Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 25 Oct 2006 to 26 Oct 2006 (#2006-173) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 27/10/2006, 18:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 9 messages totalling 499 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Open dice rolls (was: Problem Player?) (9) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 08:54:51 +0200 From: Sverre Midthjell Subject: Open dice rolls (was: Problem Player?) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060306050904010808050401 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steven Carter wrote: > But show them the dice rolls. > > I guess things must be different on the other side of the pond than what we do over here (I'm in Norway). I can't remember any GM I've ever played with (that's more than a few but all of them in Norway) that ever played with open dice (yes, that includes 7th sea, since that was mentioned). Why would a GM want to do that? To me, it sounds like just taking some of the mystery out of the game, potentially turning more focus to the system than to roleplay... - Sverre ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. --------------060306050904010808050401 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; name="sverrebu.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="sverrebu.vcf" begin:vcard fn:Sverre Midthjell n:Midthjell;Sverre org:NTNU adr;dom:;;Studenttinget NTNU;7491 Trondheim email;internet:sverrebu@stud.ntnu.no title:Styremedlem tel;work:73551135 tel;cell:90830248 x-mozilla-html:FALSE version:2.1 end:vcard --------------060306050904010808050401-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:49:10 +0300 From: Ville V Lahde Subject: Re: Open dice rolls (was: Problem Player?) Well, I'm on this side of the pond, although there is that small =20 puddle in between Finland and Norway... Open dice don't necessarily remove mystery from the game. Mystery can =20 reside in the story itself. Depending on the campaign and the GM, the =20 story can be a bit of a mystery for him/her too. I'll try to reiterate what I said in an earlier post. Playing with =20 open dice can sometimes heighten the feel that the game system is a =20 reliable agent in play, a reflection of the game world's laws. The =20 longer the players spend time with the PCs the better they can learn =20 that world. The players can trust that their actions follow some logic =20 that is not dependent on the GMs whims. For the GM this means that the game world/game system becomes another =20 agent to be reckoned with. Stories can no longer be devised beforehand =20 to follow some traditional dramatic arc etc. Contingency acts in the =20 play. Note that open dice is not of course a requirement for this trust. But =20 sometimes taking the dice in the open can heighten the sense of =20 in-game reality and not focus on the game system itself. That depends =20 on the style of play. But as I said earlier, sometimes hidden dice and the GM freedom to =20 "decide fate" is just as interesting. (Well, I love Paranoia...) Such =20 GM technique allows much more preplanning of the storylines - linear =20 or branching. Yet one question is whether the GM allows narrative power to the players. Ville ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 08:20:29 -0300 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: Open dice rolls (was: Problem Player?) Perhaps I should have been more clear. In the case of the planned, purposeful death of a character, specifically the character of a problem player, the dice have to be open otherwise you wil be accused of "cheating". Problem players I have had are usually the kind that use their character sheet as a score pad. Fudged dicing for the sake of "story" isn't part of their idea of role play. Especially if they are already of the opinion that the GM shouldn't even bother with story or plot. However, as Ville mentioned, open dice are sometimes useful to heighten certain feelings in-game. For instance my Robotech games (heavily modified by Twilight 2000) always used open rolls for combat situations. The point being everyone knew death was one unlucky moment away. For social situations, dice were hidden. On 26/10/06, Ville V Lahde wrote: > Well, I'm on this side of the pond, although there is that small > puddle in between Finland and Norway... > > Open dice don't necessarily remove mystery from the game. Mystery can > reside in the story itself. Depending on the campaign and the GM, the > story can be a bit of a mystery for him/her too. > > I'll try to reiterate what I said in an earlier post. Playing with > open dice can sometimes heighten the feel that the game system is a > reliable agent in play, a reflection of the game world's laws. The > longer the players spend time with the PCs the better they can learn > that world. The players can trust that their actions follow some logic > that is not dependent on the GMs whims. > > For the GM this means that the game world/game system becomes another > agent to be reckoned with. Stories can no longer be devised beforehand > to follow some traditional dramatic arc etc. Contingency acts in the > play. > > Note that open dice is not of course a requirement for this trust. But > sometimes taking the dice in the open can heighten the sense of > in-game reality and not focus on the game system itself. That depends > on the style of play. > > But as I said earlier, sometimes hidden dice and the GM freedom to > "decide fate" is just as interesting. (Well, I love Paranoia...) Such > GM technique allows much more preplanning of the storylines - linear > or branching. > > Yet one question is whether the GM allows narrative power to the players. > > Ville > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 12:18:40 -0400 From: Sheldon Morris Subject: Re: Open dice rolls (was: Problem Player?) When I first started playing D&D (mid '80's) I used to roll "behind the screen". It was just myself DMing with 1 or 2 friends. The players usually controlled 2 PCs and I often ran characters to give the party at least 4-5 in total. I naturally rolled any rolls for my characters in the open, but I didn't like the fact that I could fudge rolls as DM even though I did at times. Although it was fun it just wasn't 'spooky' enough when it came to the mortality factor. We learned the game together and had similar tastes in game-play - strict seperation of player and character, no meta-gaming (long before we ever heard what it was called :) ). The fear that open rolls gave us was part of the fun, just like the mystery of the storyline. Been doing it this way ever since. However, now that we play (OD&Dified) 3.5, there are a few rolls that I hide. They are ones in which the players might be influenced by a low roll's result. These include some skill checks like spot, search, listen, appraise, ect. and can be "modified by plot purpose" if applicable. Rolling in the open does have up, and down, sides to it but we feel the up sides out-wieght the downs. The main thing it does for the players is that it gives them a sense of reliance on the party members because there is a real threat to their lives. (All IMHO of course) --------------------------------- All new Yahoo! Mail --------------------------------- Get news delivered. Enjoy RSS feeds right on your Mail page. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 12:32:55 -0500 From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Open dice rolls (was: Problem Player?) To me the rolls, as DM, are fine so long as the story is not wrecked by a die roll. Whenever that happened, I ignored the die roll and went with what felt right. I think it is horrible to have a character you have invested years in wrecked by a die roll. That is a straw death. If a character goes out in a manner appropriate to the story, that is fine; or if they are stupid, but to have the game ruled by die rolls is silly. This is the difference between having a referree and having a computer mediating the game. George P.S. I have been playing since 1976. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sheldon Morris" To: Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Open dice rolls (was: Problem Player?) > When I first started playing D&D (mid '80's) I used to roll "behind the screen". It was just myself DMing with 1 or 2 friends. The players usually controlled 2 PCs and I often ran characters to give the party at least 4-5 in total. I naturally rolled any rolls for my characters in the open, but I didn't like the fact that I could fudge rolls as DM even though I did at times. > > Although it was fun it just wasn't 'spooky' enough when it came to the mortality factor. We learned the game together and had similar tastes in game-play - strict seperation of player and character, no meta-gaming (long before we ever heard what it was called :) ). > > The fear that open rolls gave us was part of the fun, just like the mystery of the storyline. Been doing it this way ever since. > > However, now that we play (OD&Dified) 3.5, there are a few rolls that I hide. They are ones in which the players might be influenced by a low roll's result. These include some skill checks like spot, search, listen, appraise, ect. and can be "modified by plot purpose" if applicable. > > Rolling in the open does have up, and down, sides to it but we feel the up sides out-wieght the downs. The main thing it does for the players is that it gives them a sense of reliance on the party members because there is a real threat to their lives. (All IMHO of course) > > > --------------------------------- > All new Yahoo! Mail > --------------------------------- > Get news delivered. Enjoy RSS feeds right on your Mail page. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 12:44:06 -0500 From: Eric Anondson Subject: Re: Open dice rolls (was: Problem Player?) I used to roll behind a screen for everything as well. After I started playing in the RPGA's Living Greyhawk campaign I began rolling dice in the open having seen most judges there make their rolls in the open. Well, not everything. I roll things like attack rolls, critical confirmations, grapple checks, saving throws, damage dice all in the open. If it makes sense to keep it hidden I keep it hidden. If it is something where the success OR failure is immediately knowable by the PC I almost always opt to put it in the open. Its more exciting for one. I guess another is that one thing that has troubled me by D&D over the past years is that I have gamed with DMs who hide so much that it generally feels like while the PCs are forced to deal with the vicissitudes of chance, the DM is playing a game of make believe. I want to know that the DM is playing the game and isn't just some storyteller opting for fiat. Rolling in the open things that PCs immediately know successes and failures helps inject that into the game. Regards, Eric Anondson ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 16:15:36 -0700 From: Anthony Edwards Subject: Re: Open dice rolls (was: Problem Player?) There are pros and cons to rolling dice secretly or in the open; but I tend to always roll dice in the open ONLY during combat. Combat is the blood and bones of a D&D characters life and pretty much the only place where the player feels his great deal of time invested is at risk. To help players feel "safe" and even survive, I give my players re-rolls. Very simply, they get one re-roll per level they obtain; and that re-roll can cause ANY dice to be re-rolled, including the ones I hide...which results in a previously hidden die roll being made in the open. I have even had a player, when his party foolishly tried to take on a dragon, ask me to re-roll the dragon's hit dice before the battle started. I thought it was a clever use and did it in front of them...made them feel alot better even though it didn't make a great deal of difference in the Hit Points (I even came up with the idea that the God's smiled on the party that day being the reason for the suddenly somewhat less hearty dragon). The party still lost half of its members (with dice rolls included); but they got them back after Raise Dead spells at a couple of different temples...but it was a much better result than the party being wiped out completely because the players made a mistake. So, it all just depends on the DM; but it should be a group decision before a game starts of whether or not the DM should hide or reveal dice rolls. Anthony Edwards __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 20:40:11 -0400 From: Sheldon Morris Subject: Re: Open dice rolls (was: Problem Player?) True, but one thing I've also learned is that a story is not usually wrecked, rather it is just diverted into a "hither-to unknown direction" :). Also, by the time a player has put alot of years into a character they generally have access to raising. Our group's answer to your concern are the "Karma Kards" & "Doom Deference Cards". The "Karma Kard" allows a player to re-roll any roll that was done for any character under that player's control, and the "Doom Deference Card" forces the DM to re-roll any roll that he had done that affects one of their characters. They can only have a maximum of one of each type, and use charisma checks (at DC 15 usually) at the start of each session to see if any player receives one. But, as you say, it is the referee's job to ensure that things are done as the situation warrants and therefore circumstancial modifiers are your friend. Of course, the two dice rolling options are merely just two variations of gaming style. George Hrabovsky wrote: To me the rolls, as DM, are fine so long as the story is not wrecked by a die roll. Whenever that happened, I ignored the die roll and went with what felt right. I think it is horrible to have a character you have invested years in wrecked by a die roll. That is a straw death. If a character goes out in a manner appropriate to the story, that is fine; or if they are stupid, but to have the game ruled by die rolls is silly. This is the difference between having a referree and having a computer mediating the game. George P.S. I have been playing since 1976. --------------------------------- Now you can have a huge leap forward in email: get the new Yahoo! Mail. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 09:12:48 +0800 From: Jason Murphy Subject: Re: Open dice rolls (was: Problem Player?) I think it is fantastic to have some emotional investment in a character. But that really shouldnt be an overriding factor. In fantasy heros die. And the death of a valuable party companion can be used to provide fantastic dramatic tension in a story. My own character in our campaign died recently. And while the raising spells are available, the GM has, quite reasonably, made the location of 5000gp worth of diamonds EXTREMELY difficult. Usually i wouldnt bother with raising a character. However in this case my character had a driving motivation of retribution. Ultimately the party got him reincarnated from an elf to a human. I have played this situation in a way that his experience turns an already slightly dark character even further consumed and cold hearted. It is certainly making the developing story interesting for everyone involved. So in short, dont overly fear the dice. The ever present threat of extinction makes things more interesting, and if the worse happens, well, waddya know your story will have a twist that you really werent expecting. On 10/27/06, Sheldon Morris wrote: > > True, but one thing I've also learned is that a story is not usually > wrecked, rather it is just diverted into a "hither-to unknown direction" :). > Also, by the time a player has put alot of years into a character they > generally have access to raising. > > Our group's answer to your concern are the "Karma Kards" & "Doom Deference > Cards". The "Karma Kard" allows a player to re-roll any roll that was done > for any character under that player's control, and the "Doom Deference Card" > forces the DM to re-roll any roll that he had done that affects one of their > characters. They can only have a maximum of one of each type, and use > charisma checks (at DC 15 usually) at the start of each session to see if > any player receives one. > > But, as you say, it is the referee's job to ensure that things are done as > the situation warrants and therefore circumstancial modifiers are your > friend. Of course, the two dice rolling options are merely just two > variations of gaming style. > > George Hrabovsky wrote: To me the rolls, as DM, > are fine so long as the story is not wrecked by a > die roll. Whenever that happened, I ignored the die roll and went with > what > felt right. > > I think it is horrible to have a character you have invested years in > wrecked by a die roll. That is a straw death. If a character goes out in a > manner appropriate to the story, that is fine; or if they are stupid, but > to > have the game ruled by die rolls is silly. This is the difference between > having a referree and having a computer mediating the game. > > George > > P.S. I have been playing since 1976. > > > > --------------------------------- > Now you can have a huge leap forward in email: get the new Yahoo! Mail. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 25 Oct 2006 to 26 Oct 2006 (#2006-173) ****************************************************************