Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 24 Oct 2006 to 25 Oct 2006 (#2006-172) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 26/10/2006, 18:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 7 messages totalling 397 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Problem Player? (7) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 09:38:12 -0300 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: Problem Player? I tend to stay away from player-character assassination unless it's part of the storyline. If the character in question is getting on the bad side of too many people then bounty hunters should start coming after her. After that real assassins. Kill her family. Boil her pet rabbit. Turn her friends, family, allies against her. Have kings and guild leaders publicly denounce her. But it has to be a result of the character's in-game actions. If they think that they can make the game more interesting let it get more interesting logically. It's a reality test for your world. Let the whole group learn though. The other characters are associated with the power gamer. Also, I'd never punish the player in game by balancing their power levels with poisons. And I wouldn't fudge dice rolls to make them think about their imminent demise. It just makes all the players worry when the DM might tire of the mortals. Also, if you say they have WMD then prove they have WMD... er, I mean, let them see the dice rolls even if you catch them fudging their own dice rolls. Please note, I didn't say anything about the fire bombing. I would have allowed it provided the character could avoid the arrows from below. Zombies however can be funny unless they're chewing your arm off and my example meant in the spirit of Nodwick and Order of the Stick. And Monty Python. Now, if the player group as a whole can't take a LITTLE humour, I'd disolve the game after a few more sessions and say that _I_ wasn't having any fun. Then I'd tell the "good" players to come back. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 15:49:30 +0300 From: Ville V Lahde Subject: Re: Problem Player? Well, this goes a bit off topic, but bear with me. Or delete :) There surely are disruptive roleplayers, in other words bad =20 roleplayers, as there are bad game masters. But this is said only in =20 the sense of everyday psychology: people who lack consideration of =20 others, who are incapable of looking at themselves critically etc. =20 Gaming is a social situation and selfish or one-track-mind people =20 aren't usually good at that. I don't of course know the person in question, but if she has the =20 nerve to say to the GM that he shouldn't worry about storylines and =20 such - she'll provide them - then she is simply rude and sounds very =20 disruptive of other people's game. You cannot have a rpg on your own. But this everyday psychology should be distinguished from styles of =20 play and attitudes to gaming. In that dimension good and bad gaming =20 are much harder to distinguish, as there really are differing styles =20 and attitudes - essentially people are playing different kinds of =20 game. The only possible criterion of "bad gaming" in this sense is the =20 unwillingness or inability to shift from one's position, to think that =20 it is the "natural" way of gaming. There's been a lot of hot air in rpg zines over the years about the =20 best or the most mature (or whatever) way of gaming, which has spawned =20 a lot of categories of "gaming archetypes" and such. The trouble is =20 that most of them are way too simplistic and usually biased to one =20 style of gaming. A roleplayer can have very different attitudes at the same time to =20 different aspects of the game. Regarding the PCs personality she can =20 favour immersion to its motivations and background. Regarding the game =20 world however she might favour entertaining storylines and dramatic =20 arcs instead of simulation of the sense of "reality" (detailed =20 societies and NPCs with story-independent lives etc.) But when it =20 comes to "challenges" (combat, puzzles etc.) she might be more =20 tactically inclined, looking for the best way to "win" the challenge, =20 even though it might not always fit the above mentioned psychological =20 profile of the character. Another player may have a very different set of attitudes: Instead of =20 going inside the head of the PC he may look at it like a director of a =20 movie, preferring interesting situations and developments instead of =20 character plausibility. But when it comes to the game world he might =20 be very interested in the sense of reality, for example because he =20 prefers unpredictable stories and contingencies instead of drama arcs =20 that follow the tradition. He likes the game world to respond to the =20 PCs actions as a real world would. In tactical situations he may =20 demand that PC knowledge of the situation is kept very distinct from =20 player knowledge, that for example battles are played out as they =20 would happen in "reality". Now, the first one might say to the second one: "Your character =20 wouldn't act like that, it's not plausible to his personality." In her =20 own game style that is true, but it's not relevant to the way the =20 second player sees his PC. For him it is not an alternate ego: he is =20 writing a story. Etc etc... Thus labels like "powegamer" are often misnomers. In my older group I =20 have one player who definitely qualifies as a powergamer in some =20 respects, but in other areas of the game he enjoys immersing in the =20 life of the PC. In my other group I have a player who vocally =20 pronounces that he wants to play the character "coherently", always =20 acting according to the personality he has developed. But in crisis =20 situations he mostly tends to go into "powergaming" and safeguarding =20 the character from harm. I'm convinced that understanding the different styles of play =20 regarding different elements of the game helps avoid conflicts and =20 makes the game richer for everyone. This is not easy. Some players =20 still tend to entrench into their own positions and always regard =20 their own way of looking at the PC for example to be the proper form =20 of role playing - and others as powergaming, munching, storytelling, =20 whatever... Unwillingness to compromise is a recipe for bad gaming. Compromise doesn't have to mean uniformity. It means the gaming group =20 understand each other's motivations and makes room for them. And this is the most important thing for the GM. Game masters can =20 become just as stuck in a rut as players, they can see their way of =20 doing things as "natural". I sincerely believe that the atmosphere of =20 the game should be moulded to fit the preferences of the group, =20 players and GM alike. From time to time conflicts may rise - hell, gaming is a skill to be =20 learned like any other. I remember one session when things got really =20 muddled over a long argument over going into an ancient tomb. - One player wished the PCs to have logical individual reasons for it. - One player focused on the reasons why the group would do it, the =20 logic of the whole situation. - One player was frustruated because he just wanted to get going, to =20 get to live interesting times. - One player wanted to explore the fundamental moral reasons for =20 embarking on the mission Essentially, everyone was talking in a different language. As people =20 didn't explicate what they were looking for - these were their =20 accustomed ways of perceiving roleplaying - it took some time to =20 disentangle the situation in- and off-game. (Okay, this is a group =20 with quite few of volatile persons, otherwise things wouldn't have =20 gone that far.) Later on we dissected our attitudes to the game at our =20 mailing list - we discussed what each one wanted out of the game, of =20 the story, of the PCs, of the gaming world etc. After that things have =20 run much more smoothly. The players accomodated each other a lot more, =20 and as a GM I had to learn to give each player resources so that they =20 might find basis for their own motications. But: as I said in the beginning, there truly is such thing as a bad =20 player or a bad GM. There might be situations in which a player must =20 leave the group or the GM must be changed. All people just don't fit =20 together. But psychological and social conflicts of the group should =20 not be confused with differing yet legitimate ways of gaming. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 11:06:58 -0300 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: Problem Player? Wow. Where can I get players like that, Ville? On 25/10/06, Ville V Lahde wrote: > From time to time conflicts may rise - hell, gaming is a skill to be > learned like any other. I remember one session when things got really > muddled over a long argument over going into an ancient tomb. > - One player wished the PCs to have logical individual reasons for it. > - One player focused on the reasons why the group would do it, the > logic of the whole situation. > - One player was frustruated because he just wanted to get going, to > get to live interesting times. > - One player wanted to explore the fundamental moral reasons for > embarking on the mission ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 11:35:02 -0400 From: Joe Mason Subject: Re: Problem Player? Steven Carter wrote: > Also, I'd never punish the player in game by balancing their power > levels with poisons. And I wouldn't fudge dice rolls to make them > think about their imminent demise. It just makes all the players > worry when the DM might tire of the mortals. Also, if you say they > have WMD then prove they have WMD... er, I mean, let them see the dice > rolls even if you catch them fudging their own dice rolls. This is entirely a difference in play styles - for D&D, I always play with hidden dice for the DM. Otherwise a series of low rolls gets too boring, or a series of high rolls means the players accidentally die at an undramatic moment. When I'm playing a system that has defined mechanics, like 7th Sea with its drama dice, then I roll in the open. I don't see poison as punishing a character unless it's overused. I mentioned it because one of the best games I ever had was when my character got poisoned (actually, it was a weakening spell) and had to search for the antidote while getting steadily weaker. Waltzing through every obstacle is no fun - fun is facing impossible odds, being battered and beaten and close to death, and pulling through with a heroic effort. Dramatically. Poison, festering wounds that won't heal, etc. are just different types of challenge instead of always using more and stronger monsters. (And you can only do each of these once in a while if you want to keep the game fresh.) Joe ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 12:35:32 -0300 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: Problem Player? Another in-game way to deal with the player-character is use their very success against her. It's not just enemies she's annoyed who will want her dead. With the player's smart way of innovating (which I do admire in a way) it's entirely possible the character will kill all the enemies. What about people who go after her because they want to make a name for themselves by defeating her? Some 14-15 year old kid challenges her to a duel. She kills the kid out of hand. Instant infamy. How about a local warrior who, until she showed up, was king of the hill? Do you suppose a person like Baron Black Eagle would suffer her to survive in his domain? Nope. How about fight promoters? Drug her, abduct her and sell her into slavery in the gladiatorial ring. Lots of money to be had in slavery. (And if that last paragraph doesn't get my email addy and this list on someone's naughty list I don't know what will. Damn phone cops.) But show them the dice rolls. On 24/10/06, Joe Kelly wrote: > I found my player's definition. He's a hare. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 19:03:09 +0300 From: Ville V Lahde Subject: Re: Problem Player? Steven Carter wrote: > Wow. Where can I get players like that, Ville? Well, find a nice group of friends who are all already rpg veterans, =20 play with them for 12+ years nearly weekly, spend a lot of time with =20 them outside the rpg scene and learn to know and love them - and =20 tolerate each other's quirks. Also it helps if one of them is one of =20 the coolest GMs in the field. He GM'd ten years straight for us in =20 various worlds and taught us all a lot. Joe Mason wrote: > This is entirely a difference in play styles - for D&D, I always play > with hidden dice for the DM. Otherwise a series of low rolls gets too > boring, or a series of high rolls means the players accidentally die at > an undramatic moment. When I'm playing a system that has defined > mechanics, like 7th Sea with its drama dice, then I roll in the open. Yup, I agree. One of the things that is important here is whether the =20 player group sees the campaign as a traditional "story" with dramatic =20 arcs, key moments etc., or whether the campaign takes place in a world =20 whose "laws" they can learn to know and trust on. (A lot to do with =20 how much or little the gaming system is supposed to reflect the actual =20 game world and its workings.) I've GM'd in both styles. If I want our group to make a story that =20 builds dramatic moments like in the traditional style, I play the dice =20 hidden and fudge when necessary or when it seems cool. If we want to go more on the latter direction and create a "real" =20 world, I fudge little or not at all, and sometimes I roll the dice =20 openly. That can work as a powerful dramatic device. With a =20 transparent game system and open rolls the players know that death is =20 always lurking around the corner. Especially in important combats I =20 often roll a potentially lethal roll openly. I favour the latter approach, but the former can lead to good games =20 also. The main reason is that I like a story to develop through =20 cooperation and contingency, with both the player and the gaming =20 system/dice creating surprises for me. A seemingly meaningless death =20 of a PC can in retrospect become dramatically important. I once had a =20 merchant who died of an arrow to the neck in a useless battle with a =20 few goblins. The merchant has opposed attacking the goblins and was =20 the only casualty. Years later the PCs would remember his fate as a =20 symbol of rash decisions. Ville Ville ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 11:10:27 -0700 From: Joe Kelly Subject: Re: Problem Player? Well, I've decided NOT to kill the character, but he is going to learn how = helpless he really is. His character is a 3rd level assassin. The Drow all = 300 of them range from level 15-20. The character is going to be visited = by Shadow Jack a 21st level assassin. Jack will envelop her in his cape = while she sleeps and drop her unceromiously at the foot of the Drow = leaders. They are going to execute one of her former employers. The group = also buy potions from a herbal shop, that will be destroyed and the = owner's killed. They also use a ship operated by a pirate captain named = Gith. That will be next unless the party leave the city. It will be up to = the character. And if the player is still arrogant enough not to take crap = from the drow either the Half Demon Drow, or the Vampire Sorcerer will do = away with her. I've repeatedly told the party not to openly mess with the = Drow. So much for that warning. I think the message will get across this = time.=20 JK Wolf Joe Kelly Office Services Clerk DAVIS & COMPANY LLP Suite 2800, Park Place 666 Burrard Street, Vancouver, B.C. V6C 2Z7 Phone 604.643.6365 This e-mail and any attachment(s) are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please notify me immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and do not copy, use or disclose it. 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