Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 8 Sep 2006 to 9 Sep 2006 (#2006-151) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 10/09/2006, 17:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 8 messages totalling 314 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Sorcerers in Mystara (8) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 07:37:01 -0700 From: The Stalker Subject: Re: Sorcerers in Mystara On Fri, 8 Sep 2006 20:19:36 EDT, Robert Dunlap wrote: > That said I was wondering how others have used or dealt with the inclusion > of the Sorcerer class from the D&D 3.0 or 3.5 games. I haven't. In those few 3e adventures I've run, I outlawed them. Completely. As in "they don't exist". If the players asked, my answer was "There is no such thing. These are not the droids you're looking for - move along!" Because I don't think the 3e version of a sorcerer fits with Mystara. You would have to explain how they suddenly sprang out of the group, which is pretty difficult, when the nations that really focus on arcane magic like Alphatia, Glantri, and to a lesser degree Thyatis all do so on a basis of scholorly pursuits. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 18:21:05 -0300 From: "Vinicius R. de Moraes" Subject: Re: Sorcerers in Mystara Robert Dunlap wrote: > Hello, > > While I'm aware this has probably been discussed before (perhaps repeatedly) I am only now returning to this mailing list after several years away. Welcome back, Bob!!! > I am about to take up the role of DM once more and I'm looking at Mystara as the likely setting of the campaign. > > That said I was wondering how others have used or dealt with the inclusion of the Sorcerer class from the D&D 3.0 or 3.5 games. I'm wondering how you've included this class (if you have) into the history and feel of the campaign. Have you back-storied their existence to include them in nations such as Glantri or Alphatia, or have you approached their presence as something new in the world (perhaps related to the Day of Dread or something similar)? > > >From my standpoint when I think of sorcerers in Mystara I immediately think of Hule. I envision that nation (or that entire region) to be thick with sorcerers. > > Thanks, > Bob > How about Atruaghin? Vini ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 18:15:54 EDT From: Robert Dunlap Subject: Re: Sorcerers in Mystara In a message dated 9/8/2006 11:11:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, rogergirtman2@HOTMAIL.COM writes: I tend to think of sorcerers as more primitive arcane spellcasters... Atruaghin and Ethengari would have more sorcerers than wizards, while "civilized" nations would be reversed. Partially civilized nations like the Northern Reaches and Sind would have an equal mix of both. As spellcasters, they would still be noble in Alphatia, but not in Glantri, as they are not educated. I've seen other instances where sorcerer magic is considered a more primitive or barbaric form of wizardry, and I agree that the Atruaghin clans magic users probably stem from the sorcerer class. I recall that the Ethengar have an animosity toward the wizards of Glantri, and I'm wondering if the Ethengar people would accept even sorcery magic into their midst willingly. Although the fact that sorcery plays out and is cast differently than wizardry spells, that the powers of a sorcerer might be looked upon as stemming from a more "spiritual" source, and therefore be accepted. I would have to agree with you on the nobility issues regarding Alphatia and Glantri. Bob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 18:22:29 EDT From: Robert Dunlap Subject: Re: Sorcerers in Mystara In a message dated 9/9/2006 12:25:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ErolB1@AOL .COM writes: For NPC elves, I'm trying to work out either an Expert designed to be a spellcasting NPC class, or a bard downgraded to NPC-class status. I'll probably go with the latter. The "favored class" for PC elves in the Broken Worlds is bard, and I've made the bard a bit more marital, upgrading it in response to the general consensus that bards are perhaps the weakest PC class - I've given them d8 hit dice instead of d6, and exchanged whip proficiency for proficiency with bows & medium armor (& I allow them to cast in medium armor without "arcane spell failure") This sounds like your trying to move the Elves back to their old OD&D fighter/magic user roots. I really liked that setup. Bob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 15:30:58 -0700 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Sorcerers in Mystara Robert Dunlap wrote: > I've seen other instances where sorcerer magic is considered a more primitive or barbaric form of wizardry, and I agree that the Atruaghin clans >magic users probably stem from the sorcerer class. I tend to view sorcery not necessarily as more primitive or barbaric, but rather as just natural, as opposed to the more mechanical and static form of magic used by wizards. I liken it to the changes wrought in technology through various advancements- for example, the longbow is to sorcery as the crossbow is to wizardry. Both are very effective and useful (in some areas more than others), but whereas the longbow takes a natural ability and intense training to make use of (the old expression, "if you want to make an archer, you start with his grandfather"), while the other requires less natural aptitude and less training. Okay, maybe not a terribly apt analogy (as wizardry is a lot more complex than a crossbow), but the point is- wizardry, IMO, is the formalization of the underlying nature of magic, and as it is studied more and its processes even more stratified, more people are able to make use of it, while sorcery is a more esoteric practice. That said, I used to think there could only be schools of wizardry, but while thinking about it recently, I came up with a theory that I also posted on the MMB a while back about schools of sorcery. In my view, there could be schools for both, but whereas the Schools of Wizardry would be hard facts and figures and memorization, Schools of Sorcery would be more esoteric, philosophical, ponderable. Sorcerers would be more inclined to discuss the nature of magic, its sources, etc, rather than dissect it for its rules like Wizards would. > I recall that the Ethengar have an animosity toward the wizards of Glantri, and I'm wondering if the Ethengar people would accept even sorcery magic into their midst willingly. The Ethengarians dislike of the Glantrians has more to do with the Glantrians being godless heathens than their use of magic, although the Ethengars definitely fear and respect magic. Their hakomons are powerful but relatively few in number, and tend to exist outside the traditional clan structure. If you don't mind ignoring the description of the hakomons as using "spell sticks" to write down their magic in place of spell books, then I'd say they are a perfect fit for sorcerers. Wu Jen would also be suitable for hakomons. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 18:31:01 EDT From: Robert Dunlap Subject: Re: Sorcerers in Mystara In a message dated 9/9/2006 9:38:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, alphatian@MYWAY.COM writes: I haven't. In those few 3e adventures I've run, I outlawed them. Completely. As in "they don't exist". If the players asked, my answer was "There is no such thing. These are not the droids you're looking for - move along!" Because I don't think the 3e version of a sorcerer fits with Mystara. You would have to explain how they suddenly sprang out of the group, which is pretty difficult, when the nations that really focus on arcane magic like Alphatia, Glantri, and to a lesser degree Thyatis all do so on a basis of scholorly pursuits. This is exactly the basis behind my question. I don't want to outlaw the class, per se. I'm thinking along the lines of there being a sort of social stigma to the whole idea of sorcery, with the common folk and Magic Schools seeing the practice as unnatural and maybe even evil. Still thinking on this though. Bob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 18:33:27 EDT From: Robert Dunlap Subject: Re: Sorcerers in Mystara In a message dated 9/9/2006 5:21:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vinimagus@TERRA.COM.BR writes: How about Atruaghin? Vini Yeah I can see sorcerers working as Witch Doctors or something similar to that in this culture. Bob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 18:52:44 EDT From: Robert Dunlap Subject: Re: Sorcerers in Mystara In a message dated 9/9/2006 6:31:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jsmill@WANS.NET writes: Okay, maybe not a terribly apt analogy (as wizardry is a lot more complex than a crossbow), but the point is- wizardry, IMO, is the formalization of the underlying nature of magic, and as it is studied more and its processes even more stratified, more people are able to make use of it, while sorcery is a more esoteric practice. That said, I used to think there could only be schools of wizardry, but while thinking about it recently, I came up with a theory that I also posted on the MMB a while back about schools of sorcery. In my view, there could be schools for both, but whereas the Schools of Wizardry would be hard facts and figures and memorization, Schools of Sorcery would be more esoteric, philosophical, ponderable. Sorcerers would be more inclined to discuss the nature of magic, its sources, etc, rather than dissect it for its rules like Wizards would. Great points through and through. I understand you analogy and it goes a long way toward creating a reason for Sorcery to exist in Mystara. And that is, that sorcery has always existed in Mystara, and that it has become shunned now that the "science" of wizardry is available. Now anyone with the proper training can become a wizard, whereas in the old days only those born with the gift could become sorcerers. Because of modern conceit sorcery has been all but forgotten in the civilized nations of the Known World, but it presence can still be found in less civilized areas. Schools of Sorcery make perfect sense when you factor in that anyone with enough charisma can pick up a level or more in the sorcerer class. Without some sort of formal training how does that 2nd level paladin multiclassing over to sorcery exactly learn how to cast those shiny new spells lurking in the depths of his subconscious? I certainly wouldn't want to be around as he attempts to muddle his way through the process learning on his own.... Bob ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 8 Sep 2006 to 9 Sep 2006 (#2006-151) **************************************************************