > without the help of Kagyar. Well, those are the Kogolor. > b)Kagyar could have created more cultures outside of > Rockhome. He did: he created the Modrigswerg as well as the Denwarf. > c) More attention could be given to the existing > non-dwarven cultures. ? GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 17:31:12 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: Aaron Allston hates dwarves! --- Giampaolo Agosta skrev: > Havard Faanes ha scritto: > > > a)There could have been descendants of the Elder > > Dwarven race who had found other ways to survive > > without the help of Kagyar. > Well, those are the Kogolor. Yes, but could there have been more? Maybe other races that developed in the Outer World, perhaps making bargains with other immortals or using magical/Blackmoor artifacts to survive? Or could Kagyar have dumped other dwarves in the Hollow World, like the Kogolor, but which developed differently? > > b)Kagyar could have created more cultures outside > of > > Rockhome. > > He did: he created the Modrigswerg as well as the > Denwarf. And even more? > > c) More attention could be given to the existing > > non-dwarven cultures. Errr, typo. I meant non-ROCKHOME dwarven cultures, such as the settlers of Alphatia, Thyatis, Karameikos etc. The point is not really what Allston thinks. That was just meant as an eye catcher topic name. The general assumption is that the dwarves of Alphatia, Thyatis and Karameikos are virtually indenical to those of Rockhome. But is it possible that they have developed different cultures? Even though they are young civilizations, they cultures could have developed before they left Rockhome, perhaps even being the reason why they left? Håvard ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 11:16:50 -0500 From: Eric Anondson Subject: Re: Aaron Allston hates dwarves! There has been a lengthy thread on ENWorld about why "Dwarves don't sell novels" that has wandered all over the spectrum. Basically, the lack of fanboy love to dwarves is all over the place. WotC knows it via market research and avoids putting dwarves on the cover art when possible. http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=171312&page=1&pp=40 Incidentally, the topic wandered into the subject of whether D&D can import sci-fi elements and still be popular lest it give up the mantle of "true and pure fantasy" that people are attracted to. We just had a similar thread by Havard a few weeks ago... That ENWorld thread had both in one! Regards, Eric Anondson ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 18:27:56 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Aaron Allston hates dwarves! On 04/09/06, Havard Faanes wrote: > > Yes, but could there have been more? Maybe other races > that developed in the Outer World, perhaps making > bargains with other immortals or using > magical/Blackmoor artifacts to survive? Mah, we already have technomantic gnomes in Davania. I think too much of this stuff would make the setting too weird. Of course, there's plenty of space for everything, but I don't feel the need for many other dwarven subraces/subcultures, especially since the Dwarves are the archetype of traditionalism. > Or could Kagyar have dumped other dwarves in the > Hollow World, like the Kogolor, but which developed > differently? Of course, there's plenty of space in the HW, but cultures in the HW don't evolve much. Also, there's not much point in dumping duplicate culture -- you make double effort, when the SoP guarantees the result with a single population. > And even more? He probably preferred to concentrate his efforts on a single culture -- even the Modrigswerg didn't get much attention (actually, none at all). > Errr, typo. I meant non-ROCKHOME dwarven cultures, > such as the settlers of Alphatia, Thyatis, Karameikos > etc. As mentioned in other posts, the Alphatian and Thyatian dwarves have been around for a short time only. How would a dwarven nation that has existed for only 50 years (a single dwarven generation, more or less) become that different from Rockhome, considering the stereotypical traditionalism of Dwarves, and the fact that the Alphatians are not exactly going out of their way to integrate them? > Even though they are young > civilizations, they cultures could have developed > before they left Rockhome, perhaps even being the > reason why they left? As always, it's not that it is impossible -- it's just somewhat unlikely, given the dwarven character and society. The dwarven outcasts of the Northern Reaches seem to be the more likely to become a new dwarven culture. GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 19:15:08 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: Aaron Allston hates dwarves! --- Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > Mah, we already have technomantic gnomes in Davania. > I think too much > of this stuff would make the setting too weird. Of > course, there's > plenty of space for everything, but I don't feel the > need for many > other dwarven subraces/subcultures, especially since > the Dwarves are > the archetype of traditionalism. I wasnt neccesarily suggesting that they would be technomantic. Rather they could be living near some Blackmoor device that protected them from Radiation, thus not needing the modification by Kagyar. Ofcourse it is only a possible excuse if one wanted to include more Dwarves. > Of course, there's plenty of space in the HW, but > cultures in the HW > don't evolve much. Also, there's not much point in > dumping duplicate > culture -- you make double effort, when the SoP > guarantees the result > with a single population. Yes, not too much development after dumped into the Hw I suppose. Clans that were different in the first place, or made different by Kagyar could have been placed there though. The Kogolor were likely modified by Kagyar in terms of culture before being placed in the HW werent they? Otherwise they would have been more similar to the Blacklore elves, no? > As mentioned in other posts, the Alphatian and > Thyatian dwarves have > been around for a short time only. How would a > dwarven nation that has > existed for only 50 years (a single dwarven > generation, more or less) > become that different from Rockhome, considering the > stereotypical > traditionalism of Dwarves, and the fact that the > Alphatians are not > exactly going out of their way to integrate them? Unless they were different in the first place. Even in rockhome, each clan has its distinctive traits. No reason why these emigrant colonies shouldnt be the same? As mentioned before, their differences could even have been the reason why they left... > As always, it's not that it is impossible -- it's > just somewhat > unlikely, given the dwarven character and society. > The dwarven > outcasts of the Northern Reaches seem to be the more > likely to become > a new dwarven culture. Good point with the Norse Dwarves. They are quite interesting. IMC a new Dwarven colony was founded in the Hardanger mountains by one of the PCs... I guess one of my reasons for suggesting more civilizations for Dwarves (and halflings too) is that I consider Humans, Dwarves, elves and Halflings to the be MAJOR RACES of Mystara. Possibly we could throw in a few more into that group, like the Lupins and Rakasta, but being major races, it seems likely that they should have a major presence in the setting. Where does this Major Race concept come from? Mostly from the Classic D&D rules. We have had discussions elsewhere about the impact of the rules, and another implication of this is that the Core Races should have a large presence in the setting. Furthermore, the Northern Reaches Gaz mentions the concept of Major Races when discussing the Kobolds. It spreads some hint that the Kobolds could be another Major race along with the Demi-Humans. I doubt that they are, but it reinforces the idea that the Demihumans should be... Håvard ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 19:22:46 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Could Dwarves sell books? Wow, thats freaky how EnWorld and my mind work the same way! :) So, is there any reason why Dwarves couldn't sell books? Isn't the main problem that people aren't opening their minds to things that could make dwarves more interesting? Håvard --- Eric Anondson skrev: > There has been a lengthy thread on ENWorld about why > "Dwarves don't sell novels" that has wandered all over the > spectrum. Basically, the lack of fanboy love to dwarves is all over the > place. WotC knows it via market research and avoids putting dwarves on > the cover art when possible. > > http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=171312&page=1&pp=40 > > Incidentally, the topic wandered into the subject of > whether D&D can import sci-fi elements and still be popular lest it > give up the mantle of "true and pure fantasy" that people are > attracted to. We just had a similar thread by Havard a few weeks > ago... That ENWorld thread had both in one! > > > Regards, > Eric Anondson > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 20:17:08 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Aaron Allston hates dwarves! On 04/09/06, Eric Anondson wrote: > There has been a lengthy thread on ENWorld about why "Dwarves don't > sell novels" that has wandered all over the spectrum. It's because they've got a racial penalty to Charisma :P GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 20:22:59 +0200 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: Aaron Allston hates dwarves! --- Giampaolo Agosta skrev: > It's because they've got a racial penalty to > Charisma :P *lol* :) Well, yes it is. Attractiveness sells, and few people find dwarves attractive. Same goes with certain hairy-footed races... However, the fact that you have Sea Elves, Dark Elves, Jungle Elves, Winter Elves, Mountain Elves, Sky Elves, Techno elves, Celtic Elves, Celestial elves, Wolf Riding Elves etc etc also helps making that race more interesting. Although Dwarves also have some subraces/cultures I think this is a shamefully unexplored area, which could have helped make that race more interesting. Same goes for Halflings and Gnomes really. Håvard ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 20:43:39 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Aaron Allston hates dwarves! On 04/09/06, Havard Faanes wrote: > > The Kogolor were likely modified > by Kagyar in terms of culture before being placed in > the HW werent they? Otherwise they would have been > more similar to the Blacklore elves, no? Not necessarily. We don't know what happened to the Kogolor Dwarves during the Blackmoor era: maybe high technology didn't catch their interest -- modern Kogolor Dwarves are much less interested in technology than the Denwarf. Or maybe the clans that went high tech were annihilated like their human counterparts -- only the Blackmoor elves were saved, not the humans, the halflings or any other race. > Unless they were different in the first place. Even in > rockhome, each clan has its distinctive traits. No > reason why these emigrant colonies shouldnt be the > same? As mentioned before, their differences could > even have been the reason why they left... Yes, they may well have distinctive traits. But even then, the Rockhome clans already cover a lot of different dwarven attitudes and characters (and, IMO, are much more detailed and interesting than the elven clans of Alfheim, which might be another reason while more diversity is not needed with Dwarves, but it is with elves). Anyway, Alphatian dwarves are probably more similar to the Burhodar, while the Karameikan Dwarves are mostly Syrklist, IIRC. > Good point with the Norse Dwarves. They are quite > interesting. IMC a new Dwarven colony was founded in > the Hardanger mountains by one of the PCs... Considering that the Norse Dwarves are much more rough and much less lawful than Rockhome Dwarves (being outcasts), they might make for an interesting diversion, without going too far from the established image of the Dwarves. > I guess one of my reasons for suggesting more > civilizations for Dwarves (and halflings too) is that > I consider Humans, Dwarves, elves and Halflings to the > be MAJOR RACES of Mystara. Possibly we could throw in > a few more into that group, like the Lupins and > Rakasta, but being major races, it seems likely that > they should have a major presence in the setting. Well, I don't consider halflings (and gnomes) a major race -- while I do include Lupins and Rakasta. As for Dwarves and, even though there aren't many different Dwarven civilization, there are many dwarves: the population of Rockhome is easily equal to or higher than the entire elven population of the surface -- and there are probably more Shadow Elves/Shattenalfen than surface elves. > Where does this Major Race concept come from? Mostly > from the Classic D&D rules. We have had discussions > elsewhere about the impact of the rules, and another > implication of this is that the Core Races should have > a large presence in the setting. While there are some things from the OD&D rules that I consider important for the setting, they are usually expressed in terms of absence rather than presence ;) Anyway, few people played Halflings in OD&D, so maybe they really shouldn't be a major race (plus, between Leeha, 5 Shires, Ierendi and Darokin we already have as many of the pesky little fellows as any setting might ever want :P ) > Furthermore, the Northern Reaches Gaz mentions the > concept of Major Races when discussing the Kobolds. It > spreads some hint that the Kobolds could be another > Major race along with the Demi-Humans. I doubt that > they are, but it reinforces the idea that the > Demihumans should be... To me, it's ok if the "core" races are available in the "core" areas of the setting, but the rest of the world is supposed to be exotic, so different races would be much better. GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 20:51:54 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Aaron Allston hates dwarves! On 04/09/06, Havard Faanes wrote: > > Well, yes it is. Attractiveness sells, and few people > find dwarves attractive. Same goes with certain > hairy-footed races... Seriously, I think that's the main point. Elves are (supposedly) cool, Dwarves are not -- part because of their physique, part because of their profession (engineers don't happen to be cool :( ). > However, the fact that you have Sea Elves, Dark Elves, > Jungle Elves, Winter Elves, Mountain Elves, Sky Elves, > Techno elves, Celtic Elves, Celestial elves, Wolf > Riding Elves etc etc also helps making that race more > interesting. It's probably only my opinion, but that just makes them more bland, since these subraces are basically all preferred environment + cool human with pointy ears. It may be good for selling books, but it's not good for roleplaying (there are exceptions, of course, the SE and the Minrothad Water Elves are good variants, while e.g. the HW variants are quite bland). GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 11:54:47 -0700 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Aaron Allston hates dwarves! Hmm... we could beef up the dwarves. There are some holes to fill in. IMC= , there was a clan left behind in Glantri. Several Mages really took a dis= like to these dwarves and cursed them (they are my equivalent of gully dwar= ves). They had a longer time away from the main line dwarves. There is also the Denwarf question. Was he really deep underground and asl= eep? Or was he building other cultures of dwarves for Kagyar? Possibly Ka= gyar could not change all the dwarven race to his liking, or even he tried = different ways. Then Denwarf could be seen as a missionary bringing the ot= her lost clans in line. Where are these other clans? There could be one o= r two near ancient Blackmoor, but they need to be very stealthy in order to= hide from all those elves that kept exploring. Deeper underground would b= e an excellent source. These lost clans must be very successful for none o= f them made it to the Hollow World. Now imagine running the Denwarf Civil = War Campaign, and having several units of Deep Dwarves coming to his aid? _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with gadgets on Windows Live Spaces http://discoverspaces.live.com?source=3Dhmtag1&loc=3Dus= ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 21:01:03 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Could Dwarves sell books? On 04/09/06, Havard Faanes wrote: > Wow, thats freaky how EnWorld and my mind work the > same way! :) > > So, is there any reason why Dwarves couldn't sell > books? Isn't the main problem that people aren't > opening their minds to things that could make dwarves > more interesting? There are only two options, either people starts reconsidering some factors that currently make Dwarves "not so cool" as factors that make them cool, or Dwarves change to adopt what is considered cool. Since the latter option would make them humans in disguise (or, worse, elves in disguise!), the only real option is that people start finding short, bearded, overweight engineers cool :) That would indeed be useful too, since then I'd only have to put on some weight :P GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 12:10:02 -0700 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Could Dwarves sell books? One of the things that makes dwarves un-cool is their history. In LOTR, th= ey had a reason to distrust elves, they also had a very grand past. In Mys= tara they keep hiding away and only have a racial distrust of elves, with n= o clear reason. In fact, they have a racial tolerance to halflings, but wi= th the history of the Shires, I would see this as an opposite effect. Mayb= e the dwarves that enslaved the Hin are actually not Kagyar's dwarves and a= re some other dwarf completely? =20 _________________________________________________________________ Use Messenger to talk to your IM friends, even those on Yahoo! http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=3D7adb59de-a857-45ba-81cc-= 685ee3e858fe= ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 21:21:57 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Could Dwarves sell books? On 04/09/06, Chris Cherrington wrote: > One of the things that makes dwarves un-cool is their history. In LOTR, they had a reason to distrust elves, they also had a very grand past. In Mystara they keep hiding away and only have a racial distrust of elves, with no clear reason. In fact, they have a racial tolerance to halflings, but with the history of the Shires, I would see this as an opposite effect. Maybe the dwarves that enslaved the Hin are actually not Kagyar's dwarves and are some other dwarf completely? AFAIK, the average dwarf doesn't have any grudge with the Hin -- OTOH, the Hin had good reasons to hate the dwarves. But the Dwarves that enslaved the Hin fall in the same league with the Norse Dwarves -- troublemakers cast out of Rockhome, who may give an undeserved bad reputation to the entire race. Of course, they may have established other clans somewhere else, so that there may be new clans of more aggressive and somewhat evil dwarves. GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 3 Sep 2006 to 4 Sep 2006 (#2006-146) **************************************************************