Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 26 Oct 2006 to 27 Oct 2006 (#2006-174) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 28/10/2006, 18:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 3 messages totalling 228 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. MYSTARA-L Digest - 25 Oct 2006 to 26 Oct 2006 (#2006-173) 2. Open dice rolls (was: Problem Player?) (2) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 12:06:39 +0300 From: Ville V Lahde Subject: Re: MYSTARA-L Digest - 25 Oct 2006 to 26 Oct 2006 (#2006-173) I don't of course play purely open or hidden game. Like Sheldon =20 mentioned, often some rolls that might influence the players (and the =20 PCs actions) in a wrong way are best kept hidden. But this is up to the players also. =20 Some players are more strict with the player-character-barrier in this =20 particular case, others are more likely to tweak the PC actions due to player knowledge= . For example in my present caravan campaign I've been able to relax =20 secrecy in these cases, as the group is often willing to se the PCs =20 get in trouble due to PC skill failures etc. Also I've devised =20 techniques like perception rolls done before a challenge arises: the =20 players don't know if the rolls were relevant and what they referred to. George Hrabovsky wrote: > to have the game ruled by die rolls is silly. This is the difference betwe= en > having a referee and having a computer mediating the game. Yup, but this is hardly what people were talking about. Of course =20 there can be a good balance between the rules and refereeing. But even =20 more, as Sheldon pointed out, taking contingency seriously forces GMs =20 to adapt to new kinds of stories. It's about adaptation and ability to =20 react, not surrendering to the rules. But like Anthony said, of course the group should have a consensus =20 about the spirit of the game. If the players prefer for example that =20 the PCs have a meaningful life and possibly meaningful deaths, that =20 the campaign has an epic spirit for example, the GM should =20 accommodate. And of course the PCs should know and give room to the =20 GMs style too. Ville ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 04:26:46 -0500 From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Open dice rolls (was: Problem Player?) The everpresent threat of being killed at random is silly. Straw deaths are no fun. The goal is to have fun. I have had lots of characters experience totally reasonable deaths that I have no problem with. I object to situations where my character is doing nothing to put himself at risk when he is suddenly killed by a die-roll. I refuse to inflict that situation on my players. George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Murphy" To: Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 8:12 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Open dice rolls (was: Problem Player?) > I think it is fantastic to have some emotional investment in a character. > But that really shouldnt be an overriding factor. In fantasy heros die. And > the death of a valuable party companion can be used to provide fantastic > dramatic tension in a story. > My own character in our campaign died recently. And while the raising spells > are available, the GM has, quite reasonably, made the location of 5000gp > worth of diamonds EXTREMELY difficult. > Usually i wouldnt bother with raising a character. However in this case my > character had a driving motivation of retribution. Ultimately the party got > him reincarnated from an elf to a human. I have played this situation in a > way that his experience turns an already slightly dark character even > further consumed and cold hearted. It is certainly making the developing > story interesting for everyone involved. > So in short, dont overly fear the dice. The ever present threat of > extinction makes things more interesting, and if the worse happens, well, > waddya know your story will have a twist that you really werent expecting. > > > On 10/27/06, Sheldon Morris wrote: >> >> True, but one thing I've also learned is that a story is not usually >> wrecked, rather it is just diverted into a "hither-to unknown direction" :). >> Also, by the time a player has put alot of years into a character they >> generally have access to raising. >> >> Our group's answer to your concern are the "Karma Kards" & "Doom Deference >> Cards". The "Karma Kard" allows a player to re-roll any roll that was done >> for any character under that player's control, and the "Doom Deference Card" >> forces the DM to re-roll any roll that he had done that affects one of their >> characters. They can only have a maximum of one of each type, and use >> charisma checks (at DC 15 usually) at the start of each session to see if >> any player receives one. >> >> But, as you say, it is the referee's job to ensure that things are done as >> the situation warrants and therefore circumstancial modifiers are your >> friend. Of course, the two dice rolling options are merely just two >> variations of gaming style. >> >> George Hrabovsky wrote: To me the rolls, as DM, >> are fine so long as the story is not wrecked by a >> die roll. Whenever that happened, I ignored the die roll and went with >> what >> felt right. >> >> I think it is horrible to have a character you have invested years in >> wrecked by a die roll. That is a straw death. If a character goes out in a >> manner appropriate to the story, that is fine; or if they are stupid, but >> to >> have the game ruled by die rolls is silly. This is the difference between >> having a referree and having a computer mediating the game. >> >> George >> >> P.S. I have been playing since 1976. >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Now you can have a huge leap forward in email: get the new Yahoo! Mail. >> >> ******************************************************************** >> The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >> The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com >> To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >> with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. >> > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 16:45:18 +0300 From: Ville V Lahde Subject: Re: Open dice rolls (was: Problem Player?) George Hrabovsky wrote: "The everpresent threat of being killed at random is silly. Straw deaths are no fun. The goal is to have fun. I have had lots of characters experience totally reasonable deaths that I have no problem with. I object to situations where my character is doing nothing to put himself at risk when he is suddenly killed by a die-roll. I refuse to inflict that situation on my players." As a personal statement of taste and preferred style of play that is =20 of course legitimate. I have no quarrel with that. In some campaigns, =20 with some gaming systems that support certain forms of play best, and =20 in some game worlds I would prefer that also. In our longest-standing =20 OD&D campaign we developed an epic style story, and most of the =20 characters represent over a decade of play. Sure, I wouldn't want to =20 make their deaths meaningless. (Of course the OD&D system helps here.) But the argument doesn't work as a universal: silly, no fun. There =20 simply are many ways of having an =20 interesting/educating/challenging/fun roleplaying experience. In my other rpg group our longest campaigns have been in a world where =20 the closeness of death was a defining factor - and we all agreed to =20 that. One of my characters died after falling of a horse and slipping =20 into shock because he fell on an already wounded leg. It came down to =20 an unhappy series of dice rolls. It took days and days for him to die =20 (infection and fever), during which he managed to say goodbyes to his =20 friends. And one of the PCs had the unfortunate burden of taking the =20 news to my PCs father, his old adventuring companion (and actually an =20 older PC of mine!) Sure I felt bad after that session, sure I cursed the dice to the =20 lowest of abysses. But together our group "wrote" that accidental and =20 mundane death into an important event. The fun, the reason and the =20 meaning were not intrinsic to an already existing story. They were =20 crafted afterwards. I value that experience. Just as much I value the =20 fact that I had years earlier managed to retire the above mentioned =20 father-PC to a good family life, after facing the ever present threat =20 of "meaningless" death in countless travels. It's not everybody's cup of tea. But it doesn't make it silly and not fun. Ville ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 26 Oct 2006 to 27 Oct 2006 (#2006-174) ****************************************************************