Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 17 Dec 2006 to 18 Dec 2006 (#2006-190) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 19/12/2006, 19:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 10 messages totalling 360 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Flaems, Cypri and True Alphatians (10) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 09:58:40 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Flaems, Cypri and True Alphatians On 17/12/06, Steven Carter wrote: > Except (1) Ochaleans mostly eschew (PWA1014 I think) or are otherwise > incapable of (DotE) arcane magic and (2) don't have any cultural resemblance > to Alphatians (DotE). Of course, but these are not really problems per se: Ochaleans are incapable of magic, because they descend from magic-impaired Alphatians who migrated from Alphatia to get away from the magic-favoring Alphatian establishment. After Landfall, the Alphatian rate of magic using ability dropped drastically -- from near 100% in Old Alphatia (possibly due to the high-Energy nature of that world) to 20% in modern Alphatia! Therefore, many Alphatians who were now discriminated because of their inability to use magic (and had probably not yet discovered clerical magic) left for better pastures. As to the completely different cultures, you'll note that the Flaems as well have a completely different culture (M-Netherlands) with respect to standard Alphatians (non-descript fantasy culture). Ambur Alphatians have yet another language (M-Babylonian/Assyrian), yet they are common Alphatians living in the Alphatian mainland. If you consider that the Alphatians in Old Alphatia occupied (at least) an entire planet, it should not come as a surprise that they have a wide range of different cultures/languages. Moreover, the Cypri were the most populous race in Old Alphatia, so it obvious that they would develop several (sub)cultures. Two millennia of isolation did the rest. GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 05:19:02 -0800 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Flaems, Cypri and True Alphatians Which path did the Flaems take to get to Mystara? Did they enter from the = gate in Irendi or Norwold? Are the Follwers of Fire from the same racial s= tock as the Flaems? There could be a distinction there as well. I imagine= the Flaems are more racially mixed, and probopbly always were (based on th= e Aplhatians dislike to them besides the fire loving). Perhaps there is mo= re to the down fall of Aplhatia than Alphaks claim of fire being the superi= or element; perhaps if he was Pure Alphatian, he would have had a better de= bate. Could he have been the first non-Pure Alphatian to take the throne? = That would be an interesting story in itself. I would also imagine the Fo= llowers of Fire in Irendi are more Genasi related, given their secrecy and = ties to Fire Elemental tourism. _________________________________________________________________ Search from any Web page with powerful protection. Get the FREE Windows Liv= e Toolbar Today! http://get.live.com/toolbar/overview= ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 09:32:05 -0400 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: Flaems, Cypri and True Alphatians Sorry, it was PWA 1010 page 66. "The population is of common Alphatian stock, copper-skinned and eastern of appearance. However, they are not much like the Alphatians in cluture. There are few maic-users in the population, and clerics are dominant." I take this to mean that they are not entirely incapabable of magic but most of those that might be capable eschew magic due to some cultural elements. Probably a lingering hatred from (1) Alphatian oppressors, (2) ogre magi (that was co-opted by the humans when they integrated with the lupin and rakasta (3) possible vestiges in history and myth from Taymora. Also, references to "the population" seem to be only about the humans. 125,000 humans. It's annoying. This should raise the sentient population considerably when rakasta and lupin are taken into account. I still doubt that human women are counted in this number even though they are supposedly given equal rights. We're quite familiar with the idea that laws are only laws for some. On 18/12/06, Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > > On 17/12/06, Steven Carter wrote: > > Except (1) Ochaleans mostly eschew (PWA1014 I think) or are otherwise > > incapable of (DotE) arcane magic and (2) don't have any cultural > resemblance > > to Alphatians (DotE). > > Of course, but these are not really problems per se: Ochaleans are > incapable of magic, because they descend from magic-impaired > Alphatians who migrated from Alphatia to get away from the > magic-favoring Alphatian establishment. > After Landfall, the Alphatian rate of magic using ability dropped > drastically -- from near 100% in Old Alphatia (possibly due to the > high-Energy nature of that world) to 20% in modern Alphatia! > Therefore, many Alphatians who were now discriminated because of their > inability to use magic (and had probably not yet discovered clerical > magic) left for better pastures. > > As to the completely different cultures, you'll note that the Flaems > as well have a completely different culture (M-Netherlands) with > respect to standard Alphatians (non-descript fantasy culture). > Ambur Alphatians have yet another language (M-Babylonian/Assyrian), > yet they are common Alphatians living in the Alphatian mainland. > If you consider that the Alphatians in Old Alphatia occupied (at > least) an entire planet, it should not come as a surprise that they > have a wide range of different cultures/languages. > Moreover, the Cypri were the most populous race in Old Alphatia, so it > obvious that they would develop several (sub)cultures. Two millennia > of isolation did the rest. > > GP > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 08:22:04 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Flaems, Cypri and True Alphatians Chris Cherrington wrote: >Which path did the Flaems take to get to Mystara? Did they enter from the gate in >Irendi or Norwold? Neither, seemingly. If you take the Dragonlord trilogy as canon, there is actually a gate in the Highlands/Braejr/Glantri that they used to arrive on Mystara from other planes. In fact, there is little to suggest that they traversed the Plane of Fire at all (save their name- Flaems). From what I recall, it is simply noted that they "wandered the planes"; which could mean anything. For all we know, they were forced to wander the elemental plane of Air. Again, the Dragonlord trilogy is the only real mention of where they might have been during their centuries long wanderings, AFAIK. >Are the Follwers of Fire from the same racial stock as the Flaems? There could be a >distinction there as well. I would imagine that all Flaemish are/were Followers of Fire, though the reverse need not necessarily be true. In fact, IIRC, the name "Flaemish" is a derivative of "Followers of Fire." >I imagine the Flaems are more racially mixed, and probopbly always were (based on >the Aplhatians dislike to them besides the fire loving). It doesn't seem to be the case, from the limited description of them we have. Again, I'd say that there may have been other racial elements included in the Followers of Fire, on Old Alphatia, but the current existing group of Flaems are seemingly all of one racial group. >Perhaps there is more to the down fall of Aplhatia than Alphaks claim of fire being >the superior element; perhaps if he was Pure Alphatian, he would have had a better >debate. Could he have been the first non-Pure Alphatian to take the throne? That >would be an interesting story in itself. An interesting theory. I wouldn't be surprised if there were some racial tensions that led to the FoF/FoA split. >I would also imagine the Followers of Fire in Irendi are more Genasi related, given >their secrecy and ties to Fire Elemental tourism. The Honor Islanders are seemingly not Flaems, and may not even be Followers of Fire (from Old Alphatia). In fact, their true origins are rather disputable. They are mentioned to be from an Alphatian subject race southeast of the Isle of Dawn, which can mean a lot of things. They could be the aboriginal Alatians (which would possibly indicate some Nithian/Thothian ancestry, and could tie to the Magian Fire-Worshippers/Rathanos), they could be Bellisarians, either Old Alphatian/Cypri or aboriginal (possibly Yanifey). In the former case, they could be descendants of the Followers of Fire, but not necessarily so. Also, aside from their location on the volcano/Plane of Fire gate, and their subsequent commerce with the inhabitants of the PoF, they don't seem to be particularly inclined to fire magics. The only NPC from there, Gherynid, actually undertook her studies in Fire Magic at the Great School of Magic in Glantri, oddly. From what I can tell, they seem to be just interested in magic, period. In any event, they don't seem to want to have anything to do with Alphatia *or* Glantri, from their description, so if they are Followers of Fire, they have apparently had a split of their own from the Flaemish at some unspecified point in the past (probably around the time of the sundering of Old Alphatia). ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 17:26:38 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Flaems, Cypri and True Alphatians On 18/12/06, Steven Carter wrote: > > I take this to mean that they are not entirely incapabable of magic but most > of those that might be capable eschew magic due to some cultural elements. > Probably a lingering hatred from (1) Alphatian oppressors, (2) ogre magi > (that was co-opted by the humans when they integrated with the lupin and > rakasta (3) possible vestiges in history and myth from Taymora. Indeed. Factor (1) would be the most effective, IMO, but (2) and perhaps also (3) would contribute as well. > Also, references to "the population" seem to be only about the humans. > 125,000 humans. It's annoying. This should raise the sentient population > considerably when rakasta and lupin are taken into account. 125,000 refers to Beitung plus the surrounding countryside: it's under the Beitung entry, which says: ``Beitung: Population 50,000 (City of Beitung) plus 75,000 (surrounding territory).'' I wouldn't take this to represent the whole of Ochalea -- it's almost a small continent! Based on a very rought check using Bruce Heard's demographic spreadsheet, I'd set the total population at around 680,000 units. GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 17:29:03 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Flaems, Cypri and True Alphatians On 18/12/06, Andrew Theisen wrote: > > The Honor Islanders are seemingly not Flaems, and may not even be Followers of Fire (from Old Alphatia). In fact, their true origins are rather disputable. They are mentioned to be from an Alphatian subject race southeast of the Isle of Dawn, which can mean a lot of things. IIRC, they are said to be a mix of Nithian and Alphatian wizards. GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 13:41:26 -0400 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: Flaems, Cypri and True Alphatians Is that spreadsheet available? On 18/12/06, Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > > On 18/12/06, Steven Carter wrote: > > Also, references to "the population" seem to be only about the humans. > > 125,000 humans. It's annoying. This should raise the > sentient population > > considerably when rakasta and lupin are taken into account. > > Based on a very rought check using Bruce Heard's demographic > spreadsheet, I'd set the total population at around 680,000 units. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 21:17:05 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Flaems, Cypri and True Alphatians On 18/12/06, Steven Carter wrote: > Is that spreadsheet available? Bruce's? Yes, of course, it's on the Vaults: http://www.pandius.com/eco_101.zip GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 15:21:15 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Flaems, Cypri and True Alphatians Giampaolo Agosta wrote: IIRC, they are said to be a mix of Nithian and Alphatian wizards. In the intro part of the Honor Island entry, it is said that it is speculated by outsiders that they may be of Nithian or Alphatian origins, but it is later clarified that they are in fact from an Alphatian subject nation southeast of the IoD, which is all the detail it gives. It is still vague enough that it can be interpreted many ways. That being said, I tend to agree with you that that is probably a likely origin. In fact, I'd say that they were Alphatian/Thothians who were displaced with the "beautification" of the Alatians, but the timeline doesn't quite fit. Haven't tried to connect them to the Alphatian/Nithian colonists of the Minrothad Isles in the timeline, but it would probably be a good place to start connecting the dots. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 00:52:14 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Flaems, Cypri and True Alphatians On 19/12/06, Andrew Theisen wrote: > > That being said, I tend to agree with you that that is probably a likely origin. In fact, I'd say that they were Alphatian/Thothians who were displaced with the "beautification" of the Alatians, but the timeline doesn't quite fit. > > Haven't tried to connect them to the Alphatian/Nithian colonists of the Minrothad Isles in the timeline, but it would probably be a good place to start connecting the dots. Indeed, probably better than the later colonization of the Alatians. GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 17 Dec 2006 to 18 Dec 2006 (#2006-190) ****************************************************************