Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 21 Mar 2006 to 22 Mar 2006 (#2006-56) From: MYSTARA-L automatic digest system Date: 23/03/2006, 19:00 To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 7 messages totalling 521 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Blackmoor Immortals (6) 2. Immortals active at the time of Blackmoor ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 09:26:11 +0100 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Blackmoor Immortals Gaimpaolo asked for a conversion table between Mystaran Immortals and Blackmoor deities. I'm still working on this, but here is what I've got so far: Odin - Odir Ordana - Ordana Ixion - Sollus Thanatos - Thanatos Protius - Hydros Faunus - Faunus Terra - Terra Ka - Tsartha (She is a female dragon godess though...) Korotiku - (Hersh and Phellia are possibilities. Hersh fits the trickster aspect, but Phellia fits the spider one. She is female though.) Hel - Hella Calitha - Mwajin (He is male though) Kagyar - Kadis Valerias - Tilla Verthandi - Yoosef? (Okay, not sure about this one, or what would fit here) Great Dragon - Innsellageth (The current great one is probably not that old, but it is mentioned that he was not the first Great Dragon...) Comments? Håvard --- Giampaolo Agosta skrev: > Havard Faanes ha scritto: > > >>The following Immortals were certainly around > during > >>the Blackmoorian >>age: Protius, Faunus, Terra, Ka, Korotiku, Hel, > >>Calitha, Kagyar, >>Valerias and Verthandi. Would it be possible > >>(easy/difficult) to find >>parallels in the Blackmoor books as well? > > > > Hey Giamaolo, > > sorry I forgot to answer this one. > > It's no problem at all. > > > Protius, Faunus and > > Hel also have obvious counterparts in Blackmoor. > Good. > > > I > > have a couple of candidates for Kagyar, though > I'll > > have to think about which dwarven patron would fit > the > > best. I'll see if I can find some for the others > as > > well. > > Though he doesn't need to have been one of the > original dwarven patrons, IIRC he took notice of the dwarves after the GRoF. > > > Thanks for providing me a list of which to look > for! > > :) > > You're welcome. Of course, if you can provide a > conversion table, then I'd be even more happy ;) > > Bye, > GP > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 09:45:40 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Blackmoor Immortals Havard Faanes ha scritto: > > Ka - Tsartha (She is a female dragon godess though...) Uhm, Ka is not a dragon, maybe she could be one of the draconic Immortals (an older Diamond?) > Korotiku - (Hersh and Phellia are possibilities. Hersh > fits the trickster aspect, but Phellia fits the spider > one. She is female though.) There's also Arachne Prime, the evil Aranea goddess. Korotiku doesn't always use his spider aspect -- e.g., as Saimpt Renard he appears as a Lupin. > Calitha - Mwajin (He is male though) That's more difficult. It doesn't seem to me that Calitha would appear as a male. > Great Dragon - Innsellageth (The current great one is > probably not that old, but it is mentioned that he was > not the first Great Dragon...) Well, the Great One is certainly quite old, since he belongs to an extinct draconic species that was the ancestor of the modern ones. Given the lifespan of dragons, this would likely be well before the Blackmoor era. Bye, GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 16:23:16 +0100 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Re: Blackmoor Immortals --- Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > Havard Faanes ha scritto: > > > Ka - Tsartha (She is a female dragon godess > though...) > > Uhm, Ka is not a dragon, maybe she could be one of > the draconic Immortals (an older Diamond?) I'm thinking Tsartha doesn't have to be a dragon, even if she is believed to be one, and is worshipped by dragons. The portfolio seems to fit well with Ka, hence the association. Another possibility is Yoosef, who is a deity of the earth and a healer (almost preserver). There are a few other dragon deities, so we should be able to find predecessors of Diamond, Pearl and Opal, though I'll have to recheck their descriptions to find out which ones fit which. It makes sense that these were the previous generation of Dragon Rulers, recreated by the Great One during the time of the Dragonlord Trilogy. > > Korotiku - (Hersh and Phellia are possibilities. > Hersh > > fits the trickster aspect, but Phellia fits the > spider > > one. She is female though.) > > There's also Arachne Prime, the evil Aranea goddess. > Korotiku doesn't always use his spider aspect -- > e.g., as Saimpt Renard he appears as a Lupin. I'd go with Hersh for Korotiku then. Phellia is IIRC a good deity, so she could not be Arachne Prime. Phellia could be Verthandi though; spinning threads seems like something a Norn would do. OTOH, certain writeups seems to suggest Verthandi is male. (Couldnt find Marco's writeup at the moment). > > Calitha - Mwajin (He is male though) > > That's more difficult. It doesn't seem to me that > Calitha would appear as a male. In that case I dont have any good suggestions for her at the moment. None of the elven deities seem to fit, though perhaps some of the human ones could be used... > > Great Dragon - Innsellageth (The current great one > is > > probably not that old, but it is mentioned that he > was > > not the first Great Dragon...) > > Well, the Great One is certainly quite old, since he > belongs to an extinct draconic species that was the ancestor of > the modern ones. > Given the lifespan of dragons, this would likely be > well before the Blackmoor era. Good point. He should definately be around at the time of Blackmoor then. Innsellageth is definately the one we should be using. A couple of others: Zugzul - Zugzul Khoronus - Khoronus (His description fits astonishingly with Mystara material, though DAB D20 has him ascend to Immortality 200 before the current DAB setting. I'm unsure about Asterius. Previous discussions have him still be a mortal, and perhaps achieve Immortality sometime after the DA-series. Cthulhudrew suggested the Well of Souls as the artifact he destroys in his quest for Immortality (gaining him the enimity of Thanatos). Anyone else we've missed so far? Two more issues: 1. What happens to the other deities mentioned in the Blackmoor supplements? Suggestion: They have either faded as a result of the GRoF, have left Mystara after this, or are still working in the shadows, though with a considerably reduced role (enough so that they would not be mentioned in WotI). I prefer this last option since that means they can still be used as patrons of minor cults, or perhaps even bigger cults in more remote parts of the world without directly influencing major Mystaran events/cultures at this time. 2. For Deities identified with Mystaran counterparts, what about discrepancies in their descriptions? suggestion: Here I'd leave much of it up to the needs of the individual DM. If you think the description in the DAB books is too cool to ignore, use it. If not, that description should be read as what people believe of that Immortal, not the actual truth. Sollus (Ixion), may not be the brother of Thanatos, but people believe that he is. Håvard ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 16:31:05 +0100 From: Havard Faanes Subject: Immortals active at the time of Blackmoor Looking at DM's Immortal thread, all of these immortals should probably be present around the time of Blackmoor: <> Håvard ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 17:13:51 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Blackmoor Immortals Havard Faanes ha scritto: > > I'm thinking Tsartha doesn't have to be a dragon, even > if she is believed to be one, and is worshipped by > dragons. The portfolio seems to fit well with Ka, > hence the association. Another possibility is Yoosef, > who is a deity of the earth and a healer (almost > preserver). That would fit Ka -- he has a focus on preserving, not on a specific race (in modern Mystara, he is patron of humans, tortles, and lizardkin). > There are a few other dragon deities, so we should be > able to find predecessors of Diamond, Pearl and Opal, > though I'll have to recheck their descriptions to find > out which ones fit which. It makes sense that these > were the previous generation of Dragon Rulers, > recreated by the Great One during the time of the > Dragonlord Trilogy. Yes, the dragon rulers were certainly around, though not the same individuals as the current rulers. > something a Norn would do. OTOH, certain writeups > seems to suggest Verthandi is male. (Couldnt find > Marco's writeup at the moment). Yes, Verthandi is portrayed as a male (IIRC, in the Master Set). > In that case I dont have any good suggestions for her > at the moment. None of the elven deities seem to fit, > though perhaps some of the human ones could be used... Maybe she's not known in the northern continent, only by the sea elves and in Evergrun/Grunland. > A couple of others: > Zugzul - Zugzul Easy one ;) > Khoronus - Khoronus (His description fits > astonishingly with Mystara material, though DAB D20 > has him ascend to Immortality 200 before the current > DAB setting. Then I suppose we should keep him in the Blackmoorian version. 200 years don't change much from the modern Mystaran point of view. > I'm unsure about Asterius. Previous discussions have > him still be a mortal, and perhaps achieve Immortality > sometime after the DA-series. Cthulhudrew suggested > the Well of Souls as the artifact he destroys in his > quest for Immortality (gaining him the enimity of > Thanatos). Entirely possible. > 1. What happens to the other deities mentioned in the > Blackmoor supplements? > > Suggestion: They have either faded as a result of the > GRoF, have left Mystara after this, or are still > working in the shadows, though with a considerably > reduced role (enough so that they would not be > mentioned in WotI). I prefer this last option since > that means they can still be used as patrons of minor > cults, or perhaps even bigger cults in more remote > parts of the world without directly influencing major > Mystaran events/cultures at this time. I think a mix should be used. Those Immortals whose people were entirely destroyed in the GRoF probably died. Others may be weakened. Few would have left Mystara, unless they were reclusive powers to begin with. > 2. For Deities identified with Mystaran counterparts, > what about discrepancies in their descriptions? > > suggestion: Here I'd leave much of it up to the needs > of the individual DM. If you think the description in > the DAB books is too cool to ignore, use it. If not, > that description should be read as what people believe > of that Immortal, not the actual truth. Sollus > (Ixion), may not be the brother of Thanatos, but > people believe that he is. Yes. Usually the discrepancies may be related to different perceptions of the same individual by different cultures. Bye, GP ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 17:01:51 -0400 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: Blackmoor Immortals I seem to recall a passage somewhere that said Immortals who attain 36th level can reincarnate as mortals and go through the cycle again possibly becoming Immortal once more. I'm pretty certain that was Gold Box Immortal= s though. Does anything say that this cannot still happen? Perhaps the various proteges of the immortal reincarnates assume parts of the transcended immortal's portfolio. Or not. Is it possible to forcibly reincarnate an immortal? Is that what happened with Rad? (Haven't read Mark of Amber yet.) On 22/03/06, Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > > Havard Faanes ha scritto: > > Suggestion: They have either faded as a result of the > > GRoF, have left Mystara after this, or are still > > working in the shadows, though with a considerably > > reduced role (enough so that they would not be > > mentioned in WotI). I prefer this last option since > > that means they can still be used as patrons of minor > > cults, or perhaps even bigger cults in more remote > > parts of the world without directly influencing major > > Mystaran events/cultures at this time. > ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 14:03:42 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Blackmoor Immortals Steven Carter wrote: >I seem to recall a passage somewhere that said Immortals who attain 36th > level can reincarnate as mortals and go through the cycle again possibly > becoming Immortal once more. I'm pretty certain that was Gold Box Immortals >though. It does come from the Gold Box. I don't recall specifics, but the GB mentions that there are stories of Immortals who, upon attaining 36th level as Immortals, reincarnated themselves as mortals, and worked their way back to Immortality. It goes on to say that, of these, one or two even worked their way back through the ranks to 36th level Hierarchs, and were then set upon by hordes of Blackballs, never to be heard from again. It is not known (by the Immortals) if they were slain or elevated in status, but in metagame text it says that they became Old Ones, and that that is the true end of the game. >Does anything say that this cannot still happen? I don't recall reading anything about doing it in the WotI set, but I don't see any reason why it couldn't happen- voluntarily relinquishing one's Immortality and becoming mortal again. >Is it possible to forcibly reincarnate an immortal? Is that what happened > with Rad? (Haven't read Mark of Amber yet.) I'd think it would take something on an Old One's level to do this, if it could be done at all. As for Rad, what happens to him depends on how the adventurers deal with the events of the module. If they succeed at certain things, he might return at his original Immortal power levels; if they only succeed partially, he will return as a mortal; I forget what happens if they fail completely. In any case, it isn't exactly clear the nature of his return- the Old Ones sent him to another realm as a punishment/lesson, and it is the adventurers who are (essentially) his instructors. If he returns as a mortal, it could be considered voluntary, or as him being stripped of his powers- it is vague enough that it can't be certain either way. (As an aside, I have to say, while when I first read WotI and saw the Old One at the end I was like "Cool!", in retrospect I really dislike the heavy handedness of it all. I prefer to think the Old Ones wouldn't get involved in things like that, or that they wouldn't solely punish Rad if they did- Ixion was just as much of an instigator.) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.pandius.com To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 21 Mar 2006 to 22 Mar 2006 (#2006-56) ***************************************************************